Author Topic: Is IRS really taking our money with no law in background? (Read 1378 times)

Dr Bouz · « **on:** May 01, 2012, 05:36 »

Hi people.
Few weeks ago, i watched this movie> (it's documentary, and is free online):

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/america-freedom-to-fascism/

main idea about this, is that IRS from USA, is actually illegal organization, but, even such, - they are taking 30 percent of my income on getty images for example (and did for american sales for other sites, while i was not exclusive on is.).

Someone from USA? Is it really possible that these people are saying that, and saying this, and bla bla bla, but can not answer on a simple question - can you show me THE LAW that authorize you to rob people's money? and how is it possible that people are not making any questions about this?

Microbius · « **Reply #1 on:** May 01, 2012, 06:26 »

No, no it isn't

csproductions · « **Reply #2 on:** May 01, 2012, 06:37 »

It is true. The reason no one dares ask questions is because the IRS doesn't respond with answers - they respond with sanctions, fines, and jail time. And with all of the bravado among politicians about replacing the internal revenue code with a flat tax or fair tax or whatever they want to call it, it's never gonna happen because it is the single greatest source of power that our government has. They give billions to countries that don't even like us, they give billions more to their buddies (calling it "bailouts"), and they spend money like drunken sailors - witness the recent Government Service Agency (GSA) wild spending spree, which is nothing new. It's not about taxing us for essential government services. Rather, it's about socialism and wealth redistribution on a global scale. Ultimately, it's about power and enslavement.

The way it works is that an "employer" (which has been redefined in the internal revenue code to mean something other than the generally understood definition) submits sworn testimony via IRS forms that the company is involved in a federally taxable activity and that the company paid you as an "employee" (also redefined) a "wage or salary" (redefined), which means that you were also involved in a federally taxable activity. It is generally understood that every economic activity in America is federally taxable, but you won't find that anywhere in the actual law, which is what prompted the production of the film you referred to. It's very complicated, but the bottom line is this... Just like only a few hundred years ago, everyone knew for certain that the sun and planets revolved around the earth, everyone knows that all economic activity in America as federally taxable. The definition of an astronomer was "One who studies the way the sun and planets revolve around the earth." By its very definition, you could never arrive at the truth. That's why common words have been redefined in the internal revenue code. Our totally corrupt federal government is fleecing and enslaving its citizens, and we're just grateful that we get to keep some of what we earn. They accomplished it over a period of years using a process referred to as "sedition by syntax."

If you protest to your employer, you are branded a troublemaker, and you will eventually lose your job. If you protest with the stock site owners, you'll be targeted as well, and you run the risk of having your account terminated. As Morpheus said to Neo in "The Matrix," "Welcome to the real world."

heywoody · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2012, 06:40 »

Quote from: csproductions on May 01, 2012, 06:37

Rather, it's about socialism and wealth redistribution on a global scale

The US? Socialism? Seriously???

Microbius · « **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2012, 06:57 »

Here's a repost from the thread under the video in the link:
"26 U.S.C. § 1 There is hereby imposed on the taxable income of every individual . . . who is not a married individual a tax determined in accordance with the following table: (the table shows all of the tax brackets) It goes on to define taxable income:

26 U.S.C. § 61 [G]ross income means all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the following items: (1) Compensation for services, including fees, commissions, fringe benefits, and similar items; (2) Gross income derived from business; (3) Gains derived from dealings in property; (4) Interest; (5) Rents; (6) Royalties; (7) Dividends; . . . And also states that everyone has to file a return (unless yearly income is below $2000 as with many students):

26 U.S.C. § 6151 [W]hen a return of tax is required under this title or regulations, the person required to make such return shall, without assessment or notice and demand from the Secretary, pay such tax to the internal revenue officer with whom the return is filed, and shall pay such tax at the time and place fixed for filing the return (determined without regard to any extension of time for filing the return).

The United States Code (U.S.C.) is LAW!!! If it weren't then it would be illegal to commission U.S. Military officers (10 U.S.C.) or own property (15 U.S.C) among many, many other things. Wether or not the 16th amendment was "officially" ratified is a useless argument for several reasons:

The amendment was ratified by the appropriate number of states regardless of any typo's or errors in the copies of the amendment distributed to the states ( i.e. Oklahoma's copy said "income" rather than "incomes"). None of the ratifying states petitioned congress to change the amendment meaning that it was their intention, in good faith, to ratify the amendment, NOT to block it.

The constitution (not the amendment) clearly states that congress can levy taxes on income in an apportioned manner based on a census. This means that the framers of the constitution allowed for income taxes and collected them based on the citizens state of residency's population. Until the 16th amendment, only direct, un-apportioned income taxes were unconstitutional and therefore illegal.

The 16th amendment did not give congress new taxing powers, only lifted the restriction on direct taxes.

There is a substantial body of cases holding up the 16th amendment (US V. Benson, US V. Shawlick Glass Co. and too many others to list here) all the way to the supreme court. This means that even if the amendment was not ratified due to technical errors in the state ratification copies, it is still law due to the courts upholding it (unfortunately this is how the US legal system works)."

Problem is that citing law is actually pretty boring, much better to whittle off conspiracy theory dribble.

"As far as giving billions to countries that don't even like us" You need to realize that aid budgets also go to fund black ops and the like, that's why even at the height of financial troubles in the UK the aid budget was preserved. MPs have been pretty open about this after their time on office, like when money was siphoned off to buy arms for those fighting Idi Amin. I imagine a lot of that money is now going on the dirtier parts of the war on terror. A different issue to the one being discussed here.

Dr Bouz · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2012, 07:01 »

but money collected by irs is going nowhere - it is covering usa public debt if i understood this correctly.
b.t.w. i would love to see country in the world that usa goverment actually gave them anything for free (of charge, of interest, of political influence, ....)

Microbius · « **Reply #6 on:** May 01, 2012, 07:43 »

What was the question again? Is this just another one of threads where everyone bashes America in general or was it specifically about whether income taxation was grounded in law?

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2012, 07:58 »

Quote from: Dr Bouz on May 01, 2012, 07:01

but money collected by irs is going nowhere - it is covering usa public debt if i understood this correctly.
b.t.w. i would love to see country in the world that usa goverment actually gave them anything for free (of charge, of interest, of political influence, ....)

Try looking at Israel, which receives the lion's share of US "aid", anyway.

Dr Bouz · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2012, 08:19 »

my question would be somewhat - is it really possible, that u.s. government has no power, or will, or both to protect it's own people? -if someone is forcing you to do something, and there is no law that covers his/it's activities, this is act against the law - and if irs are really criminals, or state in state or power beyond everyone and everything there, how is it possible that people do not rise their votes against it?
** maybe it is not good moment us to discuss where us aid is going anyway, because discussion can go in unwanted direction

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2012, 08:51 »

Quote from: Dr Bouz on May 01, 2012, 08:19

** maybe it is not good moment us to discuss where us aid is going anyway, because discussion can go in unwanted direction

Who decides what is unwanted?

Gregor909 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2012, 10:12 »

Quote from: heywoody on May 01, 2012, 06:40

Quote from: csproductions on May 01, 2012, 06:37
Rather, it's about socialism and wealth redistribution on a global scale

The US? Socialism? Seriously???

Absolutely! What do you think Obamacare is? Government can force you to buy a service, and then insurance companies decide what kind of treatment you get, what brand of meds you get. And government gives waivers to their multinational corporations buddies/lobbyists. That's not free market...that's socialism.
And what do you think banker bail-outs are? Letting them fail is free market...capitalism. But taxpayer money bail-outs are pure socialism.

America is going to hell in a handbasket, and only the ones paying attention see it happening.

Btw, if you don't live in the US you don't have to pay taxes if you get a employer identification number and fill out the proper forms.
Or did something change and I missed something?

Colette · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2012, 10:54 »

This is an answer to this statement:

Quote

main idea about this, is that IRS from USA, is actually illegal organization, but, even such, - they are taking 30 percent of my income on getty images for example (and did for american sales for other sites, while i was not exclusive on is.).

The way IRS is taxing income from stockagencies seems to be internationally discussed, but other wise than you propably should expect.
Following the rules of the European Union agencies based in EU have to withhold a certain percentage from ALL sales, no matter from what country the buyer is.
IRS only withhold a percentage from sales made by US buyers, not from ALL sales. This is favourable when the law in your country doesn’t ask from you to give up ‘world income’. So income from stock seem to be not taxable in such countries (when I am well informed). People living there are losing a percentage from US sales from their income when the agency is US based, but a percentage from ALL sales when the agency is EU based.
When you are paying taxes in your own country, it will not make a big difference in most cases for already paid taxes can be settled (or is it cleared?) with the taxes you still have to pay. This is likewise discussed in the topic ‘Taxes at Panthermedia’.

I am not discussing if it is illegal or not that governments oblige their citizens to pay taxes.
Such a discussion will endure until the end of time.

RacePhoto · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2012, 11:36 »

Quote from: heywoody on May 01, 2012, 06:40

Quote from: csproductions on May 01, 2012, 06:37
Rather, it's about socialism and wealth redistribution on a global scale

The US? Socialism? Seriously???

Only for four more years of Liberals and Socialist leanings with Obama, then the usual swing of dissatisfaction and the Conservatives get in power for a couple of terms. It's nothing but a rocking chair, same thing, different names, all about politics and power. Yes, the current leanings are "tax the rich". Where's Russia? How's in England and their high taxes? It's burying France, Greece is just about bankrupt and Spain is next. So much for socialism, overly powerful unions and tax the rich. LOL

These people who claim the IRS is illegal and con people into protesting are only working for their own gain and are big blowhards. If you want a cozy free room in a Federal prison, and a fashionable orange suit, three squares and a cot. Just stop paying taxes based upon some website that makes empty claims. Like the ones that say, Federal Reserve Notes aren't money and other off the wall fringe factions.

Further Reading: http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159853,00.html "The Truth About Frivolous Tax Arguments"

Very simple answer: The Law: The Sixteenth Amendment provides that Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on income, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration. The End.

louoates · « **Reply #13 on:** May 02, 2012, 19:18 »

Right on Race! Most of the folks who made money promoting non-payment of taxes to the slow-witted are in jail. Good for them.

cardmaverick · « **Reply #14 on:** May 02, 2012, 19:50 »

Read "Federal Mafia" if you want all the information on this - it is legit. Ron Paul has mentioned this a few times while talking to the news and several former IRS agents have researched it and come out against the IRS being illegal. This countries government is beyond corrupt.

cardmaverick · « **Reply #15 on:** May 02, 2012, 20:08 »

Quote from: RacePhoto on May 01, 2012, 11:36

Like the ones that say, Federal Reserve Notes aren't money and other off the wall fringe factions.

They aren't.... they are Federal Reserve Notes. Look back at what money had written on them prior to the unconstitutional switch to fiat Federal Reserve Notes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/SilverCertificate1Dollar.jpg

"Silver Certificate" - AKA warehouse receipt, redemption note, etc... You could exchange the paper for the *actual* money it represented. Our constitution has not changed with respect to what is and isn't money. Federal Reserve Notes are not money, and they never have been money. Like many other things - money is one of those areas where the government knowingly breaks the constitution instead of changing it because they know that the public will never go along with it. They just do it anyways and try to fool the public into thinking its fine, then they get the courts to go along with the BS.

stockastic · « **Reply #16 on:** May 02, 2012, 20:33 »

All governments had to, one way or another, sometime in the past, bootstrap themselves out of nothing. They're just social arrangements that we've come to accept. I think that what came before governments was, for the most part, even more stressful.

jbarber873 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 02, 2012, 20:57 »

the simple answer is, if you don't like the rules for selling your images in the US, then don't sell them in the US. But if you want access to the US market you have to play by the US rules. Nobody sold you a ticket- you asked to sell images on these sites, and they are obligated to follow the tax rules of the countries they operate in, even if that includes countries like the US that are clearly inferior in every way from your perfect little world.

Microbius · « **Reply #18 on:** May 03, 2012, 00:28 »

Quote from: cardmaverick on May 02, 2012, 20:08

Quote from: RacePhoto on May 01, 2012, 11:36
Like the ones that say, Federal Reserve Notes aren't money and other off the wall fringe factions.

They aren't.... they are Federal Reserve Notes. Look back at what money had written on them prior to the unconstitutional switch to fiat Federal Reserve Notes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/SilverCertificate1Dollar.jpg

"Silver Certificate" - AKA warehouse receipt, redemption note, etc... You could exchange the paper for the *actual* money it represented. Our constitution has not changed with respect to what is and isn't money. Federal Reserve Notes are not money, and they never have been money. Like many other things - money is one of those areas where the government knowingly breaks the constitution instead of changing it because they know that the public will never go along with it. They just do it anyways and try to fool the public into thinking its fine, then they get the courts to go along with the BS.

sigh
http://fauxcapitalist.com/2011/04/30/the-u-s-constitution-doesnt-say-money-should-be-gold-or-silver-coin/

I know that it blows some people's mind when they realize that money has no intrinsic value, but wait for it, gold also has no (well actually very little) intrinsic value too. Most of its worth is down to the fact that we have collectively agreed to use it as tender, so there is a very high demand for it (ignoring the few actual uses it has in electronics and so on, as these account for very little of its worth). There are many minerals as rare or rarer that command nothing like the value.

Of course FRNs work the same way, if everyone woke up and said "hey, we don't want these pieces of paper" well yeah they'd be worthless, same with gold ("what use is this gaudy metal stuff anyway?"). It's a lot to wrap your brain around I know, but fundamentally it is how legal concepts work, they for the most exist by a consensus of opinion. What is murder or theft for example? they don't have an objective definition, they are defined by the wording of the law and consensus of opinion. What is murder one day may be self defense the next (see stand your ground law), or justice when the state does it (death penalty)

If you want to devalue faith in the US currency, go for it, but I struggle to see why anyone in the US would want to do it. I can see why others would. If you want Russia's propagandized take on it just watch a bit of economic reporting on RT, Max Kaiser's got a real hard on for destroying the Dollar.

nicku · « **Reply #19 on:** May 03, 2012, 00:43 »

Regarding the US IRS..... I live in an EU member country; what i don't understand is why i must pay 10% (of my income) to the IRS for the earnings that came from US buyers???

in the world are around 200 countries and USA is the only one with this rule.... hmmmm

Dr Bouz · « **Reply #20 on:** May 03, 2012, 02:04 »

Quote from: jbarber873 on May 02, 2012, 20:57

the simple answer is, if you don't like the rules for selling your images in the US, then don't sell them in the US. But if you want access to the US market you have to play by the US rules. Nobody sold you a ticket- you asked to sell images on these sites, and they are obligated to follow the tax rules of the countries they operate in, even if that includes countries like the US that are clearly inferior in every way from your perfect little world.

o.k. maybe your rules, and it's o.k. but are these rules real? and i did not ask anyone for anything, when i started - ss asked me to sell my images

and my concern, or thinking (do not appropriate word, sorry) -are these rules (rule -something bellow the law) made by following law, or - by breaking the law?

*why do not they take money from sellers on e-bay, when buyers are from usa, and payment is made in $ via paypal or whatever?

microbius - nicely said.

cardmaverick · « **Reply #21 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:04 »

Quote from: Microbius on May 03, 2012, 00:28

Quote from: cardmaverick on May 02, 2012, 20:08
Quote from: RacePhoto on May 01, 2012, 11:36
Like the ones that say, Federal Reserve Notes aren't money and other off the wall fringe factions.

They aren't.... they are Federal Reserve Notes. Look back at what money had written on them prior to the unconstitutional switch to fiat Federal Reserve Notes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/SilverCertificate1Dollar.jpg

"Silver Certificate" - AKA warehouse receipt, redemption note, etc... You could exchange the paper for the *actual* money it represented. Our constitution has not changed with respect to what is and isn't money. Federal Reserve Notes are not money, and they never have been money. Like many other things - money is one of those areas where the government knowingly breaks the constitution instead of changing it because they know that the public will never go along with it. They just do it anyways and try to fool the public into thinking its fine, then they get the courts to go along with the BS.

sigh
http://fauxcapitalist.com/2011/04/30/the-u-s-constitution-doesnt-say-money-should-be-gold-or-silver-coin/

I know that it blows some people's mind when they realize that money has no intrinsic value, but wait for it, gold also has no (well actually very little) intrinsic value too. Most of its worth is down to the fact that we have collectively agreed to use it as tender, so there is a very high demand for it (ignoring the few actual uses it has in electronics and so on, as these account for very little of its worth). There are many minerals as rare or rarer that command nothing like the value.

Of course FRNs work the same way, if everyone woke up and said "hey, we don't want these pieces of paper" well yeah they'd be worthless, same with gold ("what use is this gaudy metal stuff anyway?"). It's a lot to wrap your brain around I know, but fundamentally it is how legal concepts work, they for the most exist by a consensus of opinion. What is murder or theft for example? they don't have an objective definition, they are defined by the wording of the law and consensus of opinion. What is murder one day may be self defense the next (see stand your ground law), or justice when the state does it (death penalty)

If you want to devalue faith in the US currency, go for it, but I struggle to see why anyone in the US would want to do it. I can see why others would. If you want Russia's propagandized take on it just watch a bit of economic reporting on RT, Max Kaiser's got a real hard on for destroying the Dollar.

The value in gold is that it is an actual commodity and there is a finite supply which creates a stable money supply. Stability is the most important factor, and the best way to get that stability is to use something that cannot be created or duplicated, but is still easily divisible. Another factor is that the market - not a gangster government - chose it to be the currency of the last 5,000 + years.

Regarding the legality, the linked article is interpreting the constitution incorrectly. First off, powers not delegated to the Federal Govt. and not prohibited to the states are expressly reserved for the States. Keep in mind that the US is a Union of independent sovereign states, AKA nations, countries, whatever you want to call them - the US is a Union of sovereign States, not a country... With that in mind, only gold and silver can be money in any state that has decided to be a part of the Union we call the United States.

Think about that for a bit, do FRN seem legit now? They aren't.