it looks like the 5D is going to be split into two lines, the 5DX and the 5D mark III (says the rumors anyhow)..   The 5DX is rumored to be the high MP camera that everyone has be waiting for and the 5D mark III will follow the 1Dx convention with 22MP.

that's at least what the rumors say   A Chinese web store has a page for the two cameras with specs for both of them.. suggesting there may be truth to the rumor.  I can't imagine Canon not putting out a big MP camera after Nikon released the D800.

http://www.togtech.com/canon-5dx/

If this is true it would make sense and be a good move by Canon.

Now, I wonder how many of the current lenses I have will actually be usable on a 45MP camera.

Quote from: PaulieWalnuts on February 20, 2012, 08:53

If this is true it would make sense and be a good move by Canon.

Now, I wonder how many of the current lenses I have will actually be usable on a 45MP camera.

Only the very best primes and I'm not even sure about that (all 85+ mm L primes).

I'd go for the 22 mpix version if I wanted to buy the new model. AF is probably going to be better (I guess the approach for the 45 mpix is going to be that it's a studio camera, with emphasis on higher resolution), not to mention Hi-ISO performance and the fact that no MS site is paying extra for anything above 20 mpix.

"L" designation doesn't automatically mean better technical results. In most tests I've seen for full frame, the 85mm f/1.8 seems to generate better overall sharpness over the f/1.2. I just noticed the new 24-70mm is supposed to be over $2,000 so I'd bet this is probably one of the new lenses around a higher MP sensor.

Quote from: wut on February 20, 2012, 09:27

Quote from: PaulieWalnuts on February 20, 2012, 08:53

If this is true it would make sense and be a good move by Canon.

Now, I wonder how many of the current lenses I have will actually be usable on a 45MP camera.

Only the very best primes and I'm not even sure about that (all 85+ mm L primes).

I'd go for the 22 mpix version if I wanted to buy the new model. AF is probably going to be better (I guess the approach for the 45 mpix is going to be that it's a studio camera, with emphasis on higher resolution), not to mention Hi-ISO performance and the fact that no MS site is paying extra for anything above 20 mpix.

"L" designation doesn't automatically mean better technical results. In most tests I've seen for full frame, the 85mm f/1.8 seems to generate better overall sharpness over the f/1.2. I just noticed the new 24-70mm is supposed to be over $2,000 so I'd bet this is probably one of the new lenses around a higher MP sensor.

Indeed, especially when it comes to zooms. But the ones I mentioned are all superb, supertele lenses are insanely sharp and so are 85L, 135L, 200L (2.0 and 2.. You probably were looking at f8+ comparisons in the studio. It's stupid to even make such comparisons, since the L version is supposed to be used (wide) open, otherwise it makes no sense at all to pay more the 5x the price, it's also a lot heavier, bulkier and AF is slower as well (not suitable for most indoor sports). Smallest aperture value for 85L is f16, that tells a lot. 85L is a very specialized lens, with it's perfectly round aperture (at f1.2), super creamy bokeh. You really need to know what it's used for. I own a 85 1.8 lens that I use all the time for over 7 years and it's tack sharp even at f1.8. But 85L is of course even sharper at f1.8 and all the way up to f4 or so, at f5.6+ the 1.8 versions starts to gain on it. I used it for a week or so years ago. The best lens ever made IMO, it suits my needs and style perfectly. It's just too expensive. So it's only sensible to buy the L version if you use it often below f1.8, otherwise it just makes no sense, if you mostly shoot in the studio with standard apertures you're just throwing your money away and the results are not going to be impressive and you're better off with the f1.8 version

Quote from: wut on February 20, 2012, 09:27

I'd go for the 22 mpix version if I wanted to buy the new model. AF is probably going to be better (I guess the approach for the 45 mpix is going to be that it's a studio camera, with emphasis on higher resolution), not to mention Hi-ISO performance and the fact that no MS site is paying extra for anything above 20 mpix.

iStock pays extra for over 20mp (Agency files are 50 credits more for XXXL compared to XXL), the XXXL is around 21mp min.  With 22mp you have almost no room to crop an image and still get the largest size.

I meant XXXL, I have a 5D2 and super minimal crops are still "allowed" (or image rotations of 0,25 etc), so it's below 21 mpix, but it might be just a few hundred kpix

It doesn't matter that sites don't pay past XXXL, the benefit to having 45 megapixels is the ability to shoot at a higher ISO and then downsize to XXXL and get it approved, along with the ability to perform harsher post processing which can create noise and then downsize to bring back the quality and get it approved at XXXL. This is why I would be interested in such a high mp camera.

From the translation of that Chinese website, it appears that the 5D III has 19:00 focus points  , while the 5D X has 61. It also appears that the camera will have built-in flash.

45 MP for a full frame... they surely have got some new inventions regarding sensor development, to enter Hasselblad, Phase One and alikes territory with that resolution. I hope they'll include possibility to shoot raw in smaller sizes (like 20-something MP).

Quote from: contrastaddict on February 20, 2012, 12:04

It doesn't matter that sites don't pay past XXXL, the benefit to having 45 megapixels is the ability to shoot at a higher ISO and then downsize to XXXL and get it approved, along with the ability to perform harsher post processing which can create noise and then downsize to bring back the quality and get it approved at XXXL. This is why I would be interested in such a high mp camera.

This could be the biggest nonsense you've ever written . You're going to buy a camera, that crams double the number of mpix on a sensor of the same size, which leads to a lot worse Hi-ISO performance, then you'll add another step in your workflow, just to get the same (or worse) result you would get straight out the camera on the 22 mpix model. Of course you'll pay double the price, to have double the work. That's just brilliant!

Your ignoring the possibility of improved sensor technology / noise reduction. How long does it take to resize a photo. 5 seconds. Hardly doubling your work.

Quote from: qwerty on February 20, 2012, 14:32

Quote from: wut on February 20, 2012, 13:50

Quote from: contrastaddict on February 20, 2012, 12:04

It doesn't matter that sites don't pay past XXXL, the benefit to having 45 megapixels is the ability to shoot at a higher ISO and then downsize to XXXL and get it approved, along with the ability to perform harsher post processing which can create noise and then downsize to bring back the quality and get it approved at XXXL. This is why I would be interested in such a high mp camera.

This could be the biggest nonsense you've ever written . You're going to buy a camera, that crams double the number of mpix on a sensor of the same size, which leads to a lot worse Hi-ISO performance, then you'll add another step in your workflow, just to get the same (or worse) result you would get straight out the camera on the 22 mpix model. Of course you'll pay double the price, to have double the work. That's just brilliant!

Your ignoring the possibility of improved sensor technology / noise reduction. How long does it take to resize a photo. 5 seconds. Hardly doubling your work.

No, I'm not, cameras are going to be supposedly available at the same time (so the same technology). I didn't write it since I thought it was obvious

Both cameras will be released at the same time I understand that, I also understand that the 5DX will have better noise performance. But what you're missing is I'm not comparing the Mark III to the 5DX, why would I? I'm comparing it to my current studio camera which is a Mark II and I am going to assume it will have better sensor technology. So I can then take a RAW image at 45 megapixels at the same or higher ISO which I would on my Mark II and have way more freedom to post process it because of the sheer size of the image and then go ahead and downsize it to still XXXL size.

I see where your coming from where I might just be downsizing to the same quality that the 5DX would put out in the first place, but I'm banking on the noise performance of the Mark III to be decent enough at 100% to take advantage of those megapixels and downsize images. Downsizing has allowed me to get many images approved that wouldn't have stood a chance, it plays a big role in micro in my opinion. Especially when performing stronger edits when aiming for Vetta type images.

If the 5DX has that much better noise performance that downsizing from the Mark III will just equal the 5DX then yeah the downsizing would be pointless, but I don't think that's going to be the case. And again my original post was the advantages of what the Mark III would offer over my current setup.

Quote from: contrastaddict on February 20, 2012, 17:48

If the 5DX has that much better noise performance that downsizing from the Mark III will just equal the 5DX then yeah the downsizing would be pointless, but I don't think that's going to be the case

Believe me, it's going to be. I've the whole Nikon D3 range for sports, while the picture was really grainy at ISO 800 using D3x, unusable for anything but smaller prints and web usage, D3's (which is half a year older if I remember correctly) was at least as good at ISO 3200. D3s which was introduced a year later was equally good at ISO 4 or even 5k, but shots taken at ISO 800 were great, I'd say you'd have no problem getting most of them accepted at ms agencies (some darker areas could be problematic). The bottom line is, the lower res, slightly older sensor had a 2+ stop advantage over the hi res sensor. You won't achieve the same results by just splitting the resolution in half.

But since you now told you're updating 5D2, then yes, it might just be better than the mkII, if you'll downsize. I've heard D800 is not all that bad at HI-ISO. May I ask what you're shooting, I mean why do you even need good HI-ISO performance? I shoot lifestyle and I rarely go above ISO 200, usually I just stay at 100, wether I use strobes on location or just shoot outdoors using a single (although huge) reflector. I only needed good Hi-ISO performance twice, once for shooting sports and once because of heavy overcast when the reflector was useless

Good points, I haven't been lucky enough to shoot any of the higher end camera models and see their noise performance. I mostly shoot studio and lifestyle outdoors as well. I am usually around 100-200 as well, occasionally I'll get around 640 to 1200 in the magic hour. As I mentioned earlier, I think the main advantage I want is the ability to make harsher edits which create noise, fill light for example. Another big benefit I see from being able to downsize is focus, I shoot quite a bit between 1.4 and 2.0 and its hard to land good focus that shallow. Being able to downsize with bicubic sharper has saved me quite a few times.

If the 5DX ends up being incredibly better of the Mark III in the noise department I may just spring for it instead if downsizing only brings me to the same level of quality. But I still think I'm going to want the huge resolution to be able to push the editing limits and still get photos accepted.

the rumor about the split of 5d line and the specs got a bit busted

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=3494.0

This struck me as nonsense from the start. Canon aren't going to have their flagship DSLR with half the Mp of their own lower-end model. If they had developed a super new sensor then it would be going on their top-of-the-range model first.

Why would they bring out the 1Dx, believing there was little demand for more Mp, only to then provide for that lack of demand with another camera a couple of months later? It makes no sense at all.

So, still no official answer on D8000 from Canon, ha?

Quote from: Tabimura on February 21, 2012, 02:26

I see the 1Dx as the successor of 1D IV, not of the 1Ds. It's not a studio camera, and I think Canon have to release a many-megapixel full frame aimed at studio (and landscape) shooters. The sensible choice would be to make a 5D "X" or whatever it's called, because it won't be so expensive like 1Ds series was. If it's for studio and landscapes, it won't need several features that 1D X has, like superfast AF, 12 fps, extremely rugged, able to withstand the most harsh weather conditions, etc. And then they can make this high MP version cheaper.

Why do you 'see' that? This is Canon's own press release announcing the 1Dx;

"LAKE SUCCESS, N.Y., October 18, 2011 � Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging, is proud to introduce a completely revolutionized EOS-1D series camera, the Canon EOS-1D X Digital SLR camera.* As the new leader in Canon�s arsenal of professional DSLRs, the EOS-1D X will be a high-speed multimedia juggernaut replacing both the EOS-1Ds Mark III and EOS-1D Mark IV models in Canon�s lineup."

If you're sitting there awaiting a new 5D with more Mp's than the 1Dx then I think you'll be waiting a long time. I'd love you to be right though as I was very disappointed with the 1Dx's specification.

I am amazed to find myself with a main DLSR body that is now over 4 years old, has undertaken about 200K shutter operations, is no longer available to buy and nothing better is yet on the shelves.

I missed the official announcement, so you're right on the actual facts. I was talking more in the terms of high-megapixel full frame price point. 1Ds was good as studio camera but very expensive with lots of unnecessary features for studio shooters. As things move forward, I don't think Canon can afford to leave the older 5D2 as the highest MP camera in their lineup. Nikon already made the move and Canon NEEDS to do the same with something aimed at studio photogs.
Nothing on the shelf for now, but I believe we'll see something new in the near future.

I am fairly certain they will be announcing a high MP camera before the end of March, they have to answer the D800. Whether they split it into two lines with the 5DX as well who knows, but all the rumors are pointing to a high MP camera.

Didn't a Canon exec recently say they didn't think there was that great of a market for such a high MP camera, and if they found differently they would produce one then?

Quote from: contrastaddict on February 21, 2012, 14:03

I am fairly certain they will be announcing a high MP camera before the end of March, they have to answer the D800. Whether they split it into two lines with the 5DX as well who knows, but all the rumors are pointing to a high MP camera.

The majority of the rumors I've read point to 22mp.  Where are the ones that point to a high MP camera?

Missed the busted post from CR about the 45 mp camera, still the 5d has always been about high MP. I don't see them abandoning that, especially with the D800 out now. I guess time will tell, I wish they would make an announcement already!

Quote from: leaf on February 21, 2012, 14:16

Quote from: contrastaddict on February 21, 2012, 14:03

I am fairly certain they will be announcing a high MP camera before the end of March, they have to answer the D800. Whether they split it into two lines with the 5DX as well who knows, but all the rumors are pointing to a high MP camera.

The majority of the rumors I've read point to 22mp.  Where are the ones that point to a high MP camera?

Hi there!   Just rumours, nothing but rumours!  the entire DPR-forum is full of it. My Canon rep, tells me there will be an updated 5dM2,  thats just about it. Nikon, Canon, etc, dont give a  about the micro market, its small fry, compared to the consumer market.
The majority of micro shooters still dont need anything bigger then a 12 MP cam and if you stick a 45MP cam in their hands, they wouldnt know what to do with it.

For commissioned studio work, etc, I use an HD4 with the hioghest possible MP backs, along with this you have to invest in softwares for about 8 grand, computer upgrades for 5 grand. Majority of people dont even think of that.

Just curious, rent or own ?

^^ I agree but tax law are different from country to country.  Here camera EQ is deductable over 8 years! (linear curve).
Respect on the H4d (60mp version?), my partner drools over that one

Canon Rumors is now saying there will be an announcement on 2/27 or 2/28 and they seem pretty confident these are the specs.

�   22mp
�   61pt AF
�   100% VF
�   3.2″ LCD
�   Dual CF/SD Card Slots
�   Price: Around $3500 USD
�   Announcement on February 27 or 28, 2012 (Depending where you are on earth)

This just doesn't make sense. Unless there's some spectacular feature Canon is keeping secret this is pretty disappointing. A focus upgrade and several minor enhancements for $1,000 more? The new 1DX also has a 61pt autofocus so this just looks like a 1DX junior.

What's the point? Who would buy this? People who need focus performance and speed will get a 1DX. Will current 5DMII users drop $3,500 just to get better focus? Not me. I honestly don't know what the bitching is about the 5DMII focus. Never had a problem. I shot a race with it and got excellent focus performance. People who need high resolution will be jumping to a Nikon D800.   

I honestly don't know what the bitching is about the 5DMII focus. Never had a problem. I shot a race with it and got excellent focus performance.

Try using the outer non-cross type AF points, they'll drive you crazy, even in relatively good lighting conditions, I guarantee you that . I even had problems in the studio a few times, I almost never use the central AF point (I don't want to recompose and you actually can't if you want things in focus while using big apertures), because I shoot only ppl. 5Ds AF is just so much worse compared to 1 series, there's also a big difference if you compare it with the 7D or even 40/50/60D (all the AF points are cross type)

I'll be shocked if they don't have more than 22mp.  My 550D has a much smaller sensor and is a few years old now and has 18mp.  It's nowhere near as good as the 5DMKII but after all this time, they should be able to come up with at least a decent 30mp full frame camera.

I can't see how they can noticeably improve the IQ much, it's already very good.  Some extra mp's to allow more cropping would be a big improvement.

I'll be shocked if they don't have more than 22mp.  My 550D has a much smaller sensor and is a few years old now and has 18mp.  It's nowhere near as good as the 5DMKII but after all this time, they should be able to come up with at least a decent 30mp full frame camera.

I can't see how they can noticeably improve the IQ much, it's already very good.  Some extra mp's to allow more cropping would be a big improvement.

Yes but I wouldnt count on much more then 24Mp, the MP race is pretty much over and really, there is no need for a DSLR with any 45MP, we are already producing MF results with the MII and the D3X.
As you say IQ, range, noise and ofcourse optics is much more of a priority.

I'll be shocked if they don't have more than 22mp.
I can't see how they can noticeably improve the IQ much, it's already very good.  Some extra mp's to allow more cropping would be a big improvement.

Prepare to be shocked, then. Canon Rumors assigned it [CR3]; they're never wrong on those.

What's missing from those specs is details.  Maybe they can't improve IQ much, but what about IQ at higher ISOs? What if they can make ISO 1600 as noise-free as ISO 200 is now? Or ISO 6400 as good as 1600 is? Maybe there's better weather sealing or (oh, I wish!) a better dust removal system. (Sure those are not worth $3500 by themselves, but the more improvements, the more worthwhile it becomes.)

But the 22MP number (I read somewhere) was aimed specifically at video. So I expect most of the improvements will be on the video side. Reducing or eliminating moire and the jello effect, and adding features that I can't even guess at (zebra stripes? 1080p 60fps? 4:2:2?).  We'll know soon enough.

Quote from: PaulieWalnuts on February 22, 2012, 18:43

I honestly don't know what the bitching is about the 5DMII focus. Never had a problem. I shot a race with it and got excellent focus performance.

Try using the outer non-cross type AF points, they'll drive you crazy, even in relatively good lighting conditions, I guarantee you that . I even had problems in the studio a few times, I almost never use the central AF point (I don't want to recompose and you actually can't if you want things in focus while using big apertures), because I shoot only ppl. 5Ds AF is just so much worse compared to 1 series, there's also a big difference if you compare it with the 7D or even 40/50/60D (all the AF points are cross type)

the old 40D have better auto focus than 5D MK2 i know that the 40D have all 9 points cross type.... 5d???

Quote from: sharpshot on February 23, 2012, 03:45

I'll be shocked if they don't have more than 22mp.
I can't see how they can noticeably improve the IQ much, it's already very good.  Some extra mp's to allow more cropping would be a big improvement.

Prepare to be shocked, then. Canon Rumors assigned it [CR3]; they're never wrong on those.

What's missing from those specs is details.  Maybe they can't improve IQ much, but what about IQ at higher ISOs? What if they can make ISO 1600 as noise-free as ISO 200 is now? Or ISO 6400 as good as 1600 is? Maybe there's better weather sealing or (oh, I wish!) a better dust removal system. (Sure those are not worth $3500 by themselves, but the more improvements, the more worthwhile it becomes.)

But the 22MP number (I read somewhere) was aimed specifically at video. So I expect most of the improvements will be on the video side. Reducing or eliminating moire and the jello effect, and adding features that I can't even guess at (zebra stripes? 1080p 60fps? 4:2:2?).  We'll know soon enough.

There's also talk of a 45mp camera and that Canon will quickly look at the new Nikon and come up with something a bit better.

While a lot of people want more FPS and faster auto focus, I would be much more interested in a stripped down camera that wasn't so heavy to carry around all day.  I only use manual and aperture priority, don't need all the gimmicks.  Can't remember ever using ISO past 3200.  I don't really see why digital full frame cameras are so much bulkier than some of the 35mm film cameras I used to use.  Hopefully a manufacturer will make a lightweight full frame camera with an EVF one day.

Quote from: KB on February 23, 2012, 11:31

Quote from: sharpshot on February 23, 2012, 03:45

I'll be shocked if they don't have more than 22mp.
I can't see how they can noticeably improve the IQ much, it's already very good.  Some extra mp's to allow more cropping would be a big improvement.

Prepare to be shocked, then. Canon Rumors assigned it [CR3]; they're never wrong on those.

What's missing from those specs is details.  Maybe they can't improve IQ much, but what about IQ at higher ISOs? What if they can make ISO 1600 as noise-free as ISO 200 is now? Or ISO 6400 as good as 1600 is? Maybe there's better weather sealing or (oh, I wish!) a better dust removal system. (Sure those are not worth $3500 by themselves, but the more improvements, the more worthwhile it becomes.)

But the 22MP number (I read somewhere) was aimed specifically at video. So I expect most of the improvements will be on the video side. Reducing or eliminating moire and the jello effect, and adding features that I can't even guess at (zebra stripes? 1080p 60fps? 4:2:2?).  We'll know soon enough.

There's also talk of a 45mp camera and that Canon will quickly look at the new Nikon and come up with something a bit better.

While a lot of people want more FPS and faster auto focus, I would be much more interested in a stripped down camera that wasn't so heavy to carry around all day.  I only use manual and aperture priority, don't need all the gimmicks.  Can't remember ever using ISO past 3200.  I don't really see why digital full frame cameras are so much bulkier than some of the 35mm film cameras I used to use.  Hopefully a manufacturer will make a lightweight full frame camera with an EVF one day.

There is such a camera on the market.... Leica M9 .... maybe the price of the camera anser your question regarding a lightweight full frame camera.

Quote from: nicku on February 23, 2012, 12:40

There is such a camera on the market.... Leica M9 .... maybe the price of the camera answer your question regarding a lightweight full frame camera.

The M9 doesn't have an EVF, does it ?

Of course not, it's a rangefinder.

I would like a Leica M9 but the price tag puts me off.  I'm sure the other manufacturers can make a full frame camera that's not bulky for a more reasonable price.

Hmmm, thats a lot of money for increased AF and FPS. Don't get me wrong i'd love both of those, the AF on my Mark II is poor and I miss focus quite a bit at the bigger apertures, i'd also like to be able to shoot some faster action with better focus. But that's a lot of money. I guess it comes down to seeing the image quality versus the Mark II.

Hmmm, thats a lot of money for increased AF and FPS.

There's nothing in the leaked specs about an increase in FPS, is there?

Quote from: KB on February 24, 2012, 10:58

Quote from: contrastaddict on February 24, 2012, 00:46

Hmmm, thats a lot of money for increased AF and FPS.

There's nothing in the leaked specs about an increase in FPS, is there?

Not the official leaked specs, but it has showed up in the rumors many times with these confirmed specs. Mainly 6.5fps if I remember correctly. So everyone seems to be in agreement that a FPS boost is coming.

I don't generally shoot things that require a higher fps. But even if I did, I'm not sure 6.5 fps would excite me much. But I guess they can't go much higher without endangering the 1 line. Just 3 more days and we'll know what's coming, and when ....

Quote from: sharpshot on February 23, 2012, 18:07

I would like a Leica M9 but the price tag puts me off.  I'm sure the other manufacturers can make a full frame camera that's not bulky for a more reasonable price.

Would be nice if Canon reached into the parts bin and used the old 21MP sensor one more time but in a range finder.

You'd need a whole new set of glass for a rangefinder. It would work out very expensive especially as there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in them so Canon would have to cover the cost of developing and producing a second line-up of lenses from a limited market meaning sky-high prices. You'd do better going for the digital Leica or a Fuji GF670 or GW670 film camera.

Quote from: Tabimura on February 25, 2012, 02:16

Apparently 5D X name confirmed http://www.kuaddro.com/canon-eos-5dx-name-confirmed/
Take it with a grain of salt, though. We'll know in 2-3 days anyway.

Or not.  

Canon Rumors recently changed the date to Friday from Monday (2 March instead of 27 Feb). That's the first time I can remember that a [CR3] "fact" was wrong. Oh, well, no one bats 1000%.  

Yeah, a rumors site was wrong, how about that!!

The only thing certain is that we're absolutely clueless about what and when is coming from Canon.