Author Topic: Finding a partner (Read 5642 times)

ShadySue · « **Reply #25 on:** April 28, 2010, 11:01 »

Quote from: sharply_done on April 28, 2010, 00:15

Quote from: madelaide on April 27, 2010, 21:54
Quote from: sjlocke on April 27, 2010, 20:05
Exactly. Vacation snaps.
Just because they are photos taken in a vacation trip, do they deserve the "snap" classification?

Unless he went there to shoot specific things for the commercial marketplace, yes, they're just vacation shots, and income expectations should be adjusted accordingly.

Well, my "vacation snaps", as you and Sean would call them, from Canada have paid for the trip, including airfares from Scotland, so don't knock it.
Pity the market isn't so interested in Uganda and Botswana

, but there you have it.

@Sean: while I respect your knowledge and experience (in your own highly successful genre) and your willingness to share readily though testily, I really have to wonder about your attitude towards genres other than your own. What in the OP's port at iStock, for example, would lead you to think he'd be submitting 'snapshots'?
Many people travel specifically with the intention of shooting many images, not to 'vacation'. Long before I submitted for stock, I always considered my trips as 'working at a different job'.
Also, people who have full-time jobs and photograph on trips probably don't need to earn as much as those who are full time stock photographers, therefore can 'afford' to photograph the more interesting and enjoyable stuff, even though the other stuff often sells much better, especially on the micros.

Sean Locke Photography · « **Reply #26 on:** April 28, 2010, 11:19 »

Quote from: madelaide on April 27, 2010, 21:54

Quote from: sjlocke on April 27, 2010, 20:05
Exactly. Vacation snaps.
Just because they are photos taken in a vacation trip, do they deserve the "snap" classification?

I don't expect 20,000 images from a vacation to be masterpieces. The only way to shoot that many is to walk around shooting stuff you come upon.

Freezingpictures · « **Reply #27 on:** April 28, 2010, 11:43 »

Surpasspro, I send you a PM

ann · « **Reply #28 on:** April 28, 2010, 11:55 »

Sounds like a nice deal for you, but thinking long-term - it seems unlikely good business person & photoshoper would find it worth (even 100% of) commission of possible sales to photoshop someone else's fine photos, unless:

photos are historically significant or unique in other way
it's part of well-honed business such as Yuri's
person's closely related to photographer

The reason you've wisely determined this photo-preparation is not priority for your limited, valuable time is probably similar to reason why lawyers work on contingency fees only on carefully picked cases most likely to win and get large settlement.

surpasspro · « **Reply #29 on:** April 28, 2010, 12:40 »

The person I'm considering is family related so there is a level of trust there. I have a meeting setup with him and will gauge his interest with all the pros/cons/risks laid out. I might have to hire someone full time, but I'm trying this route first.

In the last 3 years, I've traveled to close to 30 countries and all the continents. Most of it with my day time job photographing most major cities and photo shoots with models in those cities. Also, throw in photos from personal vacation trips. So, I haven't submitted much in a couple of years, due to traveling and time constraints. I've also been focusing more on stock video production to diversify my port, (which is time consuming), so that's why I'm sitting on a back log of images.

The number of shots taken in Antarctica was extreme, but if you've been there you would know why. I also managed to shoot close to 450 HD video clips on that trip as well. As ShadySue mentioned, I've paid for many of vacations with my "photo/video snaps".

cascoly · « **Reply #30 on:** April 28, 2010, 13:36 »

Quote from: madelaide on April 27, 2010, 21:54

Quote from: sjlocke on April 27, 2010, 20:05
Exactly. Vacation snaps.
Just because they are photos taken in a vacation trip, do they deserve the "snap" classification?

it was a snap comment and thus worth about that much consideration

travel is of course a competitive field, but it's certainly worth pursuing.

s

cascoly · « **Reply #31 on:** April 28, 2010, 13:39 »

Quote from: grp_photo on April 27, 2010, 16:22

A fair partnership is always 50:50 to me. That is also the reason I consider agencies that pay less than 50% as unfair.

? what if the risk, work, etc isnt split 50-50 -- similarly, a blanket statement that an agency rate is unfair makes little sense without knowing what's involved. by your method, exclsives should be paid the same % as freelancers, since 50-50 is 'always' fair

when agencies offer 60-70% do you insist on taking only 50% because that's the only split that's fair?

steve

Pixart · « **Reply #32 on:** April 28, 2010, 15:45 »

I seem to be the odd man out, but why would you pay a percentage for perpetuity? Why not 12 or 24 months? What happens when you die, who does the copyright revert to? Your kids will wind up in court with his kids. I'd pay a one-time per photo accepted rate, and maby a bonus at every 100 he gets accepted. Or an hourly fee.

ShadySue · « **Reply #33 on:** April 28, 2010, 15:52 »

Quote from: surpasspro on April 28, 2010, 12:40

The person I'm considering is family related so there is a level of trust there.

"Family...trust" isn't necessarily a sequitur. Lawyers make their money out of family trust being broken. Or as my late mother-in-law's lawyer said, "... family's all well and good until the bawbees hit the bucket".

surpasspro · « **Reply #34 on:** April 28, 2010, 16:02 »

I guess I'm trusting that with access to my account that he won't cash my money and take off or misuse my images. You still have to trust a third party service or someone you hire, so relying on family is not a bad thing.

I would still have copyright to my images, but I will probably have to limit the amount of time a royalty can be earned.

madelaide · « **Reply #35 on:** April 28, 2010, 16:27 »

Quote from: sjlocke on April 28, 2010, 11:19

Quote from: madelaide on April 27, 2010, 21:54
Quote from: sjlocke on April 27, 2010, 20:05
Exactly. Vacation snaps.
Just because they are photos taken in a vacation trip, do they deserve the "snap" classification?
I don't expect 20,000 images from a vacation to be masterpieces. The only way to shoot that many is to walk around shooting stuff you come upon.

Many people try to sell "travel snapshots" (SP has hundreds), but calling any photo taken in a travel trip as "snapshots" is ridiculous.

I my own case, I normally travel on my own, rarely taking a tour, so I have my own time. I plan my day ahead, and I often return to an interesting place at different time if I can. So it's not This is the Big Ben, click, click, Westminster Abbey, click, click. My travemates are normally people who like photography, even if not so passionate as I am.

In the film days, I could easily spend a roll in one day (on occasions even more). Now with digital it's much more, I experiment more, shoot vertical and horizontal, extra details of architecture, bracketing (what I rarely do). Not unusually I take over 100 images a day - surely not all keepers.

Oh, yes, I sold many as RM - could sell more if I had the time and the patience of editing and keywording all of them.

qwerty · « **Reply #36 on:** April 28, 2010, 17:16 »

I would suggest agreeing on an average time that should be spent on each photo in order to get it up to scratch, come to an agreement on price and make a one off payment, otherwise it could get really hard to track to the end of time, gives you flexibility to do what every you want with the images in the future.

cuppacoffee · « **Reply #37 on:** April 28, 2010, 19:26 »

Why not give this person say, 100 images to start out with and then discuss a price after he analyzes how much work is involved. I do contract photoshop work and prefer to charge a per-project price after I analyze the time it takes to finish the job. Upload those 100 and see if they pass review and how they sell, then proceed from there. If he is a really good photoshop artist and you are a really good photographer with images that don't need much editing letting him set a price will satisfy you both. I would worry more about turning over the keywording to him.

Imagecom · « **Reply #38 on:** May 06, 2010, 03:03 »

My soon us to help me (not any more) but than was great help. I have offered him all the profit above a certain level.

Oldhand · « **Reply #39 on:** May 06, 2010, 03:57 »

Hi there - to chip in from the "other side" so to speak.

I started my own photo agency over 10 years ago after 10 years with two larger agencies, specializing in travel photographs. I never actually travelled anywhere, I simply had a look at photographers with large collections of pictures on the internet of marketable material.

They were all gathering dust on the hard drives, and the photographers had no idea how to sell them. My arragement was simple. The photographer sent me all the pics on CD's with the files named to I could identify where they were from. I did all the photoshop work (I'm a one man band 80 hrs a week), and captioned the pics for sale. They were then syndicated to all my outlets - 20 or so macro agencies in different countries, and directly to the UK press.

I then kept track of sales, got cuttings where possible, and paid 50:50 to the photographer reported every three months. This I did for 20 or so photographers, however as time has gone on the editorial market wasn't as lucrative, so some have given up or gone their own way. I never sent any to Alamy, as I did't deal with them at the time.

Most agencies I sell with have a 60:40 split, so the snapper was getting 30%. With UK media, they were getting 50%

It was worthwhile, and would probably be more so nowadays as Alamy sell's a huge volume of travel pics.

Over the last three years I diversified with my own images into micro as well, which is again lucrative.

I would not take on any more images just for Alamy, but would if the deal was going to beneficial for all concerned. As an example, I' would photoshop and upload all your images to Alamy, and you can keep 100% of sales with no fee's invloved for the work. The same photographs you would then allow me to syndicate to oversea's agents and or micro for a share of the profit's.

That's an issue to outside of this site, and I'd be happy to discuss it with you. Alternatively when my esteemed colleagues have finished debating wether they are holiday pictures or not they may be able to point you in an alternative direction.

I'll check in on this thread later, off to vote in the UK election now!

Rgds

Oldhand

gostwyck · « **Reply #40 on:** May 06, 2010, 07:01 »

You might have 'thousands of images' on your HD but it is almost inconceivable that a high proportion of them are both unique and have significant stock potential.

When I do a month-long trip for stock purposes I might take 5000 images (including bracketing for tricky conditions, etc). Out of those maybe 200-odd will eventually be uploaded. If I can average 7 new stock images per day, including the loss of some days due to poor weather, then the trip will probably have a payback period of 1-2 years. Of those that I do upload it is likely that 60-80% will effectively bomb. Almost all the money is in the top 20% of the uploaded images __ and that's just 40 images out of the original 5000 or less than 1%. Although there will always be some surprises most of the images with serious sales potential will be fairly obvious to anyone who understands a little about stock.

I reckon that success at stock is something like 70% knowledge of the market, 15% photography and 15% PS skills in optimising images. Your friend might know a bit about PS but if he doesn't understand anything about stock, in knowing which images to select and then how to crop and present them optimised for sale, then most of his efforts are likely to be in vain.

You should be able to identify most of the 1% of your images that are likely to have potential and processing those yourself won't actually take too long. IMHO it is unlikely that you could come up with a compensation package for your friend that is attractive to him, fair and would actually work out economically. Stock is always a risk in that future sales are always an unknown quantity and it would be unfair to dump any of that risk on your friend unless he truly understands stock __ in which case he'd be far better off doing it for himself.

etienjones · « **Reply #41 on:** May 06, 2010, 07:10 »

^^

That was as precise and pointed as I have heard so far . . . well done.

Microbius · « **Reply #42 on:** May 06, 2010, 08:02 »

It sounds to me like if you offer a 50% split on the profits it would be an excellent deal for you as your partner will assume all the risk.
Oldhand's offer sounds even better as he/she sounds like they have plenty of experience in the market.
People can debate if the images are likely to sell all day; there's an easy way to find out-- go for it! You have nothing to lose as all the work will be undertaken by others and it could prove to be good earner for them too.
It's bound to be better then letting the images sit on your hard drive!

brookefuller · « **Reply #43 on:** May 06, 2010, 14:34 »

Have you thought about getting a student intern? You can trade your skills (and have an assistant on hand!) for their time. I know when I was a student I did lots of this kind of work for photographers, both paid and for knowledge.

Jonathan Ross · « **Reply #44 on:** May 08, 2010, 16:24 »

Hi Surpaspro,

I really think it is better in your situation to do the editing for what you know the market will need and then have an out source do them for a per image cost. Lookstat is a good choice. Rahul there could also give you feed back on the work before you spend money on the processing, he has a great deal of knowledge about what will and won't sell in the Micro market place.
I would totally stay away from a percentage deal and pay for the cost of the salable images yourself. You might need a good editor more than someone to upload at first.

Gostywk,

200 photos from a months travel work. Are you sure those are the correct numbers, they seem a bit low to me.

Good Luck,
Jonathan

sharply_done · « **Reply #45 on:** May 08, 2010, 17:07 »

Quote from: Jonathan Ross on May 08, 2010, 16:24

...
200 photos from a months travel work. Are you sure those are the correct numbers, they seem a bit low to me.
...

That sounds about right from my experience, although his payback is perhaps a little longer than it might be. He's talking about taking advantage of "found" images, not doing pre-arranged (model) shoots - a pretty a good plan for a working vacation that suits the microstock marketplace quite well.

Jonathan Ross · « **Reply #46 on:** May 09, 2010, 10:34 »

Hi Sharply,

Yes I realize it is without models, even an easier way to make a lot of pictures while traveling but if you are happy with 200 photos from a months work that is cool. I was actually asking Gostywk but if you think his numbers are right then thanks for the advice. That works out to 6.5 photos a day without people to me that seems like a small number as he was saying when he goes on the road for a months long trip for ( stock purposes ), not about it being a vacation.
Just thought the numbers were low but not trying to put anyone down. From what I have heard on here I thought they might be a little greater in number for Micro. The cost of the travel must just barely be covered by the time the images are done selling but I suppose it is how cheap you can travel, how thrifty you are as well as how far you travel ( lots of variables ). I shoot locations a lot and I find them easier than shoots you have to choreograph with a crew and models and cost of locations. Locations alone are way cheaper for me to produce. I think they are more fun to, just you and the camera

Thanks,
Jonathan

dimol · « **Reply #47 on:** May 09, 2010, 11:54 »

surpasspro, why don't you try to go with production agencies which submit images not only to Alamy, but to many partner macrostock agencies (including Corbis, Getty) simultaneously. As far as I know they take your RAW files, postprocess them, keyword (you supply only captions) and submit. But, of course, you pay them more than 40%. That is the way many photographers work.
Alamy alone is very time consuming...