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Author Topic: Perfectly even lit white background?  (Read 26172 times)

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« on: March 13, 2009, 08:23 »
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Hi Guys,

Do you any of you guys have any links to video tutorials or websites that explain how to get a perfectly even lit white background, for a full body shoot?
I find that when I do 3/4 body shoot the background seems to be evenly lit and there are no inconsistencies in the white background, and this is due to the way the crop the shot during shooting. However when I do a full body shoot, I always have to spend ages in photoshop removing the background.

I normally use two elinchrom lights for the background, and 1 key light. Should I be using 4 background lights instead to cover the four corners of the background?

Thanks


« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2009, 08:47 »
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"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!" Just kidding. Here's a video tutorial on how one pro does it. Get out your credit card.

http://www.prophotolife.com/2008/06/26/quick-video-3-studio-setup-for-a-large-white-background/

lisafx

« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2009, 08:56 »
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I found these tutorials helpful:
http://www.zarias.com/?cat=13

WarrenPrice

« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2009, 12:18 »
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I found these tutorials helpful:
http://www.zarias.com/?cat=13


This is great stuff.  Do I have a dodge tool in PSE with the same capabilities he was demonstrating?


« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2009, 22:43 »
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snip
I normally use two elinchrom lights for the background, and 1 key light. Should I be using 4 background lights instead to cover the four corners of the background?

If I may ...  which Elinchrom lights are you using? - Im considering purchasing 2 D-Lights 400 for backgrounds - for now id be slaving them off the built in optical eye. Ive heard good things about them, and I think the 400 power will suit my small studio 15' x 20' with a 9 x 10 white paper background - Ive been told if you set one say - bottom left corner the other top right corner and make sure the exposure is 1 - 2 or so stops overexposed of the lights on the subject that you should get good white - ffffff, 255 255 255, 0000,

« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2009, 08:32 »
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I started using a cheap set of 4 lights from Ebay, with two flat kingsize white sheets from the supermarket, 2 lights on the background stopped brighter, this is one image, not the best as a couple of areas are blown out, but white over white.



I have some other images shot with this setup and a PhotoShop tutorial for stray areas on my website!  ;D
 
http://www.instancesintime.co.uk/Home/tabid/59/EntryID/5/Default.aspx

Or on youtube:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5FubCsniEQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5FubCsniEQ</a>


Now I am using the Lastolite Hilite background and train which is just under 300 but is great for stopping light spill in a confined space, just a nightmare to fold up :o


« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2009, 08:45 »
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This is great stuff.  Do I have a dodge tool in PSE with the same capabilities he was demonstrating?

I assume yes since dodging the highlights is a basic tool in any isolation. The right value is 10% with a very soft brush, as said in the tutorial. He used a rectangular marquee selection to do the fast cleaning to #FFFFFF but I use the polygonal lasso tool to draw a rough outline quickly around the subject, then edit > fill > white (or delete if it's a background layer). Doing so, you get rid fast of all speckles and darker corners you might miss by the dodge. The rectangular  marquee is just too simple if the subject sticks out an arm etc...

What I missed in the tutorial is the verification of the isolation. For his CD artwork it's not that important but for stock it is. I do this with the Magic Wand Tool, Tolerance 0, Not Antialiased, Not Contiguous. Just click somewhere in the white #FFFFFF and the selection should fit perfectly around the subject. If there are "islands" left somewhere (#FFFFFE is not visible to the eye), Select > Inverse, dodge those islands and recheck.

WarrenPrice

« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2009, 09:19 »
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thanks, I found the dodge tool.  Need to spend more time studying tutorials and less time in experimental mode.   

My problem ... especially evaluating Stock images at 100% ... is cleaning the edges.  All the techniques seem great until you get right down to cleaning the jagged edges around the primary subject.

Also, what are all the FFFFFF references?

 

« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2009, 09:58 »
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Also, what are all the FFFFFF references?

#FFFFFF = White (255,255,255) Red=255,Green=255,Blue=255
#000000 = Black (0,0,0) Red=0,Green=0,Blue=0

David  ;)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 10:06 by Adeptris »

« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2009, 10:30 »
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My problem ... especially evaluating Stock images at 100% ... is cleaning the edges.  All the techniques seem great until you get right down to cleaning the jagged edges around the primary subject.

You can quickly go around the edges with the dodge tool. The feathering obtained is perfect, no jaggies. Sometimes you'll have to isolate by hand when the background is not perfect #FFFFFF and the subject itself is near-white. In that case I use the polygonal tool at 3-400%. Just make sure you have a feathering of at least 0.6 px then (menu: Select > Feather).

Also, what are all the FFFFFF references?

The whitest possible in 8 bits (256 possible values). FF is the hexadecimal notation (0..FF). Decimal is 0..255. The deepest black possible is #000000, or decimal 0. In principle, you can isolate on any background color, but since dodging highlights and burning shadow end at 0 and 255, #FFFFFF and #000000 are the easiest backgrounds.

You can avoid all this postproduction work by having a white over-exposed (2-3 stops) background in studio and work on manual.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 10:35 by FlemishDreams »

« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2009, 13:35 »
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The whitest possible in 8 bits (256 possible values). FF is the hexadecimal notation (0..FF). Decimal is 0..255. The deepest black possible is #000000, or decimal 0. In principle, you can isolate on any background color, but since dodging highlights and burning shadow end at 0 and 255, #FFFFFF and #000000 are the easiest backgrounds.

You can avoid all this postproduction work by having a white over-exposed (2-3 stops) background in studio and work on manual.
[/quote]

I have to share my experience with a great product from Lastolite...  HI-LITE Backgrounds....

http://www.lastolite.com/hilite-backgrounds.php

It works exactly like flamish states... overexpose the background.  It's actually a giant softbox that can be folded and fittet into a nice carrying bag. It's great for home use as well..   It's really worth every dime...   ;D

/Flemming


WarrenPrice

« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2009, 13:47 »
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The whitest possible in 8 bits (256 possible values). FF is the hexadecimal notation (0..FF). Decimal is 0..255. The deepest black possible is #000000, or decimal 0. In principle, you can isolate on any background color, but since dodging highlights and burning shadow end at 0 and 255, #FFFFFF and #000000 are the easiest backgrounds.

You can avoid all this postproduction work by having a white over-exposed (2-3 stops) background in studio and work on manual.


I have to share my experience with a great product from Lastolite...  HI-LITE Backgrounds....

http://www.lastolite.com/hilite-backgrounds.php

It works exactly like flamish states... overexpose the background.  It's actually a giant softbox that can be folded and fittet into a nice carrying bag. It's great for home use as well..   It's really worth every dime...   ;D

/Flemming


[/quote]

A part of my problem is having NO studio or equipment.  My products are usually laying directly on the background.  Overexposure isn't really possible ... unless you have a few secrets to share?   ;)

« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2009, 14:11 »
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A part of my problem is having NO studio or equipment.  My products are usually laying directly on the background.  Overexposure isn't really possible ... unless you have a few secrets to share?   ;)

I started like you thinking a studio is required, my first people shoot cost me 300 for the space, that was half a day, then I rented space for a while, now I also use the Lastolite Hilite, but I also researched a lot for product shooting, there is so much out there but you have to look for it.

Have a search on strobist and youtube, you can setup cheap for table top look at this guy on youtube and the stick-in-a-can, clips and light modifier boards, are so cheap to make, you could even do some of this outside in the yard if you have one and just use evening day light, it does not require a Studio just a tabletop space and thinking outside the box for a while, this gives time to save for the better kit.

Equipment:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zARqGgHjNc&amp;feature=channel" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zARqGgHjNc&amp;feature=channel</a>


This tutorial uses 3 x 100 watt houshold light bulbs and pan light holders, and home made modifiers, so most could be sourced local and cheap!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUJKqzlRtYo" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUJKqzlRtYo</a>


Lighting Glass
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQBVSGBBiNk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQBVSGBBiNk</a>


If you have time this guy has 33 tutorials starting with the cheaper options
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=prophotolife&view=videos&start=20

Hope this helps

David
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 14:31 by Adeptris »

WarrenPrice

« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2009, 15:23 »
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David,
Thanks a bunch for the tips.  Matter of fact, thanks to all for sharing. 

The videos brought up another question from my past failures.  In the video of photographing the camera on plexiglass, I have tried that and can't get rid of that annoying reflection.  There was one image in that series in which he eliminated that reflection but no explanation.  Can someone help me with that?


RT


« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2009, 18:43 »
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  There was one image in that series in which he eliminated that reflection but no explanation.  Can someone help me with that?

Photoshop, and not that well either, if you watch the bit of video where he shows the camera with different coloured backgrounds watch the bottom part of the camera grip and you'll see where the outline is jagged.

« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2009, 20:54 »
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A part of my problem is having NO studio or equipment.  My products are usually laying directly on the background.  Overexposure isn't really possible ... unless you have a few secrets to share?   ;)

Since I move back and forth between Asia and Europe and luggage allowance is only 20kg and unsafe (all the time things get broken in checked luggage) I'm limited to carry-on for valuables like laptop, cam, usb disk, strobes. Some airports strictly enforce the 7kg limit on carry-on so extra strobe heads are out of the question.

You can isolate on non-overexposed backgrounds too as long as they are clean. It just takes much more work in the postproduction. I did some experiments outdoors with giant lightboxes (fabric is incredibly cheap in Asia) but the models can barely endure the tropical sun for more than 2 mins. Tricks I'm planning to use next April are from the strobist and putting the model in a tight plywood tunnel that is painted white all over so you get maximum reflection. Use a portable strobe with ceiling-bouncing of course. I did some experimenting last December in my shower/bathroom which is narrow, deep and totally white, and I could reach even F11.0.

If you can't solve it with brute force like softboxes, you can exploit the reflection and triple the light that reaches the subject by a tight enclosure of white walls. With softboxes in studio, only the light from the frontal surface reaches the subject and the rest gets lost in the studio.

You'll get a gradient this way on the background from pure white near the top to light gray near the hips, but the top is the most important for the hair and my subjects wear dark clothes like suits or jeans along the hips so that's very easy to dodge there.

« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2009, 21:01 »
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Photoshop, and not that well either, if you watch the bit of video where he shows the camera with different coloured backgrounds watch the bottom part of the camera grip and you'll see where the outline is jagged.

With only dodging (soft brush) I never get jaggies. I only get jaggies on selections when the feather is set at 0px. You can only put an integer value there, line 0,1,.. 1px is often too soft but you can lose the jaggies easily by selecting feather 0px, then go to the menu Select > Feather and there you can fill in a fraction, like 0.6px. That loses the jaggies and the selection looks very sharp.


« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2009, 21:09 »
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I have to share my experience with a great product from Lastolite...  HI-LITE Backgrounds....

http://www.lastolite.com/hilite-backgrounds.php


This is on fact the ideal solution. Thanks for the link.
Available here, around 500$.

Do you actually use it and are you speaking from experience?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 21:25 by FlemishDreams »

« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2009, 06:13 »
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I have to share my experience with a great product from Lastolite...  HI-LITE Backgrounds....

http://www.lastolite.com/hilite-backgrounds.php


This is on fact the ideal solution. Thanks for the link.
Available here, around 500$.

Do you actually use it and are you speaking from experience?


Yes I'm actually using it. I have bought the 180 by 215 cm. version. I'm using one Lastolite Lumen 8 F400 flash head for lightning it, and the I have two more of the same flashheads for the rest of the lightning from the front.

It takes about 5 minutes to unpack and prepare the hi lite background, and maybe 5-10 minutes to fold it and fit it into the carrying back.

This is an example of an image where this background were used..  http://fljac.dk/gallery/index.php?id=40 and another one...  http://fljac.dk/gallery/index.php?id=35

And the price seems about right.. I have payed about USD 500,- for mine in december.

/Flemming

« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2009, 10:20 »
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Zack's tutorials are awesome. All my isolated shots are based on this technique and I setup a little studio that way in my basement. For product shots, I setup a mini-studio on a desk using the same technique. Here is my setup if you want to take a look and it's really cheap.

Hope it helps!

WarrenPrice

« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2009, 11:17 »
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Zack's tutorials are awesome. All my isolated shots are based on this technique and I setup a little studio that way in my basement. For product shots, I setup a mini-studio on a desk using the same technique. Here is my setup if you want to take a look and it's really cheap.

Hope it helps!


Thanks Talanis.  That is a very well done tutorial.  My question is about the reflective material you use ... the clear acetate.  Why do y'all use that?  Does the reflective material work better for eliminating background?  I tried glass and didn't like the resulting reflections.  There is a reflection in the foreground of the final result of your tutorial.  Do you leave that or remove it with Photoshop? 

PS:  I would like to thank the originator of this thread.  It is filled with some great information.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 11:18 by WarrenPrice »

« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2009, 11:54 »
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That's a reflective plastic sheet that you can find in the bathroom department of your Home Depot or other store. It isn't a clear material, it's an opaque reflective white sheet of plastic.

Two reasons why I use reflective mats:

1- it reflect the light more so the "floor" is white and not just the background. So to answer your question: yes, it helps to remove the background. glass isn't the best thing to chose though, you have to be able to bend the material so your background is seamless and don't see a line where the wall interect the floor.

2- to get reflection under the objects that looks more appealing (to me) than standard isolation. I'm sure someone will say the complete opposite. I like my pictures to have a gradiant reflection on the floor because it looks like they are more alive. Besides, if the buyer don't want that reflection, it's really easy to remove with the Dodge tool but it is far harder job to start with an isolated object and make a good reflection that doesn't seem fake (for complex objects). On the example in my post, I would remove the reflection because I would also remove the metal bar and the stand holding the figurine. That's my personal preference and I know many people have opposite view on that topic.


« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2009, 02:46 »
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Hi Guys,

Thanks for the response, all the info you have given has been really helpful. I especially benefited from the link Adeptris posted
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5FubCsniEQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5FubCsniEQ</a>
, it is really good it has cut my photo retouching time by 65%, thanks  ;).



 

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