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Author Topic: unsuitable camera?  (Read 9149 times)

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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2010, 16:08 »
0
Unsuitable camera or unsuitable image? If the light is optimal the pic will be better, no matter the camera (duh). If you know your camera the pic will be better (duh). Many a photog wannabe starting out has learned about light and lenses only because they had a point and shoot. The pics didn't turn out well so they had to figure out why. They usually end up buying a different camera. Lesson learned. In the old days you could rescue a (somewhat) poor image in the darkroom, today it's Photoshop. As a buyer I don't care what camera took the pic. If it suits my needs I buy it. Sometimes after I've downloaded a photo I'm disappointed in it's technical merits. But, bottom line, the client doesn't look at the same things I do, pin-sharp clarity and amount of noise are often not factors to the client if the image suits the need.


Uncle Pete

  • Evidence please...

« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2010, 22:06 »
0
Unsuitable camera or unsuitable image? If the light is optimal the pic will be better, no matter the camera (duh). If you know your camera the pic will be better (duh). Many a photog wannabe starting out has learned about light and lenses only because they had a point and shoot. The pics didn't turn out well so they had to figure out why. They usually end up buying a different camera. Lesson learned. In the old days you could rescue a (somewhat) poor image in the darkroom, today it's Photoshop. As a buyer I don't care what camera took the pic. If it suits my needs I buy it. Sometimes after I've downloaded a photo I'm disappointed in it's technical merits. But, bottom line, the client doesn't look at the same things I do, pin-sharp clarity and amount of noise are often not factors to the client if the image suits the need.

I don't know if I should continue with the debate when it's foolish. Unsuitable cameras produce unsuitable images.

So you are saying that Ansel Adams could have used a Brownie Folding 2 1/4 instead of an 8 x 10 sheet film camera, if the light was the same, as long as he knew his camera?  ???

8 megapixels from a DSLR are not the same as 8 megapixels from a P&S. The pixels are a different size. The lenses are different. The sensor may be designed with a different mask.

The part about the buyer is true. We are more critical most of the time in an effort to insure satisfied customers. You did hit another factor. Image quality vs the need for a particular image. In any case if there's only one shot, it will do, but if there's a choice, the higher quality image will win.

PaulieWalnuts

  • You talkin' to me?
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2010, 22:48 »
0

I don't know if I should continue with the debate when it's foolish. Unsuitable cameras produce unsuitable images.

You're on the right track.

Unsuitable cameras produce unsuitable images.

Suitable cameras have the potential to produce suitable images. Somewhere along the way the operator, conditions, or post processing produce unsuitable images.

If the content was the only thing that mattered, most news images would be shot with camera phones.

Uncle Pete

  • Evidence please...

« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2010, 00:24 »
0
Yes I did leave out the other side of that equation. The camera doesn't automatically make for good images, in the end that's the responsibility of the photographer. :D



I don't know if I should continue with the debate when it's foolish. Unsuitable cameras produce unsuitable images.

You're on the right track.

Unsuitable cameras produce unsuitable images.

Suitable cameras have the potential to produce suitable images. Somewhere along the way the operator, conditions, or post processing produce unsuitable images.

If the content was the only thing that mattered, most news images would be shot with camera phones.

« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2010, 01:36 »
0
Xalanx & RacePhoto: Guys, you obviously suffer "fullframe" disease - buy the most pricy Canon/Nikon or even better medium format and let us others happy with cheaper stuff. Image quality matters, not camera.

I will simply strip exif and thats it, editor can judge just the image quality and who cares about some camera lists?

« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2010, 03:32 »
0
I have images that have sold on alamy from a 5mp p&s, and plenty of images on alamy and micros that are from the 6mp pentaxs (which arent on either list).
Some of favourite shots where taken with my early 1, 1.3, and 3mp p&s

But I know the images I put on now taken with 24mp dslr (and sometimes even downsized) are on technical merits (could still be crap :)) a hell of a lot better than the upsized 6mp that I used to do a few years back.

I can understand where they are coming from, they have to justify the extra cost from micro and really I bought my daughter a near new sony a230 and 2 lenses for $400. Not a lot of outlay to begin competing professionally (she's building her collection :)).   

Xalanx

« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2010, 07:46 »
0
Xalanx & RacePhoto: Guys, you obviously suffer "fullframe" disease - buy the most pricy Canon/Nikon or even better medium format and let us others happy with cheaper stuff. Image quality matters, not camera.

I don't recall me or RacePhoto recommending to buy full frame DSLRs. I said DSLR, not full frame - and that includes even poor little Oly ;)

« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2010, 08:29 »
0
Unsuitable cameras produce unsuitable images.

But even more important: Unsuitable photographers produce unsuitable images.  ;D

-Larry

« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2010, 13:03 »
0
If I am not mistaken, the reason why certain DSLR are unsuitable is merely that in order to upsize to 48MB you need to start with a very good original in camera.
Sure, many good Photoshop experts are able to upsize from 7MP camera , some even claim from 4MP.
I am not sure if this is true. I don't know.
But I know that with a low MP camera you have to really work a lot to get the image suitable for Alamy.
It's not to discriminate from one camera to another. It's just being realistic.
I have work with Alamy approved with lower MP cameras but I really gave up and bought a top of the line pro DSLR. This sure reduce your post production time. Many times, you just upside a couple MPs
and there you have it.

Uncle Pete

  • Evidence please...

« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2010, 14:33 »
0
Xalanx & RacePhoto: Guys, you obviously suffer "fullframe" disease - buy the most pricy Canon/Nikon or even better medium format and let us others happy with cheaper stuff. Image quality matters, not camera.

I will simply strip exif and thats it, editor can judge just the image quality and who cares about some camera lists?


True, image quality matters, but that's not the point of the list. The cameras on the list are not likely to produce suitable images, and in most cases, for most people, will not. Alamy has produced the list to help people understand that they shouldn't waste their time submitting images from unsuitable cameras. The list is in response to people who wanted something more specific than the guidelines suggested. Now there's a list and some people want to debate that their camera shouldn't be on it.  ???

Alamy QC doesn't want to waste time and money with batches and batches of failures. Same reason why, one fail all fail, is their policy. Same reason why Alamy came up with the vacation for repeated failures, upload ban if it continues.

I might point out that it's not a game to see what someone can sneak past the reviewers. The agency is asking for a certain quality for images and setting their required standards. The customers are also expecting the images to be up to the agency standards.

I wouldn't call a 20-D and 40-D Fullframe Disease.  :) 

What started this thread was the allegation that Alamy looked at EXIF data and refused the images based on that. On the Alamy forum a couple of people have hypothesized that computers reviewed their images, not humans.  :o  While either could be true, neither of these has been proven to be fact. Evidence is that some members have recently uploaded images made with cameras from the unsuitable camera list and they have passed. Like all other fine experiments, one person wrote to Alamy to point this out and the images were promptly removed with a warning, don't do it again.

I don't have the 10-D (not on either list for some reason?) or G6 anymore to do some tests with stitched images. But I did have an image from the G6 accepted last year! Well lets say 29 images, all stitched into one, cropped and downsized to 48.2MB. ;) If there was some EXIF flag, that one would have been waving in bright red.

Flagging QC to refuse for EXIF camera models may be something new?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 15:20 by RacePhoto »

« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2010, 19:54 »
0
Race, That one with stitching is fine... Your image lost imperfections when you downsampled it. Why not? It is emulation of middle frame sensor and it is quality at the end!

But, upsizing low resolution image full of different crappy noise is no-go... It is visible.

I had rejection yesterday due to crappy lens I used few Years ago on Sony Al100 shooting some sheeps ;-)

When I looked at image it really was crappy... Well, No more uploading images shot with that crappy lens. And fortunately I uploaded all Alpha100 images I wanted to have online... Only what I will do is to upload again that ones rejected from last batch which are good enough to pass QC.

Point with Alamy is that they don't need amateurs and that they need photographers. If you are photographer then you should know quality needed if you can read QC standards. Same rules are current on Corbis and GI also... If you are learner, then learn through Social photo sites and microstock. If you wish to earn money as photographer, first of all is that you must be photographer.

End of story.

[ADDED:] OP, You are not photographer if you have camera. You are then only guy with camera. So, first become a photographer and then buy adequate tool to help you finish your job. Whining about past won't help you! Tool is what helps you earn money - so find some nice camera and do your job. Soon there will be minimum 15Mpix suitable DSLR cameras only! BTW, after you put 1000 or more images online on microstock you will know what I think about being photographer and that images you shot for microstock which don't sell there are for Macrostock... That is how it is today... Tomorrow - no one can tell!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 20:10 by Albert Martin »

« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2010, 22:16 »
0
Xalanx & RacePhoto: Guys, you obviously suffer "fullframe" disease - buy the most pricy Canon/Nikon or even better medium format and let us others happy with cheaper stuff. Image quality matters, not camera.

I will simply strip exif and thats it, editor can judge just the image quality and who cares about some camera lists?


True, image quality matters, but that's not the point of the list. The cameras on the list are not likely to produce suitable images, and in most cases, for most people, will not. Alamy has produced the list to help people understand that they shouldn't waste their time submitting images from unsuitable cameras. The list is in response to people who wanted something more specific than the guidelines suggested. Now there's a list and some people want to debate that their camera shouldn't be on it.  ???

Alamy QC doesn't want to waste time and money with batches and batches of failures. Same reason why, one fail all fail, is their policy. Same reason why Alamy came up with the vacation for repeated failures, upload ban if it continues.

I might point out that it's not a game to see what someone can sneak past the reviewers. The agency is asking for a certain quality for images and setting their required standards. The customers are also expecting the images to be up to the agency standards.

I wouldn't call a 20-D and 40-D Fullframe Disease.  :) 

What started this thread was the allegation that Alamy looked at EXIF data and refused the images based on that. On the Alamy forum a couple of people have hypothesized that computers reviewed their images, not humans.  :o  While either could be true, neither of these has been proven to be fact. Evidence is that some members have recently uploaded images made with cameras from the unsuitable camera list and they have passed. Like all other fine experiments, one person wrote to Alamy to point this out and the images were promptly removed with a warning, don't do it again.

I don't have the 10-D (not on either list for some reason?) or G6 anymore to do some tests with stitched images. But I did have an image from the G6 accepted last year! Well lets say 29 images, all stitched into one, cropped and downsized to 48.2MB. ;) If there was some EXIF flag, that one would have been waving in bright red.

Flagging QC to refuse for EXIF camera models may be something new?


well said Racephoto. (nice fly... by the way )...

another alternative would be to get this
http://www.pentax.jp/english/news/2010/201008.html
and you won't need to worry about upsizing,
instead you need to downsize from the 40MP.
imagine what the image will look like.

cascoly

  • Photography, travel & online games at cascoly.com

« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2010, 12:37 »
0
You'll never make saleable images with a P&S in bad or low light conditions, think about inside airplanes,
trains, waiting rooms, the only places where i shoot with P&S but it's just for fun, i never made crisp and sharp
images in these places, even using flash.

they're only good outdoor in optimal conditions but then why not using a DSLR ?

just because you havent done it doesnt mean it cant be done!! my sony hx1 images sell on all the sites - in fact low light is one of the better aspects of the camera! 

and as previous poster mentioned, size DOES matter - i have a digital rebel too, but it's not handy for skiing and other activities.  if you always have a tripod and studio lighting, you might have a point, but even there, the newer cameras will do well too

s

macrosaur

    This user is banned.
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2010, 18:35 »
0
the only issue is Alamy outsourcing to INDIA, who knows what's "sharp" for those guys

i never had problems uploading old 6MP stuff until november, now they reject everything and i wasted a lot of time
editing that crap for nothing.

ironically the same rejected images have been all accepted by iStock so they can't be so bad considering their snotty QC...

whenever i upload 18MP files they get accepted by alamy in 24hrs, i guess they don't even look at them or use a specific automated software for this.

cascoly

  • Photography, travel & online games at cascoly.com

« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2010, 01:48 »
0
If I am not mistaken, the reason why certain DSLR are unsuitable is merely that in order to upsize to 48MB you need to start with a very good original in camera.
Sure, many good Photoshop experts are able to upsize from 7MP camera , some even claim from 4MP.
I am not sure if this is true. I don't know.
But I know that with a low MP camera you have to really work a lot to get the image suitable for Alamy.
It's not to discriminate from one camera to another. It's just being realistic.
I have work with Alamy approved with lower MP cameras but I really gave up and bought a top of the line pro DSLR. This sure reduce your post production time. Many times, you just upside a couple MPs
and there you have it.


true, however, they also automatically reject panoramas which are taken with those cameras, even though the image is DOWNSIZED to make it 48MP.   i have no problem with them requiring  whatever image qualkity they wish, but they're silly to thi nk it cANT  be done  - ultimately it's their game tho.

Uncle Pete

  • Evidence please...

« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2010, 02:40 »
0
If I am not mistaken, the reason why certain DSLR are unsuitable is merely that in order to upsize to 48MB you need to start with a very good original in camera.
Sure, many good Photoshop experts are able to upsize from 7MP camera , some even claim from 4MP.
I am not sure if this is true. I don't know.
But I know that with a low MP camera you have to really work a lot to get the image suitable for Alamy.
It's not to discriminate from one camera to another. It's just being realistic.
I have work with Alamy approved with lower MP cameras but I really gave up and bought a top of the line pro DSLR. This sure reduce your post production time. Many times, you just upside a couple MPs
and there you have it.

true, however, they also automatically reject panoramas which are taken with those cameras, even though the image is DOWNSIZED to make it 48MP.   i have no problem with them requiring  whatever image qualkity they wish, but they're silly to thi nk it cANT  be done  - ultimately it's their game tho.

What was the rejection reason, exactly? "Unsuitable Camera" or "Soft or Lacking Definition" or something else? Have you tried sending in the automatic rejection image, by itself, with the camera data removed, to prove it's the camera name and not the image? How many photos in the batch?

Reason I ask is I have had G6 images, panoramas, stitched, accepted, after the list was posted. I may do one with the A590IS pocket camera to test the rejection for EXIF data theory. Or would a A400 prove the question?  :)

cascoly

  • Photography, travel & online games at cascoly.com

« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2010, 19:01 »
0


true, however, they also automatically reject panoramas which are taken with those cameras, even though the image is DOWNSIZED to make it 48MP.   i have no problem with them requiring  whatever image qualkity they wish, but they're silly to thi nk it cANT  be done  - ultimately it's their game tho.

What was the rejection reason, exactly? "Unsuitable Camera" or "Soft or Lacking Definition" or something else? Have you tried sending in the automatic rejection image, by itself, with the camera data removed, to prove it's the camera name and not the image? How many photos in the batch?

Reason I ask is I have had G6 images, panoramas, stitched, accepted, after the list was posted. I may do one with the A590IS pocket camera to test the rejection for EXIF data theory. Or would a A400 prove the question?  :)

th it was for unsuitable camera - i havent taken the time to remove exif and submit 1 image - i havent made any sales on alamy to date, so there's little incentive to continue there; 

Uncle Pete

  • Evidence please...

« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2010, 00:23 »
0
Sales are an incentive unless you only shoot with one of the cameras on the Unsuitable list.

Say you have two sales a year on Alamy with 330 files and 140 sales a year on IS with 700 files. That would be about the same commission.

Trouble is someone who has 16 images of machu picchu on Alamy is competing against 4700 other images of the same subject. They would need to have something that stands out and is distinctive to make a sale.

Maybe not you, I don't know, but some people have the same RF images on microstock and Alamy and assume the buyers are too stupid to do a search to find out they can get the identical shot for $5-$15 instead of $200.  ::)  In other words, if someone has the same shots on 10 Micro sites as they do on Alamy, I wouldn't expect them to have many sales.

I've decided to divide them into Editorial on Alamy and RF on Micro. Others may have a different marketing strategy. Whatever works is the best answer. :D




true, however, they also automatically reject panoramas which are taken with those cameras, even though the image is DOWNSIZED to make it 48MP.   i have no problem with them requiring  whatever image qualkity they wish, but they're silly to thi nk it cANT  be done  - ultimately it's their game tho.

What was the rejection reason, exactly? "Unsuitable Camera" or "Soft or Lacking Definition" or something else? Have you tried sending in the automatic rejection image, by itself, with the camera data removed, to prove it's the camera name and not the image? How many photos in the batch?

Reason I ask is I have had G6 images, panoramas, stitched, accepted, after the list was posted. I may do one with the A590IS pocket camera to test the rejection for EXIF data theory. Or would a A400 prove the question?  :)

th it was for unsuitable camera - i havent taken the time to remove exif and submit 1 image - i havent made any sales on alamy to date, so there's little incentive to continue there;  
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 00:34 by RacePhoto »

cascoly

  • Photography, travel & online games at cascoly.com

« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2010, 19:12 »
0


Trouble is someone who has 16 images of machu picchu on Alamy is competing against 4700 other images of the same subject. They would need to have something that stands out and is distinctive to make a sale.

Maybe not you, I don't know, but some people have the same RF images on microstock and Alamy and assume the buyers are too stupid to do a search to find out they can get the identical shot for $5-$15 instead of $200.  ::)  In other words, if someone has the same shots on 10 Micro sites as they do on Alamy, I wouldn't expect them to have many sales.  


yes, that differnece in price is why i tried alamy in the first place, but i've understood from the start that it was an uphill battle for me to do much on alamy

for personal, physical reasons, the hx1 now produces better images for me than my dslr, and it has shown in sales on SS and DT.  so i'll just concentrate there, and let what's on alamy sit w/o upl'ing more
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 19:21 by cascoly »

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