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Author Topic: How do you deal with models and make up artists distributing your pics?  (Read 2435 times)

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Ed

« on: December 13, 2011, 13:54 »
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I've been doing a TON of modeling sessions since August.  One thing I'm having trouble with is models and make up artists copying and putting my images everywhere.  I'll do TFCD on a lot of shoots in order to try to keep costs down but in the past week I've had the following occur:

Two models that I shot three weeks ago have posted one of my pictures of them on the Facebook site of a local night club.  They are competing for a modeling contract with a modeling agency and they are doing runway sessions as part of the competition (I'm shooting the last runway session in the competition tonight).  Technically they are using the images for their own use, but I'm not too sure what the club is going to do with the images going forward.

A makup artist I worked with two months ago just "friended" me on Facebook.  I was surprised to see the image she is using for her profile picture is one I took of a model she worked on a month ago (it is watermarked).

A studio I shot at four weeks ago took an image from my company Facebook page and added it to theirs promoting the photo shoot and the studio...this lead to another photographer accusing ME of stealing an image from the studio because the studio had a prop that is relatively unique to that studio (a 10 foot tall Academy Award statue) - even though my watermark is on the image.

Should I even worry about these things?  How do you guys deal with it?


« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2011, 14:02 »
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If you're doing TFCD work, what did you think the models were going to do with the images other than use them to try to promote themselves on facebook, Model Mayhem and basically anywhere else that they need images? Isn't that the whole point of the arrangement?

Ed

« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2011, 14:04 »
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If you're doing TFCD work, what did you think the models were going to do with the images other than use them to try to promote themselves on facebook, Model Mayhem and basically anywhere else that they need images? Isn't that the whole point of the arrangement?

Promote themselves, yes.  Promote studios, no.  Promote makeup artists, no.  Promote night clubs, no.

RT


« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2011, 14:10 »
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You've two choices:

Pay your models and then you don't have to give them any of the photos

or

If you're doing TFCD get them to sign a contract detailing exactly what they can use the images for.

It's not rocket science!

« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2011, 14:14 »
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You are not dealing with professional models & most of them are totally ignorant of copyright laws.

This is the price we pay for using Model Mayhem, Craigslist or Facebook talent.

« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2011, 14:15 »
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You've two choices:

Pay your models and then you don't have to give them any of the photos

or

If you're doing TFCD get them to sign a contract detailing exactly what they can use the images for.

It's not rocket science!

^^^
This

« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2011, 14:19 »
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Without any documentation saying otherwise, your giving photos to the models could easily be construed as giving them permission to use them for promotional purposes.  That could apply as well to the makeup artist and studio where the photos were shot.  In any event, if your watermark appears on the photos, what's the harm?  Heck, they're crediting you, which gives you promotional value as well.

Most releases have a "for valuable consideration" clause.  In a TFCD shoot, the images you provide are that value.  You should expect and encourage their promotional use, as long of course as they know they can't resell the images without your consent.

Ed

« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2011, 14:19 »
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You are not dealing with professional models & most of them are totally ignorant of copyright laws.

This is the price we pay for using Model Mayhem, Craigslist or Facebook talent.

Very true.

« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2011, 14:25 »
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I for one would like to work with you guys to come up with a good TFP contract.  (But now that Ive put the offer out there, I don't have time to stray off the all-day-and-all-night job until I get back from Christmas though.)  If we could come up with a template together maybe we will meet all the essential points.

I do give models a TFCD photo release outlining what they are entitled to do with the files.  They are given full rez files for printing and websized photos with studio stamp for facebook etc.  They can use a non-marked photo on their own website..... and wherever possible add the line "photography by...."  Cannot strip metadata.   Cannot sell or be used commercially without my consent.  Cannot be integrated into a brand or an event, with or without compensation without my permission.

LOL I was surprized to arrive at a dance school recently and see larger than life window decals of my photos.  They were promoting their own studio, absolutely within the photo release - but I did stop dead in my tracks thinking "Wait a minute here....."

It's hard not to get worked up about these things Ed, but it's definitely a reality of the times.  If the makeup artist "stole" the image from you, tell her what she is doing wrong.  It almost seems that there is a different set of rules for Facebook - like no rules.  Never put anything on Facebook without your studio identity - because it WILL be reposted/stolen/abused.

Ed

« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2011, 14:50 »
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Disorderly - I'm not interested in shooting pics to give them away for the fame.  I'm not interested in building a reputation as the guy to go to for free images that can be distributed anywhere at anytime for any reason.  There needs to be a business relationship and I need to put money in the bank (and yes, there's an argument that models should feel the same way...but I'm not going to argue if they're willing to do it for free).  ;)

Pixart - I agree...and I've tried different things.  Currently I'm providing models with a "print ready" version (2400 long edge) and a "web ready" version (watermarked 720 long edge).  Facebook strips metadata from images so even though it's there when I provide it, it will get stripped.

There are certain models that I don't provide print ready images to - for the very reason of past experience.  My issue, why I'm bothered by it, is because the majority of my work is currently listed as RM.  If this sort of thing is happening, I can't very well guarantee exclusive rights if they are requested (money out of my pocket).  Maybe I should reconsider, license them as RF, and call it a day.  I just don't like the idea of "the tail wagging the dog".

« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2011, 15:00 »
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Disorderly - I'm not interested in shooting pics to give them away for the fame.  I'm not interested in building a reputation as the guy to go to for free images that can be distributed anywhere at anytime for any reason.  There needs to be a business relationship and I need to put money in the bank (and yes, there's an argument that models should feel the same way...but I'm not going to argue if they're willing to do it for free).  ;)

Sorry, Ed, but they aren't doing it for free.  Those images are their payment, that "valuable consideration" your release likely mentions.  You aren't doing them a favor by giving them images.  You're trading, so don't assume you can restrict their use so severely without invalidating that release.

digitalexpressionimages

« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2011, 15:06 »
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Consider it a learning experience to be specific in your TFCD contract. You both agree to work with each other for certain considerations but what extent the consideration (the CD) can be used needs to be spelled out. I doubt you'll eliminate the problem this way because a model will use her photo online if she thinks she looks good regardless of whether it's stipulated or not. Human nature.

Now that some damage has been done you have two choices: make a big deal and alienate the studio, make-up artist and model plus, with the way people talk, probably a bunch others or call it a hazard of the business and hope it doesn't cost you anything. I would think of it as a good will gesture to mention to all the above that you've seen the image usage, you're OK with it this time but would prefer if they talk to you before spreading your work around the net. That way they know at least where the line is. This is for the make-up artist and studio that I assume you paid, not the model who is working for the CD and photos you're taking.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 15:08 by digitalexpressionimages »

« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2011, 15:26 »
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The new part of the problem, is this tradition began as "Trade for PRINT", didn't photographers hand over an 8x10 as payment with a "professional photo do not copy" stamped on the back?

TFCD (trade for COMPACT DISC) is a lot cheaper than running prints, but in the long run it may be more costly.  Especially if you are speaking of RM images like Ed and not RF. 

Ed

« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2011, 15:42 »
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Now that some damage has been done you have two choices: make a big deal and alienate the studio, make-up artist and model plus, with the way people talk, probably a bunch others or call it a hazard of the business and hope it doesn't cost you anything. I would think of it as a good will gesture to mention to all the above that you've seen the image usage, you're OK with it this time but would prefer if they talk to you before spreading your work around the net. That way they know at least where the line is. This is for the make-up artist and studio that I assume you paid, not the model who is working for the CD and photos you're taking.

Yep...and the second is the best option if I want to keep up business relationships.  Live and learn.

« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2011, 15:48 »
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You might also consider only giving the models copies of pictures you don't intend to use yourself.

« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2011, 16:38 »
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Should I even worry about these things?  How do you guys deal with it?
If you don't pay your models, you will have to live with the fact that they can use your photos for their own promo, on FB or anywhere else. Fair deal. The only thing I ask is not to crop out my very discreet copyright watermark at the bottom. You can't have the cake and eat it and the deal has to be win-win. If somebody is going to "steal" an image from FB at quality 4, good luck.

Strangely enough, all my Asian models (college students) insisted on my watermark. It must be a sort of quality seal being photographed by an eccentric long-haired white guy and be able to show proof of that on the measure of all things, Holy Facebook. The Western models don't care, as long as they have their stuff. They never get it larger than 4M so what can they do with it?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 16:51 by AttilaTheNun »

« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2011, 18:09 »
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There's nothing to stop you carrying on offering the images for sale RM, you just aren't going to be able to offer any exclusive usage license terms. I guess that's the "valuable consideration" you've given away, but how many RM sales include exclusive usage?

« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 04:08 »
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You might also consider only giving the models copies of pictures you don't intend to use yourself.
That is what I was going to say.  If they give you a modelling session for free then don't let them have those images but do them another session for themselves. Or do half and half in one session.

rinderart

« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2012, 14:25 »
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I've never paid a model for Penny stock and never will One, because I live in Hollywood and can get as many as I could possibly shoot for trade. But, What i do after my first meeting with them is say. I'll shoot what you need and i'll shoot what I need. And they only get the ones I did for there needs. Not to many I've shot care about silly stock oriented stuff anyway. there actors mostly and thats a different format than stock and what I do for my own look. Everyones happy. makeup People?? I don't use them personally unless Im shooting for am client then it's there call.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 14:26 by rinderart »

« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2012, 14:39 »
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Promote themselves, yes.  Promote studios, no.  Promote makeup artists, no.  Promote night clubs, no.

Did you tell this to your models before the shoot?

You should really discuss before the shoot what the images may/may not be used for. It's very difficult to change the "contract" afterwards...
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 14:41 by Perry »

rinderart

« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2012, 16:19 »
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Very Correct. I always have a pre-shoot meet with everyone and spell it all out.

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