Author Topic: Pizza workers make more that MS Stock Photographers in Washington State (Read 17389 times)

tab62 · « **on:** December 28, 2012, 11:21 »

FYI

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/States-minimum-wage-goes-up-on-New-Years-Day-185054251.html

$:-\$

I guess this could be my 'Plan B'...

Poncke · « **Reply #1 on:** December 28, 2012, 11:43 »

Whats your point?

ShadySue · « **Reply #2 on:** December 28, 2012, 11:50 »

I'm sure there are plenty of smart shooters who make more than this per hour at MS.

luissantos84 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 28, 2012, 11:50 »

you can say more than some but for sure not the ones doing it full time and working hard, this is a dumb (no offense) discussion because you can't compare one thing to another, one thing is making pizzas other is shooting for stock, pretty much the only thing you can compare is the hour rate but even that is far from accurate because it changes for every contributor and a ton other variables

its not accurate to say I have made perhaps 100$ a hour this month because that's not my income per hour, again you can't compare jobs that way, even worst on a supposed passive income job

gostwyck · « **Reply #4 on:** December 28, 2012, 12:18 »

It does take time, hard work and a decent-sized portfolio to build a reliable and worthwhile income in microstock. For most people (including me), economically speaking, they probably would be better off working for minimum wage for at least the first couple of years. That's the 'apprenticeship' you have to accept to gain the benefits. Other than ownership of ridiculous talent (see Yuri, SJL, etc) there are no short-cuts. I know I put in hundreds, if not thousands, of hours into microstock before I saw a decent return but I enjoyed it so it wasn't really 'work'. Looking back, it was the best thing I ever did.

microstockphoto.co.uk · « **Reply #5 on:** December 28, 2012, 12:36 »

Minimum wages are "per hour": what does that mean in the microstock situation?
Although nobody here expects this to be a perfect passive income, old pictures are still selling after many years (and more than I would have expected) so... it's not even possible to calculate an hourly wage.

lisafx · « **Reply #6 on:** December 28, 2012, 12:44 »

I remember thinking I could make more flipping burgers than doing microstock. And I remember how nice it was when that changed

Jo Ann Snover · « **Reply #7 on:** December 28, 2012, 12:59 »

When I started with iStock the royalties were 10, 20 and 30 cents (S, M, L) and my husband told me two things - that I'd never reach a $100 payout with those prices and that he could make more money playing Chess games at a local mall than I ever would selling stock.

Turned out he was wrong on both counts

Given the value of most of our images lasts a while, you can't really compare time spent building a portfolio to an hourly wage as has been noted above.

tab62 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 28, 2012, 13:08 »

I wanted to start this string to show how I felt at the beginning of my hobby/business. I was told at making .25 cents a pop that I would never see a payout thus when I saw the min wage article it hit home. Now going on my 2nd full year I feel I am finally beating the the min wage

with some decent payouts as of late...

pancaketom · « **Reply #9 on:** December 28, 2012, 13:49 »

Certainly the minimum wage for a microstock photographer starting out would be pretty low. One nice thing though is that you can take a day or 2 or more off whenever you feel like - try that with most minimum wage jobs and you will be unemployed and making nothing.

I have been pleasantly surprised how well sales of old images have held up, and unpleasantly surprised how much the sites have cut percentages and how newer image sales are not near the level they were a number of years ago.

cascoly · « **Reply #10 on:** December 28, 2012, 14:36 »

many of us also 'work' while traveling, and get to deduct expenses no minimum wage worker would be able to do

noodle · « **Reply #11 on:** December 28, 2012, 14:55 »

hey - dont forget the cash tips that pizza delivery guys get and dont claim...
whens the last time you were 'tipped' from ms agency, aside from the 'tip off' that your rates are going down...

luissantos84 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 28, 2012, 16:10 »

Quote from: noodle on December 28, 2012, 14:55

hey - dont forget the cash tips that pizza delivery guys get and dont claim...
whens the last time you were 'tipped' from ms agency, aside from the 'tip off' that your rates are going down...

why aren't we all delivering pizzas?

traveler1116 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 28, 2012, 16:13 »

Quote from: luissantos84 on December 28, 2012, 16:10

Quote from: noodle on December 28, 2012, 14:55
hey - dont forget the cash tips that pizza delivery guys get and dont claim...
whens the last time you were 'tipped' from ms agency, aside from the 'tip off' that your rates are going down...

why aren't we all delivering pizzas?

Funny I used to do that. At least no one robs you at gunpoint doing stock (insert clever istock comment here).

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #14 on:** December 29, 2012, 10:38 »

The pictures I took in my first month doing microstock many years ago have now brought in more money than I earned that month doing my day job.

enstoker · « **Reply #15 on:** December 29, 2012, 11:02 »

One pizza with bottarga and west Istrian olive oil, please.
(BTW, my tips are high)

RacePhoto · « **Reply #16 on:** December 29, 2012, 20:10 »

Quote from: ShadySue on December 28, 2012, 11:50

I'm sure there are plenty of smart shooters who make more than this per hour at MS.

The real answer is this.

Independent artists only make as much as they work for and build an individual income collection. BUT...

People who get $9.19 minimum wage, only get paid when they are at work.

Microstock makes sales while we are sleeping, out on vacation or out to lunch.

Dollars an hour is very short sited compared to investing effort and time for a longer term return.

Notes: The federal minimum wage in the United States is $7.25 per hour. Tipped workers, must be paid a minimum of $2.13 per hour, as long as the hourly wage plus tipped income result in a minimum of $7.25 per hour. As a former bar tender, the norm is $7 an hour at a really nice place, less at others. They use this to pay less and tips make up the difference. (which must also be declared to the IRS and where I worked we had to log every tip and then got it back at the end of the week, after they reported it to the IRS.)

JPSDK · « **Reply #17 on:** December 29, 2012, 20:23 »

Just for info and afterthought:

Denmark:
Pr. 1 marts 2009 (Yearly regulation) 103,15 kr. pr. hour = 18,23$

gillian vann · « **Reply #18 on:** December 29, 2012, 20:26 »

Quote from: RacePhoto on December 29, 2012, 20:10

Quote from: ShadySue on December 28, 2012, 11:50
I'm sure there are plenty of smart shooters who make more than this per hour at MS.

The real answer is this.

Independent artists only make as much as they work for and build an individual income collection. BUT...

People who get $9.19 minimum wage, only get paid when they are at work.

Microstock makes sales while we are sleeping, out on vacation or out to lunch.

yep,

even on xmas day we can be enjoying family life and eating & drinking ourselves silly and earning money. in my case only about $15 over the xmas weekend, but if I extrapolate that into a decent port size (x10 of my current) i'd be happy enough with that kind of residual.

Phil · « **Reply #19 on:** December 29, 2012, 20:56 »

in australia it is about us$17/hour

I estimate that I have earned well over double that after expenses (over triple before expenses that include holidays, gear I wanted anyway etc). Not too bad when it includes the time I spent that was very horribly inefficient, the 'on the job' training, experimentation etc etc.

Of course it is skewed by off periods such as only putting in about 50 hours for whole of 2012. This year I only earn't 80% of my previous income (but this has had the effect of increasing the hourly wage for the work I had already done

.
Unfortunately not many other jobs will continuing paying me 80% of my income when I don't feel like working for a year or more

lisafx · « **Reply #20 on:** December 30, 2012, 11:52 »

Am I understanding correctly? Are you guys saying that pizza workers make $18.23/hour in Denmark and $17/hour in Australia??

Here they make minimum wage, which is $7.25/hour. Something is wrong with the US if we are paying this much behind the rest of the developed world.

Maybe I misunderstood?

ShadySue · « **Reply #21 on:** December 30, 2012, 11:55 »

Quote from: lisafx on December 30, 2012, 11:52

Am I understanding correctly? Are you guys saying that pizza workers make $18.23/hour in Denmark and $17/hour in Australia??

Here they make minimum wage, which is $7.25/hour. Something is wrong with the US if we are paying this much behind the rest of the developed world.

Maybe I misunderstood?

AIUI, Denmark is a very expensive country to live in, compared to the UK, which is much more expensive for most things than the US. Also tipping isn't as rife in Oz as it is in the US and is becoming in the UK.

lisafx · « **Reply #22 on:** December 30, 2012, 12:03 »

Quote from: ShadySue on December 30, 2012, 11:55

Quote from: lisafx on December 30, 2012, 11:52
Am I understanding correctly? Are you guys saying that pizza workers make $18.23/hour in Denmark and $17/hour in Australia??

Here they make minimum wage, which is $7.25/hour. Something is wrong with the US if we are paying this much behind the rest of the developed world.

Maybe I misunderstood?

AIUI, Denmark is a very expensive country to live in, compared to the UK, which is much more expensive for most things than the US. Also tipping isn't as rife in Oz as it is in the US and is becoming in the UK.

Fair enough. But pizza store workers don't typically get tipped here, except for the delivery drivers, and servers, if it is a sit-down restaurant. The people who work at, say, Dominos or Papa Johns aren't tipped unless they are the delivery person.

JPSDK · « **Reply #23 on:** December 30, 2012, 12:28 »

Quote from: lisafx on December 30, 2012, 11:52

Am I understanding correctly? Are you guys saying that pizza workers make $18.23/hour in Denmark and $17/hour in Australia??

Here they make minimum wage, which is $7.25/hour. Something is wrong with the US if we are paying this much behind the rest of the developed world.

Maybe I misunderstood?

No you didnt.
A loaf of bread costs 5 dollars here.
A small house out in the contry costs 200.000 dollars.
And why is that?
Because general expenses are high, taxes are high, and government spends are high. Free education (universities), free healthcare, it all costs.
But pays back.
When all is said and done it boils down to security and trust.
And here we have that.

ShadySue · « **Reply #24 on:** December 30, 2012, 12:37 »

Quote from: lisafx on December 30, 2012, 12:03

Quote from: ShadySue on December 30, 2012, 11:55
Quote from: lisafx on December 30, 2012, 11:52
Am I understanding correctly? Are you guys saying that pizza workers make $18.23/hour in Denmark and $17/hour in Australia??

Here they make minimum wage, which is $7.25/hour. Something is wrong with the US if we are paying this much behind the rest of the developed world.

Maybe I misunderstood?

AIUI, Denmark is a very expensive country to live in, compared to the UK, which is much more expensive for most things than the US. Also tipping isn't as rife in Oz as it is in the US and is becoming in the UK.

Fair enough. But pizza store workers don't typically get tipped here, except for the delivery drivers, and servers, if it is a sit-down restaurant. The people who work at, say, Dominos or Papa Johns aren't tipped unless they are the delivery person.

True enough.
Anyway for comparison, minimum wage in the UK for over-21s is £6.19 ($10) per hour, except in the rare case that someone over 21 is an apprentice in their first year, when it's £2.65 per hour.

tab62 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 30, 2012, 13:18 »

Economics Stateside believe in Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand" theory- that the government should not determine the wages but Supply & Demand from the private sector thus a worker in New York City may make $15 per hour making pizza while some dude in the Midwest would be making $5 per hour.

lisafx · « **Reply #26 on:** December 30, 2012, 13:29 »

Quote from: JPSDK on December 30, 2012, 12:28

No you didnt.
A loaf of bread costs 5 dollars here.
A small house out in the contry costs 200.000 dollars.
And why is that?
Because general expenses are high, taxes are high, and government spends are high. Free education (universities), free healthcare, it all costs.
But pays back.
When all is said and done it boils down to security and trust.
And here we have that.

Interesting. The inflation sounds bad, but OTOH, as you mention, you get free university, free health care, pension, etc. For the 7.25/hour pizza worker here, they don't get any of those benefits. I would rather live in your society, JPDSK, but unfortunately majority of voters here disagree...

The UK wage sounds more comparable to the US one, except, again, you get health care covered out of that.

Tom, good point about the regional differences in wages. Although AFAIK $5/hour would be illegal anywhere in the US (except in a tipped profession), as the national minimum wage is now $7.25. But I get your point.

leaf · « **Reply #27 on:** December 30, 2012, 18:17 »

Quote from: lisafx on December 30, 2012, 13:29

Quote from: JPSDK on December 30, 2012, 12:28

No you didnt.
A loaf of bread costs 5 dollars here.
A small house out in the contry costs 200.000 dollars.
And why is that?
Because general expenses are high, taxes are high, and government spends are high. Free education (universities), free healthcare, it all costs.
But pays back.
When all is said and done it boils down to security and trust.
And here we have that.

Interesting. The inflation sounds bad, but OTOH, as you mention, you get free university, free health care, pension, etc. For the 7.25/hour pizza worker here, they don't get any of those benefits. I would rather live in your society, JPDSK, but unfortunately majority of voters here disagree...

The UK wage sounds more comparable to the US one, except, again, you get health care covered out of that.

Tom, good point about the regional differences in wages. Although AFAIK $5/hour would be illegal anywhere in the US (except in a tipped profession), as the national minimum wage is now $7.25. But I get your point.

It's not inflation.. it's just the cost of goods. Many goods are more expensive because the people working to produce those goods get paid more and because there are high taxes on the goods in the store (25% in Norway)

Norway is quite similar to Denmark in the minimum wage and cost of goods. In Norway I'd guess a grocery store clerk or other non-educated job would get paid around $20/hr.

What people fail to assume, however is that everything is 3x. Things cots 3x more and wages are all 3x more. That simply isn't true. Things costs 2-3x more many times, but not always. Electronics, and cameras are often the same price as USA. And here is a big difference - professionals don't earn any more in Norway than they do in Canada. A teacher or Nurse in Canada earns as much (or more) than a teacher or nurse in Norway. So the spread in wages is WAY more in Canada (and USA) than it is in Norway. A 'professional' will earn 1.5x more than a 'minimum wage' job in Norway, whereas in Canada the difference between a Walmart worker and teacher can be 4x+
so.. a professional in Norway has actually less purchasing power than a professional in Canada, but a 'minimum wage earner' has a LOT more purchasing power in Norway than Canada.

lisafx · « **Reply #28 on:** December 30, 2012, 18:50 »

Very interesting, Tyler. Thanks for the clarification. This thread has been very educational for me

Jo Ann Snover · « **Reply #29 on:** December 30, 2012, 19:06 »

Politics in the US are less about what economists believe than about the current political landscape and who has the upper hand in setting policies. What has happened over the last several decades is that income inequality in the US has widened significantly and an effective gutting (you keep the law but remove most of the enforcement mechanisms or cut back staff to inspect) of many regulations - financial and environmental.

I happen to think it's deeply unfair that the salaries of hedge fund managers get taxed at the same rates (lower) as capital gains; I also think it's unfair that the US has virtually no worker protection laws - companies can fire most workers for any or no reason, aren't required to offer any benefits (if they offer any they can't discriminate, but they don't have to offer any), can renege on benefits for retirees far too easily, and on and on. If you listen to some businesses, they'll complain about horrible burden of government regulations. Have a read of this recent story about a pretty revolting - and perfectly legal - business move to cut wages and then give bonuses to the "managers" who did it.

Nothing's free. Those charmers gaming or rigging the system are just passing the costs on to everyone else.

JPSDK · « **Reply #30 on:** December 31, 2012, 05:17 »

FYI
there is a wealth of info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union

RacePhoto · « **Reply #31 on:** January 05, 2013, 01:06 »

You want unfair?

The company introduced a number of product lines including Agricultural Tractor, Implements, Industrial Tractor, Gleaner Combines, Hydroturbines, Valves and Pumps, Compressors, Electric Motors, Crushing and screening equipment, Comminution, Air Purification, Coal Gasification and Simplicity Garden Tractors. Allis-Chalmers was one of fourteen major electrical manufacturing companies that went to court in October 1937 to change the way unions excluded contractors and products in the building trades through the union use of the "Men and Means Clause". The action of Allis-Chalmers and others eventually resulted in the U.S. Supreme Court decision of June 18, 1945 that ended certain union practices that violated the Sherman Antitrust Act.

1981 - A-C, in an effort to cut costs, begins talks with its foundry workers for a wage reduction. The union representing the workers refuses to take a pay cut. To create the savings necessary, A-C makes the difficult decision to permanently shut down its West Allis foundry - from which so much of America's industrial equipment and might originated. The foundry will be shut down by the end of 1982, and it will eventually be flattened. Interest rates on some of A-C's capital credit exceed 15%. All production was cut; more layoffs occurred, reducing total hourly employment to 1600. A-C lost $28.8 million for the year.

1984 - The losses continue at A-C. The company celebrates its 70th anniversary in the farm equipment business; later that year, its agricultural equipment production, including combines, comes to a screeching halt. The company posts another big loss - $103 million. In just three years, A-C has lost nearly half a billion dollars. The company is drowning in debt due to the interest rates its creditors are charging.

The company also states that it intends to terminate eleven of the forty pension plans it funds due to its inability to cover retirement costs. The termination affecting 6800 current and retired employees; A-C plans to hand the pension plans over to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation(PBGC), an independent pension-insuring agency of the federal government.

1995 - Because of retirees outliving the expectations set by the A-C Consolidated Pension Plan's actuaries, the Plan experiences an $11.9 million underfunding that must be quickly refunded according to the Retirement Income Act of 1994. A-C makes a required contribution of $205,000 to the Plan as determined by the PBGC, but lacks the resources to make any more contributions.

http://austinfrederick.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/allis-chalmers-tractor-plant-closes/

Want it short? Unions with too much power, high wages, inflated pensions, and the bubble burst. Everyone loses now as the production in the US falters, the manufacturing moves overseas, jobs are lost, plants closed. That's unfair to everyone, because the greed turned into bleeding the companies dry, and they died. Now no one has a job.

And yes I agree that upper executives are overpaid. The joke is they get paid to come in with their two year plan and if they make good, I suspect most of the time, it's because the business would have been fine without them. If they fail, they get paid and a bonus and are shown the door. Only other job I can see where people get paid to be wrong 50% of the time, is weather forecasting.

But when you have 1000 employees getting $29 an hour, for 60 hours a week, that's 90 million dollars, add in insurance, pensions, the companies payment of half of the social security, workmen's comp. operation expenses, liability, OSHA, and other costs of doing business and you see what has been killing the employment market in the US.

Part of the problem for Allis Chalmers (and they aren't the only ones, just a perfect example) was high wages, automatic raises, pensions that were overly generous, promises that couldn't be met and kept because of investments and debt. The answer has been, everyone gets screwed. The company that's out of business, the investors, the workers, the people with pensions... everyone. All because of selfish short term greed.

qwerty · « **Reply #32 on:** January 05, 2013, 03:17 »

Quote from: lisafx on December 30, 2012, 11:52

Am I understanding correctly? Are you guys saying that pizza workers make $18.23/hour in Denmark and $17/hour in Australia??

Here they make minimum wage, which is $7.25/hour. Something is wrong with the US if we are paying this much behind the rest of the developed world.

Maybe I misunderstood?

Minium adult wage in Australia is AUD$15.96 per hour
There are lower wages for juniors which are the majority of workers in Pizza shop chains and Mcdonalds etc.

Under 16 years of age $5.87
At 16 years of age $7.55
At 17 years of age $9.22
At 18 years of age $10.90
At 19 years of age $13.17
At 20 years of age $15.59.

Doesn't taken an einstein to work out why mcdonalds employees as many juniors as they can.

Taxes are higher in Australia although if your earn less than $18200 no income tax.

JPSDK · « **Reply #33 on:** January 05, 2013, 03:48 »

What is your message, Race?

fotoVoyager · « **Reply #34 on:** January 05, 2013, 04:24 »

Of all the places I've been, Denmark is the place I'd choose to live and happily pay the taxes to make it like that.

Phil · « **Reply #35 on:** January 05, 2013, 08:44 »

Quote from: qwerty on January 05, 2013, 03:17

Quote from: lisafx on December 30, 2012, 11:52
Am I understanding correctly? Are you guys saying that pizza workers make $18.23/hour in Denmark and $17/hour in Australia??

Here they make minimum wage, which is $7.25/hour. Something is wrong with the US if we are paying this much behind the rest of the developed world.

Maybe I misunderstood?

Minium adult wage in Australia is AUD$15.96 per hour
There are lower wages for juniors which are the majority of workers in Pizza shop chains and Mcdonalds etc.

Under 16 years of age $5.87
At 16 years of age $7.55
At 17 years of age $9.22
At 18 years of age $10.90
At 19 years of age $13.17
At 20 years of age $15.59.

Doesn't taken an einstein to work out why mcdonalds employees as many juniors as they can.

Taxes are higher in Australia although if your earn less than $18200 no income tax.

my local pizza place employs only 18+ and they are employed as casuals so no holidays etc but get 20% extra on top of minimum wage. But as you say McDonalds likes their juniors and as well as high taxes, Australia isnt a tipping culture so you dont earn any tips, but everyone has medical etc. Like leaf says, just hourly rates alone aren't a good indicator.

JPSDK · « **Reply #36 on:** January 05, 2013, 09:57 »

Quote from: fotoVoyager on January 05, 2013, 04:24

Of all the places I've been, Denmark is the place I'd choose to live and happily pay the taxes to make it like that.

:-)

Mantis · « **Reply #37 on:** January 05, 2013, 10:03 »

Quote from: enstoker on December 29, 2012, 11:02

One pizza with bottarga and west Istrian olive oil, please.
(BTW, my tips are high)

Would you like wings with that and a diet Coke?

luissantos84 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 05, 2013, 10:50 »

the min wage in portugal isn't even 500 EUR (650$), we have nurses getting paid 4$ a hour lately...

lisafx · « **Reply #39 on:** January 05, 2013, 16:40 »

Quote from: JPSDK on January 05, 2013, 03:48

What is your message, Race?

If I read it correctly, boils down to workers and unions are greedy and evil and noble and well-intentioned corporations would be generous except they are victims of greedy workers.

tab62 · « **Reply #40 on:** January 05, 2013, 17:03 »

I never thought this string would go so deep in thought - and I got a negative -2 points so far thus even a negative thing can have some good

ShadySue · « **Reply #41 on:** January 05, 2013, 17:20 »

Quote from: leaf on December 30, 2012, 18:17

And here is a big difference - professionals don't earn any more in Norway than they do in Canada. A teacher or Nurse in Canada earns as much (or more) than a teacher or nurse in Norway. So the spread in wages is WAY more in Canada (and USA) than it is in Norway. A 'professional' will earn 1.5x more than a 'minimum wage' job in Norway, whereas in Canada the difference between a Walmart worker and teacher can be 4x+
so.. a professional in Norway has actually less purchasing power than a professional in Canada, but a 'minimum wage earner' has a LOT more purchasing power in Norway than Canada.

So how to they attract and more specifically retain people in e.g. nursing and teaching, both extremely stressful jobs, in different ways? Yes, there's probably more job satisfaction, but there are a lot of negatives to offset that.
Probably Norway has a totally different society, but in the UK indiscipline in schools is rife and attacks on medical staff are not uncommon. Teachers seem on the surface to work short hours, but many evenings, weekends and even days of holidays are taken up doing preparation and marking. (e.g. I once spent 5 10 hr days in the Easter Holidays making up a new unit, as well as other more casual work during the break).
Compared to doing your job then getting on with your life, 1.5x salary doesn't begin to compensate. All professionals have to update their knowledge and skills and keep up to date with changes in their professions, usually in their own time. There's a limited amount of that in unskilled jobs, and often training for that is done during paid for work time.
It's the difference between an hourly wage and an annual salary.
So how does that work out in Norway?

markrhiggins · « **Reply #42 on:** January 05, 2013, 17:27 »

Quote from: Phil on January 05, 2013, 08:44

Quote from: qwerty on January 05, 2013, 03:17
Quote from: lisafx on December 30, 2012, 11:52
Am I understanding correctly? Are you guys saying that pizza workers make $18.23/hour in Denmark and $17/hour in Australia??

Here they make minimum wage, which is $7.25/hour. Something is wrong with the US if we are paying this much behind the rest of the developed world.

Maybe I misunderstood?

Minium adult wage in Australia is AUD$15.96 per hour
There are lower wages for juniors which are the majority of workers in Pizza shop chains and Mcdonalds etc.

Under 16 years of age $5.87
At 16 years of age $7.55
At 17 years of age $9.22
At 18 years of age $10.90
At 19 years of age $13.17
At 20 years of age $15.59.

Doesn't taken an einstein to work out why mcdonalds employees as many juniors as they can.

Taxes are higher in Australia although if your earn less than $18200 no income tax.

my local pizza place employs only 18+ and they are employed as casuals so no holidays etc but get 20% extra on top of minimum wage. But as you say McDonalds likes their juniors and as well as high taxes, Australia isnt a tipping culture so you dont earn any tips, but everyone has medical etc. Like leaf says, just hourly rates alone aren't a good indicator.

In Australia a loaf of bread costs $1 for the supermarket brand $3.50 normal. No tax under $18,200 and it is welfare state here. Sales tax is 10%but not applied on basic food or medical. The employees get a compulsory 9% additional to their wage put into a superannuation account by the employer (separate to the employer's company). This reduces need for pensions at 65 years old paid for by government in future years.. My superannuation account had 21% put in by my employer and more separate to that by me. Companies "think" (not really because they are not people) very short term because companies are run by managers with very short term goals. This is the problem. Government needs to think long term as do individuals looking to their future.

The minimum wage in the US is embarrassing and the companies attitude to employees bewildering. Those of us from Australia also find the tipping ridiculous. It is like like a sympathy payment because the companies do not pay them a living wage. A "tip us or we starve"payment. Pay them a decent wage and add it to the price and cut the confusion. At a restaurant if the bill is $49.60 and you hand over $50 the waiter will happily dive into the till for change. Top class restaurants are more prone to tipping because it is more about image (of the tipper and the establishment).

JPSDK · « **Reply #43 on:** January 05, 2013, 17:53 »

sue..
Your questions are really hard to answer from a Scandinavian point of view.
it is like they (the questions) are not real and also mixed in a strange way.
Like the problems you suggest are not important here.

There are no problems retaining the workforce here.
Teaches work more than people think.
Excluded from the wage is (like in Australia) retirement and vacation money.
Keeping their knowledge updated is not a problem for teachers or nurses.

Ill be happy to answer any specifik question from you that I can understand.

cascoly · « **Reply #44 on:** January 05, 2013, 19:27 »

Quote from: lisafx on December 30, 2012, 11:52

Am I understanding correctly? Are you guys saying that pizza workers make $18.23/hour in Denmark and $17/hour in Australia??

Here they make minimum wage, which is $7.25/hour. Something is wrong with the US if we are paying this much behind the rest of the developed world.

Maybe I misunderstood?

nope, the US lags in many stats like this - we rank well under most 'advanced' countries for std of living factors like effective health care, infant mortality, education, wages, vacation time, health & safety standards

inequality in pay is enormous in US - the ratio of top 10% to lowest 10% in income is over 15 for the US, from 5-10 in europe [UN stats listed in wiki]

even productivity, where the US does ok is distorted because it tracks hours worked, not per worker, and US workers toil much longer for lower wages

JPSDK · « **Reply #45 on:** January 05, 2013, 19:29 »

The most interesting numbers are the health care expenses per capita.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_%28PPP%29_per_capita

cascoly · « **Reply #46 on:** January 05, 2013, 19:39 »

yes, and despite conventional 'thinking' in the US:

"adjusting for overall inflation, Medicare spending per beneficiary rose more than 400 percent from 1969 to 2009. But inflation-adjusted premiums on private health insurance rose more than 700 percent over the same period. So while it’s true that Medicare has done an inadequate job of controlling costs, the private sector has done much worse. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/13/opinion/13krugman.html

"public systems like Medicare and Medicaid, which have less bureaucracy than private insurers (if you can’t believe this, you’ve never had to deal with an insurance company) and greater bargaining power, are better than the private sector at controlling costs. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/31/opinion/Krugman.html?_r=0

JPSDK · « **Reply #47 on:** January 05, 2013, 19:41 »

Thats logical.
Private healthcare produce costs, since it has to produce profit.

and also interesting:
What about an educational system that has to be profitable. Does such a system educate talent or self sustaining wealth?
And how long does it take before so much talent is wasted that it affects the ability for a society to compete?

What was it with Japan and what is it with China and why did the steelworks close down in America?
Why do Americans drive Toyotas and surf with lenova computors.

lisafx · « **Reply #48 on:** January 05, 2013, 19:49 »

@Cascoly- You make some excellent points. I could not agree with you more.

Unfortunately, when roughly half the country (47% based on last election) doesn't get it, and those who do get it lack the backbone to stand up to the vocal minority, I don't hold out much hope for things improving here anytime soon.

I know how crappy things are here. I still never cease to be amazed by how much better things are in most of the developed world.

(sometimes I feel like I'm living in the Istock of countries

)

JPSDK · « **Reply #49 on:** January 05, 2013, 20:04 »

well you reelected Obama instead of another warmonger. Thats a good thing.

qwerty · « **Reply #50 on:** January 05, 2013, 21:37 »

Does elective cosmetic surgery count as $ spent on healthcare ??

Mantis · « **Reply #51 on:** January 06, 2013, 10:29 »

Quote from: JPSDK on January 05, 2013, 20:04

well you reelected Obama instead of another warmonger. Thats a good thing.

Hardly. Obama is going to effectively bankrupt this country, making our dollar worthless.

JPSDK · « **Reply #52 on:** January 06, 2013, 11:24 »

Quote from: Mantis on January 06, 2013, 10:29

Quote from: JPSDK on January 05, 2013, 20:04
well you reelected Obama instead of another warmonger. Thats a good thing.
Hardly. Obama is going to effectively bankrupt this country, making our dollar worthless.

You were bankrupt before Obama, he has only kept the ship sailing.

And You need to cut down on health care expenses, it is far too expensive as it is now. Only half of the people get treated and it is very expensive.
You need a cheap public system that doesnt produce sickness for profit.
Because, and it is logic. If sickness is profitable, the system works towards making everybody sick.

Just one thing. There is also military and education.

Mantis · « **Reply #53 on:** January 06, 2013, 12:53 »

Quote from: JPSDK on January 06, 2013, 11:24

Quote from: Mantis on January 06, 2013, 10:29
Quote from: JPSDK on January 05, 2013, 20:04
well you reelected Obama instead of another warmonger. Thats a good thing.
Hardly. Obama is going to effectively bankrupt this country, making our dollar worthless.

You were bankrupt before Obama, he has only kept the ship sailing.

And You need to cut down on health care expenses, it is far too expensive as it is now. Only half of the people get treated and it is very expensive.
You need a cheap public system that doesnt produce sickness for profit.
Because, and it is logic. If sickness is profitable, the system works towards making everybody sick.

Just one thing. There is also military and education.

It's the difference between socialism and capitalism, of which you prefer we become socialists. I don't. But at this point I guess it's best to not get into politics as I am not here for that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and all of us have to live under the umbrella of what we are democratically dealt. Not shunning you off Jens, just probably should have not responded to this thread in the way I did. One of my 2013 resolutions is to be more photo heavy and less "other stuff".

cascoly · « **Reply #54 on:** January 06, 2013, 13:33 »

Quote from: Mantis on January 06, 2013, 12:53

It's the difference between socialism and capitalism, of which you prefer we become socialists. I don't. But at this point I guess it's best to not get into politics as I am not here for that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and all of us have to live under the umbrella of what we are democratically dealt. Not shunning you off Jens, just probably should have not responded to this thread in the way I did. One of my 2013 resolutions is to be more photo heavy and less "other stuff".

problem is the US is already part socialist - for corporations, we're capitalist when they succeed, but socialist when they fail and we bail them out with taxpayer money. we should have let most of the banks fail.

socialism also describes our price supports for farming, timber, oil, mining and other industries that never have to face a real market; not to mention guaranteeing insurance for people who build on flood plains
other 'easy' solutions that would help:

when a bank or other company fails, stockholders should suffer the effects of a free market and they get nothing. bond holder should then become stoxckholders. if govt money is required, the govt should also make a profit if the compasny returns to health. instead we gave billions to failed banks and they paid it out in obscene bonuses

finally, bank and other CEOs should face criminal charges when they fraudulently publish fake anual reports that hide their true risks and losses.

RacePhoto · « **Reply #55 on:** January 09, 2013, 21:05 »

Quote from: cascoly on January 06, 2013, 13:33

finally, bank and other CEOs should face criminal charges when they fraudulently publish fake annual reports that hide their true risks and losses.

I hope you don't mind, I clipped the politics and left the significant line. Bravo, these people should be exposed, prosecuted, fined and jailed, just like Bernie Madoff. They were just as much criminals as he was!

gostwyck · « **Reply #56 on:** January 09, 2013, 21:26 »

Quote from: RacePhoto on January 09, 2013, 21:05

Quote from: cascoly on January 06, 2013, 13:33

finally, bank and other CEOs should face criminal charges when they fraudulently publish fake annual reports that hide their true risks and losses.

I hope you don't mind, I clipped the politics and left the significant line. Bravo, these people should be exposed, prosecuted, fined and jailed, just like Bernie Madoff. They were just as much criminals as he was!

... and the 'auditors' too, surely? CEO's can only report on stuff that has passed by their auditors first. It's the auditor's job to establish the truth ... not to just accept that a bunch of CFD's is worth billions of dollars because the CEO says so.

cascoly · « **Reply #57 on:** January 10, 2013, 03:33 »

for anyone interested in more details on just what a mess this is, try this month's atlantic magazine:

"
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What’s Inside America’s Banks?

Some four years after the 2008 financial crisis, public trust in banks is as low as ever. Sophisticated investors describe big banks as “black boxes” that may still be concealing enormous risks—the sort that could again take down the economy. A close investigation of a supposedly conservative bank’s financial records uncovers the reason for these fears—and points the way toward urgent reforms.
"

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/01/whats-inside-americas-banks/309196/

nobel economic prize winners like krugman and stiglitz have been saying this for years, but they've been ignored

today's NY times had yet another article on how banking regulators have let banks get away with a slap on the wrist

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