Author Topic: Photo being sold on canvas in shop (Read 7306 times)

John W. · « **on:** November 09, 2015, 07:13 »

Hi all,

I just found out a photo of mine is sold on large canvas at a shop for EUR 100, they have a whole bunch of copies of it in stock. There is no EL sale recorded for this image. Can someone confirm an EL is required for this kind of use at all the agency's?

Because for example Shutterstock license says that physical reproductions are allowed under the standard license. Or is canvas considered merchandise?

http://www.shutterstock.com/license-comparison

Also apparently the customer can buy an EL till one year after using it (http://www.shutterstock.com/subscribe?clicksrc=full_thumb). Which would mean I can't do a thing and have to wait at least a year to take action?

Any help is appreciated as I am not sure how to take the right steps in this matter.

Frans

Addition to be clear: It's a phyiscal shop in my city and when I was there I saw about 15 copies.

ShadySue · « **Reply #1 on:** November 09, 2015, 07:22 »

Usually, this use would need an EL of some sort.
However, I've read that some agencies have a sort of honour system whereby the buyer doesn't have to pay for an EL unless they actually sell the goods with our image on it. Ludicrous at micro prices, and almost impossible to police unless like you, we happen to find the goods being sold.

You'd have to check the t&c at all the agencies you sell at, and also their subsites or distributors, as sometimes their T&C may be different.

Also, you might not be able to discover the honour system deal in the T&C. That might be some 'deal' the buyer has negotiated with your agency/distributor.

John W. · « **Reply #2 on:** November 09, 2015, 07:35 »

Thanks for your reply Sue. So it seems impossible to find out what kind of deal they had and even if an EL was needed. I'm tempted to contact the shop and ask them where they got it from,

ShadySue · « **Reply #3 on:** November 09, 2015, 07:39 »

Quote from: j-flown on November 09, 2015, 07:35

Thanks for your reply Sue. So it seems impossible to find out what kind of deal they had and even if an EL was needed. I'm tempted to contact the shop and ask them where they got it from,

I think that's your only way forward. Can I suggest you take some sneaky phone pics of the canvasses before approaching the shop, so that you have the evidence. You may be able to find the source on a label on the back of the canvas or nearby, but you probably tried that already.

John W. · « **Reply #4 on:** November 09, 2015, 08:14 »

Yes I was planning on making some pictures first. Unfortunately there is no label on it. If anything surprising comes out of contacting them I'll post it here. Thanks again

etudiante_rapide · « **Reply #5 on:** November 09, 2015, 11:12 »

Quote from: ShadySue on November 09, 2015, 07:22

Usually, this use would need an EL of some sort.
However, I've read that some agencies have a sort of honour system whereby the buyer doesn't have to pay for an EL unless they actually sell the goods with our image on it. Ludicrous at micro prices, and almost impossible to police unless like you, we happen to find the goods being sold.

interesting (red)
.. i see your point too. the shop have spent money transforming it into canvas,
but have not sold anything . so really, they paid out of their own pocket to make those
inventory and after selling it, apply for EL.
much like we do for consignment goods.

i suppose you can say that's fair, in good faith. and we have nothing to lose ..
i rather have it this way.

or the shop can now go to ss amazing new to serve customers better
and just download the large previews and get everything for free

Shelma1 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 09, 2015, 11:47 »

They paid out of their own pockets for printing of the canvas, and frames, and possibly placement in the shop. The only thing they didn't pay for was the art itself. Why is the art free until they sell something?

And btw, how will anyone ever know if the art sells? They're trusting someone who didn't pay upfront to come back and pay after the fact. I'm sure the printer didn't allow that.

I'm just amazed at how our work is ok to use for free, but not everyone else's. I don't agree with those terms and conditions, honestly. If they have the money to pay for printing up front, they have the money to pay a lot less for licensing the image.

ShadySue · « **Reply #7 on:** November 09, 2015, 11:57 »

I think they pay for an original ordinary licence, it's the EL that's taken 'on trust'.
NB, for avoidance of doubt: I didn't say I liked it, I only said I've read that it happens.

Coincidentally, I've just found an example of one of my iS files being used as a free e-greetings card by two different companies (different card designs). I've googled and can't find any connection between the two companies. I have one EL for 'electronic sales, unlimited', which maybe, or maybe not, covers 'sales for free'; but it probably wasn't the same buyer/designer who used it for both companies, one in the US and one in France, so I've taken out tickets at iStock to query the uses.

Hongover · « **Reply #8 on:** November 09, 2015, 12:41 »

Contact them. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

stockastic · « **Reply #9 on:** November 09, 2015, 13:08 »

This sort of craziness is why I'm right on the edge of shutting down my remaining microstock accounts. I'm now making more money on print sales, and it looks like the microstocks are basically competing with me, with my own work.

We're drifting into a tacit agreement that someone with your image has the right to do anything with it that you, the creator, don't explicitly act to to prevent. There are now companies in the business of searching for usages of your work, allegedly to spot violations - for a fee of course. The next step for the micros will be to simply tell us to start using those companies if we want protection.

I'd call this 'rights creep' an it's only going to get worse.

We also need to stop calling microstock companies "agencies".

etudiante_rapide · « **Reply #10 on:** November 09, 2015, 13:57 »

Quote from: Shelma1 on November 09, 2015, 11:47

They paid out of their own pockets for printing of the canvas, and frames, and possibly placement in the shop. The only thing they didn't pay for was the art itself. Why is the art free until they sell something?

And btw, how will anyone ever know if the art sells? They're trusting someone who didn't pay upfront to come back and pay after the fact. I'm sure the printer didn't allow that.

I'm just amazed at how our work is ok to use for free, but not everyone else's. I don't agree with those terms and conditions, honestly. If they have the money to pay for printing up front, they have the money to pay a lot less for licensing the image.

i am on your side on that freebie statement too. but let's say it's either that or be clueless that
some franchise of canva is selling our stuff on the other side of the world, or even in the next state without our knowing, and when they do, we get a few pennies to 102 bucks from ss

or we could go indie as stockastic mentioned, locally. i say locally because this is the only way
i can have control. even then, i don't even know how i have control even locally as the city is large.

but yes, as stockastic go, perharps with what is happening here with ss .. large preview easy to steal.. and canva shops using our work not paying until it sells,
maybe just maybe, we go find a canva shop in our city and even in our state,
and make this same deal with them. ie. they make the canvas with our work,
and sign an agreement like using my work on consignment.

i get paid IN FULL when they sell. this way, i don't get pennies to 102 from ss,
i get paid IN FULL.

and how do you control it not being stolen with the large preview on ss?
you don't give those images to ss.

wordplanet · « **Reply #11 on:** November 09, 2015, 18:00 »

Is it one of the bricks and mortar shops that Fine Art America has partnered with? Are you on FAA?
I've found my work featured on some of their sites. Hoping they report sales properly but have to assume the business is run properly. My feeling is if my work is featured as part of their program, chances of a sale are better. I think those places are free to set their own prices.

YadaYadaYada · « **Reply #12 on:** November 09, 2015, 18:11 »

Quote from: j-flown on November 09, 2015, 07:35

Thanks for your reply Sue. So it seems impossible to find out what kind of deal they had and even if an EL was needed. I'm tempted to contact the shop and ask them where they got it from,

How many places do you have it up for license? Why did you point to Shutterstock?

correction, FT allows resale printing like this with a ~~basic~~ EL download. Standard allows, Printed material: magazine articles, books, advertising, brochures, documents illustrations, booklets, billboards, business cards, packaging...

ShadySue · « **Reply #13 on:** November 09, 2015, 18:34 »

Quote from: YadaYadaYada on November 09, 2015, 18:11

Quote from: j-flown on November 09, 2015, 07:35
Thanks for your reply Sue. So it seems impossible to find out what kind of deal they had and even if an EL was needed. I'm tempted to contact the shop and ask them where they got it from,

How many places do you have it up for license? FT allows printing like this with a basic download. Why did you point to Shutterstock?

My goodness, I nearly started an abusive rant against FT, but luckily I decided to check.
I don't see how they could offer prints for sale with a standard licence:
https://en.fotolia.com/Info/HowToBuy/SizeAndLicenses
Specifically:

	Standard Licence	Extended Licence
Derivative Products Intended for Resale	Not allowed	Unlimited

from:
https://en.fotolia.com/Info/SizesAndUses/Images

ShadySue · « **Reply #14 on:** November 09, 2015, 19:11 »

Quote from: j-flown on November 09, 2015, 07:13

Also apparently the customer can buy an EL till one year after using it (http://www.shutterstock.com/subscribe?clicksrc=full_thumb). Which would mean I can't do a thing and have to wait at least a year to take action?

I clicked on your link and don't see how the customer can buy an EL up to a year after using it.
The very opposite, they have to download any image bought with a enhanced licence within a year of buying the EL.
I had to think about this, and can only imagine it's because (bizarrely, IMO) there seems to be no way you can buy an EL for just one image, so you buy the EL for two, use the one you need, then you have a year to choose another file which needs an EL.

John W. · « **Reply #15 on:** November 10, 2015, 03:48 »

You're right Sue, I missread that line on SS.

@wordplanet
The image is not on FAA. The shop where the canvases are sold is an 'outlet store'.

skyfish · « **Reply #16 on:** November 10, 2015, 03:48 »

Quote from: stockastic on November 09, 2015, 13:08

This sort of craziness is why I'm right on the edge of shutting down my remaining microstock accounts. I'm now making more money on print sales, and it looks like the microstocks are basically competing with me, with my own work.

We're drifting into a tacit agreement that someone with your image has the right to do anything with it that you, the creator, don't explicitly act to to prevent. There are now companies in the business of searching for usages of your work, allegedly to spot violations - for a fee of course. The next step for the micros will be to simply tell us to start using those companies if we want protection.

I'd call this 'rights creep' an it's only going to get worse.

We also need to stop calling microstock companies "agencies".

Something like this already happened with hostings. When hosting company had a disaster on their side, they proposed "help" and clients should pay to third party company with which they did an agreement. I insisted that they have to restore accounts for free. This time ok. Anyway they wanted clients to pay for their low qualification.

60D · « **Reply #17 on:** November 10, 2015, 08:33 »

Quote from: stockastic on November 09, 2015, 13:08

This sort of craziness is why I'm right on the edge of shutting down my remaining microstock accounts. I'm now making more money on print sales, and it looks like the microstocks are basically competing with me, with my own work.

How do you sell your prints?

stockastic · « **Reply #18 on:** November 10, 2015, 09:31 »

Quote from: 60D on November 10, 2015, 08:33

Quote from: stockastic on November 09, 2015, 13:08
This sort of craziness is why I'm right on the edge of shutting down my remaining microstock accounts. I'm now making more money on print sales, and it looks like the microstocks are basically competing with me, with my own work.

How do you sell your prints?

Mostly FAA.

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Author Topic: Photo being sold on canvas in shop (Read 7306 times)

John W.

ShadySue

John W.

ShadySue

John W.

etudiante_rapide

Shelma1

ShadySue

Hongover

stockastic

etudiante_rapide

wordplanet

YadaYadaYada

ShadySue

ShadySue

John W.

skyfish

60D

stockastic

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