MicrostockGroup
Microstock Photography Forum - General => General Stock Discussion => Topic started by: PowerDroid on January 11, 2010, 13:21
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This is a follow-up to another thread that ended up discussing the proper way for a contributor's family or other survivors to retrieve royalties after a contributor's death. Since it's pretty important information, I felt it deserved its own thread.
Here's the question I posed to SS, IS, FT and DT:
"What options do the family of a deceased contributor have for continuing to benefit from sales of the deceased's work? For instance, I have given my wife instructions for logging in to each microstock agency where I maintain a portfolio so she may continue to monitor and request payments, but for tax purposes, it would seem that an official change would have to be made (payee name, social security number, etc.) What is your preferred course of action for the survivor of a contributor? Will you need to see some kind of documentation that the contributor intended his spouse/child/other executor to modify the account after the contributor's death?"
I will post the answers in this thread as I receive them.
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Here is a response from Dreamstime:
"Thank you for contacting us. We would need the proper legal documentation that the account rights were given to the other person. This can only be done after a death has taken place."
Kind Regards,
NAME
Customer Service Manager
MY FOLLOW-UP QUESTION:
"So, just to clarify, you would require a will or some other legal document that explicitly states that it was the deceased's intent to change the account information into the intended survivor's name?
Does this routinely happen?"
ANSWER:
"Yes, we would need the supporting legal documents for this, such as a will. In the history of Dreamstime, it has only happened once so far."
Kind Regards,
NAME
Customer Service Manager
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Great info and help thanks for the post. You can also build a company and not have it controlled by your family and yourself this will also avoid inheritance tax. At least in the U.S.
Best,
Jonathan
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I think the main thing is having your family know where you have your photos for sale, so they can put this in the legal paperwork regarding your estate. The more details, the better (agency, site, ID).
I believe no agency will change rights based on a copy of a will only - they will always require an official document signed by a judge or some authority, and this will have to be translated by authorized professionals if your country is not English-speaking.
It may sound absurd, but I was told that even between Brazil and Portugal, documents must be "translated" by an authorized professional to have legal value.
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Here is a response from Dreamstime:
"Thank you for contacting us. We would need the proper legal documentation that the account rights were given to the other person. This can only be done after a death has taken place."
Kind Regards,
NAME
Customer Service Manager
MY FOLLOW-UP QUESTION:
"So, just to clarify, you would require a will or some other legal document that explicitly states that it was the deceased's intent to change the account information into the intended survivor's name?
Does this routinely happen?"
ANSWER:
"Yes, we would need the supporting legal documents for this, such as a will. In the history of Dreamstime, it has only happened once so far."
Kind Regards,
NAME
Customer Service Manager
That is almost unbelievable. Only ONE contributor has died over all these years?
I'm wondering if there should not be a way to file documents with the agency, instructing them what should be done with our images upon our death.
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There are proubably more, but the survivors don't know how to go about getting the royalties so they don't bother. Of course the stock agency isn't going to question why a contributors earning's haven't been collected for awhie when no new uploads have been done but sales are still being produced.
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Here is a response from Dreamstime:
"Thank you for contacting us. We would need the proper legal documentation that the account rights were given to the other person. This can only be done after a death has taken place."
Kind Regards,
NAME
Customer Service Manager
MY FOLLOW-UP QUESTION:
"So, just to clarify, you would require a will or some other legal document that explicitly states that it was the deceased's intent to change the account information into the intended survivor's name?
Does this routinely happen?"
ANSWER:
"Yes, we would need the supporting legal documents for this, such as a will. In the history of Dreamstime, it has only happened once so far."
Kind Regards,
NAME
Customer Service Manager
I am assuming that the "once" was Robert "The MIZ" who had a large portfolio there. I have always been curious as to what happened to his portfolios. At one point prior to his death I even recall his suggesting he'd sell all of his images to someone for something like 35K ...
I am curious if anyone knows how it was handled or if it was kept a private mattter ...
-Mark
http://markwpayne.wordpress.com (http://markwpayne.wordpress.com)
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Here is a response from Dreamstime:
"Thank you for contacting us. We would need the proper legal documentation that the account rights were given to the other person. This can only be done after a death has taken place."
Kind Regards,
NAME
Customer Service Manager
MY FOLLOW-UP QUESTION:
"So, just to clarify, you would require a will or some other legal document that explicitly states that it was the deceased's intent to change the account information into the intended survivor's name?
Does this routinely happen?"
ANSWER:
"Yes, we would need the supporting legal documents for this, such as a will. In the history of Dreamstime, it has only happened once so far."
Kind Regards,
NAME
Customer Service Manager
That is almost unbelievable. Only ONE contributor has died over all these years?
I'm wondering if there should not be a way to file documents with the agency, instructing them what should be done with our images upon our death.
Dreamstime dates from 2003 (?) so all those years = 6-7 years... I sure hope I won't be dead in another 6-7 years.
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Not just one dead, one whose heirs presented to legalize the account.
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Not just one dead, one whose heirs presented to legalize the account.
Good Point.
-Mark
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Here is a response from Dreamstime:
"Thank you for contacting us. We would need the proper legal documentation that the account rights were given to the other person. This can only be done after a death has taken place."
Kind Regards,
NAME
Customer Service Manager
MY FOLLOW-UP QUESTION:
"So, just to clarify, you would require a will or some other legal document that explicitly states that it was the deceased's intent to change the account information into the intended survivor's name?
Does this routinely happen?"
ANSWER:
"Yes, we would need the supporting legal documents for this, such as a will. In the history of Dreamstime, it has only happened once so far."
Kind Regards,
NAME
Customer Service Manager
That is almost unbelievable. Only ONE contributor has died over all these years?
I'm wondering if there should not be a way to file documents with the agency, instructing them what should be done with our images upon our death.
Dreamstime dates from 2003 (?) so all those years = 6-7 years... I sure hope I won't be dead in another 6-7 years.
6-7 years times several hundred thousand contributors adds up to a bunch of people. I suspect more than one contributor has died. Any ideas on how those accounts should be handled? Is it like contributors who never reach the payout limit? Are their unsold files place in the FREE folder?
Just thinking out loud. :P
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I would hope not, wouldn't the copyright to the images pass on to the decendents along with the rest of the estate? That would mean the agency has to keep the income seperate in case they come knocking with the correct documents.
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I would imagine that that commercial stock images would have to be treated like any other asset in an estate or will. The will or the estate would state who is to take possession of such assets. The actual transfer ... no therein lies the hard part as you have to get the actual agencies cooperation.
I would also imagine that it is possible stock images are often overlooked as assets or deemed not worth the effort to pursue the transfer ... especially if the value of a stock portfolio is misrepresented or misunderstood.
-Mark
http://markwpayne.wordpress.com (http://markwpayne.wordpress.com)
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6-7 years times several hundred thousand contributors adds up to a bunch of people. I suspect more than one contributor has died. Any ideas on how those accounts should be handled? Is it like contributors who never reach the payout limit? Are their unsold files place in the FREE folder?
Just thinking out loud. :P
Dreamstime only has 83,000+ contributors, not hundreds of thousands - but your point still stands, it is surprising it hasn't happened more often. Perhaps the one case was Miz? I am guessing most people who just dabble in microstock with a few pictures wouldn't bother notifying the family or having it in a will that their pictures are online and sales are accruing.
With everyone's increased online activity it is going to be more and more of a headache when people die. There could be a ton of untied ends.
Thanks for finding out this info PowerDroid - it is valuable information!
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re: Miz - he had someone in charge of it after his death. AFAIK his earnings are collected by someone and passed to his family. I'm 99.9999% sure he took care of it and I have spoken to that friend once or twice.
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Here's the response from iStock:
Thank you very much for your message.
I can only speak for the policy of iStockphoto.
We understand this is a delicate or sensitive subject matter, the account can continue but we will require some legal documentation.
A person can will copyright of their images to anyone. If this is the case, iStockphoto will require a copy of the legal will stating the person who is to inherit copyright, and a copy of a death certificate. Once these are reviewed to be legit, we will need a photo ID of the new copyright holder, and the account will be transfered into that person's name. The account can remain active, and royalties can continue to be paid out in the new person's name.
If copyright of images is not specifically mentioned in a legal will, we will require a letter from the executor of the estate stating the person who is to inherit copyright of the images, along with the death certificate, and photo ID of the new copyright holder.
Please let us know if you have any questions.
Sincerely,
NAME
iStockphoto LP
Contributor Relations
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Thanks PD for this. It's both interesting and a useful reminder to ensure that the will is kept up to date.
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What IS replied would not be valid in Brazil, I suppose. After someone dies, there is a juditial procedure to determine heirs and their share in the deceased's estate. Just because someone has a copy of a will, this doesn't mean it was the last one from the deceased or even if there is not something else making this will invalid (such as a child born after the will was written). Then after all the juditial procedures are followed, the judge will order the issue of proper documentation, so the heirs can transfer their share of the estate.
Or is the "legal will' something else that a "will"?
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What IS replied would not be valid in Brazil, I suppose. After someone dies, there is a juditial procedure to determine heirs and their share in the deceased's estate. Just because someone has a copy of a will, this doesn't mean it was the last one from the deceased or even if there is not something else making this will invalid (such as a child born after the will was written). Then after all the juditial procedures are followed, the judge will order the issue of proper documentation, so the heirs can transfer their share of the estate.
Or is the "legal will' something else that a "will"?
Hmmm. I'd assume the agency would apply 'the law' in its own country __ once the deceased executors have worked out according to their own laws who the beneficiary is to be.
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Hmmm. I'd assume the agency would apply 'the law' in its own country __ once the deceased executors have worked out according to their own laws who the beneficiary is to be.
But is this normal to accept simply a copy of the will as a proof of right?
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As of present I am going through a battle with the wicked stepmother of my fathers estate. And I might mention a very costly battle!! There was no will. Now the concern is this. When this estate is settled the monies will be divided equally between five children. Now if this person had an account with royalties, it would have to be divided amoungst five children. The copyrights would have to be divided amongst five children. I doubt a stock agency would do that seeing how they want to move the copyright to only one person.
Now if there was a will these royalties would have to be willed to one heir not amounst all heirs. Now am I right on this? or would there be a way around it. This could be more complex than it sounds
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As of present I am going through a battle with the wicked stepmother of my fathers estate. And I might mention a very costly battle!! There was no will. Now the concern is this. When this estate is settled the monies will be divided equally between five children. Now if this person had an account with royalties, it would have to be divided amoungst five children. The copyrights would have to be divided amongst five children. I doubt a stock agency would do that seeing how they want to move the copyright to only one person.
Now if there was a will these royalties would have to be willed to one heir not amounst all heirs. Now am I right on this? or would there be a way around it. This could be more complex than it sounds
I can't answer your specific question, and circumstances may vary by country. Maybe this is an argument for being independent, have a lucky dip where each child picks out an agency and that's theirs. You'd need to have the same number of agencies as beneficiaries, and if one folds, it's the 'luck of the draw'.
Just a thought.
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donding, sorry for the problems.
I believe the copyright isn't changed, the heirs only have the rights to receive the earnings and negotiate the images (or whatever is the copyrighted material). Isn't it so?
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donding, sorry for the problems.
I believe the copyright isn't changed, the heirs only have the rights to receive the earnings and negotiate the images (or whatever is the copyrighted material). Isn't it so?
This battle over my father's estate has been going on over a year now. Anyway as for copyright I believe the rights are left to heirs through the executor of the estate. I think that's how it works. I know my Aunt was the executor of my grandmothers estate and she ended up with the copyrights to a book that was published. I nassume it would be the same for photos.
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Sorry to hear about your situation Donding. I have a step-mother like that too. My father is in late stages of a degenerative illness so I imagine I will be facing a similar nightmare in the future.
Thanks, Powerdroid, for starting this thread. This is very good information to have.
I had figured I would be covered because I have a corporation and my husband is VP, but my accounts and copyrights are still in my name. Maybe I should change them to be in my corporations name?
I don't even have a will. Just assumed that everything I have will go to my husband if I die or our (only) child if we are both dead. Sounds like a will would really simplify things as far as the stock royalties go.
God, I hate dealing with lawyers. Guess I'm going to have to, though.
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Sorry to hear about your situation Donding. I have a step-mother like that too. My father is in late stages of a degenerative illness so I imagine I will be facing a similar nightmare in the future.
Thanks, Powerdroid, for starting this thread. This is very good information to have.
I had figured I would be covered because I have a corporation and my husband is VP, but my accounts and copyrights are still in my name. Maybe I should change them to be in my corporations name?
I don't even have a will. Just assumed that everything I have will go to my husband if I die or our (only) child if we are both dead. Sounds like a will would really simplify things as far as the stock royalties go.
God, I hate dealing with lawyers. Guess I'm going to have to, though.
Thanks lisafx...this probate has been a nightmare. If she had agreed to give his kids what are rightfully theirs rather than saying each of his kids should be happy with one thing and the grandkids didn't need anything. She has four kids from a previous marriage also and they are more evil than she is. I can't believe she even thinks its alright not to give his kids what is theirs even what he owned before their marrriage. I guess she tought we were all stupid and were going to let everthing go to her kids upon her death. I better drop that subject before I write a book on it.
Anyway you might want to talk to your lawyer about the copyright thing. I don't know how copyrights pertain to a corporation, but I know if you desolve the corporation the debt goes to the shareholder if its a S corp.
Heh also you better talk to the lawyer about writing up a will also at the same time. Believe me your heir will thank you for it....kinda ironic but I haven't gotten a will yet either...lol
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Thanks for the excellent advice Donding. :)
Wishing you all the best in this (unfair!) battle you have on your hands.
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yeah, transferring accounts and copyright would be much simpler if we opened the stock accounts as a business entity (not a personal business) Norway, like Brasil (by what it sounds like) has strict rules of who you can and cannot specify as beneficiaries of your will. A certain percent HAS to go to your family, wife, kids etc. which is quite different than in Canada where you can leave everything to a friend or a non-profit organization if you want. It is a problem here in Norway when 5 kids have to split a house. If 4 of the kids don't want to keep the house and one does, that one has to buy the other 4 out - something that they often can't afford. So they have to sell the house and all take their share of the money.
If 5 kids, or even 2 kids had to split a image rights.... boy what a mess. Personally I like the Canadian system better. People should be able to leave what they want to who they want.
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Leaf,
Here in Brazil you can set in a will up to 50% of your estate to whoever you want, but 50% belong to the legal heirs - some in fact, like spouse and children. I, for instance, without either, can leave my money to anyone and my brothers and nephews, and even my mother, would not get anything. It is fair or unfair, depending on the case.
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I don't even have a will. Just assumed that everything I have will go to my husband if I die or our (only) child if we are both dead. Sounds like a will would really simplify things as far as the stock royalties go.
God, I hate dealing with lawyers. Guess I'm going to have to, though.
Lisa, I hate to point out again the horrible possibility of both your husband and child, or all three of you dying in e.g. a car accident or house fire etc. Unless you really don't care who would inherit in these circumstances, you should think about making a will.
In case that sounds smug, my husband and my sister are my beneficiaries with no fallback, but they're seldom in the same place at the same time. Not outwith the bounds of possibilty, though. I'm not sure who I should fallback my port to: my parents (who I guess would be the legal fallback beneficiaries in general terms) have never had or used a computer, and would be unlikely to start. Would a charity consider it too much hassle? Maybe I should look into that.
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Can someone clarify to me!
Do I need to make some document before my eventual death, as a last will or testament...??
Or relatives can prove family connection after my death without my testament, and get my portfolio as their own from that moment?
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Here is Shutterstock's reply to the question... starting to look like the agencies are in agreement on this issue:
"Thank you for writing in.
Your portfolio may be transferred over to a beneficiary. Mention that in your
Will and have that reviewed and approved by a lawyer.
When it comes time, your beneficiary would approach us with the necessary
paperwork for account transfer to take place. Please be aware that
Shutterstock does honor the instructions of Estate representatives."
Best regards,
NAME
Shutterstock Support
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And finally, here's Fotolia's response... pretty much the same as the other three I asked (DT, IS, SS):
"While Fotolia has had no formal policy on this issue we do concur that copyrights may be inherited and the new copyright holder will have all the rights in and to the image. Our Upload Agreement states ""This Agreement shall be inure to the benefit of, and be binding upon, Fotolia and the Uploading Member, and their respective successors and assigns."
If such an unfortunate event did happen we would ask to see documents pertaining to the death and the inheritance of the copyright before access could be given to the account or the money earned. In addition the new owner would have to file the appropriate tax form before cashing out the earnings.
We will be happy to answer any other questions related to this issue if needed."
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But what will happen if I am killed in a car accident without last will document?
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But what will happen if I am killed in a car accident without last will document?
That's bound to depend on what the laws are in your country about people who die intestate.
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But what will happen if I am killed in a car accident without last will document?
That's bound to depend on what the laws are in your country about people who die intestate.
But the heirs, whoever their are, must know you have the agencies selling your images, or they will never claim these accounts. My family, for instance, hs a vague idea about this business.
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But what will happen if I am killed in a car accident without last will document?
If you live in the US you have to go through probate, even with a will, but if you die without one the courts have to decide where the money and how much go to the different heirs. It is quite an expensive process if you have heirs fighting over what they feel is theirs, it also depends on what state you live in. Like I said in a pervious post, we have already spent $12,000.00 and are not even done with the battle yet. Probate can cost upwards of $20,000.00 to $50,000.00 depending on the complexity of the estate. So to sum it up....you better get a will, it's not nearly as costly, only a filing fee and that's about it.
So get a will.
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Lisa, I hate to point out again the horrible possibility of both your husband and child, or all three of you dying in e.g. a car accident or house fire etc. Unless you really don't care who would inherit in these circumstances, you should think about making a will.
To be honest, if my husband, daughter, and I all died together I couldn't care less what happens to my portfolio, or anything else for that matter.
My parents are both remarried and well off enough not to need my stock income, and I don't have any siblings.
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In the U.S., the key to avoiding all this hassle is to have a Revocable Living Trust. In this document you set up a trust where all your assets are recorded in the name of the trust and the trustees assigned (usually yourself and spouse). You can then assign heirs to the trust and someone to act as executor. This not only defines who will get what, but avoids both probate and taxes on the estate entirely. The assistance of a good trust and estate lawyer are critical in setting up this document, but it can be well worth the cost. Mine cost just a tad over $2,000; but, to avoid probate and taxes and to clearly define who get what from the estate, it's well worth the money. The cost will vary from state to state, but should be in this ballpark. And the trusts are portable. That is, a trust written in one state will be recognized in any other.
I recently had occasion to go through this process, first when my father died which simply entailed a change from joint trustees to the surviving trustee (my mother in this instance), and shortly thereafter when my mother died and I became the sole trustee and executor of the estate. Simply followed the instructions if the Trust and her Will and everything was done. No probate. No state or federal taxes. Clean, simple and one less headache at a time when we didn't need any more problems than we already were facing. I can't recommend strongly enough the need to get one of these as soon as possible.
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To be honest, if my husband, daughter, and I all died together I couldn't care less what happens to my portfolio, or anything else for that matter.
You can always leave everything to charity...
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In the U.S., the key to avoiding all this hassle is to have a Revocable Living Trust. In this document you set up a trust where all your assets are recorded in the name of the trust and the trustees assigned (usually yourself and spouse). You can then assign heirs to the trust and someone to act as executor. This not only defines who will get what, but avoids both probate and taxes on the estate entirely. The assistance of a good trust and estate lawyer are critical in setting up this document, but it can be well worth the cost. Mine cost just a tad over $2,000; but, to avoid probate and taxes and to clearly define who get what from the estate, it's well worth the money. The cost will vary from state to state, but should be in this ballpark. And the trusts are portable. That is, a trust written in one state will be recognized in any other.
I recently had occasion to go through this process, first when my father died which simply entailed a change from joint trustees to the surviving trustee (my mother in this instance), and shortly thereafter when my mother died and I became the sole trustee and executor of the estate. Simply followed the instructions if the Trust and her Will and everything was done. No probate. No state or federal taxes. Clean, simple and one less headache at a time when we didn't need any more problems than we already were facing. I can't recommend strongly enough the need to get one of these as soon as possible.
You also have to remember to keep it updated. I even forgot we had one untill you mentioned it. It's over 10 yrs old and my children were still minors. They are both grown now with children of their own. Anyway your accounts...including checking, deed records and all that stuff would be recorded under the living trust
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Maybe this will be interesting for you.
Information on IS what shall be done if you are the inheritor, but no account of dead person exist and you wish to create it and start selling images.
"We will need a copy of the will stating that he willed copyright of his images to a specific person. If this is not mentioned in the legal will, then the executor of the estate can write a letter stating who will inherit copyright of the images.
iStockphoto will need a copy of the will stating who inherits the images (or stating who the executor is, and then a letter form the executor) and a copy of a death certificate.
These documents are kept on file, and you will be able to upload his images for sale at iStockphoto"
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Maybe this will be interesting for you.
Information on IS what shall be done if you are the inheritor, but no account of dead person exist and you wish to create it and start selling images.
"We will need a copy of the will stating that he willed copyright of his images to a specific person. If this is not mentioned in the legal will, then the executor of the estate can write a letter stating who will inherit copyright of the images.
iStockphoto will need a copy of the will stating who inherits the images (or stating who the executor is, and then a letter form the executor) and a copy of a death certificate.
These documents are kept on file, and you will be able to upload his images for sale at iStockphoto"
That is interesting information. I figured once the person died you could still collect his/her royalties, but am surprised you'd still be able to upload his remaining images.
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Years ago I informed my beneficiaries as to the agencies selling my images and the methods of payout and the $$ amount necessary for payout and any other pertinent info. Let's remember this is a business and we would not want to die and leave an ongoing business to lose income that may be created for decades. Likewise the agencies are legit businesses and must abide by the laws of their states or countries which protect the rights of the rightful heirs to a business which our portfolios are. If I were to die with my beneficiaries I would certainly want my earnings to go to an entity other than the agencies and, perhaps, most likely by US law, to my state's unclaimed funds account.
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I have watched this thread with interest as a former (traditional) agency owner/executive in the U.S. Since we had written contracts, rather than user agreements, and at the most less than 1,000 photographers (at all but the giant agencies), we were much more informed about our contributor/photographers. We also used to only issue checks that had to be counter-signed by the recipient before deposit and it is generally considered fraud to sign another's name for the purpose of cashing their checks. Thus when there was a death, we were contacted by someone for the money.
We then required (in California) a form issued by probate that indicated to whom the funds were to be transferred. In the case we heard from no one or if checks or other mail was returned, we held the money for three years and then, as required by the state, turned it over to the state's unclaimed property fund.
That brings us to today....there is little direct contact between the microstock company and the thousands and thousands of contributors. In many cases, a death will surely go unnoticed even if the funds aren't claimed. If the funds are being deposited to a debit card, anyone with access to the deceased's password, can request and load the funds. This could go on for years without heirs finding out.
I have no information at all nor do I think the following would happen with any large microstock companies that I am familiar with but I did work for a traditional company in the past that simply, quietly kept all the unclaimed funds with only a desultory effort at finding those whose checks were returned. When I asked about it, I was told, "Oh they are all dead anyway." (I left the company within a few weeks).
All our stories end one day. Do the correct thing: at the very least make a simple will with instructions and make it known to those that matter.
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I would think that the deceased's will plus the instructions of the executor of the will will direct whatever micro site to transfer all rights to the proper heir(s). I can't see how the assets of the deceased would be treated any differently with micro stock sites than with book publishers or any other company handling copyrighted material. The response from IS makes the most sense in this regard.
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I would think that the deceased's will plus the instructions of the executor of the will will direct whatever micro site to transfer all rights to the proper heir(s). I can't see how the assets of the deceased would be treated any differently with micro stock sites than with book publishers or any other company handling copyrighted material. The response from IS makes the most sense in this regard.
The microstock sites should not treat heirs in any way differently from book publishers etc but the same issues exist. These are: copyright ownership AND royality payments. They aren't exactly and permanently tied together.
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Very good information here thanks
what was Fotolias responce "Sorry we dont understand your question, and as your just a contributor we dont care that much if you do die !"
sorry couldnt resist !!
Warren
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Very good information here thanks
what was Fotolias responce "Sorry we dont understand your question, and as your just a contributor we dont care that much if you do die !"
sorry couldnt resist !!
Warren
Don't know that is what they'd say but I'm sure that is what they think... >:(
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"finally, agencies that prove immortality as seen in movies" (through some of their answers)... :D
For a common person as me, a testament don't seem a way, so either transfering everything to wife
either transfering all rights to a child just at the age that it will have a registered VAT number to rerpesent itself.
Thinking of it, prefer the child: it is a nice long living gift, not only in means of (possible) profit
but as a legacy. From father to son (or daughter). Who don't want his work to be shown or sold in 50yrs from now?
Who knows? It might ignite some creative spark in kids, if not already there :)
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Good topic.