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Author Topic: "Download pack" = massive discounts & 1 royalty credit per sale. Bad news.  (Read 9920 times)

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« on: July 07, 2014, 14:00 »
+15
Edited to summarize what we now know about Download Packs:

Bulk credit-like packs but a buyer gets any image (up to XXL) or EPS (no EVO, audio or video) for max $1.39 and minimum 82.2 cents (USD prices) - i.e. massively cheaper than buying credits.

The contributor gets one royalty credit (instead of 6 or 10 for XXL or EPS; think of what that will do for your future royalty level) and their percentage of the above price. There is a one month pack or one year - so expiration is the same as credits (12 months).

After much prodding, 123rf finally provided the details in this post:

http://www.microstockgroup.com/123royaltyfree-com/royalties-on-'download-pack'-aren't-at-your-level/msg387443/#msg387443

This is my original post:

123rf has a Download Pack option - not sure when it first started, but it currently says "limited time offer"

http://www.123rf.com/islogin_globalv10.2.php

And here's the image in case it isn't the same everywhere or goes away



I noticed this because I had contacted support about a subscription download that wasn't showing the right amount. I get 45% royalties, so my subs downloads should be 32.4 cents. I check at the beginning of the month because in the past they have paid out at the wrong rate for a while. This sub was at 26.7 cents - not the base rate of 21.6 cent I've seen before.

A day or so later the amount went up to 40.1 cents so I replied to support that the number had changed but it still wasn't correct - now it was too high. I received a reply this morning that it was correct because the "subscription" was from a download pack and that was the rate.

I'm not sure what to think of this. At $1.39 per image (if they buy for a month and get 100 images), my 40.1 cents is 28.7%, quite a bit shy of my 45% royalty. As this is a non-subscription subscription (the numbers roll over if you renew in 30 days) that seems very much like the scams we've seen with DP and Fotolia's Dollar Photo Club.

If someone buys the  1200 images for a year I get 34.6% - better, but still shy of 45%

I didn't see any e-mail to contributors about this and honestly I don't see why it's OK to slightly hike the subscription payout on a credit pack instead of paying the agreed upon rate (45% in my case) - 62.6 cents or 52.1 cents, depending on the package.

ETA: Is the unlimited print run new? I hadn't realized they had no limit on print runs....
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 10:28 by Jo Ann Snover »


« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2014, 18:03 »
+2
I'd love to see 123 come in here and provide some clarification. Their silence, knowing they follow these forums, is telling.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 06:23 by Mantis »

« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2014, 12:53 »
+16
I sent a note to support about this, saying they need to fix this and pay me the 45% I'm owed on these sales, and that they can't start calling things subscriptions when they aren't just to cut payments to us.

I'll post here when I get an answer.

« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2014, 13:04 »
+10
It's beginning to feel like the agencies are colluding to shift the definition of 'subscriptions' in their favour.....

« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2014, 13:18 »
+7
What's weird about this one is they're not even trying to call it a subscription. And although it's not as bad as what others are offering, the idea that they can have a "pack" product and call it exactly that and yet still just pay out subscription royalties is disturbing.

« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2014, 14:05 »
+2
What's weird about this one is they're not even trying to call it a subscription. And although it's not as bad as what others are offering, the idea that they can have a "pack" product and call it exactly that and yet still just pay out subscription royalties is disturbing.

Furthering your point, how long have they been doing this, how many other "packs" have they offered like this over the years that were essentially priced the same way but the commission scheme wasn't caught? I mean, Joanne had to check just because something didn't see right, and low and behold, they are pulling the same thing as the other two turds in a toilet.

« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2014, 12:04 »
+4
I don't yet have an answer from support, but I had a download this morning in the subscription column with a royalty of 52.2 cents.

At a guess, I'd say this might be for the $1.39 sale (100 images a month for $139) and perhaps the 40.1 cents from July 3 was the volume pack (1200 images a year for $1390)

Even if this is right, that's still 37.5% and 34.6%, not the 45% I should be receiving.

« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2014, 12:15 »
+2
I don't yet have an answer from support, but I had a download this morning in the subscription column with a royalty of 52.2 cents.

At a guess, I'd say this might be for the $1.39 sale (100 images a month for $139) and perhaps the 40.1 cents from July 3 was the volume pack (1200 images a year for $1390)

Even if this is right, that's still 37.5% and 34.6%, not the 45% I should be receiving.

Please keep us posted, Jo Ann. How they respond is important. My guess is that they are trying to craft a response that is believable.


« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2014, 09:08 »
+24
This doesn't explain anything!  None of those numbers match the two amounts I have received

I did write already

These payouts are a total ripoff and not at the percentages shown given the price the buyer pays

ETA: some comparisons of prices and royalties

These download packs include images up to XXL (normally 6 credits) and EPS (10 credits).

At the lowest rates for credit sales  (our past guarantee was that 40 cents per credit was the lowest for royalty calculations) at 45% (level 4) that would mean:

$1.08 royalty for XXL and $1.80 for EPS

Using the pricing available on the site, if I were to buy 7200 credits (enough to buy 1200 XXL images) I'd pay $5,140.80, or 71 cents a credit. That would mean royalties of

$1.92 for XXL and $3.19 for EPS

Of course I don't know why I'd buy 7200 credits when I can buy a download pack for $1,390 - why pay over 3.6 times as much? The one year expiration is the same for both.

Even if I received 45% of what the buyer paid for these packs, I'd get 62.5 cents for the monthly pack and 52.1 cents for the annual pack - not 37 cents

I have so far see two of these sales. I'm going to monitor them because it seems to me that the pricing is attractive and the cut in royalties - once again; I'm not forgetting the cut from 50% to 45% - is an utterly unjustifiable action.

I will consider pulling my portfolio over this - good income or no (and 123rf is a good earner). I am so sick of scummy, underhanded tactics where agencies just take more for themselves without (a) telling us up front and (b) giving us anything in return (those doubled sales promises from the time of the introduction of the rolling 12 month royalty rate scheme ring rather hollow).
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 12:31 by Jo Ann Snover »

« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2014, 09:23 »
+6
This doesn't explain anything!  None of those numbers match the two amounts I have received

I did write already

These payouts are a total ripoff and not at the percentages shown given the price the buyer pays

Either there is a reporting bug or they are doing the same thing as Fotolia and Depositphotos. I am at 45% as well and this just doesn't make sense to me.

« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2014, 22:50 »
+14
I just checked the rest of today's downloads and I have a third new number for a "subscription" download:

0.374

That's not my regular subscription (45%) royalty of 0.324, or the number Anglee posted, or the number I got on July 3 that they corrected, or the 0.522 from a sub on July 9th!

It's also not 45% of any of the posted download pack prices. What on earth is going on with these "subscription" amounts?

Support can't or won't reply to me (I haven't received anything since the explanation that 0.401 was the correct sub royalty for a download pack).

We need to be paid the earned percentage on these sales and know just how low they're discounting - i.e. does it go lower than one year for 1200 downloads at $1,390?

The fact that they corrected the first one that I happened to notice, plus the conflicting information given so far does not fill me with confidence.

These are my files and I believe I have a right to know how and for how much they are being sold.
 

« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2014, 00:37 »
+3
Hiya,

Please find the commission level of each download pack as below:

Contributors LevelCommission LevelEarnings/Download
130.00%$0.25
235.00%$0.29
340.00%$0.33
445.00%$0.37
550.00%$0.41
652.00%$0.43
754.00%$0.44
856.00%$0.46
958.00%$0.47
1060.00%$0.49

Please email to submission@123rf.com if got any download pack inquiries


Cheers,
Anglee

How did 123RF come up with those numbers?

If you are going to pretend that they are subscriptions then you need to pay a higher percentage than the per image cost based on the fact that not all subscription downloads are realized. If all dl are realized then they are not subs, but you still need to pay the listed percentages of the per image cost.

I fear 123RF are going on double secret probation. The percent cut without the promised doubling of sales was bad enough.

Thanks for keeping an eye on these things Jo Ann. All I have had is my regular low low sub sales there so far.

MxR

« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2014, 03:36 »
+2
Hiya,

Please find the commission level of each download pack as below:

Contributors LevelCommission LevelEarnings/Download
130.00%$0.25
235.00%$0.29
340.00%$0.33
445.00%$0.37
550.00%$0.41
652.00%$0.43
754.00%$0.44
856.00%$0.46
958.00%$0.47
1060.00%$0.49

Please email to submission@123rf.com if got any download pack inquiries


Cheers,
Anglee

hey!!!!

Levels are incorrect!!

First level is 0,21 subs (worst in market)...

PZF

« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2014, 07:06 »
+1
And I'm level 3 and get just 28c for a sub.
Something's wrong here.....have emailed them.

« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2014, 08:42 »
+3
I received a useful reply from support. I've asked if I can list it here

The amounts are paid as a percentage at your level. The variations are because of different currencies and different discounts (bigger than shown on the web site)

It's a bundle that results in very cheap images, but only with very large volume commitments

« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2014, 09:29 »
0
I'm level 4 and I get 32 cents for a sub. Those levels aren't correct.

« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2014, 12:27 »
+4
I received a useful reply from support. I've asked if I can list it here

The amounts are paid as a percentage at your level. The variations are because of different currencies and different discounts (bigger than shown on the web site)

It's a bundle that results in very cheap images, but only with very large volume commitments

Not that 123 is doing this, but who knows......at Dollar Photo Club (FOTOLIA) they claimed the same thing, but in fact I qualified as a large customer...me, one single person who no longer buys images. Just sayin.

« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2014, 01:54 »
-3
Hiya,

Download pack is introduced by 123RF as another type of subscription.  The download pack is offered in all different currencies and additional discounts depending on situation. Thus, it is NOT a flat rate in contributor earnings. The difference between "Subscription Plan" and "Download Pack" is as below:

  • Subscription plan = Daily Limit
  • Download Pack = Total Download Limit

The table that posted earlier showed the Lowest Earnings/Download of Download Pack that contributors received on each level. In short, Download Pack will still be recorded under subscription with a different payout price; slightly higher compare to the traditional subscription plan. You may refer to the table below:

   Contributors Level      Commission Level      Earnings/Download (Subscription Plan)      Earnings/Download (Download Pack)   
   1      30.00%      $0.216      $0.25 - $0.46   
   2      35.00%      $0.252      $0.29 - $0.53   
   3      40.00%      $0.288      $0.33 - $0.61   
   4      45.00%      $0.324      $0.37 - $0.69   
   5      50.00%      $0.360      $0.41 - $0.76   
   6      52.00%      $0.374      $0.43 - $0.79   
   7      54.00%      $0.389      $0.44 - $0.82   
   8      56.00%      $0.403      $0.46 - $0.85   
   9      58.00%      $0.418      $0.47 - $0.88   
   10      60.00%      $0.432      $0.49 - $0.91   

Hope this explanation could help in clearing your misunderstanding and confusion on our newly launched download pack.


Thanks,
Anglee

« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2014, 02:48 »
+16
In other words, just another scheme to sell images as cheap as possible.

Why don't you ever come up with ideas how to sell for higher prices and pay more to your contributors?

« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2014, 03:14 »
+10
  • Subscription plan = Daily Limit
  • Download Pack = Total Download Limit

In other words another attempt to disguise a credit package as a "subscription" in order to pay us a lower royalty. Is it a coincidence that I see a drastic reduction in my "credit sales" in favor of "subscription" sales?

MxR

« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2014, 05:02 »
+10
Hiya,

Download pack is introduced by 123RF as another type of subscription.  The download pack is offered in all different currencies and additional discounts depending on situation. Thus, it is NOT a flat rate in contributor earnings. The difference between "Subscription Plan" and "Download Pack" is as below:

  • Subscription plan = Daily Limit
  • Download Pack = Total Download Limit

The table that posted earlier showed the Lowest Earnings/Download of Download Pack that contributors received on each level. In short, Download Pack will still be recorded under subscription with a different payout price; slightly higher compare to the traditional subscription plan. You may refer to the table below:

   Contributors Level      Commission Level      Earnings/Download (Subscription Plan)      Earnings/Download (Download Pack)   
   1      30.00%      $0.216      $0.25 - $0.46   
   2      35.00%      $0.252      $0.29 - $0.53   
   3      40.00%      $0.288      $0.33 - $0.61   
   4      45.00%      $0.324      $0.37 - $0.69   
   5      50.00%      $0.360      $0.41 - $0.76   
   6      52.00%      $0.374      $0.43 - $0.79   
   7      54.00%      $0.389      $0.44 - $0.82   
   8      56.00%      $0.403      $0.46 - $0.85   
   9      58.00%      $0.418      $0.47 - $0.88   
   10      60.00%      $0.432      $0.49 - $0.91   

Hope this explanation could help in clearing your misunderstanding and confusion on our newly launched download pack.


Thanks,
Anglee

and... we are agree with this? new terms and conditions?

Dollar Photo Club- Out
Deposit Photos- Out
123RF- ... first RC "imposible" earning (and you are NOT a big earner like Istock) and now these... future: Out

« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2014, 05:11 »
+7
Oh dear, I thought things were bad at 123RF with the introduction of their RC system and low, low subs pricing. The promise of doubled downloads / income never materialised (anyone surprised?). Now they introduce subscription priced credit packs. *sighs*

« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2014, 07:17 »
+1
Oh dear, I thought things were bad at 123RF with the introduction of their RC system and low, low subs pricing. The promise of doubled downloads / income never materialised (anyone surprised?). Now they introduce subscription priced credit packs. *sighs*

Yes m-gue I believe this is the new norm. Reversing it will be next to impossible as we do not have the influence to change policy. Yes we own the images, but 10 of us pulling our ports won't cut the mustard. We need 50-75% of all contributors to pull their ports and that simply won't happen.  It's irreversible in my mind.

« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2014, 08:14 »
+13
Download pack is introduced by 123RF as another type of subscription.  The download pack is offered in all different currencies and additional discounts depending on situation. Thus, it is NOT a flat rate in contributor earnings. The difference between "Subscription Plan" and "Download Pack" is as below...

Thanks for popping in to discuss this, Anglee.

So this is a sort of variable subscription royalty system under the Download Pack product, right? That's kind of unusual, and I hope you can appreciate how disturbing this is. It is already a bit difficult to accept these new products that are very loosely defined as subscription products even when they don't even bear the name "subscription" in the title. Now we're adding in the variable subscription royalty, in which it seems that the contributor eats the cost of a discount or currency exchange.

I'm disappointed to hear that 123RF is joining this trend of finding new and creative ways to pay contributors less. I sincerely hope the company will reconsider going in this direction.


 

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