MicrostockGroup
Agency Based Discussion => 123RF => Topic started by: Microbius on December 06, 2011, 04:38
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Sorry if this has been posted already. Here's the email:
"Change in Commission Structure for 123RF.com Contributors
We will be changing our Contributors’ commission structure effective January 1, 2012.
Here’s what you need to know:
All existing contributors shall continue to enjoy the current 50% nett commission share ONLY IF they fulfill ALL of the following criteria.:
Have registered with 123RF.com before January 1, 2012.
Have at least 150 accepted images in their respective portfolios by January 1, 2012.
Have had a minimum of 10 paid downloads by January 1, 2012.
All new contributors who start submitting images to 123RF.com AFTER January 1, 2012 OR do not meet all the criteria above shall be enrolled under the new commission structure.
More details on the new commission structure shall be announced closer to the implementation date.
In the light of the criteria above:
We urge you to continue uploading your images to 123RF.com if you haven’t already met all of the criteria above.
We believe it is more expedient to upload your images now rather than later if you haven’t met the sales quota criteria.
Thank you very much for your attention,
Best Regards,
123RF.com Submission Team"
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This is at least the second case - following Crestock - of different (lower) commissions for newbies.
As an "old" contributor, I guess I should be happy. But...
Surely, they are trying to avoid bad comments from us.
And a side effect, are they trying to divide us? Old vs new contributors?
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What seems a little strange is that it says there will be more details closer to the time of the change, but we are already within a month of it!
How close do we have to get!
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Squeezing contributors can't be good news, even if it doesn't affect us. Presumably, the details to come will deal with the terms and conditions for newbies.
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And since it takes longer than 15 days to review new images it's very late now to hear this news.
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Well at least for once I'm among the privileged. The first time ever and I missed all the promotions too (like 10c for every accepted file at DP etc)
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Well, considering they reject something like 60% of what I have sent them (and these are all images that were previously accepted at iStock and sold well there), I can't see me making the grade either. The point about two week wait times for inspections is well-made.
What is the lower pay level going to be? Does anyone know? I haven't received that email from them. I think I might just drop them in this case.
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Well, considering they reject something like 60% of what I have sent them (and these are all images that were previously accepted at iStock and sold well there), I can't see me making the grade either. The point about two week wait times for inspections is well-made.
What is the lower pay level going to be? Does anyone know? I haven't received that email from them. I think I might just drop them in this case.
Haven't you even got 10 downloads there? If you have, you will stay on 50% commission regardless of the new rate (which is bound to be significantly less than half, I'd guess 30% and that they launch a campaign to say it is still among the highest in the industry).
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I have had 11 sales there, but it says in the email above that I must fulfil all of the criteria to get the higher rate. I am nowhere near the 150 accepted mark and at a 60% attrition rate it would need me to upload more than a hundred images in the next week to get in. Which just isn't going to happen.
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I have had 11 sales there, but it says in the email above that I must fulfil all of the criteria to get the higher rate. I am nowhere near the 150 accepted mark and at a 60% attrition rate it would need me to upload more than a hundred images in the next week to get in. Which just isn't going to happen.
For me the same problem, 11 sales, 75 images online, 26 waiting for approval. Didn't receive an email neither and on their blog I see nothing concerning this.
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I have had 11 sales there, but it says in the email above that I must fulfil all of the criteria to get the higher rate. I am nowhere near the 150 accepted mark and at a 60% attrition rate it would need me to upload more than a hundred images in the next week to get in. Which just isn't going to happen.
you have over 650 at IS, why not uploading them?
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you have over 650 at IS, why not uploading them?
http://stockcube-stockcube.blogspot.com/2011/11/my-apologies.html (http://stockcube-stockcube.blogspot.com/2011/11/my-apologies.html)
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This is at least the second case - following Crestock - of different (lower) commissions for newbies.
As an "old" contributor, I guess I should be happy. But...
Surely, they are trying to avoid bad comments from us.
And a side effect, are they trying to divide us? Old vs new contributors?
I doubt the need for any sinister motives. Probably just trying to stay in business!
lff
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With the new announcement I tried to check the website just to verify my numbers and I can't even log in. Anyone else having this issue? It says I'm not authorized to see the earnings page.
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I've been with them since 2008, have had much more than 10 sales but only have 114 vector images there.
I could upload more to get my portfolio count over 150, but I would have to go through my old stuff to find images that I didn't want included in the first place. It's ridiculous to have portfolio count as one of the criterias as it doesn't say anything about quality. I may have to consider closing my account.. :-\
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Well, that's a bummer....after a rash of nonsensical bulk rejections from 123RF and from Shutterstock earlier this year, I decided to work on my RM portfolio. I've added about 1,100 images to my RM agencies and was going to concentrate on the micros the first half of 2012.
Seeing as I'm a contributor that didn't get the message (i.e. I was tossed aside)...I guess I'll have to re-think my agency priorities when I work on my micro portfolio early next year.
I certainly hope they implement a tiered structure - I'd be OK if they gave a reduced commission UNTIL a contributor reaches the outlined criteria but if they decide everyone gets a scant 20%, then I can't see prioritizing them.
This business is getting to the point that it's becoming more profitable to compete with the agencies that represent our work and to submit it to magazines and customers directly.
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that explains waiting over 2 weeks for review...
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With the new announcement I tried to check the website just to verify my numbers and I can't even log in. Anyone else having this issue? It says I'm not authorized to see the earnings page.
I've had that - try control+F5 to force a refresh and it should prompt you for a captcha annoying thing to get in.
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With the new announcement I tried to check the website just to verify my numbers and I can't even log in. Anyone else having this issue? It says I'm not authorized to see the earnings page.
I've had that - try control+F5 to force a refresh and it should prompt you for a captcha annoying thing to get in.
Thanks for the tip but it was a dud. I still can't get past it. I'm going to email my "account manager" and see if she can fix it.
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With the new announcement I tried to check the website just to verify my numbers and I can't even log in. Anyone else having this issue? It says I'm not authorized to see the earnings page.
I've had that - try control+F5 to force a refresh and it should prompt you for a captcha annoying thing to get in.
Thanks for the tip but it was a dud. I still can't get past it. I'm going to email my "account manager" and see if she can fix it.
I have the same problem - I have to Empty Cache every time I try to go to the earnings page. I sent a messages over a week ago and still no reply.
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I checked my spam folders but don't see any e-mail from 123rf - did they only e-mail contributors who don't meet the criteria? It would seem to me that all contributors should know what's going on, not just those who are directly affected.
This is like those deals airlines did a while back where the pilots at the regional carriers got less than those at the main airline. Then they based the lower pay on which jets you flew and tried to move some of the "cheap pilot" jets into the main airline fleet. In other words I don't see this as good news even for old contributors like me who have large portfolios and enough sales.
Cutting royalties is not a good sign - and it's a shame as 123rf had been doing reasonably well.
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I'm no longer a photo contributor on 123RF, but I applaud them for doing it this way. Considering what has happened at some of the other agencies, this seems to me to be a fair way of doing it. (Though I think the criteria for qualifying for the grandfathering rates could've been more lenient.) If iStock had done it this way, there would have been far fewer defections from exclusives, and less hatred towards them from all.
Now ... I wonder if this applies to the new footage contributors as well? I assume not, as they're just getting started on those.
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Great!
142 in portfolio and far too little notice to get the extra 8 approved !
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I don't know what I did but now I can't find any of my images on the website. I'm completely confused.
Edit: The site works on my phone but it gives me a "Certificate not from a trusted source" warning. My desktop is running FinJinn security so it may be auto blocking based on the certificate warning.
Looks like I'll be staying at the 50%.
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I don't meet the criteria and I definately didn't get the email. There is nothing in my spam filter or bin. The last email I got from them was introducing my 'personal team' on the 21st of October.
This is not an early April Fool or something from the OP is it?
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I don't meet the criteria and I definately didn't get the email. There is nothing in my spam filter or bin. The last email I got from them was introducing my 'personal team' on the 21st of October.
This is not an early April Fool or something from the OP is it?
No I received the email as well. I was going to post about it and found this thread.
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I didn't get the e-mail either.
I'm just shy of 100 images in my portfolio. It will be a major push to try and get another 50 uploaded in time. It would be nice to know how big of an advantage the "old" commission structure is.
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I made it, but haven't received the email either. Thanks for posting.
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Nice that they are keeping the 50% commission for us old timers but they can change that whenever they want. Not nice for anyone considering going non-exclusive with istock. I prefer the way SS do it, pay more to those that sell more, regardless of when they started. People that put in a lot of work should be rewarded. Those that don't make much effort can have a reduced commission. I don't see how putting off potentially great contributors by paying them a lower commission is a good idea.
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Nice that they are keeping the 50% commission for us old timers but they can change that whenever they want. Not nice for anyone considering going non-exclusive with istock. I prefer the way SS do it, pay more to those that sell more, regardless of when they started. People that put in a lot of work should be rewarded. Those that don't make much effort can have a reduced commission. I don't see how putting off potentially great contributors by paying them a lower commission is a good idea.
On the offchance that 123rf is listening to this discussion, I think your suggestion is a very good one. Instead of having all new contributors be at the lower scale, have a two- or three-tier system where earnings (portfolio size is irrelevant) in $$ determine your rate. Grandfathering existing contributors would be a nice touch.
I also think it'd be appropriate to hear something from 123rf as to why they feel the need to reduce commissions - are they investing in marketing or are they seeing reduced business and instead of trying to increase it they hope to keep their profit up by taking from contributors?
And why did only some of us get the e-mail?
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Yep, totally agree with the last two posts.
Also - it is the 6th of December. With inspections running at two weeks plus you will have to upload today to be in with any sort of chance of getting your images inspected and accepted before 1st Jan, given that the holiday period lies in between.
There should be a pop up when you log in to tell you this, as a lot of people who don't come in here will have no idea.
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I didn't get the e-mail. I am in the grandfathered group, but I still am sad to see them dropping commission %. Without seeing the books I am always skeptical of sites claims that they need to pay us less to stay competitive (or whatever language they use to justify it). Maybe the captcha I have to type in every time I go to the site is costing them too much.
I also agree that it isn't really enough notice for someone to boost their portfolio unless they are very close - 123rf has a history of occasional long waits for reviews (that they seem to be in now, I still have images from Nov pending) combined with the occasional 100% rejection all for the same reason that could make it rather difficult to get a whole lot of images accepted. Were I within shooting range of getting to 150 images accepted I think that I'd send in all my rejects today in the hope that some of them got accepted.
Sad to see another site go down this road. Maybe it really isn't sustainable.
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I'm sure they could carry on paying 50% to all of us but they have seen other sites getting away with paying less. They should be aware though that they aren't a big selling site and that potential new contributors that could make them lots of money might not bother with them now.
Cutting commissions looks like an easy way to make extra money but it might not be such a good idea. Has cutting commissions been a good move for istock and FT? They don't seem to be selling more.
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Bad news. any lowering of commissions is bad. And it seems unjustified. 123rf sales is increasing. Now 123rf wants to win more money with new contributors? bad news
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This can't be good news for anyone including 123rf, Grandfathered photogs and certainly not newbies or recent exclusive shooters.
Their biggest problem in my opinion is their price. I would rather see them double their prices and lower commissions 15 percent than go this route.
Mat
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Hi All,
Yes, we're always listening. Our strategy was meant to affect the new ones more than the 'experienced' ones. We are also trying to motivate the ones sitting on the fence to 'upload' sooner rather than later.
We do not see this as a cost cutting measure, as most of you made the cut. We believe that most of you who have extensive graphs and laser sharp analytical skills would come to the conclusion that the cost cutting effect is very minimal. And any 'cost savings' realized are very small and gradual especially in the beginning.
Have an open mind - Please view this as a necessary stepping stone towards bigger things.
As usual, we will be fair, and equitable - ESPECIALLY to contributors who have good sales, productive and a proven track record. *hint hint*.
Alex.
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As usual, we will be fair, and equitable - ESPECIALLY to contributors who have good sales, productive and a proven track record. *hint hint*.
Ah! The plot thickens. Is this an undercover announcement of a sort of level system? Like new contributors starting at 30% then climbing up the ranks when they produce good sales? Nothing is more rewarding than that. It makes good business sense for the company too since consistent long-term contributors are very low maintenance. I'm more than 6 years with 123RF and I never needed to send an email. Payout is automatic, unlike FT where you have to threaten them (Baldrickstrousers) to get your money. I'm curious what the hint-hint will be ...
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Hi All,
We are also trying to motivate the ones sitting on the fence to 'upload' sooner rather than later.
I'm motivated. I have had good sales at 123RF since joining this year with my small portfolio.
I'm sitting at around 100 images (mostly vectors) and have uploaded an additional 46 images today. I have several other files in the works that I will be uploading asap. My only concern is that with the flood of new images I won't get reviewed in time. It would have been nice to know this was coming with more notice. I'm positive I can deliver the images, just not sure that they'll get reviewed. Any chance you can provide a firm deadline? Maybe if images are uploaded by Dec. 23rd or ??, they will count toward the 150?
Can you tell us the new commission structure?
I'm a big 123RF fan, and I wish I discovered the site sooner. For me, 123RF has been outperforming 2 of the "top tier" sites, I'd hate to see that drop.
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Perhaps allowing the grandfathering if the images are submitted by the end of Dec rather than reviewed by then would make more sense as that is more under the control of the contributors...
In any case, I am glad my % isn't going down at this point. I also hope that there is some method for the people after this deadline to climb the ladder so to speak. One of the things I always dislike about the exclusive programs is the us vs. them mentality they foster - see IS for the worst of this.
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...We believe that most of you who have extensive graphs and laser sharp analytical skills would come to the conclusion that the cost cutting effect is very minimal. And any 'cost savings' realized are very small and gradual especially in the beginning.
There will very likely be new entrants into the microstock agencies over the next few years - perhaps some macro photographers who have decided this is where the future is (stranger things have happened). Are we to assume that even if they bring a portfolio of several thousand images, they can never earn the same royalty rate that others of us do? Just because we happened to be part of 123rf before some arbitrary date??
Or are we to assume that new big portfolio contributors will negotiate private deals to get the same rate we're getting?
And if the cost savings are gradual "especially in the beginning" - does that suggest they get larger over time (for those of the newbies who build a big and successful portfolio)? Why is that a good idea?
Suppose I had waited 6 more months before bailing on iStock exclusivity and found I had a reduced commission - that I could never improve upon no matter what I did - because I didn't have 150 images uploaded by January 2012?
If you want to encourage people to work hard and produce, give them a chance to earn the higher royalty rate by generating sales. Without that it just seems so arbitrary to have this two tier compensation scheme just depending on when someone signed up. And soothing words aside, I can't help but view it as the thin end of the wedge that will in the future see the old-timers royalties "aligned" with the new ones, perhaps ironically citing how unfair it is to have two different royalty structures.
Not sure what you mean about motivating "the ones sitting on the fence". If you're talking about iStock exclusives, they have to give 30 days notice, so if they haven't already done that, they're SOL with 123rf already. If not them, who? Who is "sitting on the fence" right now?
And could you elaborate on this "necessary stepping stone towards bigger things"?
I appreciate you joining the discussion Alex, but I just don't see how this scheme makes any sense for the contributor community.
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Hi All,
Thank you for the pressing questions, as yes, I do know that things are a bit vague at the moment. There's a reason for that, we're taking the latest statistical data, analyzing it and then making decisions on what are the criteria to be included in the classification of the commission payments.
We're only doing this for the new contributors, as it is, we believe that photographers with good portfolios will not be severely penalized as their level of sales should bring them up to where they fairly need to be relatively quickly.
There will be as usual - grace periods. However, we will not negotiate private backdoor entries, simply because if we did that everyone would want a back door entry and we'll be flooded with a lot of requests. I believe it also creates a lot of despotism etc.
Our only advice is upload with us, we'll help with bulk uploads and acceptance. But let your portfolio speak for itself - in terms of sales. If the quality and merchantability of the portfolio is good, they'll be right up there with the rest in a relatively short period of time.
Do be patient, we'll announce more when the time is right ;)
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Thanks for participating in the discussion Alex, good to see that your growing success isn't stopping you communicating with us!
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If only a few contributors have received an email from 123 it looks like they've leaked the topic to get some feedback from which to fine tune the up coming new contributor hazing features.
I've only been with them for a few months, got the sales, with a mix of vectors and photos, but not the 150 accepted images. Interesting to see what they come up with - 123rf seems like an OK site.
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Do be patient, we'll announce more when the time is right ;)
Like when it is too late? Can you explain why you haven't told all contributors about this? As mentioned previously in this thread inspections are running very slowly at the moment so realistically people would need to upload today to be in with any sort of chance of making the deadline. When are you planning on telling people that they have missed the boat?
I left iStock because they were shafting me. I take a dim view of it elsewhere. I am not alone in this, so I hope you have thought this through properly.
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Sorry if this has been posted already. Here's the email:
"Change in Commission Structure for 123RF.com Contributors
We will be changing our Contributors’ commission structure effective January 1, 2012.
Here’s what you need to know:
All existing contributors shall continue to enjoy the current 50% nett commission share ONLY IF they fulfill ALL of the following criteria.:
Have registered with 123RF.com before January 1, 2012.
Have at least 150 accepted images in their respective portfolios by January 1, 2012.
Have had a minimum of 10 paid downloads by January 1, 2012.
All new contributors who start submitting images to 123RF.com AFTER January 1, 2012 OR do not meet all the criteria above shall be enrolled under the new commission structure.
More details on the new commission structure shall be announced closer to the implementation date.
In the light of the criteria above:
We urge you to continue uploading your images to 123RF.com if you haven’t already met all of the criteria above.
We believe it is more expedient to upload your images now rather than later if you haven’t met the sales quota criteria.
Thank you very much for your attention,
Best Regards,
123RF.com Submission Team"
minimum 10 paid downloads means only credit sales or all sales (including subs)?
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I have 118 files at 123RF, so I won't be making it to 150. I think this is a lame move, because any commission cut is a 'punishment' for its contributors, no matter what excuse you might have.
And pushing us to upload more sounds more like a threat ("make it so 150 OR we will cut your commission") rather than an reward.
Too bad, 123RF, I was just starting to like you because of the sales. Also, why didn't I receive an e-mail? Why do I have to find out on this forum? At least you should communicate this to ALL your contributors, at least 3 months prior.
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minimum 10 paid downloads means only credit sales or all sales (including subs)?
I assume it means any type of sale, but not free downloads. I don't put in free images, but 123rf has a promotional program where you can contribute free images in small sizes.
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Squeezing contributors can't be good news, even if it doesn't affect us. Presumably, the details to come will deal with the terms and conditions for newbies.
Yes, exactly. Not to mention that we have seen a number of sites tweak their search engines to put images they get a higher percentage of in front of buyers. Hopefully 123RF will not use the tactic of putting their lowest commission stuff in the front of searches.
Alex, I appreciate your participation in the discussion. Hope that there are no nasty surprises in store for those of us who have been with you since the beginning. Please no scheme where we have to make a certain number of sales each year to keep our commissions. The loss of good will translates into a loss of custom, and that doesn't benefit anyone.
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Anyone getting this?
Earnings
You are not authorized to view this page
My pending files, portfolio, everything else is accessible.
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Anyone getting this?
Earnings
You are not authorized to view this page
My pending files, portfolio, everything else is accessible.
yep for a while now but if you check a few minutes later it will work :)
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Hi All,
1. Paid downloads = creds + subs
2. If you have a good portfolio and are having good downloads, you can appeal ...
3. As long as you make the cut, your commission share will still be 50%
Hope everyone is clearer with the explanation above.
Alex.
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Yep, totally agree with the last two posts.
Also - it is the 6th of December. With inspections running at two weeks plus you will have to upload today to be in with any sort of chance of getting your images inspected and accepted before 1st Jan, given that the holiday period lies in between.
There should be a pop up when you log in to tell you this, as a lot of people who don't come in here will have no idea.
My concern as well. I have just under 100 images up on 123RF and they've been selling well. But if I upload another 70 or so (gotta make allowances for rejections) what's the odds of them all being reviewed in the time left? Particularly given the holidays that will pretty well wipe out the end of the month.
And the only place I heard about this was on the MSG forum. No e-mail or pop-up on site. >:(
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Anyone getting this?
Earnings
You are not authorized to view this page
My pending files, portfolio, everything else is accessible.
yep for a while now but if you check a few minutes later it will work :)
Or logout and log back in - that normally works
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Hi All,
1. Paid downloads = creds + subs
2. If you have a good portfolio and are having good downloads, you can appeal ...
3. As long as you make the cut, your commission share will still be 50%
Hope everyone is clearer with the explanation above.
Alex.
Please answer the following questions:
1. Why didn't we get to hear this via a site e-mail or a frontpage announcement? Not every contributor reads the MSG forums.
2. Why didn't you announce it 3 months prior?
3. Why punish contributors with a commission cut anyway? Contributors should be rewarded for being at 123RF, not penalized.
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Please answer the following questions:
1. Why didn't we get to hear this via a site e-mail or a frontpage announcement? Not every contributor reads the MSG forums. +1
2. Why didn't you announce it 3 months prior?
3. Why punish contributors with a commission cut anyway? Contributors should be rewarded for being at 123RF, not penalized. +1
4. Why are files pending review for 2 weeks or more? it has something to do with new commission structure?
5. How can we know that this commission cut won't turn into another cut for ALL users in a few months?? ???
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Hmmmm... All the big 4, however badly folks believe they are treated, have level structures based on performance and / or exclusivity so new contributors can aspire to better things. This development is making "2nd class citizens" on something as arbitrary as a date and is fundamentally unfair.
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A little word of a newbie.
I have a fulltime job in IT but photography was a "serious" hobby the last year. After some messing around I discovered stock photography and decided to give it a try. I joined DT and FT and discovered this was quiet a serious business and I was forced to improve my photo's. So I forgot it for a while, learned a lot and invested in some new material. Then I was ready to give it a new shot.
I discovered this site that pointed me to some new agencies like 123rf and Canstockphoto. Around May I joined both sites and started to send in my modest work. I was very happy form the start, 123rf made me sales immediately and canstockphoto accepts nearly everything. . For me as hobbyist this was the ideal setup. I could earn some money from my "best" stockphoto's at 123rf and my other work could have some extra exposure through canstock and since they offered the one time download (no credit or subscription needed) maybe a "fan" could buy it .
Now I hope my new agency, 123rf, will not shoot me in the back. I really don't understand their motivation. A picture that sells...sells whatever the source is. For newbies like me who have 11 downloads it makes no big difference if they have to pay 5$ or4$. If they don't want startups like me, please tell it now.
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If they don't want startups like me, please tell it now.
It's probably not that they don't want newbies. They just want to pay them less while not angering good performing existing contributors.
Wow, so even the lower tier sites are starting the process of wringing contributors dry.
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It's not yet clear - given the absence of anything detailed about what exactly they are planning to implement - that it is a pure cash grab, although that's certainly what recent experience has led many of us to fear.
It would be good to have a date by which we'll see the details on this. Why drop bombshell and then go silent?
If this is just a tiered earnings system - similar to SS's - where the cash you've earned the agency gets you a higher rate over time, I don't think there'll be much fuss. If it's an arbitrary two-tier rate with no opportunity for newcomers to earn the 50% we're now getting, I think it won't be long before the rest of us see a rate cut. Growth in profits coming from squeezing contributors is not a long term strategy.
If we won't get any news until the new year, let us know now when the details will be forthcoming.
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I understand the annoyance for people who have not reached the levels, and it is never good to see rate cuts, but I am thankful to finally see an agency grandfather rates for the majority of people rather than slash for everyone.
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Now I hope my new agency, 123rf, will not shoot me in the back.
People longer active in microstock have their back full of shotgun scars. Would you like to be shot in the front instead?
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Woohoo, I made it.
When I first found out about the change in commissions, I had 92 files accepted at 123RF. I got to work and submitted several files that I hadn't already sent to 123 and created many many more new images/vectors.
As of earlier today I had 75 files pending review. I just logged in and found that 72 of those files were accepted.
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well I guess I will not be joining in the NEW Year. Another thing I don't have to do. I was thinking I should join as they seem to be getting better sales than a year or ago.
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*!
149 approved!
I have sent support an email about one rejected image but I am not hopeful, a shame as 123 is doing ok for me with my small port.
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149 approved!
I have sent support an email about one rejected image but I am not hopeful, a shame as 123 is doing ok for me with my small port.
Good thing you can appeal! :)
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Well I uploaded 108 images, all selling elsewhere. Only need 66. Let's see how long it takes to review. Don't hold out that much hope, but all I can do is try.
For some reason I have never received an e-mail from 123 letting me know the status of submitted images (accepted, rejected or whatever). Is there some setting I need to review in my profile or elsewhere to get this? Same problem with Veer ... no e-mail status updates. Suggestions?
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Well I uploaded 108 images, all selling elsewhere. Only need 66. Let's see how long it takes to review. Don't hold out that much hope, but all I can do is try.
For some reason I have never received an e-mail from 123 letting me know the status of submitted images (accepted, rejected or whatever). Is there some setting I need to review in my profile or elsewhere to get this? Same problem with Veer ... no e-mail status updates. Suggestions?
No, 123 do not send out status emails. You just need to check into your account (under "For Photographers " -History, on the bottom right of the home page) to check the status. Veer used to send status emails but mine stopped coming about a year ago so I guess they stopped as well. Again, just check into your account "Dashboard" and click on the Approved/Rejected tabs ( no need to be in a hurry to do this at Veer ;)). Good luck with your submissions. Regards, David.
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I uploaded a bunch and 1 was rejected because of a problem with the preview, so I now I've got 149 images. So close but now it's too late :-\
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Hey there,
For those of you who are still at the gates waiting to make the cut by about 50 images or so, we're creating a last minute VIP line only for MSGers.
PM me with your 123RF userID, I'll get people to review it for you quickly ;)
Happy New Year!
Alex.
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Hey there,
For those of you who are still at the gates waiting to make the cut by about 50 images or so, we're creating a last minute VIP line only for MSGers.
PM me with your 123RF userID, I'll get people to review it for you quickly ;)
Happy New Year!
Alex.
Wow! This is really thoughtful! I am already over the line, but this is a very nice perk for MSG. Thanks Alex, and Happy New Year to you and the gang at 123RF too :)
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Great. E-mail just sent.
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That is pretty cool! Nice job Alex.
Hey there,
For those of you who are still at the gates waiting to make the cut by about 50 images or so, we're creating a last minute VIP line only for MSGers.
PM me with your 123RF userID, I'll get people to review it for you quickly ;)
Happy New Year!
Alex.
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Images reviewed and made the grade. Many thanks to Alex and all the crew at 123.
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And my images are waiting since 13/12 for a review. ??? FY
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Just got a bunch of photos approved, so I'm at 155 now!
The only thing I worry about is that it takes them a couple of days until they appear in my portfolio. Do they have to appear in my port by January 1st or is it enough that I already got them accepted before that day?
Regards
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And my images are waiting since 13/12 for a review. ??? FY
same here....
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Hi All,
It's the last working day for many of us. So we're really prioritizing the one who will just make the cut. I hope the ones who have been with us and have already made the cut will be patient as we try our best to get more through the door.
Additionally, as long as your accepted count is more than 150, you're considered "IN".
Happy New Year, do enjoy but stay safe...!
Alex.
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Hi All,
It's the last working day for many of us. So we're really prioritizing the one who will just make the cut. I hope the ones who have been with us and have already made the cut will be patient as we try our best to get more through the door.
Additionally, as long as your accepted count is more than 150, you're considered "IN".
Happy New Year, do enjoy but stay safe...!
Alex.
We do appreciate the effort on behalf of your team to help us make the cut. I know that I went from 0 to a couple hundred in a few short days. Please send your reviewers our best regards and have a wonderful New Year.
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rats. look kike i missed out, still one short :(
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Sorry but I'm going to whine a little here ... despite my best efforts it looks like I've missed out by 3 images ... can't there be a tiny bit of leeway for people like myself and sponner above? I felt like I was doing OK at 123 but this will make me lose motivation to upload there for sure. It feels very unfair that there wasn't more warning about this change and the only place to find out about it was here :-(
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Me too -- just missed out by 4 images (I still have 27 pending). I didn't get a notice anywhere but here and I've been on vacation for the last couple of weeks so didn't see it here until yesterday :(
I've been with 123RF for over 2 years but just kept a small portfolio there because I didn't have time to devote to another site. In November I gradually started uploading my backlog (~2000 images -- including my top sellers) to bring my 123RF port into parity with my other sites. It'll be quite disappointing if I unknowingly miss out on keeping my current royalty by a day or two.
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Any news on the new commission structure? It was said to be valid from Jan 1, 2012 on... ???
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Looks like the select few were given this notice? Oh well... I'm not a super seller for 123rf but I have been loyal. Guess I did not make the cut. Not much incentive to add more photos now. How unfortunate because I've always liked them and I think there recent marketing efforts on facebook have been really good for business.
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I am happy that they have remained loyal to their contributor base. The change seems to be designed so that the maximum number of people don't end up having the rug pulled out from under them. I do feel bad for those on the margin, but I guess there will always be a few who fall through the gap.
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True microbius, and as a marginal I agree to a certain extent.
Having said that if there was a notice of this change and a reasonable amount of time to cross the threshold I would have no complaints.
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True microbius, and as a marginal I agree to a certain extent.
Having said that if there was a notice of this change and a reasonable amount of time to cross the threshold I would have no complaints.
I agree. I think it's the lack of notice that makes me unhappy. I guess this is a lesson to be learned tho for not submitting on a regular basis.
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Hi All,
All emails were sent out to all contributors, check your spam folders in your inbox.
I also did say PM me with your 123RF usernames and we'll try our best to get you in through the door several days back.
You may still do so, we're now really at the 11th hour.
Thank you,
Alex.
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Alex,
Thanks for the reply, I did send a couple of PM's before new year, I have sent you another.
Sponner
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Nop.., no mail received by me ( not even in spam). so where we can see the new commissions ?
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Alex,
I believe the thread starter is the only person in this whole thread that actually got this email...
I definately didn´t get it - and what worries me most, i didn´t even get as a site mail! Why is that?
(In fact the only (site) mail I ever got is from 01.08.2011 and reads "thank you for your continued support".)
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Me neither, no mail received
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Same here, I didn't get the mail either.
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I didn't get the mail either - I think 123rf might have had a problem with how this mail was sent. And as pointed out, why no site mail on this as well as e-mail? I can't buy the "check your spam filters" when (a) so many didn't get it and (b) I regularly check my spam filters and it wasn't there either.
Important changes like this should be clearly communicated - such as a popup when someone logs in or visits the site, sitemail, some other positive-confirmation method so the agency is sure the contributor has actually received the notification.
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I did not receive it I don't even have a spam folder.
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same here .. no email and I checked the spam folder also :|
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I received no e-mail and my spam filter is okay.
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I didn't either - I know I've had the response from them before "check your e-mail, we sent you a message" and there was nothing there then either.
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I didn't get the mail either - I think 123rf might have had a problem with how this mail was sent. And as pointed out, why no site mail on this as well as e-mail? I can't buy the "check your spam filters" when (a) so many didn't get it and (b) I regularly check my spam filters and it wasn't there either.
Important changes like this should be clearly communicated - such as a popup when someone logs in or visits the site, sitemail, some other positive-confirmation method so the agency is sure the contributor has actually received the notification.
The same, I have not received the mail. Do not advertise on their website that accepts video? ....
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... Do not advertise on their website that accepts video? ....
That's right, they have an announcement about "news" for contributors from early December. That was about video, but the changes in royalties should have been there as well as via e-mail - and e-mail is as well as an on site notification.
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The two I had pending are accepted, 151 now online, hope I have snuck in.
Alex, thanks if you sorted this out.
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Hi All,
We're running analysis on stats to come up with a fair commission structure.
Do be patient. We will announce more when we've gained upper management buy in.
Thank you very much.
Alex.
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Nooooooooo please don't base your whole new structure on the experiences of a handful of contributors with very small portfolios (unless of course you are still going to maintain the same high level for the big guys bringing in most of the cash, then go for it ;D)
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Hi All,
We're running analysis on stats to come up with a fair commission structure.
Do be patient. We will announce more when we've gained upper management buy in.
Thank you very much.
Alex.
You don't need to do analysis for that.
Fair is 50%.
If you want to be fairer, pay 60%. Or 70%. Or even 80%.
There are agencies that do that.
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I didn't get the mail either - I think 123rf might have had a problem with how this mail was sent. And as pointed out, why no site mail on this as well as e-mail? I can't buy the "check your spam filters" when (a) so many didn't get it and (b) I regularly check my spam filters and it wasn't there either.
Important changes like this should be clearly communicated - such as a popup when someone logs in or visits the site, sitemail, some other positive-confirmation method so the agency is sure the contributor has actually received the notification.
I hasn't received anything either. Communicating this change through MSG is totally unprofessional.
Plus this special treatment of MSG contributors is unfair.
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I have just received an email from 123RF entitled '5 Benefits From Your 123RF Registration In 2012'. It does not mention the cut in commissions at all. This shows that emails from 123RF do get through to me in the normal way (this was not in my spam folder or anything, just in my regular mail inbox).
I repeat what others have said - I did not receive the commission cut email from 123RF and yes I have checked my spam and deleted folders.
Now please own up to the fact that this email did not get sent to everyone and you made a mistake. We are not all making it up!
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Thanks to this ongoing saga I completely lost my trust in 123RF.
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please watch closely what you are doing with this new royalty you are coming up with, I believe 50% is a nice deal, make it to all contributors, think of tomorrow not today
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Nooooooooo please don't base your whole new structure on the experiences of a handful of contributors with very small portfolios (unless of course you are still going to maintain the same high level for the big guys bringing in most of the cash, then go for it ;D)
luissantos is right - suppose an IS black diamond exclusive decides to give up the crown - would such a person be prepared to earn lower commissions than someone who just happened to have minimum files / sales on an arbitrary date? Crazy approach.
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I have just received an email from 123RF entitled '5 Benefits From Your 123RF Registration In 2012'. It does not mention the cut in commissions at all. This shows that emails from 123RF do get through to me in the normal way (this was not in my spam folder or anything, just in my regular mail inbox).
I repeat what others have said - I did not receive the commission cut email from 123RF and yes I have checked my spam and deleted folders.
Now please own up to the fact that this email did not get sent to everyone and you made a mistake. We are not all making it up!
I didn't get any e-mail with that title. I just checked (a) my spam folder and (b) my 123rf profile to make sure it showed the correct e-mail address, which it does (I haven't changed it in years) and (c) my site mail at 123rf (the most recent thing is vector price changes from nearly a year ago). Nada.
I used to get newsletters from 123rf via e-mail and haven't had one of those in a long time. Perhaps there's something broken in how communications are being sent out to contributors.
With this many people not getting things 123rf says they're sending, this is more than just a spam filter problem.
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Nooooooooo please don't base your whole new structure on the experiences of a handful of contributors with very small portfolios (unless of course you are still going to maintain the same high level for the big guys bringing in most of the cash, then go for it ;D)
luissantos is right - suppose an IS black diamond exclusive decides to give up the crown - would such a person be prepared to earn lower commissions than someone who just happened to have minimum files / sales on an arbitrary date? Crazy approach.
After a couple of months the new commission level will seem like the norm at the site for new people. I mean people have been prepared to accept waaaaay less on other sites so I can't see that they would object too much.
I mean most of us still contribute to Fotolia even though some Europeans like me who are stuck on the US site are getting a massive chunk less than someone making the same sales living next door who signed up to the Euro paying site.
I doubt an exclusive's decision to sign up will be based on what some other guy is earning; just how much sense the decision makes financially in an objective sense.
At least 123 has tried to accommodate the people who supported the site in getting to where it is today by safeguarding their levels.
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I mean most of us still contribute to Fotolia even though some Europeans like me who are stuck on the US site are getting a massive chunk less than someone making the same sales living next door who signed up to the Euro paying site.
sight +1
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The problem is not the change in commission but the total amateurism in the way to communicate this and the attitude towards the international contributors is a shame for a worldwide company.
1. At first no communication at all only on this msg site there was a first message on this.
2. After some weeks of feedback of the worried users on this forum finally 123rf putted that contributors had received an email on this. I've written an email to the office of 123rf in Belgium an even there they didn't know anything about changes coming up. Above this it seems ,although they claim they did send an email(why not mention it from the beginning), nobody received an email after all.
3. Till today nobody knows what the new commission scheme will be. Nothing on the 123rf website, what is the use of having a blog on 123rf anyway ?
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Nooooooooo please don't base your whole new structure on the experiences of a handful of contributors with very small portfolios (unless of course you are still going to maintain the same high level for the big guys bringing in most of the cash, then go for it ;D)
luissantos is right - suppose an IS black diamond exclusive decides to give up the crown - would such a person be prepared to earn lower commissions than someone who just happened to have minimum files / sales on an arbitrary date? Crazy approach.
After a couple of months the new commission level will seem like the norm at the site for new people. I mean people have been prepared to accept waaaaay less on other sites so I can't see that they would object too much.
I mean most of us still contribute to Fotolia even though some Europeans like me who are stuck on the US site are getting a massive chunk less than someone making the same sales living next door who signed up to the Euro paying site.
I doubt an exclusive's decision to sign up will be based on what some other guy is earning; just how much sense the decision makes financially in an objective sense.
At least 123 has tried to accommodate the people who supported the site in getting to where it is today by safeguarding their levels.
Maybe you’re right and some folks wouldn’t mind being treated as 2nd class citizens based on some random criterion. Personally I don’t mind that folks with a track record like yourself get a better return per sale than I do because it’s based on performance and / or loyalty / exclusivity etc. However, on pure principle, would not now sign up with this site even though it’s the next logical choice. This won’t make the slightest difference but there are exponentially more mes than yous in this game so large numbers with similar attitude could make a difference. Also, consider that folks with very small ports and sales will have made the cut here where exclusive big performers won’t. People are coming away from some sites because they feel that they are being unfairly treated even though it will cause a lot of pain, at least in the short term – do you really think they will accept plebeian status where there is absolutely nothing to lose? Would you?
Completely disagree with 7horses on this one. The communication is just optics, the problem is an inherently discriminatory commission system. The only thing that humans hate more than being treated less favourably than their peers is betrayal.
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The 50% commission is something I've always admired, and they proved in my opinion that it is possible to grow in the microstock industry whilst still being fair to their contributors. They have been growing at a fast pace for the last year to 18 months or so.
To me, once an agency gets the buyers/traffic, they've also got us by the balls and can do pretty much what they like, as we'll just keep coming. iStock tries to tout how much they pay to contributors (not the royalty, but the total amount they payout), they obviously don't want to focus on the royalties as they would look bad. Quite simply the more an agency is successful the less percentage they are willing to give us. Why should it be like that, if anything it should work the other way round, they take more when they are starting, once they become successful they give us back more. Obviously I know that is incredibly idealistic and I live in the same world as you do where ideals are laughed at, but in an ideal world that would be the way it should work. It doesn't work like that because businesses have too much free reign to do whatever they choose, even at the expense of what makes them. I touched upon (ranted) about the same subject in a recent blog post, The power of the crowd (http://www.microstockposts.com/the-power-of-the-crowd/).
123rf, like the rest of us (and buyers too), have seen just how much istock have been bad mouthed across the web since September 2010, and this must have played a part also in iStock's current decline. They made the wise decision of not upsetting contributors who are already with them, but it was a business decision. I opened my account on 123rf in 2007, this has nothing to do with my loyalty but purely to do when I discovered them and opened my account. It sucks knowing that you get less than others in the same company, doing the same job. There will be plenty of people who won't submit because of this, but probably not enough for 123rf to reverse their decision.
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I didn't receive any email and its not in my spam folder. I'm already well across the line.
Although I'd rather see 50% carried across the board I appreciate that because I have been supporting 123rf over a number of years I'm not losing my % commission.
I think extending the period to get to the threshold would be fair in this instance as clearly alot of people didn't get the communication and may not even know at this moment.
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What does "Have registered with 123RF.com before February 1, 2012." mean? Do existing members who meet all criteria need to register somewhere?
If not, its kind of confusing. How is it even possible to have 150 accepted images by Jan 9 AND NOT be registered before Feb 1 (I take being registered as meaning a signed up member). What exactly does registered mean ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Contributor's Message of the Day
January 18, 2012 - Change in Commission Structure
We will be changing our Contributors’ commission structure effective February 1, 2012.
Here’s what you need to know:
All existing contributors shall continue to enjoy the current 50% nett commission share ONLY IF they fulfill ALL of the following criteria.:
Have registered with 123RF.com before February 1, 2012.
Have at least 150 accepted images in their respective portfolios by January 9, 2012.
Have had a minimum of 10 paid downloads by January 27, 2012.
All new contributors who start submitting images to 123RF.com AFTER January 27, 2012 OR do not meet all the criteria above shall be enrolled under the new commission structure.
For our veteran contributors who have been supporting us all this while, we thank you for your support and we will try our best to grow the business further in 2012. We will also try our very best to maintain the levels of 50% nett commission to you for as long as possible.
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It doesn't make any sense at all!
Be registered by the 1st of February but have to have had 150 images approved by the 9th of January??????
I believe if you weren't registered before the 9th of January there would be no way to get 150 images approved by then!
And then having to have had 10 downloads by the 27th of January!
That's 2.5 weeks after you would have had to have had 159 images online so they better be dam good or you are SOL!
Either way it sounds as if they are out after really big time Microstock photogs that are above the rest and are now going to treat the rest as just that "the rest".
Even if some of the big dogs didn't make it in time they will now be small dogs because of the requirements.
Flat out discrimination the way i see it.
Perhaps a little more clarification would be nice because the statement doesn't make any sense at all!
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To be fair, I do feel like 123RF gave us plenty of opportunity to meet the requirement. I found out about the change on this site on 2012-01-01 and uploaded my port over the next several days. The uploaded images were reviewed over the next five days and I met my sales quota by the 2012-01-09 deadline.
Meeting the stated quota's was easily doable, even if you had a small port and little more than a week to upload them.
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Hi everyone, this is my first post on this forum and it is sad that it must be on this occasion.
I've been with them since 2006 and had nearly 1500 images there. in September last year I have
deleted images that were not selling and ended up with 90 files.
After that clean up my earnings went from a pay every two months to almost nothing.
As there is no way to restore my deleted images and there are massive rejections on a new ones
I am left with no other choice but to delete all the rest of images from that agency
and close my account as I already did with IS.
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Hi everyone, this is my first post on this forum and it is sad that it must be on this occasion.
I've been with them since 2006 and had nearly 1500 images there. in September last year I have
deleted images that were not selling and ended up with 90 files.
After that clean up my earnings went from a pay every two months to almost nothing.
As there is no way to restore my deleted images and there are massive rejections on a new ones
I am left with no other choice but to delete all the rest of images from that agency
and close my account as I already did with IS.
You had 1500 images and you deleted 1410 of them? It seems to me you didn't really want to make any money there anyway.
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in September last year I have deleted images that were not selling and ended up with 90 files.
After that clean up my earnings went from a pay every two months to almost nothing.
I am completely baffled when I hear of people deleting "non-selling" images in their ports with the expectation that this will somehow drive more sales.
Can someone explain how this is supposed to work?
The only thing this might do to help someone feel better is drive up RPI, but this would be an artificial way to get there. I use RPI as a valuable tool to tell me if I am uploading the right stuff that people want, but it only works if I don't try to pull tricks like deleting the non-selling stuff.
But RPI is not a number that pays the bills. So how does deleting images help you, exactly? I don't expect dmg to answer, since this obviously hasn't worked for him, but has this actually ever worked for ANYONE?
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Never ever delete images!
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you had the "trouble" to upload/approve them and after that you delete them?? thats insane really.. one thing is to quit on the agency because of royalties or other strong attitude from them, if not its just nuts :/
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in September last year I have deleted images that were not selling and ended up with 90 files.
After that clean up my earnings went from a pay every two months to almost nothing.
I am completely baffled when I hear of people deleting "non-selling" images in their ports with the expectation that this will somehow drive more sales.
Can someone explain how this is supposed to work?
The only thing this might do to help someone feel better is drive up RPI, but this would be an artificial way to get there. I use RPI as a valuable tool to tell me if I am uploading the right stuff that people want, but it only works if I don't try to pull tricks like deleting the non-selling stuff.
But RPI is not a number that pays the bills. So how does deleting images help you, exactly? I don't expect dmg to answer, since this obviously hasn't worked for him, but has this actually ever worked for ANYONE?
Well, I had a "plan" that I don't want to go into details of it now. It wasn't to drive more sales on my mind when I was doing that.
The reason I am talking about it now is to show that deleting non-selling images not only kills sales
but may also bring such unexpected results as in this case.
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you had the "trouble" to upload/approve them and after that you delete them?? thats insane really.. one thing is to quit on the agency because of royalties or other strong attitude from them, if not its just nuts :/
Yes, you are perfectly right. That's why I am going to quit now because of royalties >:(
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Out of curiosity, DMG, did you plan include eventual Istock exclusivity? If so, then your deleting of images by sales makes more sense. And with Istock's recent developments it also makes sense that you might have changed your mind about going exclusive.
If this is the case, you have my sympathies. There are probably quite a few in a similar situation right now.
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Out of curiosity, DMG, did you plan include eventual Istock exclusivity? If so, then your deleting of images by sales makes more sense. And with Istock's recent developments it also makes sense that you might have changed your mind about going exclusive.
If this is the case, you have my sympathies. There are probably quite a few in a similar situation right now.
Well, something like that.
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Out of curiosity, DMG, did you plan include eventual Istock exclusivity? If so, then your deleting of images by sales makes more sense. And with Istock's recent developments it also makes sense that you might have changed your mind about going exclusive.
If this is the case, you have my sympathies. There are probably quite a few in a similar situation right now.
Well, something like that.
Very sorry to hear you got stuck this way. Had you removed a lot of images from DT too? I feel bad for anyone who had a large port on DT and was removing them to go exclusive at IS. DT is so strict on similars now, I think it would be very difficult for most of us to get the same images accepted these days.
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Very sorry to hear you got stuck this way. Had you removed a lot of images from DT too? I feel bad for anyone who had a large port on DT and was removing them to go exclusive at IS. DT is so strict on similars now, I think it would be very difficult for most of us to get the same images accepted these days.
I never had so many images there becauese of similars. DT is not a problem as they do not delete images immediately. It is possible to enable most of them.
SS have also a great feature that you can take off line whole portfolio and easily get it back if you change your mind.
Unfortunately 123RF deletes everything forever.
I wonder if the owners or some agencies have ever thought of that, if let's say, a thousand of submitters deletes a thousand files each
that makes 1 million files less.
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Very sorry to hear you got stuck this way. Had you removed a lot of images from DT too? I feel bad for anyone who had a large port on DT and was removing them to go exclusive at IS. DT is so strict on similars now, I think it would be very difficult for most of us to get the same images accepted these days.
I never had so many images there becauese of similars. DT is not a problem as they do not delete images immediately. It is possible to enable most of them.
SS have also a great feature that you can take off line whole portfolio and easily get it back if you change your mind.
Unfortunately 123RF deletes everything forever.
I wonder if the owners or some agencies have ever thought of that, if let's say, a thousand of submitters deletes a thousand files each
that makes 1 million files less.
Some of the smaller sites like Crestock and Veer also allow you to keep your files there but make them inactive, so some of the other sites do see the value in this type of thing.
Maybe you could talk to 123 customer service and see if there's anything they can do for you. Whatever happens, I hope you are able to recover your income quickly :)
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Thank you Lisa :)
I don't know if I still want to talk to them. It would be nice if they can help but I would not cry if they don't.
From my experience I know that as they started to do such things, they would not stop on newbies only.
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What about contributors that used to submit to 123RF but have gone exclusive with iStock? I had over 1000 images accepted and over 1000 sales, if I were to return to 123RF would I get the lower rates?
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What about contributors that used to submit to 123RF but have gone exclusive with iStock? I had over 1000 images accepted and over 1000 sales, if I were to return to 123RF would I get the lower rates?
On the surface, it would appear so. The only definitive answer would have to come from 123RF customer service.
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What about contributors that used to submit to 123RF but have gone exclusive with iStock? I had over 1000 images accepted and over 1000 sales, if I were to return to 123RF would I get the lower rates?
Um I would think your out of luck there. Being exclusive at Istock wasn't really supporting 123rf.
Maybe they might have a deal in the future for ex Istock exclusives to drop the crown but Istock seems to have a plan of their own to achieve that.
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What about contributors that used to submit to 123RF but have gone exclusive with iStock? I had over 1000 images accepted and over 1000 sales, if I were to return to 123RF would I get the lower rates?
Um I would think your out of luck there. Being exclusive at Istock wasn't really supporting 123rf.
Maybe they might have a deal in the future for ex Istock exclusives to drop the crown but Istock seems to have a plan of their own to achieve that.
That was very well put. :)
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What about contributors that used to submit to 123RF but have gone exclusive with iStock? I had over 1000 images accepted and over 1000 sales, if I were to return to 123RF would I get the lower rates?
Um I would think your out of luck there. Being exclusive at Istock wasn't really supporting 123rf.
Maybe they might have a deal in the future for ex Istock exclusives to drop the crown but Istock seems to have a plan of their own to achieve that.
That was very well put. :)
This is what alex123rf said on page 2: "We're only doing this for the new contributors, as it is, we believe that photographers with good portfolios will not be severely penalized as their level of sales should bring them up to where they fairly need to be relatively quickly." Exclusives that contributed to 123RF are not new contributors, so where do they fall. I don't think this plan was put in to punish people that weren't supporting 123RF but I'll wait to see what alex says.
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This is what alex123rf said on page 2: "We're only doing this for the new contributors, as it is, we believe that photographers with good portfolios will not be severely penalized as their level of sales should bring them up to where they fairly need to be relatively quickly." Exclusives that contributed to 123RF are not new contributors, so where do they fall. I don't think this plan was put in to punish people that weren't supporting 123RF but I'll wait to see what alex says.
Hope you'll report back when you hear the answer. This could potentially affect a lot of people. FWIW, I think 123RF would be wise to make joining attractive to IS former exclusives. There may be quite a lot of them over the next year or so.
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Hi All,
We can allow your files to be deactivated (not on sale) and then deactivate your account. However, we have had instances when photographers literally told us that it's a crime to keep even a backup copy of their files when they leave. So which is which? To make things simple we just made a rule when you go, we'll delete all your files, it's much cleaner and simpler to explain in this manner.
So which is it now? Do advise!
Alex.
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Hi All,
We can allow your files to be deactivated (not on sale) and then deactivate your account. However, we have had instances when photographers literally told us that it's a crime to keep even a backup copy of their files when they leave. So which is which? To make things simple we just made a rule when you go, we'll delete all your files, it's much cleaner and simpler to explain in this manner.
So which is it now? Do advise!
Alex.
Is this a response to my question? You can have whatever policy you want, delete or disable that's your choice. I assume your answer means that if an exclusive artist decides to go back to 123RF they would get the lower pay rate.
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Hi Alex,
I know for myself personally if I asked any agency to remove my folio then I would expect them to REMOVE it, not keep a backup. So I'm glad that is your policy (not that I'm thinking of leaving you guys!) and I strongly feel that is the best and only practical approach to the matter.
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Hi Alex,
I know for myself personally if I asked any agency to remove my folio then I would expect them to REMOVE it, not keep a backup. So I'm glad that is your policy (not that I'm thinking of leaving you guys!) and I strongly feel that is the best and only practical approach to the matter.
Personally, I don't agree. When I became an exclusive IS contributor, I asked those sites that didn't make it obvious whether or not I could de-activate my account without deleting my images. A couple did, most did not. So far I haven't cared one way or another, but if things continue to deteriorate the way they seem to be, I'll be happy to pick up where I left off at those that did.
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Hi All,
We can allow your files to be deactivated (not on sale) and then deactivate your account. However, we have had instances when photographers literally told us that it's a crime to keep even a backup copy of their files when they leave. So which is which? To make things simple we just made a rule when you go, we'll delete all your files, it's much cleaner and simpler to explain in this manner.
So which is it now? Do advise!
Alex.
So, after 5+ years with you I have no other choice than leave? Nice!
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So new royalty rates come into effect today (i think!) - can't wait to see how they have implemented it.
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So new royalty rates come into effect today (i think!) - can't wait to see how they have implemented it.
No mention of the new rates to be found yet on the site - the FAQ still shows the "old" 50% for all...
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We can allow your files to be deactivated (not on sale) and then deactivate your account. However, we have had instances when photographers literally told us that it's a crime to keep even a backup copy of their files when they leave. So which is which? To make things simple we just made a rule when you go, we'll delete all your files, it's much cleaner and simpler to explain in this manner.
So which is it now? Do advise!
Hey Alex. I was very happy about 123RF since 2005. I didn't upload though since a year because I was a bit scared about the automated inspection process, outsourced to India or Timbuktu, but that's not so important. After an average of 30$/mo, in January I got barely 9$ on 123RF (less than 100$ in total on all sites) and that was the limit I was drawing to myself to throw all my stuff for free full size on Flickr and leave microstock. Or I will have m own site, also fr free. I will decide end of February but if you keep a backup or not, I don't really care then. Under 10$/mo is too low to stay.
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So still no word on the new rates? Don't tell me it will be delayed again - we want to know whats going on 123rf! (not that it affects me, but still...)
Hope to hear soon
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Hi All,
We can allow your files to be deactivated (not on sale) and then deactivate your account. However, we have had instances when photographers literally told us that it's a crime to keep even a backup copy of their files when they leave. So which is which? To make things simple we just made a rule when you go, we'll delete all your files, it's much cleaner and simpler to explain in this manner.
So which is it now? Do advise!
Alex.
I think I know where you are coming from here Alex. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That being said, this whole thing has a very "Ready-Fire-Aim" feel to it. I would hope that you have at the very least a legal consultant in place to help you guys make decisions vs. relying on a photographer telling you it's a crime to keep a backup copy of your file.
Reading between the lines of your post I am picking up that it is impossible to make everyone happy. This is most unfortunately true in most every business in every industry. I wish you the best of luck here sincerely as I believe 123rf is a site teetering precariously on the line of potential success. With the existing commission structure and the (too) low prices it's probably a huge challenge to remain profitable. Change it and you run the risk of pushing out the photographers that aren't making enough to stay truly loyal at this point as it is which also creates a challenge to become competitive. The way you are implying it is going to be done is also implying a Grandfather clause that in all reality probably can't remain in place for a long time. A result is that you could be setting yourself up to really burn some of your most loyal members down the road. The lack of real information with the hints and innuendos is in my opinion making it look like you guys are really struggling to figure out what to do. Sometimes you've got to just make a decision and own it. Even if it's the wrong decision it might be better than not making a decision at all.
You said to advise so here it is...Raise your prices, lower your commissions. Make the dollar amount we earn higher on a lower percentage for photographers and earn more dollars yourself. You've got the database, you've got some visibility and a bit of momentum...use it.
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It's now February 9th, and still no word as far as I can see on the new commission structure that was to take effect on February 1st.
I logged out and logged in again so I could see if there new messages (I can't figure out where to find those notes to contributors if I'm already logged in) and the last one is the January 18th post saying that there would be a change and that details would be made available.
Has 123rf changed their mind about this? If nothing else it seems very odd to me to leave the site with a notice about something that clearly didn't happen on February 1st. Can we please get an update - and get the site updated with current information or just remove the January 18th post if you aren't changing anything?
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I agree, this is crazy. How can you make an announcement TWICE about new changes, and then never reveal them?! Over a week late is pretty unacceptable. I love 123RF, but they need to improve their communication. I don't think I have ever received one of their emails others have talked about (other than the newsletter!).
Please give us an update guys
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Hi Everyone,
I do apologize for the silence. We have reached a decision and confident that we have a plan that can cater for the long term growth of sales and earnings.
We will make the official announcement in a day or two and it will be available on 123RF.com.
I don't come empty handed though:
1. the qualification rule has been lifted, and
2. the date of implementation will be stretched till January 1, 2013, thereafter, we'll use the new commission payout structure.
Further details on the MOTD as you login into the contributor account on 123RF within 48 hours.
Let's keep on rockin'!
Alex.
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Thank you Alex. Does that mean everyone sees a new commission structure on January 1, 2013 or only new contributors after that time?
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HI Jo Ann,
It's a system wide rollover for simplicity's sake, however, it does take into account seniority depending on how long you've been with us in 2012, at least.
Alex.
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For simplicity's sake, is it a (delayed) pay-cut for all or not?
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With info like that you may aswell have come empty handed.
Unclear comments that fuel more questions and doubt than answers.
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I'll save my screaming and hollering for later - who knows what might happen between now and 2013? However, the notion that 123rf is to be the latest in a long and ignominious line of agencies upping their take and reducing that of contributors isn't good news.
Forgive me if I'm not all that interested in hearing about 123rf increasing their "long term growth".
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It's a system wide rollover for simplicity's sake,
So to make it easy on yourself you will be reducing commissions for all contributors on January 1, 2013. Am I reading that correct?
Please consider increasing the prices of the files if you intend to decrease the commission.
Mat
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It's a system wide rollover for simplicity's sake,
So to make it easy on yourself you will be reducing commissions for all contributors on January 1, 2013. Am I reading that correct?
Please consider increasing the prices of the files if you intend to decrease the commission.
Mat
shall we discuss FT? :P
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It's a system wide rollover for simplicity's sake,
So to make it easy on yourself you will be reducing commissions for all contributors on January 1, 2013. Am I reading that correct?
Huh?!! Before it was for new contributors, in 2013 it's going to be ALL contributors? I don't see how you can apply this to everyone "for simplicity's sake" while at the same time "taking into account seniority".
I'm not trying to be combative at all, but this seems like a major change from what we were told. Now I am more confused than ever. ???
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It amazes me that Amazon can pay e-book authors 70% and these agencies think they are worth more than even 50%. Moreso that WE let them get away with it. Not to mention that Amazon lets you pick and change your prices, run specials offer freebies.
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Could we have some clarity please. Is it new contributors only effective 2013 or is it ALL contributors effective 2013 or is it something in between ?
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All...
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All...
Well, there you go, that's nice and simple isn't it. I guess everyones happy now ;D >:(
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Wow, well done to those who weren't even with or actively contributing to 123 and to 123 for listening to them >:(
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Is this greed?
Maybe being on top tier had something to do with this.
I hope you realize that your current position above Fotolia has something to do with Fotolia's greed and their treatment of contributors. Please, don't make the same mistakes.
This is going to hurt long term growth.
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No need to worry!
We still have yet to make it past 12/21/12.
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Microstock Act? "The bigger, greedier"
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Alex can you please explain us what is going on here? I am confused too
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HI Jo Ann,
It's a system wide rollover for simplicity's sake, however, it does take into account seniority depending on how long you've been with us in 2012, at least.
Alex.
All...
This is about a clear as mud.
I don't understand why sites continue to post ambiguous statements in a public forum.
All that does is cause anxiety and rampant speculation amongst contributors.
Why don't you privately contact a select group of members to get their feedback beforehand?
Wouldn't that be a better way to take the communities temperature than what you are currently doing?
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Hi Everyone,
I do apologize for the silence. We have reached a decision and confident that we have a plan that can cater for the long term growth of sales and earnings.
We will make the official announcement in a day or two and it will be available on 123RF.com.
I don't come empty handed though:
1. the qualification rule has been lifted, and
2. the date of implementation will be stretched till January 1, 2013, thereafter, we'll use the new commission payout structure.
Further details on the MOTD as you login into the contributor account on 123RF within 48 hours.
Let's keep on rockin'!
Alex.
Time and date of post is Reply #149 on: February 12, 2012, 22:51 »
So it is 47 hours and nothing on the site as of now?
It is well within 48 hours and should be up by now.
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All...
Well, there you go, that's nice and simple isn't it. I guess everyones happy now ;D >:(
Wow. That really sucks. Despite reports of increases from smaller sellers, my experience with 123RF is 5 years of stagnant income, regardless of significant yearly portfolio growth.
As it is, 123 only represents around 2% or my income. If that drops, they will become completely irrelevant. I would like to hear some more details so I can decide if 123RF is going to be worth my time.
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Wow, well done to those who weren't even with or actively contributing to 123 and to 123 for listening to them >:(
I don't think anyone wants to see sites dropping commissions.
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All...
Good Luck and put your helmet on.
You guys aren't big enough and in my opinion haven't garnered enough loyalty to make a crazy, vague, indecisive move like this. The back and forth, contradictory messages have rattled my confidence in you. I hope you guys can get it together. As I've mentioned before, I see potential with 123rf but at this point in my opinion it's drifting away.
Mat
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I'm going to wait until we have something to be upset about before I worry too much. From what we know, nothing will change for another ten months. And 123RF has been good to me; they're my #5 earner over the past four years, #4 over the last year and #3 for the last three months. Aside from their slow review process (19 days and counting), I've had no complaints. So I'll hope the news isn't too bad and then reevaluate when I know something.
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Further details on the MOTD as you login into the contributor account on 123RF within 48 hours.
Alex.
Not looking good it has been well over 48 hours and there is still no info as of yet?
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Hi everyone,
The new commission structure is up. You can read it as you log into 123RF and the structure is right below the captcha entry.
I thank you for your patience and for those who have afforded us some amount of faith - I personally thank you very much. I am open to all questions and I promise to answer each and every one. As usual we'll be upfront about things.
All I can say is, allow our track record to speak for itself. We came from humble beginnings have outlasted quite a few agencies and we aren't stopping our growth. I do apologize for dismal review times, I acknowledge we're a bit slow but we're hammering out the videos platform this month, our attention is focused there somewhat.
We are making quite a number of changes most importantly - we've been given the go ahead to expand the operations department threefold. I believe in about 2 months time, long review times will be a thing of the past.
I welcome your questions.... As usual :)
Alex.
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RC's on 123RF too :D
if sales continue to grow I believe I will keep the 50%, thats quite soon to predict lol
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Ok... 10 months to get my port up to speed.
1 question Alex.
Where do I find out what my credit total is? Is that my earnings x2?
Now I see it's not that simple. I hope some way to view credits is coming because the spreadsheet thing is a pain.
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This appears on the Captcha page you get on 123RF every time you try to look at it... I guess it doesn't parse very well , so log in to see in an easier format. (or try to figure out the cut and paste below my comments).
It looks like if you don't get 5,000 RC you will see a cut. If you get 20,000 and up you will see more.
I haven't tried to add up my RC totals according to the chart. I hope they put RC totals on the earnings page (or somewhere else).
Without looking at the fine print I am guessing that this will be a cut for most. (otherwise why do it?).
Under .22 for a sub sale is way too low.
123RF Commission Change
123RF.com will be changing its Contributor Commission Payout on January 1, 2013. From now till then, 123RF.com shall continue paying our Contributors at a rate of:
50% net value for credits
$0.36 per download for subscriptions
From January 1, 2013 onwards – 123RF.com shall adopt the new Contributor Commission Payout schedule depicted in the table below:
12 Month Credit Total
Contributor Level
Net Commission
( Credits )
Earnings Per Download
( Subscription )
0 - 249
1
30%
$0.216
250 – 999
2
35%
$0.252
1,000 – 1,999
3
40%
$0.288
2,000 – 4,999
4
45%
$0.324
5,000 – 19,999
5
50%
$0.360
20,000 – 49,999
6
52%
$0.374
50,000 – 99,999
7
54%
$0.389
100,000 – 499,999
8
56%
$0.403
500,000 – 999,999
9
58%
$0.418
1,000,000 and above
10
60%
$0.432
123RF.com shall round the monthly cumulative earnings to the nearest $0.01.
The mechanics of deriving a Contributor’s Commission are as follows:
At the end of every month, a Contributor’s total credits from all downloads in the previous 12 months shall be summed according to this table:
Image Size
Credits
Subscription
1
S
1
M
2
L
3
XL
4
XXL
5
XXL TIFF
10
EPS
10
Image Size
Credits
100MB TIFF
20
200 MB TIFF
40
300 MB TIFF
60
Print EL
50
Electronic EL
75
Comprehensive EL
100
Multiseat
25
The summed credit amount shall determine the Contributor’s Level.
The Contributor’s level will determine the commissions for each download in the preceding month.
The aim of the new Commission Structure:
Rewards Contributors who consistently send in quality Content that are in high demand to 123RF.com.
Takes into account the Contributor’s performance and consistency as well as acknowledge loyalty.
Takes into account the growth of contributors vs. the growth of sales and the dynamic relationship between the two growth factors.
Gives a stable, measureable, predictable and most important of all, specific milestones for achieving targets.
Fosters healthy competition for new and old contributors alike.
Encourages consistent and sustained uploading of fresh content to 123RF.com.
Takes into account every seasonal sales variation or fluctuation and changes.
Some Questions & Answers
What if I don’t have 12 months worth of downloads?
We shall sum up the previous 12 months, whether or not you have complete 12 months.
What about refunds, fraudulent downloads and cancellations?
We understand that refunds, cancellations and fraudulent downloads can be reversed at any time. We shall take all efforts to take these into account, however, once we have tabulated a contributor’s level for the month, it would stay stagnant for the preceding month.
Would 123RF be amending these figures every year?
No, we expect this commission structure to be in effect for at least 3 years as we feel stability and predictability are values that our Contributors would appreciate, and 123RF.com has grown to a level that we have a very mature and established Contributor community.
Is there a possibility that my Contributor Level might drop?
Yes, your Contributor Level may drop as we take into account your previous performance spanning 12 months.
If you have any further questions, kindly feel free to email [email protected] with your inquiries directly.
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Okay, I just exercised some Excel-fu and ran my results from February, 2011 through January, 2012 to see where I would have fallen in their new scheme. Assuming I've done everything correctly, which I may not have done as some category naming is inconsistent (my earnings report shows XXL TIFF and XXL MH, which I'm guessing correspond to XXL TIFF and XXL respectively), I'm comfortably in level 4 and nowhere near level 5. Which means a 10% drop in both subscription and credit royalties for me starting next year. Not as bad as what iStock and Fotolia did to me a year ago, but not the sort of thing to engender my loyalty. I will of course consider the amount I earn at 123RF and not just my royalty rate, but at first blush I'm not feeling the love.
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The House wins again. So far the increase in earnings I see at SS have just about made up for all the other companies taking my money away, but it can't go on forever.
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I didn't do excel fu, but I did do a quick eyeball of the sales, and unless 123RF picks up considerably I'll be dropping at least one and probably 2 levels.
I guess it will be nice to earn 50% for another 11 months, hopefully by then sales will have picked up enough so I won't need the lube, but I am doubtful. Nope - not a good way to engender loyalty.
I guess it will be business as usual for a year. If the subs sales are too low after that 123RF might go the way of IS. That would be unfortunate. Look what happened to iS and FT...
Really - keeping me at 50% would provide "stability and predictability" that I "would appreciate". Not some sort of iStock RC BS #$%^@$%^
ok, I'll shut up and go away 'til Jan 2013 on this one now.
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Just performed Excel Fu on my numbers...
I project my total 2012 sales should reach Level 6, but just by the skin of my teeth, so I may see an increase of 2%.
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I don't have a full year of data to work on (I only returned to 123rf in June 2011) and only part of my portfolio was online for some of that time, blah, blah, blah, but...
I made a spreadsheet out of the monthly earnings information - which, by the way, 123rf MUST make available as a downloadable CSV (if they were being helpful, sales should include the RC numbers as well as downloads) and expect I'd be at level 4, which would give me 45%.
That's if I decide to stay.
I can't tell you how utterly disgusted I am with this move by you, 123rf. There is nothing beyond naked greed at work. What did you do for me this week. And I fully expect you to keep increasing the numbers required and decreasing the payouts - why wouldn't you? Once you've decided it's OK to rip contributors off once, what's to stop you doing it over and over?
You've looked around and seen the crap the other sites are pulling and decided there's no reason for you to be decent to contributors. The "reasons" you list are beyond ridiculous - healthy competition among contributors? This isn't a holiday camp with contests and prizes. The reward is the money we make for our sales, and you've just reduced it for most of us.
So how do you think the site will look with the factory producers - all of whom produce masses of look-alikes - and nothing else? You clearly don't want the lower-volume contributors as you're penalizing them by cutting their royalties.
I'll leave my portfolio alone while I think about what to to - and calm down - but I honestly don't see any point in investing time and effort in your site with terms like these on the horizon.
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Please reconsider this move.
As you said, you had a humble start and you were one of those fair agencies.
You got to your position giving contributors 50%.
Now you say that you will implement an istock style RC system.
That's really discouraging to contributors and they can decide to upload to other agencies that may grow like you in the past and overcome you just like you did with others.
This kind of greed is unsustainable. Contributors may just stop producing good content for greedy agencies and will upload to other or search for other business plans. This is the start of the fall for 123RF, just as it was the start of the fall for istock or fotolia when they announced similar 'growth schemes'.
Don't you learn from other's mistakes?
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I don't have a full year of data to work on (I only returned to 123rf in June 2011) and only part of my portfolio was online for some of that time, blah, blah, blah, but...
I made a spreadsheet out of the monthly earnings information - which, by the way, 123rf MUST make available as a downloadable CSV (if they were being helpful, sales should include the RC numbers as well as downloads) and expect I'd be at level 4, which would give me 45%.
That's if I decide to stay.
I can't tell you how utterly disgusted I am with this move by you, 123rf. There is nothing beyond naked greed at work. What did you do for me this week. And I fully expect you to keep increasing the numbers required and decreasing the payouts - why wouldn't you? Once you've decided it's OK to rip contributors off once, what's to stop you doing it over and over?
You've looked around and seen the crap the other sites are pulling and decided there's no reason for you to be decent to contributors. The "reasons" you list are beyond ridiculous - healthy competition among contributors? This isn't a holiday camp with contests and prizes. The reward is the money we make for our sales, and you've just reduced it for most of us.
So how do you think the site will look with the factory producers - all of whom produce masses of look-alikes - and nothing else? You clearly don't want the lower-volume contributors as you're penalizing them by cutting their royalties.
I'll leave my portfolio alone while I think about what to to - and calm down - but I honestly don't see any point in investing time and effort in your site with terms like these on the horizon.
Fully agree.
Let's remember: We pay you for marketing and selling our images. And I do not see any reason to pay you more if you are selling less of my images.
I will wait for what changes you will implement to that scheme, but I am not optimistic. I will decide around year end if I delete my portfolio.
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Great! 15% pay cut in one fell swoop! So much for fairness etc etc etc - and those hoops to qualify and remain at 50%!
I'm sure I'm like many, and only started to upload to 123RF yes - to sell some photos - but also to support a decent agency.
Rethink necessary I fear!
:(
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I will end at 45%, thanks for the 10% pay-cut!
From a purely financial point of view, there's little to worry about. Experience at two other sites tells us that sales (not just earnings) at sites choosing this route will go down and sales at Shutterstock will go up, because some photographers will leave or stop uploading, the site will slowly decline, some buyers will leave... The site will earn the same or less (not more) from less sales and higher %, and we will earn the same total from all sites. It's a zero-sum game in the end.
But in general I would like a healthy balance between agencies instead of a big one getting bigger and bigger - despite the fact that I like that specific big one very much.
You have almost 1 year left to rethink, for everybody's sake.
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Shutterstock loves this.
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great. So one of my favourite sites 123rf is also on the way to catch IS. though i have a small port but i am continuously making efforts to increase the size and my upload has been limited to few sites including 123rf. But as i and others are gradually decreasing their efforts on unfriendly sites i afraid that even 123rf will also fall on this category. This site was doing great for me and many others. And it has acquired higher rank than fotolia also as we can see at the rank table but with cutting contributors pockets now 123rf may also go down. I wish 123rf atleast start selling photos like SS.
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How many people here ever bothered to check their credit sales stats ?
As far as I'm concerned 123RF is the agency with the most discounted credit packages .
For example - last 20 credit sales - only 15% are full price credits . The other 85% range between 5 and 50% discounts .
What's the difference for the contributor if on one agency he gets 25% of a full price credit and on the other 50% of a 50% discount ?
Apparently nobody cares about that but now that a commission cut is announced everybody looks really concerned
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Well, I will enjoy my sales until years end, and then decide what to do. If 123rf continues to be the low earner it is currently for me, I might drop out.
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Thanks 123rf can't wait for the paycut, thanks for rewarding us for supporting you and keeping you in business.
What was the point of the proposed grandfathering ?
Seems you learnt some dirty tricks from Istock ?
Very disappointed !!!!!!
I will need to consider whether to bother uploading to your agency as it makes up 5% of my earnings. My time may be better spent elsewhere.
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The fact that 123rf only earns me about 3% of my income made me reduce my activity there as it is almost irrelevant. Yet the easiness of upload and approval kept me still in touch.
Now I predict I'm going to fall in the 3rd lowest category of all, receiving a cut in the commissions for my sales! It's very hard for me to accept that.
BUYERS PAY FOR MY PHOTOS BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT ONE FOR THEIR PROJECTS, BUT INSTEAD OF ME BEING REWARDED FOR MY GOOD JOB ON THAT IMAGE I TAKE A CUT BECAUSE OF FACTORS THAT DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT SALE!!! THIS IS AN INSULT!!!
Besides, we are going to be evaluated by performance when we do not have any control about the exposure of our images on 123rf which influence sales. This means that 123rf already has ways to reward their most prolific and successful contributors by using their images in promotional mails with links to their portfolios, giving them a boost in the search results, etc.
There's no need to punish contributors in the commission when his sale is equal to any other sale. That particular image was considered the best by the buyer! It doesn't matter that the photographer sells 10 or 100.000 images per month.
This is just another excuse to rip-off contributors.
IS and FL are suffering from their greed. Considering the size of 123rf you won't be suffering for long as it's an almost irrelevant agency. With this move you may be signing your death sentence. At least from me you wont be getting any more new images, and in 2013 I may delete my portfolio.
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123rf is around %2-3 of my microstock earning. i just did my math work and if earn my BME all year i will just catch %50.
So there is 10 month to decide what to do.
its not good behavior to run behind of Big Brother while you are so small:(
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Yep, here's yet another "fair" site that so many people flocked to and supported when the other evil sites took advantage of them. Seeing a pattern here folks?
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Hello All,
You have 10.5 months to build up a solid portfolio. Why not look towards getting more than 50%, why set your sights so low?
Have faith in us and have faith in yourselves.
Our sales ARE growing, the question is, just how much we can grow in 10 months. We're adding video, another avenue for you to get even more credits download. More product lines are sure to follow.
We are not setting low targets for sales, we want to be able to make more than enough for everyone to share.
Price changes are very sensitive, we cannot just raise prices willy nilly. But we will take things under advisement and we'll improve from day to day.
Thank you very much,
Alex.
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Just saw an markable increase of income at 123 in 2011, what supported me in my decision to gave them a chance.
Now it looks like a flash in the pan.
As some others wrote befor, i see 123 fall back into meaninglessness. What a pity!
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You have 10.5 months to build up a solid portfolio. Why not look towards getting more than 50%, why set your sights so low?
Have faith in us and have faith in yourselves.
Lets make it 50% at bottom and up to 70% for solid portfolios. That would be real growth. That would really motivate contributors to upload new content to 123RF.
Certainty that next year will be better is a good motivation. Fear of a drop in royalties is NOT.
This announcement is a STOP in contributor's continued support and loyalty.
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Hello All,
You have 10.5 months to build up a solid portfolio. Why not look towards getting more than 50%, why set your sights so low?
Have faith in us and have faith in yourselves.
Our sales ARE growing, the question is, just how much we can grow in 10 months. We're adding video, another avenue for you to get even more credits download. More product lines are sure to follow.
We are not setting low targets for sales, we want to be able to make more than enough for everyone to share.
Price changes are very sensitive, we cannot just raise prices willy nilly. But we will take things under advisement and we'll improve from day to day.
Thank you very much,
Alex.
I can't see more than a handfull of contributors increasing from 50%
I can't imagine that I could build my 123rf portfolio to get above 5,000 RC.
123rf makes 5% of my income per month.
If I built my portfolio up to earn 5,000 RC on 123rf ie Approx $2,500 in my pocket from 123rf.
I would be earning 100/5*$2,500 = $50,000 per year on microstock.
60% = 1 million RC's is that really a realistic goal ? or some unicorn you've got tied up in the back paddock.
Who is earning half a million dollars on 123rf alone at the moment ?
Sub values are way too low.
Do we have to go through the same old process
1)Agency announce something really terrible
2) Everybody complains
3) agency improves the deal slightly
4) everybody goes wooyay thanks for listening
The only fair thing is that you've given everybody lots of notice before the change.
edited I made a mistake and thought it was 50,000 RC for 50%
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This suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckkksss
we contributors should boycott the greedy agencies, if not,m we will do with us what they want!!
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Hello All,
You have 10.5 months to build up a solid portfolio. Why not look towards getting more than 50%, why set your sights so low?
Have faith in us and have faith in yourselves.
Our sales ARE growing, the question is, just how much we can grow in 10 months. We're adding video, another avenue for you to get even more credits download. More product lines are sure to follow.
We are not setting low targets for sales, we want to be able to make more than enough for everyone to share.
Price changes are very sensitive, we cannot just raise prices willy nilly. But we will take things under advisement and we'll improve from day to day.
Thank you very much,
Alex.
Sorry but I don buy that motivational talk.
To reduce commissions on sales is an insult.
What if a contributor has a niche segment? One that doesn't sell hundreds of images per-month but he is the only one supplying that type of imagery? Should he be punished when he's the only one giving you those images, and making buyers come back for more?
As a random example imagine someone supplying fighter jet engines being repaired in USAAF facilities? Should he be punished because they don't sell like a fake smile on a phone even if no one has similar photos to his?
When an image of mine sells it means it is as good as any other on your agency, and for the buyer, better than all the rest. This applies to every sale made, without difference if it's a sale from a newly accepted member or your top seller.
There is absolutely no reason to be paid differently.
If you want to distinguish members considering productivity, production value, number of sales, etc., just give them a search result boost based on popularity of the files of the certain contributor that has an above average of sales per image online.
Create lightboxes to promote themes with images of those members, etc., etc., etc.
Besides, if a member has more images than others that don't sell don't blame the photographer. Blame your reviewing team for accepting non-selling photos, or the ones creating the standards that your reviewers use.
This is another excuse to grab more money from the contributors. I bet that in your calculations you will not end up losing money, by the contrary. That's how "fair" you want to to play. That motivational talk is just a way to throw sand into our eyes.
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Very disappointed here. I was so encouraged by the previous announcement, and was among the first to cheer when 123rf entered 'top four' territory in the poll on the right.
The previous announcement may have been a bit short-notice for some newbies who hadn't yet built up their ports, but other than that it seemed perfectly fair to me, and it was nice to sense that long-standing goodwill and support for an agency was being reciprocated. This new announcement has certainly stopped me cheering.
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Why not look towards getting more than 50%, why set your sights so low?
Have faith in us and have faith in yourselves.
Our sales ARE growing, the question is, just how much we can grow in 10 months.
Ok, let's make a deal: If you (remember, the sales part is your job) can make my sales grow enough until end of the year that I will be paid 50% or more under the new structure, then I'll fully support this change. If not, just continue to pay me the 50% I signed up for.
Deal?
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Shutterstock loves this.
LOL, great comment :D
on topic, only because of 123rf approval rate I will continue to submit till the end of the year.
after that I'll see how things works.
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You have 10.5 months to build up a solid portfolio. Why not look towards getting more than 50%, why set your sights so low?
Have faith in us and have faith in yourselves.
Lets make it 50% at bottom and up to 70% for solid portfolios. That would be real growth. That would really motivate contributors to upload new content to 123RF.
Certainty that next year will be better is a good motivation. Fear of a drop in royalties is NOT.
This announcement is a STOP in contributor's continued support and loyalty.
++ Why every effort by agency regarding THEIR growth goes against the contributors ? What do they do for contributors other than cutting their royalty ! It seems that they are just underestimating contributors.
Shutterstock loves this.
Definitely such steps by growing big agencies will do nothing but add up shutterstock's monopoly.
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At least it's one rule for all and no automatic discrimination.
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At least it's one rule for all and no automatic discrimination.
We are still at the beginning. Don't give them ideas...
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I hate to say it, but if I were running 123RF, I'd probably do the same thing.
Contributors stand in line to supply new sites like Photodune, happily accepting less than 123RF is paying.
WE'RE the ones putting downward pressure on prices and commissions. WE make it possible for start-ups to enter the market and undercut the established players.
FT, IS and now 123RF responded to this cut-throat competition that we helped create in the only manner they could.
If you were running a business and your suppliers did this to you, happily filling the shelves of your new competitor with the same products for a lower cost, you would take action.
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I'm so disappointed, 123rf was the last agency I trusted and now they join the IS-FT greedy team. So disappointed....
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Stockmarketer, the paradox here is that the ones that are really everywhere and feeding lowest price agencies are the ones with the biggest portfolios and the ones that will benefit more from this RC system.
The result is that 123RF gives an increase to the big portfolios that are helping the most competing agencies. And cuts the small ones that may o may not be contributing to this race and wanted only to upload to fair agencies.
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Well I've been very careful to keep my loyalties with agencies I felt I could trust, and haven't gone scattering my wares too far.
All this move does is make me wonder why I bothered to be so careful. I doubt very much that I'll care so much in future. I don't feel I'm being rewarded for any of the loyalty I've shown, so what's the point in continuing this way? I seem to be shooting myself in the foot, and might as well be spewing my work out to all and sundry.
Lesson learned in triplicate.
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WE'RE the ones putting downward pressure on prices and commissions. WE make it possible for start-ups to enter the market and undercut the established players.
FT, IS and now 123RF responded to this cut-throat competition that we helped create in the only manner they could.
It's probably not just the competition that motivated them, but also the fact that we showed them time and again, that we are going to accept the reduction - after some bitching, of course ;) It's not only that nations don't have friends but only interests, but agencies, too, it seems.
On the positive side: They announce this almost a year in advance and they promise to keep the levels stable for the next three years. My earnings at 123RF in 2011 have almost tripled compared to 2010, they were constantly my number 2 or 3 earner, depending on DT's or FT's performance in any given month. If they keep this rate up I just might catch the 50% percent level in the new scheme, if not I'll be down to 40 or 45%.
The result is that 123RF gives an increase to the big portfolios that are helping the most competing agencies. And cuts the small ones that may o may not be contributing to this race and wanted only to upload to fair agencies.
They reward - or at least try not to p$ss off - those who generate the majority of sales. I don't know your portfolio, but they most certainly won't notice the absence of mine, but they just might feel it if Yuri should decide to blacklist them...
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very disappointed here too.. cannot understand really.. I believe I can be at the 50% if things continue to pick up but this is not a great move from 123RF, never saw you guys as a greedy company.. for me you were always the ONLY fair agency that was really worth my continuous upload and work.. please reconsider
what made you do this if you are growing like you have said? dont say to us its unsustainable..
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Stockmarketer, the paradox here is that the ones that are really everywhere and feeding lowest price agencies are the ones with the biggest portfolios and the ones that will benefit more from this RC system.
The result is that 123RF gives an increase to the big portfolios that are helping the most competing agencies. And cuts the small ones that may o may not be contributing to this race and wanted only to upload to fair agencies.
Great point. It's just too funny isn't it, when looking at it like that. The term shooting oneself in the foot comes to mind with this.
@Ploink The big contributors pretty much don't ever leave sites. They would stay with or without any bonuses, or with or without any cuts.
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First, they removed the forum, then they introduced the annoying captcha, then the commission cut for those with portfolio smaller than 150 images, now this...
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I have a small and good working Vector-portfolio.
Slowly and steadily growing at a good quality-level, but not a mass of pictures.
Only 2-3% of my income comes from 123rf.
RPD was only something about 1$...
I think for me this change will be a 20% commission-cut in 2013.
So 123rf was not very interesting for me and in future it will become more uninteresting for me.
Comission-Cut is the wrong direction!
I don't respect agencies who go this way.
Cause these agencies don't respect me and my work!
They only want more money from my work like istock and fotolia...
So, for this year I will also sell my work at 123rf.
But I will not concentrate my work on agencies who cut my comissions.
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Stockmarketer, the paradox here is that the ones that are really everywhere and feeding lowest price agencies are the ones with the biggest portfolios and the ones that will benefit more from this RC system.
Duh. People who are REALLY good at microstock are the contributors that agencies REALLY want. If you were starting a new agency, or managing an established agency, you would want to make sure you attract and retain as much of the heavy hitters as possible. Do you blame them?
The result is that 123RF gives an increase to the big portfolios that are helping the most competing agencies. And cuts the small ones that may o may not be contributing to this race and wanted only to upload to fair agencies.
"Want only to upload to fair agencies?" The way I see it, the bulk of microstock artists will jump on board any new player in the market in the desperate hope of increasing their overall income, no matter what the commissions and image prices are. Yesterday people were falling over themselves to get into Lori.ru without even knowing what the commission structure was.
Every agency knows it needs two things:
1. Bulk - a high number of images for good selection and bragging rights. It's easy to get this... just open your doors and every wannabe microstocker will flood you with his/her stuff, no matter how low your rates are.
2. High sellers - the images that buyers actually want. It's trickier to get this... you have to make sure you have a tiered system that rewards the Yuris (the world's top 100 or so microstock artists), since these folks will deliver most of your revenue.
The recent moves of IS, FT and now 123 shows that they understand this is the formula they need to be competitive.
(And you can try to debate this by saying IS and FT are going down the tubes because YOUR earnings are down there... but some of the top sellers on these agencies have been reporting INCREASING earnings, so the truth may be that these agencies' recent changes have been positive for them.)
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Yesterday people were falling over themselves to get into Lori.ru without even knowing what the commission structure was.
yesterday like yesterday? or time ago? I believe you should read the all topic not only short versions of it, I know you are a top contributor but please respect other, not every person here is dumb, of course we look into royalties, prices, collection, etc etc.. we all know that unless we aren´t serious about what we are doing, no matter the business we deal with
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...You have 10.5 months to build up a solid portfolio. Why not look towards getting more than 50%, why set your sights so low?
Have faith in us and have faith in yourselves....
For heavens sake, spare me the "work harder" blather. I do intend to work hard, but why on earth would I do that on behalf of an agency that's just said it plans to take more of what I earn? No one is setting sights low, and we do have faith in ourselves, thank you very much.
I no longer have any faith - none - in 123rf, however, and if you somehow think that an announcement like this will increase contributors' faith in you as an agency, you're delusional.
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"Want only to upload to fair agencies?" The way I see it, the bulk of microstock artists will jump on board any new player in the market in the desperate hope of increasing their overall income, no matter what the commissions and image prices are. Yesterday people were falling over themselves to get into Lori.ru without even knowing what the commission structure was.
name me ONE agency BESIDE photodune what we shoudn´t have joined in order to have FAIR royalties at DT, IS, FT and now 123RF
you can give me 10 BUT they aren´t significant, they don´t sell like the top5, please explain me what AGENCIES you are talking about
p.s: not to mention that PD is live for a few months, IS screwed us long time ago...
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Thank you sir, may I have another? Pfft. (sarcastic movie quote)
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Hello All,
You have 10.5 months to build up a solid portfolio. Why not look towards getting more than 50%, why set your sights so low?
Alex,
Do you realize how offensive this is? Do you and your management understand what a slap in the face you've given your long term suppliers?
I have been submitting work to your agency for seven years. After all that time and all my work, we generate a little over half the sales required to keep my royalty at current rates. Do you really believe I can double the productivity of my portfolio in a mere 10 1/2 months when it took me seven years to get this far?
Heck, why can't your people produce even half of what Shutterstock generates for me with the same content? That would only require you to double the sales on my port, about what you seem to expect of me? Which of us is more at fault that I don't meet your expectations? We certainly know which of us will suffer if I don't.
Whether or not you need to cut royalties to continue in business, I believe you've drawn the lines in the wrong place. Telling me to work harder is adding insult to fiscal injury. I am most definitely not happy.
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...if our wife/husband cheats: We get a divorce, if we don't like the % in our credit cards: We cut them up and close our account, If you don't like our job: You quit...So what's stopping us from taking a firm stand on this one? We all complained when IS and FT screwed us, but never the less that's all we all did, deleting ports and stop uploading after the fact did very little to alter their decision, so why stand for another grease up, now from 123rf...let say, which is most likely the truth, we cant afford to delete our existing port with them because of our financial situations, but we should all stand together and stop all uploading of new material to them, if we all small fish as well as some of the more larger ones grow some B..ls! and do this I'm pretty sure the bird will sing a different tune...if we don't do anything about it, every Dick, John and Harry agencies will be following in their steps. Whatever we need to do, we need to start doing it NOW!, not waiting until January 1 2013 to make our self's be heard.
If we don't, well, then we deserved everything we have gotten and will get in the near future from all stock agencies. >:( >:( >:(
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123RF won't come out and say this, but their restructuring sends a clear message:
They want MORE pictures from contributors who will earn at least 5,000 "credits" this year. If you're in this camp, you have the incentive to keep uploading to 123RF.
They want FEWER pictures from contributors who will earn fewer than 5,000 "credits" this year. If you're in this camp, you've been discouraged from uploading. (Even Alex must know that the "work harder" message is unrealistic for most in this group.)
The thing 123RF will lose are the niche contributors who specialize in under-covered topics that are nonetheless needed by a minority of buyers.
But what 123RF will gain is a mix of pictures that tilts more toward the highly marketable side. If buyers have a better experience at 123RF because the perception is that more of its images are winners, then that could give it a competitive boost.
Will the strategy work? Time will tell, but as a business person, you have to see there is logic in it.
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We're adding video, another avenue for you to get even more credits download.
So credits will be combined for different media types?
What does this mean for those who, like myself, contribute only video? You had said we would be getting 50% commission. Now it seems like it could be as low as 30%. I certainly hope that is not the case, and you will continue to pay the 50% commission rate you promised for video sales at least for a few years while you build up sales.
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Not sure I'm entirely doing the math right here, but based on recent months earnings and projecting for the rest of this year, I will likely drop to either 40% or 45%. Thanks, 123RF.
Guess what Alex, if you guys are having trouble getting profits up, it has nothing to do with us. Your suggestion to just work harder and build up a better portfolio is offensive at best, downright ignorant at worst. There is nothing wrong with my workflow, my style of images, and certainly not my productivity as evidenced by steady growth at most agencies and huge growth at SS and a few others. For lack of a better phrase, "it's not me, it's you."
I won't leave 123RF because of a 45% rate. I won't even leave because of the meager earnings you guys manage to generate with my work (you're near the bottom of the list every month out of the 20 agencies I work with). But I can easily justify a loss of just 1% of my monthly microstock earnings and cut you guys loose based on that slap-in-the-face response, and that I need to "build up a solid portfolio."
Unbelievable. Thanks for getting me all pissed off on what was an otherwise nice Wednesday morning.
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Price changes are very sensitive, we cannot just raise prices willy nilly. But we will take things under advisement and we'll improve from day to day.
Alex,
Why are you setting your sites so low? You've got 10.5 months to work hard and build up a reputation amongst buyers that can separate you from the rest and justify a "Willy Nilly" price increase. Have faith in yourself. Heck, you will even have video to offer!
Mat
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Dear 123, on behalf of all microstock photographers - you are very welcome.
You were nothing when we met. I take pride in the fact that I made you who you are today. I told all my friends about you and they grew to love and trust you, and now I look like a fool. Because of my faith in you, you earned a share of the market that grows day by day while notable competitors exhibit signs of self-destruction. We did this together -- you and me. I invested a significant amount of money into my tools to supply you with a pefect collection that you boast as your own.
Today I am hurt and confused. What have I done wrong? Why don't you love me any more? Has success made you arrogant and caused us to drift apart? Do you need a salary raise at my expense? Do you need a new boat? Tell me what is going on, we are partners. I made a committment to you. What exactly do you intend to do with MORE. You haven't explained.
It would hurt to part ways, but face it - I don't need you to survive.
Can you survive without me?
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Will the strategy work? Time will tell, but as a business person, you have to see there is logic in it.
seriously.. why haven´t you answered to my "questions".. why it is FAIR what 123RF is doing? name me the agencies to blame
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Will the strategy work? Time will tell, but as a business person, you have to see there is logic in it.
seriously.. why haven´t you answered to my "questions".. why it is FAIR what 123RF is doing? name me the agencies to blame
Edited. No point.
This answer is better: http://kotaku.com/358523/someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet (http://kotaku.com/358523/someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet)
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Will the strategy work? Time will tell, but as a business person, you have to see there is logic in it.
seriously.. why haven´t you answered to my "questions".. why it is FAIR what 123RF is doing? name me the agencies to blame
Edited. No point.
This answer is better: [url]http://kotaku.com/358523/someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet[/url] ([url]http://kotaku.com/358523/someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet[/url])
dude you are a BLAST! you entered this topic saying the blame is joining small agencies, this and that.. now you step out :D
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Well said, Pixart! Bravo!
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Hi everyone,
The new commission structure is up. You can read it as you log into 123RF and the structure is right below the captcha entry.
I thank you for your patience and for those who have afforded us some amount of faith - I personally thank you very much. I am open to all questions and I promise to answer each and every one. As usual we'll be upfront about things.
All I can say is, allow our track record to speak for itself. We came from humble beginnings have outlasted quite a few agencies and we aren't stopping our growth. I do apologize for dismal review times, I acknowledge we're a bit slow but we're hammering out the videos platform this month, our attention is focused there somewhat.
We are making quite a number of changes most importantly - we've been given the go ahead to expand the operations department threefold. I believe in about 2 months time, long review times will be a thing of the past.
I welcome your questions.... As usual :)
Alex.
To recap you will be expanding your operations department threefold "At Our Expense"! Soon we will be seeing job postings bragging about stellar company benefit packages while we suffer the consequences.
I do not know about the rest of this bunch but I am sick to the bones at seeing others benefit at my expense. http://www.microstockgroup.com/shutterstock-com/day-in-the-life-jon-oringer-wsj-slideshow/ (http://www.microstockgroup.com/shutterstock-com/day-in-the-life-jon-oringer-wsj-slideshow/)
Our costs continue to rise, the companies are doing well, they are hiring and yet our standard of living continues to deteriorate.
Pathetic and dispicable!
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To recap you will be expanding your operations department threefold "At Our Expense"! Soon we will be seeing job postings bragging about stellar company benefit packages while we suffer the consequences.
I do not know about the rest of this bunch but I am sick to the bones at seeing others benefit at my expense. [url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/shutterstock-com/day-in-the-life-jon-oringer-wsj-slideshow/[/url] ([url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/shutterstock-com/day-in-the-life-jon-oringer-wsj-slideshow/[/url])
Our costs continue to rise, the companies are doing well, they are hiring and yet our standard of living continues to deteriorate.
Pathetic and dispicable!
So it has finally happened. The "Occupy Wall Street" mentality has officially set up camp outside the walls of "Big Microstock."
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To recap you will be expanding your operations department threefold "At Our Expense"! Soon we will be seeing job postings bragging about stellar company benefit packages while we suffer the consequences.
I do not know about the rest of this bunch but I am sick to the bones at seeing others benefit at my expense. [url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/shutterstock-com/day-in-the-life-jon-oringer-wsj-slideshow/[/url] ([url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/shutterstock-com/day-in-the-life-jon-oringer-wsj-slideshow/[/url])
Our costs continue to rise, the companies are doing well, they are hiring and yet our standard of living continues to deteriorate.
Pathetic and dispicable!
So it has finally happened. The "Occupy Wall Street" mentality has officially set up camp outside the walls of "Big Microstock."
why are you so happy about your 2% increase? LOL
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@stockmarketer: Not sure how you get any parallel between the Occupy movement and complaints about agencies changing the split between contributors and agency.
We create what the agencies sell. They don't direct, fund, own (and sometimes barely market) our product. Complaints about predatory moves by agencies are more like the sports lockouts, SAG and writer's guild actions or any actor's or writer's complaint about their agent. The agencies wouldn't exist without us, but we need them for the storefront for our work. There's no "down with the rich" stuff in our complaints, but there is anger (justified IMO) in these unilateral, non-negotiated changes in terms which - no surprise - solely benefit the agency and not contributors.
Adding more reviewers isn't going to sell more product. 123rf would have to be pouring that money into doubling the sales volume before I'd be interested in talking about handing over more money to them.
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@stockmarketer: Not sure how you get any parallel between the Occupy movement and complaints about agencies changing the split between contributors and agency.
We create what the agencies sell. They don't direct, fund, own (and sometimes barely market) our product. Complaints about predatory moves by agencies are more like the sports lockouts, SAG and writer's guild actions or any actor's or writer's complaint about their agent. The agencies wouldn't exist without us, but we need them for the storefront for our work. There's no "down with the rich" stuff in our complaints, but there is anger (justified IMO) in these unilateral, non-negotiated changes in terms which - no surprise - solely benefit the agency and not contributors.
Adding more reviewers isn't going to sell more product. 123rf would have to be pouring that money into doubling the sales volume before I'd be interested in talking about handing over more money to them.
I agree with the above!
stockmarketer name one business that is happy with stagnant or worse yet decreases in royalty rates while their own costs of doing business rises across the board!
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Unlike, apparently, most others in this thread, I am having trouble determining where I would fall in the hierarchy. And to be honest, not sure how much time I should devote to figuring it out.
What I do know is that the very notion of RC credits makes me want to vomit. You guys at 123RF have picked the WRONG example to emulate. Hope you figure that out before 2013.
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Today I am hurt and confused. What have I done wrong? Why don't you love me any more?
You haven't done anything wrong. But you have confused a personal relationship (love and trust) with a business relationship (financials and leverage).
Whenever a business has leverage over something (employees, distributors, etc) it will almost always take advantage of the leverage to optimize its financials.
I'm going to repeat this again and I hope someone is paying attention. Bookmark this. You are all slowly being herded herding yourselves toward Shutterstock with your "support the fair" mentality. When you all end up in the SS corral, they will have the absolute maximum leverage to make changes that inflict massive damage to contributors. I'm not saying they will. I would like to hope that they won't but history suggests otherwise.
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I'm going to repeat this again and I hope someone is paying attention. Bookmark this. You are all slowly being herded herding yourselves toward Shutterstock with your "support the fair" mentality. When you all end up in the SS corral, they will have the absolute maximum leverage to make changes that inflict massive damage to contributors. I'm not saying they will. I would like to hope that they won't but history suggests otherwise.
Mooo!!!!
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Okay, just did the math. Based on 2011 numbers, I am in the 50% category, but the low end. No chance of getting higher up, but a real chance of slipping down. Just like Istock, I am hanging on to the rate I have earned, but just barely, and for how long?
Paulie, I definitely get what you are saying, but do you really think Istock exclusivity offers any better protection?
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Today I am hurt and confused. What have I done wrong? Why don't you love me any more?
You haven't done anything wrong. But you have confused a personal relationship (love and trust) with a business relationship (financials and leverage).
Whenever a business has leverage over something (employees, distributors, etc) it will almost always take advantage of the leverage to optimize its financials.
I'm going to repeat this again and I hope someone is paying attention. Bookmark this. You are all slowly being herded herding yourselves toward Shutterstock with your "support the fair" mentality. When you all end up in the SS corral, they will have the absolute maximum leverage to make changes that inflict massive damage to contributors. I'm not saying they will. I would like to hope that they won't but history suggests otherwise.
I think SS is already making those changes, we are just too trusting to notice!
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Okay, just did the math. Based on 2011 numbers, I am in the 50% category, but the low end. No chance of getting higher up, but a real chance of slipping down. Just like Istock, I am hanging on to the rate I have earned, but just barely, and for how long?
Paulie, I definitely get what you are saying, but do you really think Istock exclusivity offers any better protection?
I realize I may be perceived as biased (one of the "bitter ex girlfriends" as an exclusive with a tart tongue described us), but entering iStock exclusivity at the moment is career suicide.
Staying exclusive is a different issue, and for a newbie with nothing much to lose, I wouldn't advise exclusivity, but I don't think it matters much one way or the other.
Lisa, I will personally come and tear apart your fence (I hear Florida weather's nice this time of year) if you even give a nanosecond's thought to exclusivity at this point!
I do realize that having any agency become more powerful doesn't help contributors much in the long run if that agency uses the power in an anti-contributor fashion. However, at the moment we have to play the hand we have, not the one we think we should have in a fair and just universe.
It's sort of an aside, but there's some very interesting reading in a boycott of a large and apparently greedy journal publisher, Elsevier, by the academics who volunteer as editors for the journals. See the blog that started it (http://gowers.wordpress.com/2012/01/21/elsevier-my-part-in-its-downfall/) all, a NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/14/science/researchers-boycott-elsevier-journal-publisher.html?_r=1&ref=science) about it yesterday and other coverage here (http://today.duke.edu/2012/02/elsevierboycott) and here (http://www.nature.com/news/elsevier-boycott-gathers-pace-1.10010).
The situations aren't directly comparable, but this does talk about the possibility of opening up new avenues to disseminate journals - especially as almost all the work is done by people other than the journal publishers and distribution in print is no longer as important as it was - more than changing the behavior of the existing publisher. I think my point is that sometimes things can change - just as iStock changed things way back when it started and before it became assimilated into the Borg :)
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Okay, just did the math. Based on 2011 numbers, I am in the 50% category, but the low end. No chance of getting higher up, but a real chance of slipping down. Just like Istock, I am hanging on to the rate I have earned, but just barely, and for how long?
Paulie, I definitely get what you are saying, but do you really think Istock exclusivity offers any better protection?
Did I miss something? Aren't most of us grandfathered into 50% (for now)?
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Well it seems like the old saying stays true, if you want loyalty get a dog. Have been rooting for you all the way up to now - getting the dog tomorrow. >:(
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Did I miss something? Aren't most of us grandfathered into 50% (for now)?
Yes you missed something.
No we're not (any more).
If you refer back to messages #159 and #160 in this thread, you'll see the grim news.
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Did I miss something? Aren't most of us grandfathered into 50% (for now)?
Yes, you did miss something. It's based on royalty credits (man I loathe that phrase) in 2013. Yes, I know - after the end of the world in December and all that so what am I getting excited about?
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Whenever a business has leverage over something (employees, distributors, etc) it will almost always take advantage of the leverage to optimize its financials.
The HUGE, glaring difference between this move by 123rf and other sites that have made similar moves is that 123rf doesn't have the leverage you have referred to Paulie.
I know I've only got around 1,000 images in my port there so I'm not one of their big shooters by any stretch of the imagination but still at 1,000 pics I have yet to earn even $40 in a month. Based on all the love and hype for 123rf seen in so many threads here, my expectations were far higher. As a result, if asked what I think about 123rf my answer would be "I don't."
The drop in commission equates to very few real dollars for me at this point. The devaluation of my images by offering them so cheap could be far more costly.
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Agencies seem to have only three goals as it comes to contributors these days:
-Keep back new contributors from joining
-Discourage contributors who want to learn, work hard and steadily build up a good portfolio
-Drive away experienced and high selling contributors to the macros and to search other and new ways to sell their work
Well, I suppose they can spill their lifeblood as they wish…at least for the time being.
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At my current sell through rate I'll need at least 2500 images to keep my current royalty percentage. It took me three years to get 1250 images approved and will probably take me another three years to get the second half (I do have a day job). 123 should honor their previous statements and grandfather the royalty rate for established contributors who's work helped their site grow and survive.
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Yes you missed something.
No we're not (any more).
If you refer back to messages #159 and #160 in this thread, you'll see the grim news.
Ah... I see. Well, that's kind of %#$@! That will teach me not to sleep with one eye open.
I still might not lose anything, but 123RF is kind of too small of a player to be pulling this. I guess I have a while to think about it (unless it changes again). A lot can happen in a year.
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You have 10.5 months to build up a solid portfolio. Why not look towards getting more than 50%, why set your sights so low?...
I hate to keep harping on this statement, but man I just can't get past it.
It's funny, after thinking about this earlier today, I remembered some trouble I had with 123RF a few years back. I couldn't get vector uploads to work, and Alex told me that there was probably something wrong with my files. At the time I submitted images to around a dozen agencies, and never had any problems with uploads anywhere else. So needless-to-say I was skeptical that the issue was my fault.
Of course eventually things were fixed and without changing anything, my images uploads began to work again. But throughout the ordeal, 123RF was insistent that I was causing the problem, not them.
Fast-forward to today, when it's a similar song they're singing. If I can't hit enough RCs to maintain my percentage, it's my fault. Come 2013, it'll be because I didn't work hard enough that I wasn't able to hit that 50% goal. It's not their fault. Obviously I'm doing something wrong.
::)
Don't go down the same road as istock, Alex. They cut rates while throwing around insulting comments (something about money not being what would make us happy) and it left contributors like me unwilling to continue sending work to them. I already don't make much money with you guys (no fault of mine, I can assure you) and the incentives to keep uploading at 123RF are already minimal. You can easily persuade me cut 123RF out of my workflow with pay cuts and the kind of comments you made above.
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Lisa, I will personally come and tear apart your fence (I hear Florida weather's nice this time of year) if you even give a nanosecond's thought to exclusivity at this point!
Oh God no. Perish the thought!! We had a bonfire and used that fence for kindling ;).
No, I was just wondering where Pauly was going with his argument.
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Shutterstock loves this.
So does IS.
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Okay, just did the math. Based on 2011 numbers, I am in the 50% category, but the low end. No chance of getting higher up, but a real chance of slipping down. Just like Istock, I am hanging on to the rate I have earned, but just barely, and for how long?
Paulie, I definitely get what you are saying, but do you really think Istock exclusivity offers any better protection?
Lisa, how did you do the math? I'm having trouble adding up credits and stuff, which one is how much and everything. Also, how do the subs count, 1 credit each?
I just love how 123rf is completely unable to fix their website, but is keen to sack us while feeding us the same istock rubbish "lets work harder". Unbelievable.
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Okay, just did the math. Based on 2011 numbers, I am in the 50% category, but the low end. No chance of getting higher up, but a real chance of slipping down. Just like Istock, I am hanging on to the rate I have earned, but just barely, and for how long?
Paulie, I definitely get what you are saying, but do you really think Istock exclusivity offers any better protection?
Lisa, how did you do the math? I'm having trouble adding up credits and stuff, which one is how much and everything. Also, how do the subs count, 1 credit each?
I just love how 123rf is completely unable to fix their website, but is keen to sack us while feeding us the same istock rubbish "lets work harder". Unbelievable.
I agree, especially with Joanne. I think we all work hard to create sellable content, I know I do. It sounds like Alex was given a script from the IS brain trust. Now, to be fair to our communicator, is Alex the mail man or the guy at the top making/dictating these commission cuts? Is this an issue of padding profits (because they can't control their expenses) so they look better for acquisition in three years? Only 3% of my income comes from 123 and I have never grown with them in 5 years. Always been $60 a month. No way that I, as a dedicated contributor of 123, will accomplish anything but a pay decrease after this change takes affect.
They know, like IS, that most won't pull their port, will keep uploading with the blind hopes of "something will change", and attrition will simply be minimal. They win.
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Who looks at a sinking ship and thinks "that looks like a great idea, I'll hit an iceberg too"!? Can't believe 123RF have followed iStock's most hated thing - RC system.
Surely this is no time to be putting yourself into the same territory as iStock. REWARD your contributors please, don't make them turn on you.
This could be the biggest mistake 123rf will ever make.
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Ups... Not big jump. From 50 to 30% :(
Thank you very much.
Pav
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Ok, I got the math. I am barely getting 50% and absolutely no chance of going up. I will be pulling my portfolio if I have the slightest decrease below 50%, I'm dead serious. 123RF are clearly overestimating their importance in our eyes. It won't make a significant dent in my monthly income and I'm sure it's the same situation for most of the contributors.
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Lisa, how did you do the math? I'm having trouble adding up credits and stuff, which one is how much and everything. Also, how do the subs count, 1 credit each?
It was rather time consuming. I took a screen shot of my sales from all the months of 2011. Then I added up the number of sales of each type (which are shown in columns on the site). Then I multiplied each column total by the assigned value for that type of sale, using message on the sign-in page. Then totaled all those.
I am sure that the spreadsheet gurus here have much easier ways to do this.
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Unless I missed a post, I haven't seen one complaint about the fact that your percentage is re-evaluated every month. No one has a problem with that? Seems like those on the border of a commission change could bounce up and down monthly. (Even those who aren't that close could bounce down for a month if they had one poor month 12 months ago.)
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We all complained when IS and FT screwed us, but never the less that's all we all did, deleting ports and stop uploading after the fact did very little to alter their decision, so why stand for another grease up, now from 123rf...let say, which is most likely the truth, we cant afford to delete our existing port with them because of our financial situations, but we should
" all stand together and stop all uploading of new material to them ",
if we all small fish as well as some of the more larger ones grow some B..ls! and do this I'm pretty sure the bird will sing a different tune...if we don't do anything about it, every Dick, John and Harry agencies will be following in their steps. Whatever we need to do, we need to start doing it NOW!, not waiting until January 1 2013 to make our self's be heard.
If we don't, well, then we deserved everything we have gotten and will get in the near future from all stock agencies. >:( >:( >:(
123RF is kind of too small of a player to be pulling this.
I just love how 123rf is completely unable to fix their website, but is keen to sack us while feeding us the same istock rubbish "lets work harder". Unbelievable.
They know, like IS, that most won't pull their port, will keep uploading with the blind hopes of "something will change", and attrition will simply be minimal. They win.
123RF are clearly overestimating their importance in our eyes. It won't make a significant dent in my monthly income and I'm sure it's the same situation for most of the contributors.
+1
Actions speak louder than words
United we stand, divided we fall
If We do "NOT" do anything about it, What message are we sending to Shutterstock?
I'm a small fish, but I'll stop uploading of new material to 123rf or pull my port ( 1.5K images )
* I'll get 45%, possibly 50% if I work 2x harder? lol
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Step 1) Promise to grandfather contributors and get their hopes up.
Step 2) Introduce RC Scheme after people complain about the first iteration; maximize profit while revenues for contributors drop as time goes on due to competition, buyer migration and site growth.
At least they decided to copy a model that already existed so they are not in uncharted waters.
Step 3) Fire people that are on the non essential creative and review teams? Time will tell!
I find it hard to see any positives to contributors on this move.
I give 123rf props about rolling the news 10 months before the date instead of four, that makes it somewhat original.
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Unless I missed a post, I haven't seen one complaint about the fact that your percentage is re-evaluated every month. No one has a problem with that? Seems like those on the border of a commission change could bounce up and down monthly. (Even those who aren't that close could bounce down for a month if they had one poor month 12 months ago.)
I don't think anyone has commented on that aspect of it, but IMO that is probably a good thing - where "good" is relative in a scheme that is a steaming pile of poop.
It's good in that you don't have those messy margin situations (5 RCs shy of the next level sort of thing) affect your royalty for a whole year - there's at least the potential for it to be resolved sooner.
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Unless I missed a post, I haven't seen one complaint about the fact that your percentage is re-evaluated every month. No one has a problem with that? Seems like those on the border of a commission change could bounce up and down monthly. (Even those who aren't that close could bounce down for a month if they had one poor month 12 months ago.)
I don't think anyone has commented on that aspect of it, but IMO that is probably a good thing - where "good" is relative in a scheme that is a steaming pile of poop.
It's good in that you don't have those messy margin situations (5 RCs shy of the next level sort of thing) affect your royalty for a whole year - there's at least the potential for it to be resolved sooner.
Hmmm. As someone who experienced exactly that with iStock's system (200 RCs rather than 5), I'm surprised that didn't occur to me. Excellent point, Jo Ann.
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as always my paranoid post ... is it possible that alex is being paid to take the heat off istock? is there a deal in the works?
Just because I am paranoid doesn't mean there is no conspiracy. ;D
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as always my paranoid post ... is it possible that alex is being paid to take the heat off istock? is there a deal in the works?
Just because I am paranoid doesn't mean there is no conspiracy. ;D
Anything is possible in the World Wide Net of Stock Photography Warren...lol ;D
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Hi All,
Thanks for the comments and warnings, we will take everything into advisement. No I wasn't paid (not by the competition) or given a script, everything here reflects what my views are. Nobody likes change, and although it was truly hard to accept some of the criticism that were offered - Nonetheless, I can't thank you enough for your thoughts, opinions and ideas.
Do allow me to address some of the concerns that were brought up:
1. With regards to sales, we're looking to more than double the figure. 2011 was great for us, we're looking to make 2012 greater. Ultimately your sales as a whole will more than just improve. We are having month after month of improving sales, spurred on by the growth - We are spending more on advertising and promotions than ever before with more campaigns coming up soon, we're allocating a large proportion of sales revenue into various marketing channels and this is bearing fruit - I believe that most have enjoyed the increased sales throughout 2011. We're not slowing down on this.
2. On the operations side, we are hiring - hiring takes time, training takes even more time. We're looking to eliminate long queues and try to accept content in real time as we span the operations to work 24 hours from Monday to Friday.
3. We have plans to improve the contributors site but at the moment, improving features on the customer and sales functions, as well as rolling out new products take higher priority. We're hiring more IT personnel to cope with the expanded scope of responsibilities and hope to achieve a good balanced site.
Rome was not built in a day and I have to ask for your further understanding. We are achieving our milestones month on month, and I believe you too will enjoy higher sales volume in the days to come. I earnestly hope that you'll continue to be a contributor even after the implementation date. Only time will tell what decision you'll eventually make. But do factor in the growth if you're plugging the figures into your spreadsheet while determining your future levels.
Lastly, I do hope that everyone here enjoys the fruits of their labor earning more than 50% commissions from 123RF in 10 months time.
Thank you very much,
Alex.
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Alex,
I asked here, and someone else asked on the video forum: How does this impact video?
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Hi KB,
The prices of the video sales would be as follows:
1080 HD - 65 Credits
720 HD - 55 Credits
480 SD - 40 credits
240 WD - 15 credits
50% of nett credit prices now till Dec 31, 2012.
Thereafter, it'll be counted towards the 12 month rolling credit to determine your contributor level.
Thank you.
Alex
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I looked at the numbers a bit more, and unless 123RF can up there game a lot (come on 123RF, I know you can work harder at selling my images. You have 10.5 months to do it, so get working). I will be dropping 2 levels.
As I look at the numbers I think my effort would be better spent creating content for sites like Alamy that aren't trying to foster competition between contributors and dropping percentages.
If you really want me to make more than 50%, then make 0 to 1,000 RC = 50% and bring the levels up from there....
Not going to do that? then I guess you really don't want all your contributors to make a higher %.
Hopefully Pond5 lets us upload our images there directly too, so we can get the full 50%.
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Hi KB,
The prices of the video sales would be as follows:
1080 HD - 65 Credits
720 HD - 55 Credits
480 SD - 40 credits
240 WD - 15 credits
50% of nett credit prices now till Dec 31, 2012.
Thereafter, it'll be counted towards the 12 month rolling credit to determine your contributor level.
Thank you.
Alex
Thanks for the clarification, Alex. Considering I contribute videos only, and by Dec 31 I'll have at best 10 months of sales, you can include me in the list of very disappointed contributors.
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I checked my spam folders but don't see any e-mail from 123rf - did they only e-mail contributors who don't meet the criteria? It would seem to me that all contributors should know what's going on, not just those who are directly affected.
This is like those deals airlines did a while back where the pilots at the regional carriers got less than those at the main airline. Then they based the lower pay on which jets you flew and tried to move some of the "cheap pilot" jets into the main airline fleet. In other words I don't see this as good news even for old contributors like me who have large portfolios and enough sales.
Cutting royalties is not a good sign - and it's a shame as 123rf had been doing reasonably well.
Yeah thats why they have been doing well, just the start, you wait and see.
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Nobody likes change, and although it was truly hard to accept some of the criticism that were offered - Nonetheless, I can't thank you enough for your thoughts, opinions and ideas.
Alex, everybody loves good changes and hates bad changes.
1. With regards to sales, we're looking to more than double the figure. 2011 was great for us, we're looking to make 2012 greater. Ultimately your sales as a whole will more than just improve. We are having month after month of improving sales, spurred on by the growth - We are spending more on advertising and promotions than ever before with more campaigns coming up soon, we're allocating a large proportion of sales revenue into various marketing channels and this is bearing fruit - I believe that most have enjoyed the increased sales throughout 2011. We're not slowing down on this.
I sincerely hope this to be true, I've seen the improvements last months on 123RF and it really goes up and I'm really glad an agency that paid 50% is going that high. I just can't believe such a forecast. Lots of people will go down and many will just barely remain at 50%, after they helped you get this high. It's not fair. It's disloyal. It breaks all trust we had in you.
If you really believe you can double the sales for all, please prove that before implementing the RC system or lower the RC system if sales don't double.
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I think everyone knows where I stand on this sort of thing ;)
I will give 123RF kudos for keeping the 35% payout level reasonably attainable for many people. However on everything else, it sounds like they are following a certain someone's playbook to the letter; they will not budge on this issue.
If this plan is still in place at the end of the year I will be removing my portfolio completely. This one sided behavior from our agents cannot be rewarded. The fact that the RC concept has spread should be a big warning sign to all those who kept their portfolios with IS after their fiasco. Due to 123RF's lower contribution to our total incomes, the decision here should be relatively straightforward.
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1. With regards to sales, we're looking to more than double the figure. 2011 was great for us, we're looking to make 2012 greater. Ultimately your sales as a whole will more than just improve.
You HOPE that you will grow sales. But the only CERTAINTY is that our commission will drop and we will be paid less for each sale! It's a fact that you will take more of our money, being able or not to double your figures. And if you don't achieve that double? Are we to expect another commission cut? I'm certain by then you get another excuse to cut the commissions again. After all you're acquiring the taste for easy money instead of using competently the 50% you already take from us!
Plus, you haven't answered my question about why a sale from a big contributor is more valuable than a sale from a smaller one, when for the buyer each image is the best one for their project and don't care for the name of the photographer. And you even charge the same for each image!
Please explain to me why a niche contributor who has a unique collection, which doesn't sell thousands of photos per month but is the only one supplying that type of imagery, should accept the commission cut when it's you who are privileged to have those photos in the first place?!
I still need to be explained why a sale from a particular contributor, is less valuable than a sale from another one!
And please don't come with the excuse that some contributors produce more salable content. If you have non-salable content in your collection blame and punish yourself for having accepted it, don't punish the contributor for submitting it.
Lastly, I do hope that everyone here enjoys the fruits of their labor earning more than 50% commissions from 123RF in 10 months time.
Do you realize how insulting this statement is?! So, the ones not achieving that +50% are lazy? Do you have the notion that the most limiting factor for us to accumulate more credits and achieve the upper level is the pitiful performance 123rf has in the stock market, where is doesn't represent more than 2 to 3% of our total income?
The fact is that you don't have ANY acceptable answer to this move except pure greed.
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QUOTE: Lastly, I do hope that everyone here enjoys the fruits of their labor earning more than 50% commissions from 123RF in 10 months time.
(A dim and distant) hope is a jolly fine thing, given that we were led to expect a REAL 50% NOW!
Sigh..........
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fantastic. I think I'll be in the range of 40% (in fact, 20% less commissions). 123rf, thank you for supporting employees with more than 3 years with you in 2013. Thank you so!
The royalty structure is insane! And do not ask me to increase my portfolio more. Do I have to work harder to get a 45% very very very lucky? Do you going to change my plans for 2013? Thanks for planning my life, but do not need it.
I am designer, work with some 20 associations and all I have recommended 123rf. But no, that's it!
The problem is that I think its chaotic political communication has been good for them. With the fear of charging less, in recent months many have come to 123rf contributors, and many have increased their portfolio: the result is long waits under review. This increase may compensate for possible escapes by lower royalties for 2013.
The lies and confusion, great strategies for business.
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Hi All,
Thanks for the comments and warnings, we will take everything into advisement.
Strange, but the rest of your post doesn't sound like that. You don't respond to any of the real issues at hand.
1. With regards to sales, we're looking to more than double the figure. 2011 was great for us, we're looking to make 2012 greater. Ultimately your sales as a whole will more than just improve. We are having month after month of improving sales, spurred on by the growth - We are spending more on advertising and promotions than ever before with more campaigns coming up soon, we're allocating a large proportion of sales revenue into various marketing channels and this is bearing fruit - I believe that most have enjoyed the increased sales throughout 2011. We're not slowing down on this.
Great outlook. And that seems possible with a flat 50% commission. No need for any cuts then, right?
Rome was not built in a day and I have to ask for your further understanding. We are achieving our milestones month on month, and I believe you too will enjoy higher sales volume in the days to come. I earnestly hope that you'll continue to be a contributor even after the implementation date. Only time will tell what decision you'll eventually make. But do factor in the growth if you're plugging the figures into your spreadsheet while determining your future levels.
As I said before in this thread: If you believe that you can increase sales volumes that's great. If you can increase my sales volumes to the amount that I will keep getting a 50% commission from you, that would be wonderful (because that would be a very big increase in sales for me). If not, and if you tell me that I should be getting less than 50% because you cannot sell enough of my images, then it's not going to hurt me to delete my images.
Lastly, I do hope that everyone here enjoys the fruits of their labor earning more than 50% commissions from 123RF in 10 months time.
No need for hope here. You can easily influence that. Just set the lowest level of your new commission scheme to 50%. So you can be sure "that everyone here enjoys the fruits of their labor earning more than 50% commissions from 123RF in 10 months time."
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1. With regards to sales, we're looking to more than double the figure. 2011 was great for us, we're looking to make 2012 greater. Ultimately your sales as a whole will more than just improve.
Obviously I want to increase my sales. But mostly I want a fair royalty.
The ultimate test of his covetousness is that they know they will increase their sales. And in 2013 also increase their commission. To our detriment. The rest are parole parole parole ...
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I didn't read through this thread since 123RF doesn't interest me all that much because it's only a mid earner for me. I was just checking earnings and saw the commission structure change from Jan 2013. I thought this only applied to new members and those with less than 150 files online, but it looks it applies to everyone, or else I wouldn't be getting this msg. So is it?
If they think they motivated me with this RC scheme they're dead wrong, they just made me care even less about them. The low earnings they bring me, the broken site UL they have (so you have to use FTP even if you upload just a couple of files) and their reviews that take weeks, everything is going downhill with this site. Such a shame, they looked perspective not so long ago. They thought they became big enough to start behaving like IS and FT. And the say money doesn't ruin people...
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Alex,
If implementing such a change, it is absolutely essential, to make the earned RC's to date easily visible and accessible, preferably with an extrapolated prognosis, without us having to rely on our own Excel estimates. I think this should've been made available to us as soon as you publicised this structure.
Despite the spin that "competition is good for us", and "we've got 10.5 months to build a strong portfolio", which are not only patronising but also rather insulting, the lack of providing the specific data and the instruments to assess what conseqences this has for each of us, makes it impossible for us to plan ahead and take the necessary strategic decisions.
Eventhough you say the growth prognosis of 123RF looks swell, you just took away part of your incentive to realise that growth. If you fail to achieve growth, we sell less, earn less RC's, and you end up with a bigger cut, making up for the lack of growth. To me, that sounds like an undesired and unhealthy situation. It effecively places the risk of your marketing and sales performance with us. I find that rather dodgy.
I'm sure you expected the heat that would follow these changes. So please reduce the spin based on guestimates, and provides us with some arguments based on facts. I'm not looking for yet another cool lens cap. Got one forced down the throat with the first RC introductory spin.
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What is the use?
This tread will go the same way all went when an agency cut back our rates. A lot a huff and puffs, every week or so a polite (or borderline insulting) answer from the agency, defending the change (if it is an agency who believe in some communication).
AND THEN, a big blue nothing.......... and finally implementation.
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Okay, just did the math. Based on 2011 numbers, I am in the 50% category, but the low end. No chance of getting higher up, but a real chance of slipping down. Just like Istock, I am hanging on to the rate I have earned, but just barely, and for how long?
Paulie, I definitely get what you are saying, but do you really think Istock exclusivity offers any better protection?
I'm not sure where you got the exclusivity part from because I didn't even mention it and it isn't my point. I'm not recommending anything.
What I'm seeing is a large number of people who still seem to be missing the "support the fair agency" pattern which is "agency X screwed us, c'mon everybody let's support agency Y. Well, agency Y now screwed us so let's all go support agency Z" and on and on. What you do about it, if anything, is up to you.
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...Lastly, I do hope that everyone here enjoys the fruits of their labor earning more than 50% commissions from 123RF in 10 months time.
Wow, man. You just don't get it, do you?
Or maybe I just don't get it. So please, Alex, enlighten me. Look at my account (username mcdonald). Look at my recent output. And look at what I earned last month. Can you really suggest that it'll be no one's fault but mine if I drop a level or two next year?
I make a decent living for myself in this business. I like to think that I know how to craft a quality image that will sell well, and my track record with other agencies is proof that I do, in fact, know what I'm doing. It's not a matter of working harder or building a "solid portfolio" as you put it. My portfolio is solid. I didn't start in this business yesterday. I've got the #10 best selling vector over at SS this week. And also #46 and #47. I put in the time, every day, and produce quality work that is clearly in demand.
123RF needs a new public relations person. You obviously don't know how to not be offensive or condescending, and you seem most interested in just continuing to throw blame at us for the impending cuts. This is almost worse than the istock situation because of your attitude about it. Your suggestion that it's within our control to decide our rate and earn 50% or more is downright insulting. You know as well as we do that it's not that simple. Please stop treating us like children and suggesting that we can influence where we land in 2013 if we just try a little harder.
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I don't want to insult or defend anyone, I'm also contributor on 123rf and probably will not make to 50%, not even 40%, because of my small portfolio, but I'm 100% sure then many, or maybe most of people here complaining against new commission structure have large portfolios on sites like IS and Fotolia or other sites with even smaller than 30 percent commissions.
Someone said already, works do more than just words. If someone doesn't like percentage on certain site, he/she should delete your images from there. If 100 people do that... it will say something.
Sorry for my English.
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someone said here that we shouldn´t join small/new agencies, what shall we join??
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...but I'm 100% sure that many, or maybe most of people here complaining against new commission structure have large portfolios on sites like IS and Fotolia or other sites with even smaller than 30 percent commissions...
You are absolutely right. I'm one of those people. However I'm not really complaining so much about the rate cut itself. I am more taking issue with Alex's assertion that reaching the 50% or higher levels is just a matter of working harder and building a "solid portfolio." Alex clearly has no idea how hard some of us already work, and that effort is not going to be the deciding factor in the rate that many of us end up with. My criticism in this thread has almost entirely been directed at the notion that we are in control of our royalty rates, and that if we fail to maintain 50% it is somehow a matter of lack of effort or a weak portfolio.
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someone said here that we shouldn´t join small/new agencies, what shall we join??
Microstockers Anonymous
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someone said here that we shouldn´t join small/new agencies, what shall we join??
Do you have a "Join Quota" you must meet, like " you must join to 10 new sites every month, or you'll be fired"?
The problem is people joining every new agency that comes up which don't show any type of guarantee that they will survive because they have a solid background, being founded by credible people or any innovative project.
To make things worse people join these suspicious sites which undercut pricing and commissions from other established agencies, making room for the recent actions from Fotolia to reduce the commission of several members that submitted to those sites.
You may argue that some established agencies now pay lower commissions than some of those new sites. The difference is that even sites like IS or FL do sell and a lot, contrary to the new agencies that may give 80% of almost ZERO $!
I personally only joined Yay, after a promising start but after more than a year almost without sales I deleted my portfolio. After that, only supported Veer because they belong to Corbis and with acceptable results since they are way above 123rf and BS. And Stockfresh because it was founded by the creator of Stockxpert. But I'm not going to give this one much more time either since the sales are almost non-existent.
So, my personal strategy is to participate in the top 6 or 7 agencies and unless a new site has a strong credibility it won't have my support. Those sites that may only earn 2 or 3 dollars a month for each contributor, summed up, only end up giving a nice living to their creators. And I don't support that.
As you see you are not forced to join any new agency. Especially if they give valid arguments to the established ones to reduce our commissions.
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Guess what Alex, if you guys are having trouble getting profits up, it has nothing to do with us. Your suggestion to just work harder and build up a better portfolio is offensive at best, downright ignorant at worst.
My words exactly. And 123rf should immediately add a statistics number that shows the credits, I'm not going to do the calculations.
Depending on the result, I might have room for one more logo in my avatar.
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To make things worse people join these suspicious sites which undercut pricing and commissions from other established agencies, making room for the recent actions from Fotolia to reduce the commission of several members that submitted to those sites.
what agencies? photodune? depositphotos? how can FT, IS, 123RF be afraid of them? its pure greed nothing else my friend, these agencies do 10x less than them, they have only a strong motive which is their pockets, like 123RF, IS have said here and in the past that they have more buyers, more sales, so why the cuts?? thats not because of new agencies thats for sure! why have IS created the RC´s? they were afraid of who back in 2010?
As you see you are not forced to join any new agency. Especially if they give valid arguments to the established ones to reduce our commissions.
again which agencies are you making up to this "argument"?
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Depending on the result, I might have room for one more logo in my avatar.
lol, I must be blind because I hadn't realised until now the significance of your avatar - it's great.
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Depending on the result, I might have room for one more logo in my avatar.
lol, I must be blind because I hadn't realised until now the significance of your avatar - it's great.
Yeah I never looked at it properly til now. Nice job Perry! :D
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To make things worse people join these suspicious sites which undercut pricing and commissions from other established agencies, making room for the recent actions from Fotolia to reduce the commission of several members that submitted to those sites.
+1
This is the real problem.
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To make things worse people join these suspicious sites which undercut pricing and commissions from other established agencies, making room for the recent actions from Fotolia to reduce the commission of several members that submitted to those sites.
what agencies? photodune? depositphotos? how can FT, IS, 123RF be afraid of them? its pure greed nothing else my friend, these agencies do 10x less than them, they have only a strong motive which is their pockets, like 123RF, IS have said here and in the past that they have more buyers, more sales, so why the cuts?? thats not because of new agencies thats for sure! why have IS created the RC´s? they were afraid of who back in 2010?
You've already mentioned two agencies, and in the past 6 years there were many others which I don't even bother to remember their names.
And when people support agencies like those it's hard for me to contest any agency using the argument that Fotolia used: "If you don't bother to sell for half the price at another agency, then you won't mind if we cut your commission here"
Even if I know they are doing it for pure greed, it's an unbeatable argument. I'm sorry to say that it makes perfect sense to me!
You also say that they don't pose a threat to other established agencies. Are you kidding? When they reduce the image price they put pressure on the established agencies. Photo buyers are very quick to blackmail an agency pointing to the competition and questioning why they should continue to buy there when they could be licensing the exact same images, with the exact same license for much less!
On Alamy (a traditional agency), I make hundreds of dollars monthly and sometimes pass the $1000 (my cut), and I can assure you that this type of pressure has reduced the average sale price by 65% since 2007. Even if Alamy gives a much broader and naturally much more expensive RF License than Micro, they were forced to drop the prices.
Buyers may be bluffing and intending in fact to continue to shop there, but the threatened agency doesn't know that and will not upset the buyers just for fun.
Summing up, don't give weapons that your "enemies" (unfortunately some agencies became enemies, instead of partners) can use against you! Some people accuse agencies of being greedy, when they themselves with the greed to increase their monthly income by $5 upload thousands of images to every crappy and suspicious site that comes up! Who's more greedy?
Microstock is a business. Unfortunatly many people look at it like a gold rush, kicking every rock in search of the last gold nugget like there's no tomorrow.
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/\ Amen, brother!
I couldn't have said it better myself. (and apparently, I really couldn't... this was the point I tried to make, but just ended up getting some peoples' panties in a bunch.)
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I look strictly at cost effectiveness and time spent. I joined 123 at the very beginning and been with 34 sites since 2004 . I bailed out 2 1/2 years ago. I rejoined and sent 2000 of what I consider my best "Stock" stuff out of 5700 available 4 months ago to give it another shot. I got about 60 rejected out of 2000. I found the upload / Model release system extremely fast and had them done in a few Days. which would be nearly Impossible at any other site. Yes the reviews are slow and I don't really care. in 4 months and a few days of work my sales beat DT and FT with more than twice the Images.Thats a win, Win for me for time spent and return. I have had personal contact with alex as I do with every site im with either with the owner or Admin and I found him to be pretty straight forward if you compare him to some I've dealt with. Im sorry guys But I think there doing a pretty * good job Considering quite a few others.
What they do or not do in the future of course will have to be considered then But if My time spent and my return stays this high regardless...I will have no Problems. And I wish I had back the countless 1000's of hours wasting time uploading to losers.
It's totally about my time and bottom Line and today is what counts for me not 2013. if im happy with my return for whatever change they make and my cost effectiveness, Im in. If not...Im out. Just my opinion and that and 3 dollars will get ya a cup of coffee. LOL!
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To make things worse people join these suspicious sites which undercut pricing and commissions from other established agencies, making room for the recent actions from Fotolia to reduce the commission of several members that submitted to those sites.
what agencies? photodune? depositphotos? how can FT, IS, 123RF be afraid of them? its pure greed nothing else my friend, these agencies do 10x less than them, they have only a strong motive which is their pockets, like 123RF, IS have said here and in the past that they have more buyers, more sales, so why the cuts?? thats not because of new agencies thats for sure! why have IS created the RC´s? they were afraid of who back in 2010?
You've already mentioned two agencies, and in the past 6 years there were many others which I don't even bother to remember their names.
And when people support agencies like those it's hard for me to contest any agency using the argument that Fotolia used: "If you don't bother to sell for half the price at another agency, then you won't mind if we cut your commission here"
Even if I know they are doing it for pure greed, it's an unbeatable argument. I'm sorry to say that it makes perfect sense to me!
You also say that they don't pose a threat to other established agencies. Are you kidding? When they reduce the image price they put pressure on the established agencies. Photo buyers are very quick to blackmail an agency pointing to the competition and questioning why they should continue to buy there when they could be licensing the exact same images, with the exact same license for much less!
On Alamy (a traditional agency), I make hundreds of dollars monthly and sometimes pass the $1000 (my cut), and I can assure you that this type of pressure has reduced the average sale price by 65% since 2007. Even if Alamy gives a much broader and naturally much more expensive RF License than Micro, they were forced to drop the prices.
Buyers may be bluffing and intending in fact to continue to shop there, but the threatened agency doesn't know that and will not upset the buyers just for fun.
Summing up, don't give weapons that your "enemies" (unfortunately some agencies became enemies, instead of partners) can use against you! Some people accuse agencies of being greedy, when they themselves with the greed to increase their monthly income by $5 upload thousands of images to every crappy and suspicious site that comes up! Who's more greedy?
Microstock is a business. Unfortunatly many people look at it like a gold rush, kicking every rock in search of the last gold nugget like there's no tomorrow.
I believe you haven´t read what I have just said :)
FIRST photodune is open with pictures since August 2012 (not September 2010 when IS announced the RCs and FT just a few months after) one thing as nothing to do with other, it has YEARS in between
SECOND they don´t even have a subscription plan which actually makes a nice RPD agency, lowest is 33 cents but my RPD with 185 sales is close to 1$
THIRD how are you so sure 123RF is doing this because of other agencies prices? if so tell why they said here that sales/buyers are growing? don´t tell me you have inside details lol
honestly I don´t understand why you guys come here with non fundamented stuff when there isn´t a positive argument to talk about.. BUT yes can make them look pretty, perhaps you will get somekind of reward, seriously don´t blame the agencies/contributors
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honestly I don´t understand why you guys come here with non fundamented stuff when there isn´t a positive argument to talk about.. BUT yes can make them look pretty, perhaps you will get somekind of reward, seriously don´t blame the agencies/contributors
Luis, it is well known that some of us were directly contacted by one of the big players and told that there were certain small players we contributed to that were undercutting their business. Agree with that argument or not, it has happened, and it is a real concern that we all have to keep in mind. The older, big players ARE feeling threatened by the newer, small players. And if you support the new agencies offering lower prices and commissions, you are helping to drive business away from the older agencies that you also support. At some point you have to ask yourself if that is smart business.
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honestly I don´t understand why you guys come here with non fundamented stuff when there isn´t a positive argument to talk about.. BUT yes can make them look pretty, perhaps you will get somekind of reward, seriously don´t blame the agencies/contributors
Luis, it is well known that some of us were directly contacted by one of the big players and told that there were certain small players we contributed to that were undercutting their business. Agree with that argument or not, it has happened, and it is a real concern that we all have to keep in mind. The older, big players ARE feeling threatened by the newer, small players. And if you support the new agencies offering lower prices and commissions, you are helping to drive business away from the older agencies that you also support. At some point you have to ask yourself if that is smart business.
thats was FT not 123RF.. sorry to tell but you sound like a broken record no matter what I say.. happy royalties my friend!
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honestly I don´t understand why you guys come here with non fundamented stuff when there isn´t a positive argument to talk about.. BUT yes can make them look pretty, perhaps you will get somekind of reward, seriously don´t blame the agencies/contributors
Luis, it is well known that some of us were directly contacted by one of the big players and told that there were certain small players we contributed to that were undercutting their business. Agree with that argument or not, it has happened, and it is a real concern that we all have to keep in mind. The older, big players ARE feeling threatened by the newer, small players. And if you support the new agencies offering lower prices and commissions, you are helping to drive business away from the older agencies that you also support. At some point you have to ask yourself if that is smart business.
Which is exactly why I supported this site first as a buyer and then as a contributor. If I see a drop in earnings or search engine tweaking that benefits site earnings at the cost of contributors, I will no longer support this site as a buyer!
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What a bullcrap, Alex. This is 'money isn't going to be what makes you happy' all over again.
YOU are expecting growth, but at our expense. We will only get a cut, yet we are to believe that that's good for us? If you'd really be growing steadily, a paycut wouldn't be necessary. I will sit out the year, then remove my portfolio. Screw you and your greedy crap.
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I will sit out the year, then remove my portfolio. Screw you and your greedy crap.
That makes two of us bud!!! ;)
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I will sit out the year, then remove my portfolio. Screw you and your greedy crap.
That makes two of us bud!!! ;)
another here. If 123 loses customers (in the way IS/FT did) I wonder if finally sites will think it worth treating contributors fairly...probably not
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will we have RCs revised too? ;D ;D
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Oh, they will, have no doubt about that. The designers who contacted me after the whole IS debacle were very concerned about the impact to contributors. There is a reason people buy fair trade coffee.
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Which is exactly why I supported this site first as a buyer and then as a contributor. If I see a drop in earnings or search engine tweaking that benefits site earnings at the cost of contributors, I will no longer support this site as a buyer!
When are these companies going to realize that at the microstock level there is a huge crossover between the buyers and sellers. Screw one and you screw both. Istock was able to get away with selling images at much higher prices than their competitors because whenever they raised prices many buyers took solace in the fact that they were going to make more money at least on the selling side. Between that and the intense loyalty both buyers and sellers had at istock they were able to make it work ..... until they pushed too far and started lowering commissions. 123rf is doing the same thing only it won't take them as long to fall apart as they don't have the loyalty and earning power that istock did.
Again, at the microstock level when you anger and alienate your contributors you are also angering and alienating many of your buyers.
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What a bullcrap, Alex. This is 'money isn't going to be what makes you happy' all over again.
YOU are expecting growth, but at our expense. We will only get a cut, yet we are to believe that that's good for us? If you'd really be growing steadily, a paycut wouldn't be necessary. I will sit out the year, then remove my portfolio. Screw you and your greedy crap.
Yeah, Alex makes me sick as well with this spinning, twisting of words, how can these ppl even look at themselves in the mirror. I hate 123RF, I'm going to do the same as you, though I'm not sure, I'm going to wait that long
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Another point that drives me insane is the fact that they think a sub - no matter what size is only worth 1 royalty credit. A XXL sub dl should be 5 credits unless they only dl an XS.
Especially considerly 123 is really a subs agency and regular sales are spare.
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Another point that drives me insane is the fact that they think a sub - no matter what size is only worth 1 royalty credit. A XXL sub dl should be 5 credits unless they only dl an XS.
we can add FT on that one too which actually gives us 1/4 :o
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Yeah, but we know what kind of people are running FT. And to think we had to fight to get that 1/4.
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Another point that drives me insane is the fact that they think a sub - no matter what size is only worth 1 royalty credit. A XXL sub dl should be 5 credits unless they only dl an XS.
Especially considerly 123 is really a subs agency and regular sales are spare.
This scheme is a loser - I might have mentioned that once or twice before :) - but I don't think it's logical to credit subs differently for different sizes when we get compensated at a flat rate for subs, no matter the size.
And I took a look at my percentage of subs sales of the monthly totals since last June (when I returned to independence) and it was 41% by units (downloads) and 18% by $$, so I would say it's pretty similar to SS in that a lot of the money is coming from non-sub sales
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Which is exactly why I supported this site first as a buyer and then as a contributor. If I see a drop in earnings or search engine tweaking that benefits site earnings at the cost of contributors, I will no longer support this site as a buyer!
When are these companies going to realize that at the microstock level there is a huge crossover between the buyers and sellers. Screw one and you screw both. Istock was able to get away with selling images at much higher prices than their competitors because whenever they raised prices many buyers took solace in the fact that they were going to make more money at least on the selling side. Between that and the intense loyalty both buyers and sellers had at istock they were able to make it work ..... until they pushed too far and started lowering commissions. 123rf is doing the same thing only it won't take them as long to fall apart as they don't have the loyalty and earning power that istock did.
Again, at the microstock level when you anger and alienate your contributors you are also angering and alienating many of your buyers.
You can add to that buyers that either work for large agencies or buyers that have solid working relationships with key buyers within large agencies. I no longer purchase or upload to IS and many of my contacts and associates chose to end their relationship with them as well.
What really irks me about these new changes, is that the company feels completely justified in funding their expansion and pet projects at the expense of its submitters; who provide and fund the resources that make their business possible.
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And I took a look at my percentage of subs sales of the monthly totals since last June (when I returned to independence) and it was 41% by units (downloads) and 18% by $$, so I would say it's pretty similar to SS in that a lot of the money is coming from non-sub sales
123RF - 49% (downloads) and 22% $$ (subs)
SS - 31% $$ (not subs)
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I will sit out the year, then remove my portfolio. Screw you and your greedy crap.
That makes two of us bud!!! ;)
another here. If 123 loses customers (in the way IS/FT did) I wonder if finally sites will think it worth treating contributors fairly...probably not
another here! I am deeply angered by the decision to 123RF.
I have a small portfolio (170 img), but with a high quality.
Under an earnings threshold, it leads in the robbery.
Who wants to be robbed remains well. But it was a massacre.
If these are the intentions of 123RF,
before the end of the year will cancel my portfolio.
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I don't think 123rf will double their sales after we start to steer the traffic to some nicer sites and badmouthing (only with facts!) them on forums. The IS/FT phenomenon will happen to them. They will be lucky to have half of their current sales.
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I don't think 123rf will double their sales after we start to steer the traffic to some nicer sites and badmouthing (only with facts!) them on forums. The IS/FT phenomenon will happen to them. They will be lucky to have half of their current sales.
Yup, they just don't get it do they. To be in a position of assent and to risk it all in a move like this is completely disastrous, for them. They may have got away unscathed if they stuck to their original plan of commission cuts for new contributors. Bad press such as what IS and ft have and are still receiving can do untold harm for a company.
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Yup, they just don't get it do they.
They also don't get how close relations most of the professional photographers have with different advertising/design agencies/magazines etc. I have been telling facts about IS and FT to them, and next time I think I'll add 123rf to my "black list".
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Add me to the list of angry contributors. Based on my average RC per DL I'll need to increase my portfolio to six times it's current size and 123 will need to triple the sales if I'm going to keep my 50%. That's quite a leap from what they promised just a month ago when they told me my current portfolio and download rate would grandfather me in at 50%. >:(
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Another unhappy contributor here.
One thing that hasn't been touched on much is that the 123RF commission % is based on the price the buyer paid for the credits and not based on 1 credit = $1.
It appears that 123RF seems to quite heavily discount their credit packages.
From a quick review of my last 100 credit sales, 308 credits were required for their purchase.
One would assume that at a 50% royalty that the commission would be close to $154, however the actual commission received was actually $126.
This represents an average credit discount of 18% given by 123RF to its buyers, which takes a substantial chunk out of our commission earnings.
I have had some XXL and XXL TIFF sales where the discount that 123RF must have given to the buyer is close to 60%.
Based on an average discount of 18% (from review of my last 100 credit sales) our sales are currently already being sold at what is effectively a percentage much lower than 50%, by hiding it behind buyer credit discounts.
If 123Rf are planning to increase sales dramatically as Alex says, how much of that is going to be at the cost of the contributor, by large credit discounts to buyers, even before they cut the commissions.
The proposed cut in commissions coupled with the fact that our dollars received are often based on substantial buyer credit discounts is just one step too far.
Alex if you are out there, I would like to here your reply to this.
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Still waiting for the reply to this question:
Why a sale from a big contributor is more valuable than a sale from a smaller one, when for the buyer each image is the best one for their project and don't care for the name of the photographer. And you even charge the same for each image!
Please explain to me why a niche contributor who has a unique collection, which doesn't sell thousands of photos per month but is the only one supplying that type of imagery, should accept the commission cut when it's you who are privileged to have those photos in the first place?!
I still need to be explained why a sale from a particular contributor, is less valuable than a sale from another one to the point that one suffers discrimination!
And please don't come with the excuse that some contributors produce more salable content. If you have non-salable content in your collection blame and punish yourself for having accepted it, don't punish the contributor for submitting it.
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@XPTO. You know the answer to your question and that they'll probably never say it directly or in public.
They want to minimize their payout to contributors but they're afraid that the most successful contributors will walk if they cut their commissions too much. The tiered payout structure isn't because your images are worth any less than Yuri's or Monkey Business Images' but because they can't afford for them to walk and they feel they can live without you (or me or any of the other smaller contributors).
They - 123rf - are exercising their power (no logic or reason, just because they can as the agency with the storefront) and softening the impact on the contributors who hold more than average leverage of their own. They hope they'll keep us all quiet this way and up their take from the business.
If all this talk about improving sales produces some actual improvement in sales over the next several months, I might decide to stay come Jan 2013. At the moment I see a site that is barely functioning with contributor login (see the other thread about problems loading) and sales bumping along about as they have been - good, but not iStock good where I feel I have to tolerate their greedy ways.
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Well at least for once I'm among the privileged. The first time ever and I missed all the promotions too (like 10c for every accepted file at DP etc)
Not anymore.
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After some dwelling and ruminating on this issue, I'm completely failing to see any logical relationship between these two proposals.
The first one read to me like a very reasonable 'carrot' for under-performing contributors to push through a big influx of images before the deadline to continue to enjoy their 50% cut, with a slow and gradual increase in 123RF's 'take' over time from newer contributors who haven't contributed to their success to date.
The second reads like a 'stick' to beat almost all contributors with, as if 123rf will fall down if it doesn't hugely increase it's cut from our work.
I can't make any sense of how 'A' became 'B' in this scenario.
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After some dwelling and ruminating on this issue, I'm completely failing to see any logical relationship between these two proposals.
The first one read to me like a very reasonable 'carrot' for under-performing contributors to push through a big influx of images before the deadline to continue to enjoy their 50% cut, with a slow and gradual increase in 123RF's 'take' over time from newer contributors who haven't contributed to their success to date.
The second reads like a 'stick' to beat almost all contributors with, as if 123rf will fall down if it doesn't hugely increase it's cut from our work.
I can't make any sense of how 'A' became 'B' in this scenario.
..and for them to change from plan A (small ports) to plan B (all) within just a few weeks. Plan A wasn't even implemented yet. I think we could all guess (I know I did) that plan B was coming, but heck I was expecting a year or two, even maybe 3. I think it's not just the commission cuts that annoy people here but the way it was done. It makes them look Fly by.
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the coolest thing is that many contributors think that we are the ones to blame! :D
when we know there is only one thing here, which I won´t repeat again..
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This is an excellent post that brings up a very important question that needs to be answered. Are we eating the cost of discounts offered to buyers? Add the discount to our commissions and we are in very bad shape here. I am mad at myself for trusting the hype and ignoring my gut feeling on this site. I have no reason to upload new images to 123rf considering they probably wont be reviewed until the changes take place anyway.
You can bs us all you want. I sure hope you arent bs'ing yourself too.
Another unhappy contributor here.
One thing that hasn't been touched on much is that the 123RF commission % is based on the price the buyer paid for the credits and not based on 1 credit = $1.
It appears that 123RF seems to quite heavily discount their credit packages.
From a quick review of my last 100 credit sales, 308 credits were required for their purchase.
One would assume that at a 50% royalty that the commission would be close to $154, however the actual commission received was actually $126.
This represents an average credit discount of 18% given by 123RF to its buyers, which takes a substantial chunk out of our commission earnings.
I have had some XXL and XXL TIFF sales where the discount that 123RF must have given to the buyer is close to 60%.
Based on an average discount of 18% (from review of my last 100 credit sales) our sales are currently already being sold at what is effectively a percentage much lower than 50%, by hiding it behind buyer credit discounts.
If 123Rf are planning to increase sales dramatically as Alex says, how much of that is going to be at the cost of the contributor, by large credit discounts to buyers, even before they cut the commissions.
The proposed cut in commissions coupled with the fact that our dollars received are often based on substantial buyer credit discounts is just one step too far.
Alex if you are out there, I would like to here your reply to this.
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Still waiting for the reply to this question:
Why a sale from a big contributor is more valuable than a sale from a smaller one, when for the buyer each image is the best one for their project and don't care for the name of the photographer. And you even charge the same for each image!
Please explain to me why a niche contributor who has a unique collection, which doesn't sell thousands of photos per month but is the only one supplying that type of imagery, should accept the commission cut when it's you who are privileged to have those photos in the first place?!
These are excellent questions, I wish they would answer these. But I'm almost sure they won't because they haven't got any good answers.
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I just started contributing to 123 .... and with the mention of 'royalty credits', I just stopped.
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Imagine you open a store and 100 vendors sign up to supply you with products.
After a few years, it's clear to you that 20 of those vendors are supplying products that fly off the shelves, and the other 80 are giving you products that don't sell very well, and frankly, are taking up space on the shelves. If you could put more products from those 20 high-selling vendors front-and-center in front of your customers, you would probably sell more. You could make your store larger and larger to treat every vendor the same and give everyone equal shelf space, but your customers would get lost, and the shopping experience would become maddening, sending them elsewhere.
So you decide to sweeten your financial arrangements with your 20 best selling vendors and make the deal less financially attractive for the other 80. The end result is that the 20 best sellers give you more and more stuff since you strengthened those relationships, and a number of the other 80 decide to stop supplying you. You're OK with this, since their products weren't bringing in customers, and the extra shelf space makes more room for the additional products from the top sellers.
And before the obvious is pointed out, yes, a physical store is very different from an online store... one has a fixed amount of space for products and one has infinite space. BUT... as a buyer, wouldn't you rather be presented with 100 great results than 10,000 -- some great but many more just OK? Looking at it like that, I think the analogy holds up.
Frankly, where the analogy truly breaks down is here... if you were the store owner in this scenario, you simply wouldn't carry the stuff that doesn't sell. Those non-selling vendors would be history.
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Imagine you open a store and 100 vendors sign up to supply you with products.
After a few years, it's clear to you that 20 of those vendors are supplying products that fly off the shelves, and the other 80 are giving you products that don't sell very well, and frankly, are taking up space on the shelves. If you could put more products from those 20 high-selling vendors front-and-center in front of your customers, you would probably sell more. You could make your store larger and larger to treat every vendor the same and give everyone equal shelf space, but your customers would get lost, and the shopping experience would become maddening, sending them elsewhere.
So you decide to sweeten your financial arrangements with your 20 best selling vendors and make the deal less financially attractive for the other 80. The end result is that the 20 best sellers give you more and more stuff since you strengthened those relationships, and a number of the other 80 decide to stop supplying you. You're OK with this, since their products weren't bringing in customers, and the extra shelf space makes more room for the additional products from the top sellers.
And before the obvious is pointed out, yes, a physical store is very different from an online store... one has a fixed amount of space for products and one has infinite space. BUT... as a buyer, wouldn't you rather be presented with 100 great results than 10,000 -- some great but many more just OK? Looking at it like that, I think the analogy holds up.
Frankly, where the analogy truly breaks down is here... if you were the store owner in this scenario, you simply wouldn't carry the stuff that doesn't sell. Those non-selling vendors would be history.
As part of 80 at the end of the year i will take my thousand imagines away
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So you decide to sweeten your financial arrangements with your 20 best selling vendors and make the deal less financially attractive for the other 80. The end result is that the 20 best sellers give you more and more stuff since you strengthened those relationships, and a number of the other 80 decide to stop supplying you. You're OK with this, since their products weren't bringing in customers, and the extra shelf space makes more room for the additional products from the top sellers.
This makes sense in theory. Unfortunately, in practice, there are a few kinks. Sites have discovered that rigging their search engines to promote the images they make the most profit on is preferable to boosting the (previous) best selling contributors.
I am black diamond on Istock, but my stuff has been buried there, and sales have been in decline for a year or more. Same story on Fotolia. It's no coincidence that since the last major search engine shakeup Emeralds have reported plummeting sales, and lower ranked (lower percentage) contributors report sales are booming.
Once 123RF figures out it can boost it's profits by pushing its lowest ranked (most profitable) artists to the front of its searches, the same thing will happen.
The real death of this industry will be the fact that it punishes its successful suppliers in its pursuit of short-term profits.
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I would love to hear a theory about IS cuts too :D (seriously love it)
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So you decide to sweeten your financial arrangements with your 20 best selling vendors and make the deal less financially attractive for the other 80. The end result is that the 20 best sellers give you more and more stuff since you strengthened those relationships, and a number of the other 80 decide to stop supplying you. You're OK with this, since their products weren't bringing in customers, and the extra shelf space makes more room for the additional products from the top sellers.
This makes sense in theory. Unfortunately, in practice, there are a few kinks. Sites have discovered that rigging their search engines to promote the images they make the most profit on is preferable to boosting the (previous) best selling contributors.
I am black diamond on Istock, but my stuff has been buried there, and sales have been in decline for a year or more. Same story on Fotolia. It's no coincidence that since the last major search engine shakeup Emeralds have reported plummeting sales, and lower ranked (lower percentage) contributors report sales are booming.
Once 123RF figures out it can boost it's profits by pushing its lowest ranked (most profitable) artists to the front of its searches, the same thing will happen.
The real death of this industry will be the fact that it punishes its successful suppliers in its pursuit of short-term profits.
I'm not sure what you describe is happening to everyone. Some have reported this experience, but I'm not seeing it myself... sales have been steady at FT and other sites despite me being in the higher commission groups.
123RF is actually doing the opposite of what you describe... they are rewarding the top sellers. Let's not punish them now for what they MIGHT do later, when in fact they're doing what smart business says is the right thing... recognize what sells and reward those who provide it.
From a business standpoint, I think it would be suicide for an agency to say "Here's the stuff that sells really well... I'm going to push this to the back of the shelf where it won't get seen... all because this new, untested stuff makes me two cents more on the dollar." Yes, you should give new stuff a chance to rise up and get seen to see if customers want it, but you wouldn't bury your tried-and-true hot sellers for a quick few cents.
I know your gut says this is what's happening today on some or all of the big sites, but I don't buy it... it assumes total ineptitude on a widespread basis. For all our complaints about the agency owners, they must know a thing or two about what their customers really want.
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123RF is actually doing the opposite of what you describe... they are rewarding the top sellers. Let's not punish them now for what they MIGHT do later, when in fact they're doing what smart business says is the right thing... recognize what sells and reward those who provide it.
like iStock :D
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So you decide to sweeten your financial arrangements with your 20 best selling vendors and make the deal less financially attractive for the other 80. The end result is that the 20 best sellers give you more and more stuff since you strengthened those relationships, and a number of the other 80 decide to stop supplying you. You're OK with this, since their products weren't bringing in customers, and the extra shelf space makes more room for the additional products from the top sellers.
This makes sense in theory. Unfortunately, in practice, there are a few kinks. Sites have discovered that rigging their search engines to promote the images they make the most profit on is preferable to boosting the (previous) best selling contributors.
I am black diamond on Istock, but my stuff has been buried there, and sales have been in decline for a year or more. Same story on Fotolia. It's no coincidence that since the last major search engine shakeup Emeralds have reported plummeting sales, and lower ranked (lower percentage) contributors report sales are booming.
Once 123RF figures out it can boost it's profits by pushing its lowest ranked (most profitable) artists to the front of its searches, the same thing will happen.
The real death of this industry will be the fact that it punishes its successful suppliers in its pursuit of short-term profits.
I agree with your recap, which is why it is infuriating to see sites make these moves so that they can gather the resources needed to manipulate sales at our expense.
I think SS is in the process of implementing this scenario as we speak. To date it does not seem that they are using their newly hired programmers to fix the serious bugs that negatively impact the folks who's hard work has helped them prosper and grow.
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I think SS is in the process of implementing this scenario as we speak. To date it does not seem that they are using their newly hired programmers to fix the serious bugs that negatively impact the folks who's hard work has helped them prosper and grow.
Lord, I hope not. If SS joins IS and FT in burying best-sellers, then there's really long term future in this business IMO.
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...After a few years, it's clear to you that 20 of those vendors are supplying products that fly off the shelves, and the other 80 are giving you products that don't sell very well, and frankly, are taking up space on the shelves. ... if you were the store owner in this scenario, you simply wouldn't carry the stuff that doesn't sell. Those non-selling vendors would be history.
The flaw in the analogy is that the non-Yuri non-"fly off the shelves" suppliers are not providing you with the same products (ignoring for the moment that some lazy bums are just trying to copy what sells but not doing as good a job of it). The reason you want to have product from other than the 20 vendors who sell in high volume is that you want to serve the full range of buyer's image needs which will often mean one of the happy-smiling-standard stock images and sometimes mean a shot of a fish market in a small town or a landmark in a particular tourist destination, or...
There are several places you can read about how fed up buyers are with the look-alike sameness of what they can now buy as stock. Dump the 80 "non-sellers" from your mythical store and you'll speed up the process of buyers finding somewhere else to shop because they can't get what they want from you.
123rf is rewarding the volume sellers. Saying "top" suggests other good attributes beyond sales volume. There's tons of quality stuff that doesn't sell in volume (like almost all of Getty's top end RM content). Mass market sellers (which are generally of highest technical quality; I'm not suggesting they're not a quality product) that look like they came from where they did - a factory - probably won't last very long as a business strategy. So possibly in the long run 123rf dumping those of us in the 80 group is really doing us a favor by forcing us to find other outlets?
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The idea of rewarding top contributors is not that controversial or new. Honestly 123RF is more punishing non top contributors though.
Also the store analogy is possibly somewhat apt, but missing something critical. Many stores open w/ new items and do well at first, but at some point a bean counter realizes that it is the normal boring items that actually make the most $, so they gradually devote more and more shelf space to those items. At some point they pass a tipping point and there are no longer the niche interesting items that actually bring customers into the store because they might as well just go to any other store that also has those same high $ return items.
I think this can happen with stock too, when a customer looks for a specific image and can't find it, they go look for it elsewhere. If this happens enough they will switch to where they find the images. This can hurt a place if they don't have the obscure images or if their search is so convoluted or lousy that it can't be found. All the sites will have heaps of business handshakes and smiling lifestyle shots, but if someone needs a specific image and can't find it they will go somewhere else.
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It seems like a risk. However if they are able to keep most of their customers they're in the money, as well as maybe saving money by having fewer reviewers and other staff.
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I have a little portfolio of isometric vector.
my images have a high technical value.
With the system 123RF, I will be very much penalized although I have a high technical portfolio.
If 123RF wants to throw out small contributors can do. Is the law of market.
But for the law of market I will move the my portfolio where it is appreciated.
Gets angry be treated as a nuisance instead of a resouce and end up inside a uman meat grinder.
This is the global market and the only choice is to migrate my images on other shelves.
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Some food for thought, this is from the description of how the changes will work from 123RF's captcha page before the earnings page:
The mechanics of deriving a Contributor’s Commission are as follows:
1. At the end of every month, a Contributor’s total credits from all downloads in the previous 12 months shall be summed according to this table:
This means that contributors will really feel the cost of any site outages during high traffic months (fall/spring). If there is a site problem that causes loss of downloads, you may not have enough to average out your slow months properly, resulting in your commissions dropping. This is especially troubling for borderline people that are almost to the next tier or barely over.
2. The summed credit amount shall determine the Contributor’s Level.
3. The Contributor’s level will determine the commissions for each download in the preceding month.
You won't know your commission level for the month you are in until the month ends. That means no more daily sales figures, the only thing they can report on is the number of downloads of what type. The actual monetary value of those credits won't be determined until month end. This is going to really mess with budgeting on both the contributors side and the agency's side (and I'm not quite certain that this would be legal).
Edit: One possibility I just realized is that they might be using the word 'preceding' where they actually mean 'proceeding'. That would make more sense, but such a basic failing of English in an official document would be almost as scary as the idea of determining the month's commission level at the end of the month.
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I threw together a quick little Javascript based credit calculator for people who are not sure where they would land. Just go into your earnings page, highlight the past full year of data (so currently, Jan 2012 through Feb 2011), copy and paste it into the box (make sure to get the whole line), then hit the calculate button.
I don't have a sales column for EPS in my current earnings page, so this will be broken for people with illustration sales. The columns I currently have are below, if anyone else has something different, let me know and I can tweak it:
Month/Year Sub S M L XL XXLTF XXLMH PEL EEL CEL MS 100MB 200MB 300MB
http://davidgilder.com/misc/123RF_credit_calculator.html (http://davidgilder.com/misc/123RF_credit_calculator.html)
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I don't have a sales column for EPS in my current earnings page, so this will be broken for people with illustration sales. The columns I currently have are below, if anyone else has something different, let me know and I can tweak it:
Month/Year Sub S M L XL XXLTF XXLMH PEL EEL CEL MS 100MB 200MB 300MB
I was assuming that XXLMH sales were EPS sales, since I have a bunch of those sales. Anybody else?
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I threw together a quick little Javascript based credit calculator for people who are not sure where they would land. Just go into your earnings page, highlight the past full year of data (so currently, Jan 2012 through Feb 2011), copy and paste it into the box (make sure to get the whole line), then hit the calculate button.
I don't have a sales column for EPS in my current earnings page, so this will be broken for people with illustration sales. The columns I currently have are below, if anyone else has something different, let me know and I can tweak it:
Month/Year Sub S M L XL XXLTF XXLMH PEL EEL CEL MS 100MB 200MB 300MB
[url]http://davidgilder.com/misc/123RF_credit_calculator.html[/url] ([url]http://davidgilder.com/misc/123RF_credit_calculator.html[/url])
hahaha brilliant. Thank You! This is going to cause a riot.
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I threw together a quick little Javascript based credit calculator for people who are not sure where they would land. Just go into your earnings page, highlight the past full year of data (so currently, Jan 2012 through Feb 2011), copy and paste it into the box (make sure to get the whole line), then hit the calculate button.
I don't have a sales column for EPS in my current earnings page, so this will be broken for people with illustration sales. The columns I currently have are below, if anyone else has something different, let me know and I can tweak it:
Month/Year Sub S M L XL XXLTF XXLMH PEL EEL CEL MS 100MB 200MB 300MB
[url]http://davidgilder.com/misc/123RF_credit_calculator.html[/url] ([url]http://davidgilder.com/misc/123RF_credit_calculator.html[/url])
ahah you the man :D
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I was assuming that XXLMH sales were EPS sales, since I have a bunch of those sales. Anybody else?
Hmm, not sure, maybe they stick them in the same column? If you go to the individual downloads page for a month (where it shows the actual images downloaded), the columns titles are different and it lists XXL JPG instead (when you hover over the heading it says 'Mega High').
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BTW, if the sales continue picking up, I would probably only drop to the 40% level if anyone is curious.
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2009: 185
2010: 712
2011: 2260
2012: 383
last six months included this February: 1429
looks like 45% unless they keep on growing even faster, we need revised RC too ;D
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Nice tool. Thanks for sharing.
But one thing to keep in mind is that if you have seen growth in the past 12 months, you should apply that rate of growth to the numbers this tool generates to figure out what percentage you will see at 123RF next year.
For instance, my Jan 2012 number is about triple my Jan 2011 number, so if I assume my rate of growth will be consistent throughout 2012, I should be able to triple the number generated by this chart to figure where I'll land in the new 123RF structure.
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But one thing to keep in mind is that if you have seen growth in the past 12 months, you should apply that rate of growth to the numbers this tool generates to figure out what percentage you will see at 123RF next year.
No guarantees growth will be sustained, aren't they telling us in fact that they can't sustain their growth with the measly 50% they are currently getting? Isn't that why this whole change has to happen in the first place?
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But one thing to keep in mind is that if you have seen growth in the past 12 months, you should apply that rate of growth to the numbers this tool generates to figure out what percentage you will see at 123RF next year.
No guarantees growth will be sustained, aren't they telling us in fact that they can't sustain their growth with the measly 50% they are currently getting? Isn't that why this whole change has to happen in the first place?
Two things:
Actually, Alex told us this: "With regards to sales, we're looking to more than double the figure. 2011 was great for us, we're looking to make 2012 greater. Ultimately your sales as a whole will more than just improve." Maybe it's a load of bs, but that's a far cry from suggesting they said they can't sustain their growth.
But let's say there's none of the incremental growth that Alex predicts, and we all remain flat to where we are today, relatively speaking. You should still compare your Jan 2012 vs Jan 2011 number to figure out the percent difference and apply that to each month in 2011 to figure out what your 2012 totals should be. Again, that's FLAT... no additional growth for 2012... just taking your ACTUAL difference between Jan 2012 and Jan 2011 and applying it for each other month, and assuming your gains don't slide backward, but are simply consistent.
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its weird how US/THEM are growing BUT they are going to cut :D
HELL it makes a lot of sense or is it anything else? nooo!
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You should still compare your Jan 2012 vs Jan 2011 number to figure out the percent difference and apply that to each month in 2011 to figure out what your 2012 totals should be.
Pay me to update the calculator and I'll make it give you a non-committal prediction of the future ;) Or you could just revisit it next January and have a better idea of what your royalties will be.
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You should still compare your Jan 2012 vs Jan 2011 number to figure out the percent difference and apply that to each month in 2011 to figure out what your 2012 totals should be.
Pay me to update the calculator and I'll make it give you a non-committal prediction of the future ;) Or you could just revisit it next January and have a better idea of what your royalties will be.
why don´t you sell it to 123RF? forget they are doing cuts not into expenses! :D
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You should still compare your Jan 2012 vs Jan 2011 number to figure out the percent difference and apply that to each month in 2011 to figure out what your 2012 totals should be.
Pay me to update the calculator and I'll make it give you a non-committal prediction of the future ;) Or you could just revisit it next January and have a better idea of what your royalties will be.
I actually did my own "Excel-fu" on my numbers with the new rates last week, so I'm all set there...
I just thought it was worth pointing out that if someone simply plugged in their past year's worth of numbers to figure out where they'll end up at the end of 2012 for the new 123RF structure won't give you an accurate result if you've been seeing growth lately. Just something to keep in mind.
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thank you LOL
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I just thought it was worth pointing out that if someone simply plugged in their past year's worth of numbers to figure out where they'll end up at the end of 2012 for the new 123RF structure won't give you an accurate result if you've been seeing growth lately. Just something to keep in mind.
A valid point, since this coming year will be so unpredictable. Alex has encouraged us to massively update our portfolios in an effort to retain our royalty rates, which means each contributor is likely to be seeing less exposure even as overall site traffic increases. No real clear way to guess or predict this since we are now dealing with so many unknowns.
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I just thought it was worth pointing out that if someone simply plugged in their past year's worth of numbers to figure out where they'll end up at the end of 2012 for the new 123RF structure won't give you an accurate result if you've been seeing growth lately. Just something to keep in mind.
A valid point, since this coming year will be so unpredictable. Alex has encouraged us to massively update our portfolios in an effort to retain our royalty rates, which means each contributor is likely to be seeing less exposure even as overall site traffic increases. No real clear way to guess or predict this since we are now dealing with so many unknowns.
that adds up something, not the marketer talk :D
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Worse than anything else is the way they're handling this. I can take the pay cut. Let's face it; 40% is still a heck of a lot better than we get at a few other places. SS included.
But what's most insulting is Alex's attitude about this (that 'you've got 10 months to build up a solid portfolio' garbage) and the lack of communication. Things got quiet in here quick, and an email I sent to 123RF last week has gone unanswered. I'm not impressed by their lack of tact in handling the contributor relations part of this.
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Remember how IS said we would get 50% of our RC for the year from the last 4 months. I think I got under 1/3.
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That is partly due to the strong negative response to IS' changes from designer/contributors and all their designer buddies.
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Worse than anything else is the way they're handling this. I can take the pay cut. Let's face it; 40% is still a heck of a lot better than we get at a few other places. SS included.
But what's most insulting is Alex's attitude about this (that 'you've got 10 months to build up a solid portfolio' garbage) and the lack of communication. Things got quiet in here quick, and an email I sent to 123RF last week has gone unanswered. I'm not impressed by their lack of tact in handling the contributor relations part of this.
I hate to point this out, but $16 at 40% is not higher than $100 at ?% I don't care how you figure it. SS brings in 625% more money. Is that a meaningful percentage for you? ;D
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Actually, Alex told us this: "With regards to sales, we're looking to more than double the figure. 2011 was great for us, we're looking to make 2012 greater. Ultimately your sales as a whole will more than just improve." Maybe it's a load of bs, but that's a far cry from suggesting they said they can't sustain their growth.
I've got a bridge I'm interested in selling you.
Talk is cheap. Have sales doubled for you there in the last year?
10 months to build up? That means that a year from THEN is when you would get the higher commissions. That's assuming they don't change their mind again. The only thing consistent about 123rf is their lack of consistency in their message(s).
Why continue to build this site up and take away from the sites that charge more and ultimately pay more. I just went through my sales at 123rf and am finding commission amounts with more variance than even DT.
A few examples...
For an XL file I was paid $1.72 Are they selling for $3.44 now?
For an L file I was paid $1.12 implying a $2.24 sale
Then another L file paid me $1.30. Why was this one sold for $2.60?
Medium file paid me $0.60. Sold for $1.20?
Now I get a Large sale commission at $.91. Really?
Small size pays me $0.40
and on and on...as far as I can tell I had two medium sales that paid me $1.00. Every other sale is a very partial commission rate. Way more sales are discounted than not. I am not getting paid 50% now. Next year this site has strong potential to be the lowest paying site out there. Now they are just pretty much tied for that category.
Do these sales stats mean if they give away free promotional credits to encourage a new buyer they are not paying me any commission on those downloads?
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lack of communication. Things got quiet in here quick, and an email I sent to 123RF last week has gone unanswered. I'm not impressed by their lack of tact in handling the contributor relations part of this.
For the past 3 years, none of my e-mails to 123rf has been answered.
NEVER!!!
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I hate to point this out, but $16 at 40% is not higher than $100 at ?% I don't care how you figure it. SS brings in 625% more money. Is that a meaningful percentage for you? ;D
Very meaningful. I'm not a fan of RPD as a useful stat in this business. No doubt about it, the larger monthly total at SS is far more valuable to me than any percentage.
Just saying that 40% as a percentage alone is still higher than what many microstock agencies offer.
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Just saying that 40% as a percentage alone is still higher than what many microstock agencies offer.
40% of what though? Like I mentioned above...right now we get 50% but it's 50% of a deeply discounted sale. It seems there are more "promotional credit" sales than regular sales at 123 so the way I see it I'm getting around 20% of a bargain basement low price regular sale as it is. If we are forced to pay for their marketing in addition to a drop in commission you have to ask yourself what's the point? Any sale there is one sale that otherwise would have happened at SS, DT, FT or IS.
I know FT does a lot of promo credits but they pay us the full commission rate regardless. This should be the industry standard in my opinion. We don't get to choose how much these guys send out in promo credits. At the very least we should be able to opt out of selling our images with promo credits. I never agreed to that unless it's buried somewhere in the fine print.
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lack of communication. Things got quiet in here quick, and an email I sent to 123RF last week has gone unanswered. I'm not impressed by their lack of tact in handling the contributor relations part of this.
For the past 3 years, none of my e-mails to 123rf has been answered.
NEVER!!!
They answer mine. Would you like me to forward any messages?
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Just saying that 40% as a percentage alone is still higher than what many microstock agencies offer.
40% of what though? Like I mentioned above...right now we get 50% but it's 50% of a deeply discounted sale. It seems there are more "promotional credit" sales than regular sales at 123 so the way I see it I'm getting around 20% of a bargain basement low price regular sale as it is. If we are forced to pay for their marketing in addition to a drop in commission you have to ask yourself what's the point? Any sale there is one sale that otherwise would have happened at SS, DT, FT or IS.
I know FT does a lot of promo credits but they pay us the full commission rate regardless. This should be the industry standard in my opinion. We don't get to choose how much these guys send out in promo credits. At the very least we should be able to opt out of selling our images with promo credits. I never agreed to that unless it's buried somewhere in the fine print.
This is exactly what caused me to remove my portfolio in Dec 2010 ... with much ridicule from my peers. :P
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*major roundhouse kick*
1. With regards to sales, we're looking to more than double the figure. 2011 was great for us, we're looking to make 2012 greater. Ultimately your sales as a whole will more than just improve. We are having month after month of improving sales, spurred on by the growth - We are spending more on advertising and promotions than ever before with more campaigns coming up soon, we're allocating a large proportion of sales revenue into various marketing channels and this is bearing fruit - I believe that most have enjoyed the increased sales throughout 2011. We're not slowing down on this.
Well, 2012 is almost over, and sales haven't 'more than doubled'. An 68% increase, which means I'll be dropping to a lousy 35% commission. Thanks a bunch. I feel really valued now.
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If they actually decide to go through with the proposed pay changes, then I am ditching them - no question about it.
the rates i am getting now is just lousy - on the very edge of begrudging acceptance.
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huh - two people posting in a row both with 'noodle' in their name (well, almost). Never would have guessed the humble noodle would be so popular a nickname :)
I think all of us have been waiting for 123rf to say "hang on, we got it wrong, sorry about that and lets change it" but all signs point to that not happening. Think it's downhill from here I'm afraid..
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*major roundhouse kick*
1. With regards to sales, we're looking to more than double the figure. 2011 was great for us, we're looking to make 2012 greater. Ultimately your sales as a whole will more than just improve. We are having month after month of improving sales, spurred on by the growth - We are spending more on advertising and promotions than ever before with more campaigns coming up soon, we're allocating a large proportion of sales revenue into various marketing channels and this is bearing fruit - I believe that most have enjoyed the increased sales throughout 2011. We're not slowing down on this.
Well, 2012 is almost over, and sales haven't 'more than doubled'. An 68% increase, which means I'll be dropping to a lousy 35% commission. Thanks a bunch. I feel really valued now.
Well, I only had a 10% increase in sales... More than double?!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
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Well 123 can go suck lemons. I am done with them. Started in February and added 600 photos. I had 8 sales in the first two months and then 25 each month after. No growth in 6 months, nothing. I have been in a row with them lately over their editorial BS decisions as well. Come January, I will drop them. I hope many others with me. This is the chance to stand up to an agency and show them they need us, we dont need them. Its simple really, without photos there is no agency.
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I'd go along with that. Low RPD with high volumes is acceptable, low RPD with low volumes is not. I like the upload process / reviewing and customer support is good but, even as a hobbiest, the new rates will simply make it not worthwhile. I'm going to stop uploading as soon as the new rates kick in then give it a month or so to see if volumes double - if not will start disabling my port.
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I'd go along with that. Low RPD with high volumes is acceptable, low RPD with low volumes is not. I like the upload process / reviewing and customer support is good but, even as a hobbiest, the new rates will simply make it not worthwhile. I'm going to stop uploading as soon as the new rates kick in then give it a month or so to see if volumes double - if not will start disabling my port.
There support has been good indeed. Fast replies from nice people. Sorry that they need to follow some backwards policies from the Stalins above them. Also their uploading process is really fast and easy. So no complaints there. But because of the Stalins and the price cut, I will do the same, if sales do not go up and with that the $$$, they can suck ** ****
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Well, I haven't calculated the RC, since it is a bit of a pain and not necessarily correct but just looking at total number of sales for the first 10 months of 2011 to the first 10 months of 2012 I increased 51% (I also increased my port 38% during the same time) - so they are no where near on track to double my sales - in addition I think subs and small sales account for a fair bit of the increase and they have a small impact on the RC total.
123RF really should be reporting RC totals since they are so important to us.
They are also WAY off on their sunny doubling sales statement. In fact they are not performing and I should be able to cut their percentage to increase their motivation and so they can appreciate the predictability and stability of their income off of my images.
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I think this should still work (for images only, not video): http://davidgilder.com/misc/123RF_credit_calculator.html (http://davidgilder.com/misc/123RF_credit_calculator.html)
Just make sure you copy all the text from the lines for this year from the 123RF royalties page, then go back to 2011 and copy the lines for November and December.
Looks like I will drop to 40%.
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123RF really should be reporting RC totals since they are so important to us.
They are also WAY off on their sunny doubling sales statement. In fact they are not performing and I should be able to cut their percentage to increase their motivation and so they can appreciate the predictability and stability of their income off of my images.
+1
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I think we need to keep something in perspective. If 35 or 40% is so unfair, I'm curious which sites you think treat you so much more fairly? Yes, no one likes getting a cut, but when you're happily submitting to so many other agencies giving you well under 40%, how long can you expect 123RF to ignore this competition and continue paying you 50%?
By all means, if you're angry about the cut, exercise your anger by dropping your accounts at 123RF. But given their position in the poll results (look at the list on the right... they're currently #5 of the 20 ranked agencies) I think very few people will put their money where their mouth is.
The truth is that if you were a business owner in the shoes of 123RF you would probably do the same thing. You would adjust what you pay your suppliers to reflect the competitive marketplace. If your suppliers were gladly selling their wares for far less money to your competition, wouldn't you hold their feet to the fire? Of course, you wouldn't want to risk losing those that were supplying your top-selling products... in fact, you might even give those suppliers a raise to reflect how important they were to you. But if suppliers of lower-selling products didn't like your new deal and wanted to walk away, you probably wouldn't feel much pain.
The ball is in our court. I'm just hoping that after Jan 1, people will make their decision and move on. You cut the cord or you decide it's a deal you can live with. Either way, you'll have made a decision and the complaining should stop.
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I think we need to keep something in perspective. If 35 or 40% is so unfair, I'm curious which sites you think treat you so much more fairly? Yes, no one likes getting a cut, but when you're happily submitting to so many other agencies giving you well under 40%, how long can you expect 123RF to ignore this competition and continue paying you 50%?...
It's not about the rate, but about the cut.
I make more (by a lot) at DT each month which pays me a lower percentage than 123rf. What blows is that you sign up based on one set of terms and then they change. 123rf is not the first to move the goal posts, but given their low prices, with a decent rate and halfway decent volume, their monthly numbers were promising.
Not to mention the problem that as sites start decreasing contributor returns, we have an added incentive to look elsewhere, and the relative attractiveness of even low paying sites increases.
If you don't like the complaining, don't read the thread. I'll stop complaining when I no longer have anything about which to complain
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I hope they don't go through with the cut because it will have such a negative affect on so many people.
That said, my sales have gone up considerably on 123 the past couple of months. October was my BME there, and very nearly double what they were a year ago.
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I think they are not in the same position as IS, FT or DT when they did cut commissions. 123RF just does not provide a significant amount of total monthly earnings to keep on supporting them when they stick to their plan.
I dropped Istock when they did cut their already miserable commissions below 20% and I will drop 123RF when they go through with their plan.
I don't need the money to pay my bills, so it's an easy decision. A lot harder to do for those who make a living with microstock.
And no, I don't expect they will miss me. I won't miss them either.
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They were the first company who put their thumbnails large size in Google images search. I think while there were alone they get really good traffic but last year other companies also started to put their thumbnails Google's large size. I dont think they can get traffic from there like before.
They need to rethink their growing policy and change with the realistic one.
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I agree with JSNOVER. When I signed up with 123RF it was with the understanding that I would be paid a certain rate if I contributed to their agency. If they're going to set "new terms" then apply it to new contributors in January when things take effect. Don't punish me. I've worked long and hard on a portfolio that has contributed to their success. Their attitude appears to be "Hey....forget what I offered you when you signed up. We've decided to move the goal posts and if you don't like it....tough!"
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They better offer payouts on December 31 whether minimums are met or not.
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I left last month after verifying with them that they would be cutting commissions in January. I had just made payout, and I didn't want to accumulate money that I wouldn't be able to ever get if I waited until January to leave.
At my new rate, they would have been the lowest paying site of any of the video sites I contribute to (in $, obviously not in %), all the while being the lowest selling. Not a good combo. And, of course, I felt particularly cheated having just signed up for them last January, on the promise of getting 50%.
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They have NEVER paid 50%. They give away promotional credits like senior citizens with Almond Joy mini bars on Halloween. They deduct that from the purchase price, then they give you 50% of what's left. Do some research, check your commissions. It's never been a good deal.
-Mat
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They have NEVER paid 50%. They give away promotional credits like senior citizens with Almond Joy mini bars on Halloween. They deduct that from the purchase price, then they give you 50% of what's left. Do some research, check your commissions. It's never been a good deal.
-Mat
YAY FT YAY!
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They have NEVER paid 50%. They give away promotional credits like senior citizens with Almond Joy mini bars on Halloween. They deduct that from the purchase price, then they give you 50% of what's left. Do some research, check your commissions. It's never been a good deal.
-Mat
YAY FT YAY!
:) :) :)
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Something else we have no info on as far as I can tell - what is an LEL license worth with their RC system? This license isn't even listed, although it is available to certain clients (i sold one in October). So what do we get for those?
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I think we need to keep something in perspective. If 35 or 40% is so unfair, I'm curious which sites you think treat you so much more fairly? Yes, no one likes getting a cut, but when you're happily submitting to so many other agencies giving you well under 40%, how long can you expect 123RF to ignore this competition and continue paying you 50%?
By all means, if you're angry about the cut, exercise your anger by dropping your accounts at 123RF. But given their position in the poll results (look at the list on the right... they're currently #5 of the 20 ranked agencies) I think very few people will put their money where their mouth is.
The truth is that if you were a business owner in the shoes of 123RF you would probably do the same thing. You would adjust what you pay your suppliers to reflect the competitive marketplace. If your suppliers were gladly selling their wares for far less money to your competition, wouldn't you hold their feet to the fire? Of course, you wouldn't want to risk losing those that were supplying your top-selling products... in fact, you might even give those suppliers a raise to reflect how important they were to you. But if suppliers of lower-selling products didn't like your new deal and wanted to walk away, you probably wouldn't feel much pain.
The ball is in our court. I'm just hoping that after Jan 1, people will make their decision and move on. You cut the cord or you decide it's a deal you can live with. Either way, you'll have made a decision and the complaining should stop.
I only signed up this year knowing this was coming so it’s not even about the cut. The problem is that volumes are very low compared to the top 4, prices are rock bottom and now the commissions will be rock bottom also. This will be fine for the established folks who keep what they have but very unattractive for anyone new. Critically, the subs rate for the small guy will be abysmal and, coupled with tiny volumes it won’t be worth the effort of unloading even given the painless mechanism and almost 100% acceptance. IS PP is currently making double what I get from 123 with 10% of the port.
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Low RPD with high volumes is acceptable, low RPD with low volumes is not.
I totally agree, and I used to be a big cheerleader for 123RF, but I think they've completely missed this point from the contributor's perspective. I think they will either lose a lot of images from their database or a lot of fresh uploads over this, and they really need to stop and think about it.
It's killed my enthusiasm for them stone dead. Sorry to say. But they've been so decent in the past that I keep crossing my fingers and hoping they'll see the light on this one.
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Critically, the subs rate for the small guy will be abysmal
To me this is the worst part - the subs rate will be the lowest in the industry and totally unacceptable at 22 cents to start. It seems they don't care and are determined to go through with this. If they had stuck with their original plan to grandfather in the previous rates there would be no complaints. I will see what rate I will be at after the change and most likely will stop submitting there in protest (not that they will notice). At those low rates there certainly will be no incentive for new people to join or contribute.
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Agreed. The subscription rates are too low for the majority of contributors to be considered acceptable. While I concur with Jo Ann that moving the goal posts is going to be viewed as a negative, I don't have a huge problem with commission %'s in the 35-40 range. But the subscription commissions are ridiculous and I fully plan to pull my portfolio sometime in December or January.
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Having only 127 photos on 123RF , the decision is simple:
Stop uploading there, portfolio will stay at 127 photos forever.
I just don't like being treated like that!
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the fact that 123 hasn't chimed in is our answer. It's gonna happen. Why? Greed. They saw that Istock got away with it so why not. They saw brilliance in IS's move and simply replicated the model. What's next? Pay to upload?
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Having only 127 photos on 123RF , the decision is simple:
Stop uploading there, portfolio will stay at 127 photos forever.
I just don't like being treated like that!
I haven't uploaded there since they announced this scheme. I continue to earn from what I've already uploaded (which is a nice sign) but to the extent that they sell subscriptions, they need new content to keep continuing subscribers happy.
123rf is a small enough agency that I think it's possible we could - if enough people wanted to pressure them - change their mind by withholding new content from them. All the other agencies will have new content they won't have. Subscribers would be less likely to renew. We get to make reasonable money from what we've already uploaded, at least for a while.
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...my sales have gone up considerably on 123 the past couple of months. October was my BME there, and very nearly double what they were a year ago.
Same here. It's just frustrating because we're seeing growth, and then the rug will get yanked out from under us and our rates will be cut. I don't understand how these companies expect to remain in business years from now when they take back every gain contributors see. Forget about cuts, we can't even maintain past earnings at some of these companies. And the ones like 123RF who are showing gains just take those gains back for themselves.
I can make a living in this business right now. Will I still be able to in 5 or 10 years when costs of living continue to rapidly increase, I continue to work, but my income doesn't increase because these companies keep taking money back from us? I doubt it.
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I stopped uploading a few months ago. They aren't worth it for the money they make. This cutting commissions policy doesn't seem to of worked for istock, FT and DT. They can get away with it to a certain extent because leaving them would hurt but 123rf could get in to serious trouble. If I do see a cut in earnings, it wont hurt to leave them.
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i think we should keep this thread alive and active and all the more so as December rolls around....
I think there was a big enough backlash last year that made them postpone their plans, so why cant we unite to voice our discontent for the new pricing proposal, and take decisive action if necessary to hopefully help them stop going through with this preposterous scheme?
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I stopped uploading a few months ago. They aren't worth it for the money they make. This cutting commissions policy doesn't seem to of worked for istock, FT and DT. They can get away with it to a certain extent because leaving them would hurt but 123rf could get in to serious trouble. If I do see a cut in earnings, it wont hurt to leave them.
...same here, stopped uloads.
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They are my #3 earning site but that's going to change if they follow through with the commission change. My only growth in sales is in direct correlation to the number of files I added this year. 50% more growth and 50% more files in my portfolio. I didn't stop uploading when they announced the planned changes because I knew my portfolio was small and I was working to increase my number of files. I was giving the site a chance to follow through on their promised growth for downloads while I worked on increasing uploads. Figured I needed to have more files online to give them a fair chance. Now it's time to reassess things. They need to show me why it's worth my while to continue uploading.
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I don't feel the commission cutting strategy worked very well for either IS or FT. A lot of contributors stopped uploading to both sites, some pulled their ports entirely, and many more exclusives went independent.
When FT was making these moves, there were plenty of people on this board who were convinced FT would soon be the #1 microstock agency. Now they are barely in the Top 4 of our poll. IS used to be neck and neck with SS. Now the poll results suggest they bring in half of what SS brings in.
Obviously there have been egregious missteps beyond just how the companies treated its contributors. But the bottom line to me is that they aren't getting away with it. Market share is being lost.
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I have got enough downloads but don't have the 150 photos accepted. I better start submitting.
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I was wondering how I would be fixed when the new structure comes in but can't find the details anywhere. From memory, it was detailed when logging in but now I just see the existing arrangements - wonder if there is a mind change??? :-\
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I was wondering how I would be fixed when the new structure comes in but can't find the details anywhere. From memory, it was detailed when logging in but now I just see the existing arrangements - wonder if there is a mind change??? :-\
No such luck. It is still under the captch page.
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I don't understand how these companies expect to remain in business years from now...
No one in the ownership or management of any of these agencies ever thinks about "years from now". You might as well ask them about the prospects for interstellar travel. They want to make money next week - that's the extent of it.
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I stopped uploading a few months ago. They aren't worth it for the money they make. This cutting commissions policy doesn't seem to of worked for istock, FT and DT. They can get away with it to a certain extent because leaving them would hurt but 123rf could get in to serious trouble. If I do see a cut in earnings, it wont hurt to leave them.
interesting.. they make more than fotolia and DT for me :)
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I was wondering how I would be fixed when the new structure comes in but can't find the details anywhere. From memory, it was detailed when logging in but now I just see the existing arrangements - wonder if there is a mind change??? :-\
No such luck. It is still under the captch page.
>:( yeah, captcha not required for login but there it was when i went to check earnings...
ah well, might think again if they at least roll back on the subs element but no uploads in 2013 & port removal shortly after unless there is a massive increase (at least double) in dl nos. If a lot of the small contributors bale the commission cuts will not result in increased profits.