More and more people are reporting sales.  Yesterday a photographer reported in the forums that they sold two photos that brought in $5000.

72% of the first quarter sales were RM.

The information is in their forum.  You have to be an approved photo submitter in order to participate in the forum so I can't link it.     

They also have recently released a Q1 sales report in the forum which has some good information in it.

Perhaps I should go back and add to my small portfolio there. I uploaded last fall (and it was a very slow process to disambiguate the keywords, but they did a good job with available meanings) but thought I'd wait to add to it as it didn't appear anyone was making sales at that time.

They certainly seem to have folks actively working to drum up business, which is promising indeed.

I come to the conclusion that I'm either being ripped off by the microstock sites or their is more money available for purchasing photos with the higher end buyers.

Only you yourself can decide what your whotos are worth and where they should go. Microstock is merely a different business model that fills a need for lower budget users.  It is a volume game for the photographer. A hot photo may be downloaded 800 times and earn you $800 in this volume game over time. The same photo, if offered as Licensed and Rights managed, can earn you $1500 or more for one sale.

Please note that it is not proper business practice to ffer micro as Licensed on rights managed sites. It is unfortunate that some of the Rights Managed sites do not spell this out implicitly - they are so afraid to use the "M" word (microstock). I do believe Photoshelter has taken steps to clarify their kanguage since of of their contributors had photos listed as RM that were already selling on a half dozen RF micro sites.

Licensed is there for a reason, so that usage of an image can be tracked. Once it is out in the market as RF, it is up for grabs. That is why this "exclusive buyout" that Dreamstime offers is quite the joke, although it does happen. A buyer would be stupid to do an exclusive buy on an image that has already been DL'd 250 times.

If you are interested in earnings potential for an image, the price calculator at Alamy.com is open to use without logging in. Do a search on a subject you shoot. Pick any image as long as it is "L" not RF. Then use their price calculator on it. Choose different criteria when doing this, for instance, choose one use as "Front Cover" and another price as Inside Page. It will help give you an understanding of how RM pricing works. BTW, on Alamy,  the quality of the image you select won't matter. So don't worry if the image you select is trashy (unfortunately there is a lot of garbage on Alamy Alamy does not edit content, only technical quality)

I do micro mainly for my illustrations - but most of my photos go RM. I have 150+ RM on Photoshelter but just in a holding pattern there to see where things go with it.

The guy who sold the 2 for $5K on PSC is a seasoned pro already having a track record with major magazines.  Just wanted to discourage any rush of upload mania there because there will be disappointment in watching every day for sales. It does not happen that way in the RM world. It is not unusal for an image to be considered by a buyer for weeks, and if it does not fit in the final product, there is a chance of the image being returned.

Some of the above cited is why FeaturePics will ultimately fail - they don't knw how to market properly for RM, and many of the contributors there that are offering images for $10 or $14 as RM (what a joke), haven't a clue as to what it is all about. Offering RM, a bulk of their (FeatPics) income should be generated from it. But they have no idea as to how to manage RM models and do not actively market such content. One of the reasons I quit FP.

As for the higher end buyers - they are out there. And only on rare occasions do they go micro.

It is not unusal for an image to be considered by a buyer for weeks, and if it does not fit in the final product, there is a chance of the image being returned.

Just wanted to highlight this point.

Last week I made a good rights managed sale to a designer.  He downloaded the comp from an agency this time last year.  It took his client a year to decide that they wanted to go ahead with the campaign.

Photoshelter is extremely promising; they have great people in their team and they are doing an amazing jobs in finding new customers and promoting the site.

Just uploaded 200 over night   They had more than 100,000 approved images last month and already more than 16000 photographers...

More and more people are reporting sales.  Yesterday a photographer reported in the forums that they sold two photos that brought in $5000.

72% of the first quarter sales were RM.

And more and more "shady" characters are coming on here and registering and talking up a site that has actually sold SFA from my perspective.

Separating the hype from reality is almost a full-time job for some of us

Quote from: Slimshady on May 03, 2008, 06:08

More and more people are reporting sales.  Yesterday a photographer reported in the forums that they sold two photos that brought in $5000.

72% of the first quarter sales were RM.

And more and more "shady" characters are coming on here and registering and talking up a site that has actually sold SFA from my perspective.

Separating the hype from reality is almost a full-time job for some of us

Forgive me for supporting and talking up a site that is giving 70% back to its photographers.   

Quote from: Contakt on May 04, 2008, 15:57

Quote from: Slimshady on May 03, 2008, 06:08

More and more people are reporting sales.  Yesterday a photographer reported in the forums that they sold two photos that brought in $5000.

72% of the first quarter sales were RM.

And more and more "shady" characters are coming on here and registering and talking up a site that has actually sold SFA from my perspective.

Separating the hype from reality is almost a full-time job for some of us

Forgive me for supporting and talking up a site that is giving 70% back to its photographers.   

D'yknow that's what someone who is working for them would come back with but I kinda have you spotted already.

Sorry fella, that sorta unsupported hype might work on some but not on this guy.

SFA

what does this mean(Scottish Football Association?)

Separating the hype from reality is almost a full-time job for some of us

You speak of SS-Newbie or IS-woohay-threads?

It's not hype.  It's what is right.  70% commission back to it's photographers at a fair price.

It is actually only 40% if you include the 30% taxes that they will withhold from non-US photographers if they are not registered with the US tax authority. This is totally ridiculous.

Wow Reviews are fast 

Submitted multiple small batches Friday, first one has been reviewed, 2 pictures are Editor Choice, sweet!

...Sounds a bit scam-like to me.  Something about it isn't quite right.

totally agree.I haven't joined with them yet but it is disappointing to hear that.

Because they are the only one to follow US laws, LOL!!!

I really don't understand what the problem is here.  You make money, you have to pay taxes, end of story.  Photoshelter is a US based company and it falls under US laws.

30% is just the default tax rate if you don;' take the time to fill out the IRS form.  As explained on their website, most countries have a Tax Treaty with US and the wthholding rate is actually very low, 0 to 10% on average depending on which country you live in, see table at: http://www.ofii.org/docs/Withholding_Rates.pdf

Well, that's all well and good.  But the form can take around 18 months to go through to US government and you can only put it through once you've sold a file there.  You have three months from the date of sale to claim the money back, so essentially for up to 15 months, you're being cheated out of money.

I phoned the accountant in the family, and he told me NOT to fill the form in and NOT to go with that company.  He said that the US shouldn't be keeping any of the money because as a contributor/freelance artist artist to the company and NOT an employee, I'm responsible for paying my own taxes in MY OWN country of residence.  He said that the US get their taxes from the 30% of the money that I'm not paid, and that in this situation, Photoshelter should NOT be withholding that money.

The Tax Treaty apparently should not apply in this situations, and is primarily designed for those working and living in the US under contract but having their primary residence somewhere else in the world.  Basically, if I went and working for Microsoft in the states on a temporary visa, I would pay 30% taxes on my pay each month to the US government, because that covers my temporary right to be there - my police, fire service, roads, other public services.  It's the US's way of making sure I'm paying for myself while I'm there.  If I was there for longer, then I would apply to the government to NOT pay that 30%, but to get a social security number or whatever you guys have, so that I could pay normal taxes.  It's like emergency tax.  It doesn't apply to those who aren't actually working in the US.  Therefore, because I am not residing in the US then I do not need to pay the 30% and I do not need to apply under the tax treaty.

DISCLAIMER: This is what my relative told me who is an accountant in London.  He says he's dealt with a similar situation before with a musician.

Well, that's all well and good.  But the form can take around 18 months to go through to US government

??  According to IRS it takes on average 4 to 6 weeks to get back an ITIN after submitting a W-7 form to IRS.  Not sure where you got this 18 months from?

A quick Google search shows that people gets their ITIN as quick as 3 weeks after submitting the form...

Seren is absolutely right.  As a non-US citizen NOT LIVING in the US you are not accountable to pay tax there. The company (Photoshelter in this case) is accountable for taxes on the income from the money they earn from us photographers (the commission that they take on each sale). I must, however, pay taxes on my income from stock in my own country of residence.  As long as they have this requirement I will not join them and I will encourage other non-US photographers to do the same and to make sure they get the message.

Here's some stuff Allen at Photoshelter wrote about the tax situation.

There�s been a lot of talk about taxes on this forum, especially from our non-US-based photographers regarding the headache that the necessary paperwork is causing. Trust us, the tax reporting obligation creates an additional administrative burden on us and we don�t like it either, but it is the law and in order to protect both PhotoShelter and you folks, we need to follow it.

We�ll try to make this as clear as you can make anything about taxes, and will work to continue to clarify the issue and make whatever changes or improvements that we can as we move forward. We didn�t make this stuff up though. We have hired and consulted with tax attorneys and tax specialists who deal with this for a living and worked with them to this result. We knew this was going to be an issue with some folks, which is the reason that we put it �up front�. As several of the folks have noted on the forums, many of our competitors do the same thing, only you don�t find out about it until you try to get paid.

Here are a few key concepts for non-US-based contributors:

First, because you are being paid by PhotoShelter, which is a U.S. Corporation, the income is deemed to be taxable in the U.S. Some folks don�t seem to like this, but please remember one key thing: for tax purposes, you are not �selling� an image in the traditional sense. What you are receiving from PhotoShelter are the proceeds under a license agreement that must be treated as a royalty as required under tax law. U.S. Treasury Regulation 1.871-7(b) makes it clear that "items of fixed or determinable annual or periodical gains, profits, or income are also subject to [the 30% withholding tax], as, for instance, royalties, including royalties for the use of patents, copyrights, secret processes and formulas, and other like property." Payments from the licensing of stock photography fall squarely within the category of royalties described in the regulation. Because these payments need be characterized as royalties constituting "fixed and determinable, annual or periodic" income, PhotoShelter, Inc. is required under the Internal Revenue Code to serve as a withholding agent.

The instructions on Form W-8BEN outline a royalty as one of the applicable reporting classes. To many who have responded that you have sold images to U.S. magazines without going through this hassle, this is the key difference (i.e. a direct sale does not constitute a royalty). Also for those who don�t like paying U.S. taxes (including Wesley Snipes), (please note that from what we can tell, and we can�t speak for every country in the world) you can often claim a lower withholding rate (possibly 0%) on the Form W-8BEN if there is a tax treaty between your home country and the U.S., or alternatively, many countries allow you to take a credit for taxes in your own country where you are a resident for taxes paid in the U.S.

The issue that we had been waiting several months to receive clarification from the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) was whether or not a letter is required to be submitted with the W-7 from PhotoShelter as justification for receiving an ITIN. Our take was that you don�t need this letter and that this documentation is a requisite for what we interpret as more �institutional� forms of payment, i.e. banks, insurance companies, brokerage firms, etc. We contacted the IRS on multiple occasions and when we explained our position, they needed to do further research. We finally heard back from them and even though we think it�s a bit much, the IRS requires the following documentation:

For our international photographers, when you submit the W-7 to get an ITIN, you will need to provide evidence that you will be receiving a payment from a U.S. company in order to substantiate the requirement for an ITIN. To do so, you must have your first sale with PhotoShelter before making your application for an ITIN. When you have your first sale, we will make available to you on the �My Sales� tab of your profile page, a remittance advice with your name, address and account number to demonstrate your entitlement to receive these funds. In addition, as a preemptive matter and even though the IRS said we didn�t need to, we are also going to provide a letter to further clarify this point. You can download this letter in the �Tax Information� section of the �Payment Info� tab of your profile. These documents, along with your evidence of residence should be submitted to the IRS in order to obtain an ITIN. Also, as several of you have pointed out, rather than send these documents to the U.S., the IRS does have offices in London, Paris and Frankfurt, which should help cut down on the turnaround time.

If you want to take advantage of the reduced withholding rates provided under a tax treaty upon your first sale, you�ll have to wait until you receive your ITIN and submit with your Form W-8BEN before you draw your funds, otherwise we will have to withhold taxes at a 30% rate.

Our intention was to avoid this process and enable it so that you could get the tax paperwork done �upfront� before you had a sale. But in practice, the IRS apparently doesn�t want to set up an ITIN for a person unless they can demonstrate that they need one.

Filling out the paperwork is a process that takes a lot of time. Again, we want to make the process as easy for you as possible, but we have to comply with the tax laws and ultimately there is a notable benefit to folks like our photographers in the U.K. who once the proper documentation is received get their payment with $0 withheld. One of the respondents on the forum made a comment essentially saying �do it once and get it over with�. Remember that you don�t need to go through this every time you make a sale; just the one time to get it set up to take advantage of the reduced rates. We are sorry that this process is unavoidable and realize that getting passports and other records notarized is difficult, but we are committed to assisting you in completing the process as quickly as is reasonably possible.

We've developed a few pages in the Learning Center to provide additional information, which we suggest you read:

For US Persons: http://psc.photoshelter.com/mem/learn/payment/tax
For non-US: http://psc.photoshelter.com/mem/learn/payment/tax_intl

Allen

Took a while, but finally Mr. Shady admits to being a representative of Photoshelter.com.

While "some" might appreciate you rewriting the USA tax code in its entirety, I think it would be much more honest of you to say who you are when it involves inflated earnings spin. Because that's all it is!

Lately there's been a succession of dot.com millionaires coming on MSG with off-the-wall earnings and they're barely out of their PJ's.

That's the type of hype I was referring to and well done to you too Seren for coming back and unmasking what is potentially one of the largest scams being perpetrated on European photographers under the guise of US tax law.

This is a huge gray area and the reason why SS and IS don't even go near it. The fact that PS is domiciled in the US is of no relevance to me whatsoever but the fact that you think you can justify withholding 30% of my earnings is the reason why I'm deleting my portfolio there for starters.

media magnet also has this same tax setup

Took a while, but finally Mr. Shady admits to being a representative of Photoshelter.com.

While "some" might appreciate you rewriting the USA tax code in its entirety, I think it would be much more honest of you to say who you are when it involves inflated earnings spin. Because that's all it is!

Lately there's been a succession of dot.com millionaires coming on MSG with off-the-wall earnings and they're barely out of their PJ's.

That's the type of hype I was referring to and well done to you too Seren for coming back and unmasking what is potentially one of the largest scams being perpetrated on European photographers under the guise of US tax law.

This is a huge gray area and the reason why SS and IS don't even go near it. The fact that PS is domiciled in the US is of no relevance to me whatsoever but the fact that you think you can justify withholding 30% of my earnings is the reason why I'm deleting my portfolio there for starters.

Just saw your work over there, very nice! 
If you would have the opportunity to work for Getty Images would you just tell them "no, sorry, but I won't fill out this stupid tax form because I live in Ireland" ?   C'mon Mr White...

I don't have many photos with them but If I ever get a sale there, I will do the forms.  As long as I can get all the money and pay tax in the UK, I don't mind.

Just saw your work over there, very nice! 
If you would have the opportunity to work for Getty Images would you just tell them "no, sorry, but I won't fill out this stupid tax form because I live in Ireland" ?   C'mon Mr White...

Thankyou CP for your kind words. I already submit to Getty now go try and find me on there 

That aside, all this controversy prompted me to take a closer look at Photoshelter and the reason why I've come out so vocally against Mr. Shady.

As it stands, I don't believe PS is making the type of money he is waxing lyrical about. Initially the site showed much promise and after several months what we have now is a collection of snapshot style images that look more like they belong in someone's personal portfolio than on any commercial site.

90% of the images on PS are simply not going to sell and it is for that reason the IRS won't be in the slightest bit interested in this site no more than myself.

And another sale reported again today. 

Well I guess we can make it 4 now because here's one found in use.

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/capital/2008/05/08/the-last-clinton-election?addComment=true