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Author Topic: PAL/NTSC/FPS Which one is the most international?  (Read 21852 times)

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« on: May 02, 2016, 18:26 »
0
Hi all,
I am a newbie as a videographer and about to freak out. My main question is which one is the most international one? ntsc or pal? 24 or 30 fps? In my point of view as a photographer, 30 fps should be the most international, if editor needs 24 fps they might just drop 6 frames, thats all. However after researching for hours I found out thats not that simple. I have sony rx10 mark 2 and canon 5D mark 3. I use sony for video shots. So which one should I chose from camera menu, ntsc or pal? I know I dont have to worry about aspect ratio since both are same in HD world. However I cant decide to fps. My other question is whats the difference between 23.97, 24 and 25 fps? and whats the difference between 29.97 and 30?

Other quesiton is I prefer to shot 100/120 fps in case of I need slow motion. Things are more complicated here. Lets say 24 fps is the most common which is PAL fps. In PAL mode I can shot with 24,50 and 100 fps and in NTSC mode I can shot with 30, 60, 120 fps. So lets say I want to slow it down 3.5x. What I think is I should be able to slow it down 5x and render at 24 fps. Then open a new 24 fps project, import footage and make it faster 2x (or whatever), edit and render at 24 fps and everything should be fine. Am I right? Confusing part is I shoot in PAL but outcome footage becomes NTSC. Doesn't it?

SHORTLY WHICH MODE (PAL OR NTSC) AND WHICH FPS IS THE MOST INTERNATIONAL OR CONVERTABLE ONE?

As additional info I live in Turkey (PAL) but I'm moving to Canada ((NTSC) in September. I found out people usually use same system with their region and dont care much about other things. Actually I'm moving to Canada to start a digital video school and I'm pretty sure about I will find my answers there but I'm just trying to learn basics and create few footages this summer.


« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2016, 04:24 »
0
I'm no expert but If you are moving to Canada, sticking with NTSC seems sensible.  30fps must be fairly easily convertible to PAL 25fps or we wouldn't have so much bad US tv in the UK :)
Use higher frame rates if you want slow mo but I think the bitrate is lower, so use 30fps for standard footage.  I use 25fps for anything from the UK but switch to 30fps if it has nothing to do with a PAL region.

24fps give a more cinematic look but maybe not as good for stock?

« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2016, 06:43 »
0
I'm no expert but If you are moving to Canada, sticking with NTSC seems sensible.  30fps must be fairly easily convertible to PAL 25fps or we wouldn't have so much bad US tv in the UK :)
Use higher frame rates if you want slow mo but I think the bitrate is lower, so use 30fps for standard footage.  I use 25fps for anything from the UK but switch to 30fps if it has nothing to do with a PAL region.

24fps give a more cinematic look but maybe not as good for stock?

Thank you for your answer. I don't think I will be able to make professional works as a freelancer for a while so my main concern is stock footage. Thanks to sony, it doesnt drop bitrate in higher frame rates. Honestly I was thinking just like you but found out dropping frames makes the footage worse but adding frames is not a big deal since software will add duplicated frames. Most people say that however most of people say same things as you. I also saw 29.97 is very common however 30 fps isn't. I'm still confused about 23.97, 24 and 25 or 29.97 and 30.

« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2016, 11:16 »
0
It used to be that when someone said 30 frames per second, they meant 29.97. The fractional frame has to do with limitations on bandwidth and the speed of light in analog broadcast television.

« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2016, 12:43 »
+2
It used to be that when someone said 30 frames per second, they meant 29.97. The fractional frame has to do with limitations on bandwidth and the speed of light in analog broadcast television.

I took this from The Automatic Filmaker as he explains this oddball frame rate very well. It's a phasing issue not speed issue.

"The main thing I would like to point out, which some of the geekier of you might already know, is that 30fps is just an approximation of the actual frame rate of video in the US. The real framerate is 29.97fps. Why this incredibly strange number you say? Well, ill tell you.

In order to make video play back at a fixed rate there needs to be some kind of timing circuit. When television was first beginning, there werent any of the high tech silcon-based chips that we used for this task today. So the brilliant engineers back then used the oscillation of AC electricty as the basis for their timing circuit. In the US, electricity cycles at 60 times per second (60hz.) So using half of that gives us the frame rate of 30fps. (In Europe, electricity flows at 50hz. 50/2 = 25fps)

So the frame rate of television was actually exactly 30 frames per second at one point in time. However that all changed when color television was introduced. When a signal for color information was added to the television transmission there was a big problem. The color carrier signal was phasing with with the sound carrier signal because they were very close in the spectrum. This made the picture look un-watchable. The quick fix they came up with was to reduce the framerate by .03fps which moved the two signals out of phase.

We have been stuck with this frame rate ever since.

« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2016, 10:01 »
0
Thank you all for your answers. After reading answers and talking to few friends who buys and sells stock footages, I guess 24p (23,976) looks like the best choice.

« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2016, 15:56 »
0
24 fps

« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2016, 16:13 »
0
That's strange because I have seen a lot of people say 24p isn't a good choice for stock.  How many stock clips get used in films?  Isn't 30p more useful for the web and TV in NTSC regions?

« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2016, 16:19 »
0
I've shot my entire portfolio at 24fps. It's easier to convert into both pal and NTSC.

I do believe that if the clip is the right one for the buyer then they probably wouldn't care less what fps it's in. Today's software makes it easy to convert instead of saving as an image sequence and re-processing it to a preferred fps as in the past.

I wouldn't worry about fps to much, just focus on concept / lighting / camera settings and content.

Benozaur

« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2016, 17:31 »
+2
Hello kaanates,

I wouldn't worry too much about your original question: "Which one is the most international?".
Generally USA, Canada and Japan broadcast at 30fps NTSC (technically 29.97 but lets keep this simple) and most of the the rest of the world at 25fps PAL.
This is because the electricity in these zones is output at different frequencies. NTSC countries operate at 60 Hz and PAL countries operate at 50 Hz.
So for example in Canada the electrical supply is 110 Volts and 60 Hertz (cycles per second). In Turkey the electrical supply is 220 Volts and 50 Hz.

Notice that one half of 60 = 30 (60 Hz and 30 fps) one half of 50 = 25 (50 Hz and 25fps). This is no coincidence and is a "relic" of the old broadcast days having to broadcast 30 or 25 alternating lines in order for standard definition TV sets to receive and subsequently display. I wouldn't worry too much about this as modern technology from filming, to editing, to post production to broadcast is way more flexible and forgiving today than it was even ten years ago.

So here is the question you should be asking yourself: At what shutter speed should I be filming at?

I apologize if this seems confusing - if so - then just read the next bit...

If you are in Turkey I would advise you to stick to 25fps (or multiples of 25 i.e. 50fps or 100fps) and set your shutter speed to twice the speed of your fps.
This reduces flicker and creates a more natural motion blur.
Meaning if you film at 25fps your shutter speed should be set at 50 (one 50th of a second).
50fps at 100 shutter speed and 100fps at 200 shutter speed.

If you are in Canada I would advise you to stick to 30fps (or multiples of 30 i.e. 60fps or 120fps) and set your shutter speed to twice the speed of your fps.
Meaning if you film at 30fps your shutter speed should be set at 60 (one 60th of a second).
60fps at 120 shutter speed and 120fps at 240 shutter speed.

Confused? Sorry.

We do this in order to eliminate flicker. So we come full circle here. Remember that Turkey has 50hz so you will want to film at a number neatly divisible by 50 (25, 50 or 100). This is mostly to do with tungsten lights, fluorescent lights and LED lights (dimmed) flickering out of sync with your shutter speed.
So if you film at 30fps at 60 shutter speed (meaning that your shutter will be open 60 times per second) in a 50 Hz zone (where your tungsten light will be flickering 50 times a second) you will experience flicker in your shot. if you do this - your stock footage is likely to be rejected. Reply with a smiley face if that last sentence made you read that section again  ;D

Honestly - just stick to what will be best for the shot and don't worry too much about whether buyers prefer 24, 25, of 30fps. In my experience it doesn't really matter.
I have 24, 25 and 30fps footage and they all sell equally well.

Benozaur

« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2016, 17:32 »
0
I've shot my entire portfolio at 24fps. It's easier to convert into both pal and NTSC.

I do believe that if the clip is the right one for the buyer then they probably wouldn't care less what fps it's in. Today's software makes it easy to convert instead of saving as an image sequence and re-processing it to a preferred fps as in the past.

I wouldn't worry about fps to much, just focus on concept / lighting / camera settings and content.

I totally agree...

« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2016, 17:46 »
0
I've shot my entire portfolio at 24fps. It's easier to convert into both pal and NTSC.

I do believe that if the clip is the right one for the buyer then they probably wouldn't care less what fps it's in. Today's software makes it easy to convert instead of saving as an image sequence and re-processing it to a preferred fps as in the past.

I wouldn't worry about fps to much, just focus on concept / lighting / camera settings and content.

I totally agree...
When I went through this a few years ago, I saw several experienced stock contributors saying that it wasn't that easy to convert 24 to 30 and that buyers usually would prefer 30.  What's the benefit of using 24 when most buyers will be working with 30 or 25?

Benozaur

« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2016, 18:27 »
0
I've shot my entire portfolio at 24fps. It's easier to convert into both pal and NTSC.

I do believe that if the clip is the right one for the buyer then they probably wouldn't care less what fps it's in. Today's software makes it easy to convert instead of saving as an image sequence and re-processing it to a preferred fps as in the past.

I wouldn't worry about fps to much, just focus on concept / lighting / camera settings and content.

I totally agree...
When I went through this a few years ago, I saw several experienced stock contributors saying that it wasn't that easy to convert 24 to 30 and that buyers usually would prefer 30.  What's the benefit of using 24 when most buyers will be working with 30 or 25?

It is generally easier to put a 24fps clip onto a 25fps or 30fps timeline than the other way round. This doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be done, its not that much of a big deal. Content should be king when delving into stock footage (well that's my point of view anyway), unless all you have are beaches and sunsets then I guess 24, 25, 30fps may be a factor for a few fussy buyers.

In my experience in post production and broadcast, its the producers who hold the purse strings to productions requiring large amounts of stock footage, not the editors, compositors, online specialists, etc.
If a client likes your clip, they will buy it. If your clip has a high production value, it will sell.
Trust me when I tell you that most producers don't care about one particular clip's fps especially when all you have to do on the offline stage is to conform all your clips to whatever timeline you are working on.

What do you think happens when you are working on an international ad campaign that needs to be broadcast in PAL, NTSC and SECAM?
You just conform your timeline - easy...

Again - I wouldn't worry too much about fps.

ProTip: If you are in a PAL country - shoot 25fps (or multiples) if you are in an NTSC country - shoot 30fps (or multiples). Keep an eye on your shutter speed, expose correctly and have fun...

« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2016, 14:27 »
0
Hello kaanates,

I wouldn't worry too much about your original question: "Which one is the most international?".
Generally USA, Canada and Japan broadcast at 30fps NTSC (technically 29.97 but lets keep this simple) and most of the the rest of the world at 25fps PAL.
This is because the electricity in these zones is output at different frequencies. NTSC countries operate at 60 Hz and PAL countries operate at 50 Hz.
So for example in Canada the electrical supply is 110 Volts and 60 Hertz (cycles per second). In Turkey the electrical supply is 220 Volts and 50 Hz.

Notice that one half of 60 = 30 (60 Hz and 30 fps) one half of 50 = 25 (50 Hz and 25fps). This is no coincidence and is a "relic" of the old broadcast days having to broadcast 30 or 25 alternating lines in order for standard definition TV sets to receive and subsequently display. I wouldn't worry too much about this as modern technology from filming, to editing, to post production to broadcast is way more flexible and forgiving today than it was even ten years ago.

So here is the question you should be asking yourself: At what shutter speed should I be filming at?

I apologize if this seems confusing - if so - then just read the next bit...

If you are in Turkey I would advise you to stick to 25fps (or multiples of 25 i.e. 50fps or 100fps) and set your shutter speed to twice the speed of your fps.
This reduces flicker and creates a more natural motion blur.
Meaning if you film at 25fps your shutter speed should be set at 50 (one 50th of a second).
50fps at 100 shutter speed and 100fps at 200 shutter speed.

If you are in Canada I would advise you to stick to 30fps (or multiples of 30 i.e. 60fps or 120fps) and set your shutter speed to twice the speed of your fps.
Meaning if you film at 30fps your shutter speed should be set at 60 (one 60th of a second).
60fps at 120 shutter speed and 120fps at 240 shutter speed.

Confused? Sorry.

We do this in order to eliminate flicker. So we come full circle here. Remember that Turkey has 50hz so you will want to film at a number neatly divisible by 50 (25, 50 or 100). This is mostly to do with tungsten lights, fluorescent lights and LED lights (dimmed) flickering out of sync with your shutter speed.
So if you film at 30fps at 60 shutter speed (meaning that your shutter will be open 60 times per second) in a 50 Hz zone (where your tungsten light will be flickering 50 times a second) you will experience flicker in your shot. if you do this - your stock footage is likely to be rejected. Reply with a smiley face if that last sentence made you read that section again  ;D

Honestly - just stick to what will be best for the shot and don't worry too much about whether buyers prefer 24, 25, of 30fps. In my experience it doesn't really matter.
I have 24, 25 and 30fps footage and they all sell equally well.

Thank you for detailed information. At the begining of your post I was confused but after finished reading, all things became really clear for me. I guess I'm gonna print your post and keep it in my camera bag  ;D I guess I totally got the NTSC/PAL and electricity things but now I have an other question. So how is that possible to shoot at 24(23.97) in studio without getting a flickered footage? And if I decide to stick 24(23.97) from now would that be rational? In other words, my camera (Sony RX 10 II ) can shoot at 120 fps in NTSC mode and 100 fps in PAL mode. What I'm trying to do is to shoot at 120 fps and slow my footage down to 5x instead of 4x(100 to 25) at 24 fps. (I know that doesnt fit your 50hz, 60hz tip but keep reading please) When I shoot 4K, my lovely Sony can only shoot at 30 or 24 fps in NTSC mode. So if I don't plan to make slow motion I just switch to 4K in 24 fps without changing camera mode. Because I have to restart my camera (which takes a few seconds) and format my memory card (which is a problem in the middle of shooting)

« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2016, 15:09 »
0
Many professional stock shooters always use 23.976. For slow motion and timelapse it doesn't really matter since it's not important that it's real time anyway. The buyer can always just speed up or slow down a little bit without changing the intended effect of the clip, keeping all the frames intact.

When you shoot 23.976 in a studio you use flicker free studio lights.

« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2016, 16:47 »
0
I had a look at time lapse clips priced $200 or more on Pond5. There's 2,144 at 30fps, 767 at 29.97.  There's 427 at 24 and 502 at 23.98.  So it looks like the professionals prefer 30 or 29.97.  That's what I thought when I read through various forums a few years ago.  I don't know where people are getting the information that 24fps is generally considered to be the best for stock?

« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2016, 17:03 »
0
For filming anything in slow motion you must use powerful continuous LED lights. They won't flicker at all. Turn off all other lights. The best light is the Sun of course:)

Professionals do tend to use 23.976 (24) Sharpshot. If you record at 25 but edit at 30 you're going from odd frames to even where as 24 to 30 is even to even - less of a kick.

The top videographers tend to film in the 23.976fps, the likes of SimonKR and viafilms. Granted not all the time but more than any other fps.

But like I said in the above post. Editors are looking for the right clip, not scrutinizing what fps it was filmed in. I consistently sell my clips at 23.976 to every corner of the globe. Not for the frame rate but because of what I filmed.

Timelapses tend to be filmed more by photographers and not the seasoned videographer so I wouldn't really go by those stats.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 17:07 by Cider Apple »

« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2016, 17:53 »
0
I did a few other subject searches for clips priced over $200 and there are still more clips at the higher frame rate.  I've no doubt 24fps sells and is ideal for cinema, I just never thought it was the most popular for stock and the evidence I can see supports that.

« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2016, 17:58 »
0
I never said it's the most popular. The logical thing is to film in your native region. Especially for those starting out. It's a bit of a one sided coin though as the most important thing is what were filming.

« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2016, 18:37 »
0
I have checked a lot of clips and all frame rates sell. There is no clear pattern. The reason there are more clips with 29.97 is that all cameras sold in the NTSC world are set to that by default.

axiomimages is the top seller (or top 3) pretty much all the time at Pond5 with $499 clips and they are all 23.98. But like others have pointed out, it's the content, not the frame rate that sells. But high budget stuff is always 23.98.

« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2016, 02:02 »
0
I don't believe some of the most experienced people on Pond5 selling for the highest prices would leave their camera on 29.97 because that's the default.  They would probably go through the same process most of us do, trying to find out what's most suitable for stock.  I can see that it doesn't really matter though.

Benozaur

« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2016, 14:19 »
0
I never said it's the most popular. The logical thing is to film in your native region. Especially for those starting out. It's a bit of a one sided coin though as the most important thing is what were filming.

I agree with this. Stick to what your region defaults to in order to minimize potential issues with out of sync shutter speeds and electrical signal outputs.
Its just a rule of thumb - one to which I generally stick to. Probably 80% of my stock portfolio is 25fps because I happen to live in Europe.
But sharpshot if you are convinced that 30fps is the way to go - and it works for you - then great, carry on...

Benozaur

« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2016, 14:26 »
0

Thank you for detailed information. At the begining of your post I was confused but after finished reading, all things became really clear for me. I guess I'm gonna print your post and keep it in my camera bag  ;D I guess I totally got the NTSC/PAL and electricity things but now I have an other question. So how is that possible to shoot at 24(23.97) in studio without getting a flickered footage? And if I decide to stick 24(23.97) from now would that be rational? In other words, my camera (Sony RX 10 II ) can shoot at 120 fps in NTSC mode and 100 fps in PAL mode. What I'm trying to do is to shoot at 120 fps and slow my footage down to 5x instead of 4x(100 to 25) at 24 fps. (I know that doesnt fit your 50hz, 60hz tip but keep reading please) When I shoot 4K, my lovely Sony can only shoot at 30 or 24 fps in NTSC mode. So if I don't plan to make slow motion I just switch to 4K in 24 fps without changing camera mode. Because I have to restart my camera (which takes a few seconds) and format my memory card (which is a problem in the middle of shooting)

I'm glad to have helped put a little perspective on your original question  :)
As to shooting in a studio at 24fps  - it shouldn't be a problem. Shooting at 240fps and you should start to see flicker issues. Undimmed LED lights do not flicker, high frequency fluorescent lights (e.g. Kinoflo's) don't flicker, 5K, 10K tungstens burn so hot that they don't have time to cool down between cycles therefore don't flicker. These are rather expensive lighting setups and generally found in commercial studios rather than in in Uncle Joe's garage...

« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2016, 14:44 »
0
I never said it's the most popular. The logical thing is to film in your native region. Especially for those starting out. It's a bit of a one sided coin though as the most important thing is what were filming.

I agree with this. Stick to what your region defaults to in order to minimize potential issues with out of sync shutter speeds and electrical signal outputs.
Its just a rule of thumb - one to which I generally stick to. Probably 80% of my stock portfolio is 25fps because I happen to live in Europe.
But sharpshot if you are convinced that 30fps is the way to go - and it works for you - then great, carry on...
Like I said in my first post in this thread, I am from the UK and use 25fps for anything for the PAL market.  If I lived in an NTSC area, I would use 30fps.

Benozaur

« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2016, 16:38 »
0
I never said it's the most popular. The logical thing is to film in your native region. Especially for those starting out. It's a bit of a one sided coin though as the most important thing is what were filming.

I agree with this. Stick to what your region defaults to in order to minimize potential issues with out of sync shutter speeds and electrical signal outputs.
Its just a rule of thumb - one to which I generally stick to. Probably 80% of my stock portfolio is 25fps because I happen to live in Europe.
But sharpshot if you are convinced that 30fps is the way to go - and it works for you - then great, carry on...
Like I said in my first post in this thread, I am from the UK and use 25fps for anything for the PAL market.  If I lived in an NTSC area, I would use 30fps.

Yes, you did. I stand corrected.  :)


 

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