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Microstock Photography Forum - General => General Stock Discussion => Topic started by: Leo Blanchette on September 12, 2013, 04:44

Title: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Leo Blanchette on September 12, 2013, 04:44
How many of you more successful microstock players have not given Symbiostock a chance yet?

Who wants to know how much money Symbiostock has made me as a developer? Not as much as you might think. Yet my site www.clipartillustration.com (http://www.clipartillustration.com) is like old faithful, with almost daily sales. Sometimes some very large ones over $100, and in the "glory days" it did $1000+ when I sold a collection every few months on top of regular sales. Sadly with my dedication to this project, I haven't been able to redo my collections except a few of them. And regarding "hired" work that my website was responsible for...I had been rescued a long time ago from the decline of microstock.

Symbiostock, by comparison, has made me very little as a developer in consideration of the size of the network. Even with the release of the "Premium" version, the earnings were enough to slightly redeem me from 6 months of working virtually free. This is for the simple reason that Symbiostock is engineered to require little investment, and give returns immediately. Former microstockers need an advantage like that.

This project was born by necessity when it became apparent just how badly contributors were getting exploited (directly inspired by the Google/Getty deal). Personally I've enjoyed the ability to make a living doing what I love, and being home with the ones I love. I didn't want to see that end. Its not hard to see why a group of people (the Symbiostockers) could invest so much time and energy into bringing this thing to life. No doubt they feel the same. This project succeeded largely due to them.

At this point I don't think there is much more that I can do, since developing this thing has burned me out thoroughly. I'm crawling through the days now, and every bit I put into this project is forced and not like my starting energy 8 months ago. Its time for some fresh energy and fresh inspiration. Dare I say, even development should be taken from me! Symbiostock is an idea, and a brand. Anyone is welcome to add their own elements and strategies.

I'd like to put out a call for microstock's biggest contributors to start joining in, as I believe this will be the final step in making the network replace the former agents we had invested so much of our work into, just to have it virtually given away. We own the "assets", why not the websites too?

I believe this will "tip the scales" and bring this project the rest of the way.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: gillian vann on September 12, 2013, 05:46
I'm not a big player but I do want to set up my own site. But I'm moving house soon (not just house, 2000km across the country to another state), followed by a large renovation project - my life is crazy. I suspect I won't have time to seriously look into it until 2014.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Shelma1 on September 12, 2013, 07:08
I'm not a big player either. I haven't joined symbiostock yet because it seems like a lot of work, I don't have a handle on whether the return on time investment is worth it, and I see a lot of threads about bugs. That concerns me, because the big stock companies have (in the case of is, incompetent) IT departments in place to handle that sort of thing (one hopes).

I think step one, you need testimonials here from Symbiostockers who can attest to the ease and $$$ of using Symbiotsock.

I think it's an awesome idea. I see that you've worked very hard on it. I want to join, but I'm afraid my time investment won't pay off in the end. I think the hurdle is convincing people the time investment will be worth it. And people (well me, anyway) wonder who will "run" things when bugs pop up? Who will pay for advertising? The big stock agencies have big time ad agencies and PR firms.

I think the big players probably have a lot of questions.

But most of all I think you need to take a couple of weeks off and get some sleep!
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Ron on September 12, 2013, 07:16
There are relatively no bugs. What you see is a lot of people customizing their site running into errors, as they are rewriting the code, or needing help because they dont know how to activate something. I didnt do any customization and never experienced any bugs. Straight from the box is a working solution. Yes, it needs a lot of time uploading your portfolio and SEOing, but its worth it. Once its up and running its just like submitting to an agency. And probably even faster then a lot of agencies, except for 123, CanStockPhoto ,SS, and GL
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Beppe Grillo on September 12, 2013, 07:48
Not a big player too.
I am thinking seriously about Symbiostock, but I think that it is better to start is with an enough big portfolio (that I have not yet).
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Mantis on September 12, 2013, 07:51
I am very interested as well but am not much of a techie. I would have to find someone to set it up for me, at least the coding/design part, then I could be taught to upload, etc.  I think!!
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Shelma1 on September 12, 2013, 09:07
There are relatively no bugs. What you see is a lot of people customizing their site running into errors, as they are rewriting the code, or needing help because they dont know how to activate something. I didnt do any customization and never experienced any bugs. Straight from the box is a working solution. Yes, it needs a lot of time uploading your portfolio and SEOing, but its worth it. Once its up and running its just like submitting to an agency. And probably even faster then a lot of agencies, except for 123, CanStockPhoto ,SS, and GL

Perhaps it's worth it to try kickstarter or the like so the OP can be compensated for all his hard work...and there might be a budget for advertising? Just an idea.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: melastmohican on September 12, 2013, 09:31
I do not want pay for hosting when end result is uncertain (based on few random sites claiming sales). If I got option to host on free cloud platform like Amazon S3, Google App Engine or Heroku I would give it a try. And "big guns" most likely are doing well without Symbiostock.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: grsphoto on September 12, 2013, 09:55
Catch 22....... Symbiostock will not be able to generate large consistent sales until it has a large number of sites.  People will not join until Symbiostock can show it can generate sales.   :)

I look at my Symbiostock sites as a long term investment, that will take time to generate a return.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: stockmarketer on September 12, 2013, 10:00
Maybe I'm a "big player"... I dunno... from various numbers I've seen, I think I'm in the top one hundred or so.

I am still waiting to see evidence that people are getting regular sales.  For me to be worth it, I would need to see at least 5 to 10 sales a day, and based on what I've seen so far, the early adopter Sy sites just haven't built momentum yet.

Still watching and waiting...
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: melastmohican on September 12, 2013, 10:08
Free to join is a key. People jump on every new agency cause it only cost them few hours to upload some pictures and little wait to see if they got result.  Even if hosting is under $50/yr most of the site will not generate this kind of money in this early stage. Additional barrier to entry is setup and maintenance of the site, not everybody want to invest their time. That's why I mentioned free cloud platforms where almost everything is done by provider. In addition to that if your site starts generating traffic and money it would automatically scale to paid solution.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cthoman on September 12, 2013, 10:15
Maybe I'm a "big player"... I dunno... from various numbers I've seen, I think I'm in the top one hundred or so.

I am still waiting to see evidence that people are getting regular sales.  For me to be worth it, I would need to see at least 5 to 10 sales a day, and based on what I've seen so far, the early adopter Sy sites just haven't built momentum yet.

Still watching and waiting...

That's a pretty lofty goal. I'd make $2400-$4800 (at least) a month if I sold that many images.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Jo Ann Snover on September 12, 2013, 10:47
If I was happy with the microstock agencies, there's no way I'd spend the time to set up my own site. What tipped the scales for me (and I'm not done setting up my own site yet, but it is open for business while I'm working on it; I've had one sale of which I kept $19.12 of the $20 the buyer paid) was that I'm heartily disgusted with how the agencies are behaving and see no prospect that they'll change how they treat contributors any time soon.

I already had hosting and a couple of web sites on it, so there wasn't really any incremental cost for me - other than my time - to set up a sales site.

I'm not an expert in WordPress or setting up web sites, but I figured it wasn't a bad thing to get better at that as I may be able to use the skills later on.

I can't imagine how there will be a "free and easy" option for those who aren't up for setting up their own site, but the beauty of the network is that if someone does set up one of those, it can easily join with the other independent artist sites.

I think it'd be great if more people joined, but there's a chicken-and-egg situation if everyone waits for everyone else to make money before joining :)
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: stockastic on September 12, 2013, 11:14
I've paid no attention to Symbiostock so far and all I know is it's some sort of software package for creating your own stock site that is in some way part of a cooperative networkd. 

I'm a former software engineer and, in theory, should be able to manage my part of such a project and maybe even contribute something to the code base.  But I pretty much burned out on software and don't want to spend much time on it.  I've been waiting for Symbiostock to reach the point of being operational and working before checking it out.  It seems like maybe that point has been reached. 

On the subject of getting new and bigger players on board, I have 2 observations/suggestions. I am speaking only for myself here, based on my experience as a developer who sometimes made commerical use of open source software.

1.   There would have to be a single, comprehensive, clear and up-to-date overview document explaining what Symbiostock is and how it works.  It's no good telling new users to 'read the forum threads' or 'post any questions here'. 


2.   After some bitter experiences where I wasted a lot of time on open source packages that turned out to be dead ends, I decided not to use any open source that had no current, active development or support.   Before using an open source project I'd scan online forums for recent activity.  If I didn't find any, I wouldn't use the code.  I had too many experiences where I ended up needing to find and fix the proverbial "last bug" in a large software project that I didn't understand.

 
I am not (at all) saying that Symbiostock wouldn't meet these criteria, because I haven't even looked at it.  Just offering my 2 cents on what I think it takes to pull new people in to a cooperative software project, which is sort of what this is. 


Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Ron on September 12, 2013, 11:18
@melastmohican - I made 60 dollar in two months

@Stocktastic - agree with point 1, point 2 is covered already http://www.symbiostock.org/ (http://www.symbiostock.org/)
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: m@m on September 12, 2013, 11:31
How many of you more successful microstock players have not given Symbiostock a chance yet?

Who wants to know how much money Symbiostock has made me as a developer? Not as much as you might think. Yet my site [url=http://www.clipartillustration.com]www.clipartillustration.com[/url] ([url]http://www.clipartillustration.com[/url]) is like old faithful, with almost daily sales. Sometimes some very large ones over $100, and in the "glory days" it did $1000+ when I sold a collection every few months on top of regular sales. Sadly with my dedication to this project, I haven't been able to redo my collections except a few of them. And regarding "hired" work that my website was responsible for...I had been rescued a long time ago from the decline of microstock.

Symbiostock, by comparison, has made me very little as a developer in consideration of the size of the network. Even with the release of the "Premium" version, the earnings were enough to slightly redeem me from 6 months of working virtually free. This is for the simple reason that Symbiostock is engineered to require little investment, and give returns immediately. Former microstockers need an advantage like that.

This project was born by necessity when it became apparent just how badly contributors were getting exploited (directly inspired by the Google/Getty deal). Personally I've enjoyed the ability to make a living doing what I love, and being home with the ones I love. I didn't want to see that end. Its not hard to see why a group of people (the Symbiostockers) could invest so much time and energy into bringing this thing to life. No doubt they feel the same. This project succeeded largely due to them.

At this point I don't think there is much more that I can do, since developing this thing has burned me out thoroughly. I'm crawling through the days now, and every bit I put into this project is forced and not like my starting energy 8 months ago. Its time for some fresh energy and fresh inspiration. Dare I say, even development should be taken from me! Symbiostock is an idea, and a brand. Anyone is welcome to add their own elements and strategies.

I'd like to put out a call for microstock's biggest contributors to start joining in, as I believe this will be the final step in making the network replace the former agents we had invested so much of our work into, just to have it virtually given away. We own the "assets", why not the websites too?

I believe this will "tip the scales" and bring this project the rest of the way.


I guess we're back to the Symbiostock spam again on this forum?...enough is enough!!!...if this does not change I think is time to stop being a member of this forum.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cthoman on September 12, 2013, 11:33
I guess we're back to the Symbiostock spam again on this forum?...enough is enough!!!...if this does not change I think is time to stop being a member of this forum.

Does one thread miscategorized really constitute spam?
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: m@m on September 12, 2013, 11:44
I think that by naming the thread anything else than (related to Symbiostock) is misleading, and yes I think the intention was for the thread to be miscategorized for the purpose of spamming...
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: stockastic on September 12, 2013, 11:56
I think that by naming the thread anything else than (related to Symbiostock) is misleading, and yes I think the intention was for the thread to be miscategorized for the purpose of spamming...

I'd say the point of the thread was to reach people who weren't currently into Symbiostock,  so  it makes sense to have that thread in the microstock area.   
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: m@m on September 12, 2013, 12:11
And what would you call trying to reach people to join a site thru an open forum with the misleading title "A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?" ;)
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: luissantos84 on September 12, 2013, 12:14
Maybe I'm a "big player"... I dunno... from various numbers I've seen, I think I'm in the top one hundred or so.

I am still waiting to see evidence that people are getting regular sales.  For me to be worth it, I would need to see at least 5 to 10 sales a day, and based on what I've seen so far, the early adopter Sy sites just haven't built momentum yet.

Still watching and waiting...

the minute you join people will know who you are and your portfolio ;D
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Shelma1 on September 12, 2013, 12:30
Tell you what. I'm a creative director and copywriter in the real world. If a group of Symbiostockers could chime in and give me the details about Symbiostock and how it works, benefits for artists/end users, I could take a shot at writing a nice description for everyone. I suggest either a new thread or private messages so we don't clutter up the forum.

Anyone interested?
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: chromaco on September 12, 2013, 12:31
How many of you more successful microstock players have not given Symbiostock a chance yet?

Who wants to know how much money Symbiostock has made me as a developer? Not as much as you might think. Yet my site [url=http://www.clipartillustration.com]www.clipartillustration.com[/url] ([url]http://www.clipartillustration.com[/url]) is like old faithful, with almost daily sales. Sometimes some very large ones over $100, and in the "glory days" it did $1000+ when I sold a collection every few months on top of regular sales. Sadly with my dedication to this project, I haven't been able to redo my collections except a few of them. And regarding "hired" work that my website was responsible for...I had been rescued a long time ago from the decline of microstock.

Symbiostock, by comparison, has made me very little as a developer in consideration of the size of the network. Even with the release of the "Premium" version, the earnings were enough to slightly redeem me from 6 months of working virtually free. This is for the simple reason that Symbiostock is engineered to require little investment, and give returns immediately. Former microstockers need an advantage like that.

This project was born by necessity when it became apparent just how badly contributors were getting exploited (directly inspired by the Google/Getty deal). Personally I've enjoyed the ability to make a living doing what I love, and being home with the ones I love. I didn't want to see that end. Its not hard to see why a group of people (the Symbiostockers) could invest so much time and energy into bringing this thing to life. No doubt they feel the same. This project succeeded largely due to them.

At this point I don't think there is much more that I can do, since developing this thing has burned me out thoroughly. I'm crawling through the days now, and every bit I put into this project is forced and not like my starting energy 8 months ago. Its time for some fresh energy and fresh inspiration. Dare I say, even development should be taken from me! Symbiostock is an idea, and a brand. Anyone is welcome to add their own elements and strategies.

I'd like to put out a call for microstock's biggest contributors to start joining in, as I believe this will be the final step in making the network replace the former agents we had invested so much of our work into, just to have it virtually given away. We own the "assets", why not the websites too?

I believe this will "tip the scales" and bring this project the rest of the way.


I guess we're back to the Symbiostock spam again on this forum?...enough is enough!!!...if this does not change I think is time to stop being a member of this forum.


I agree - lets get this forum back to an endless number of posts complaining about Istock and 48 pages of Yuri. That seems to a much more productive use of my MSG time!
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: KB on September 12, 2013, 12:35
And what would you call trying to reach people to join a site thru an open forum with the misleading title "A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?" ;)
Not necessarily mis-leading. I knew (or assumed) what the title was referring to when I saw it. And I still am reading the thread, specifically because I've hidden other Symbiostock threads and I wanted to see what was going on.

If you don't like the thread, you don't have to read it.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: lisafx on September 12, 2013, 12:46
I am very interested as well but am not much of a techie. I would have to find someone to set it up for me, at least the coding/design part, then I could be taught to upload, etc.  I think!!

This is exactly my situation.  I would love to join, but having invested a couple of grand setting up my Ktools site and seeing hardly any return on that, I don't have the inclination to do it again.  (not to mention I already used my domain name on the ktools site)

I lack the skills to set the site up myself (although some very nice folks here have offered guidance) and don't want to invest the money to pay someone else to do it.  Not to mention the time involved.  I have a lot of personal and health related demands on my time right now.  Until/unless I was convinced there would be significant rewards, setting up a symbiostock site has to remain low on my priority list. 

Oh, and FWIW, I have NO PROBLEM with this thread being outside the symbio forum.  I don't read the symbiostock forum and would not have seen this thread otherwise.  One thread hardly constitutes "clutter". 
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Ron on September 12, 2013, 12:46
Tell you what. I'm a creative director and copywriter in the real world. If a group of Symbiostockers could chime in and give me the details about Symbiostock and how it works, benefits for artists/end users, I could take a shot at writing a nice description for everyone. I suggest either a new thread or private messages so we don't clutter up the forum.

Anyone interested?
Thank you Shelma, much appreciated, I posted a link to you post on the Symbiostock platform. I am sure someone will get in touch with you. I really think we should take you up on your offer. Thanks again.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Shelma1 on September 12, 2013, 12:51
Tell you what. I'm a creative director and copywriter in the real world. If a group of Symbiostockers could chime in and give me the details about Symbiostock and how it works, benefits for artists/end users, I could take a shot at writing a nice description for everyone. I suggest either a new thread or private messages so we don't clutter up the forum.

Anyone interested?

Ok, I joined the forums on Symbiostock.org...see you there!
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: stockmarketer on September 12, 2013, 12:59
Maybe I'm a "big player"... I dunno... from various numbers I've seen, I think I'm in the top one hundred or so.

I am still waiting to see evidence that people are getting regular sales.  For me to be worth it, I would need to see at least 5 to 10 sales a day, and based on what I've seen so far, the early adopter Sy sites just haven't built momentum yet.

Still watching and waiting...

the minute you join people will know who you are and your portfolio ;D

Good point, Luis.  You probably just talked me out of this for good.

This will be a HUGE hurdle for Symbiostock to overcome if it wants the big players on board.  Most of the big players remain anonymous because they don't want to tip their hands to everyone else and see their work copied. 

Symbiostock would have to promise an ENORMOUS payday to make it worth the risk.  So far, there appears to be close to 0% of that happening, so those of us who wish to remain behind the scenes and keep the spotlight off our ideas and techniques won't be inclined to join.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: luissantos84 on September 12, 2013, 13:05
Maybe I'm a "big player"... I dunno... from various numbers I've seen, I think I'm in the top one hundred or so.

I am still waiting to see evidence that people are getting regular sales.  For me to be worth it, I would need to see at least 5 to 10 sales a day, and based on what I've seen so far, the early adopter Sy sites just haven't built momentum yet.

Still watching and waiting...

the minute you join people will know who you are and your portfolio ;D

Good point, Luis.  You probably just talked me out of this for good.

This will be a HUGE hurdle for Symbiostock to overcome if it wants the big players on board.  Most of the big players remain anonymous because they don't want to tip their hands to everyone else and see their work copied. 

Symbiostock would have to promise an ENORMOUS payday to make it worth the risk.  So far, there appears to be close to 0% of that happening, so those of us who wish to remain behind the scenes and keep the spotlight off our ideas and techniques won't be inclined to join.

in fact, we can have an idea of who you are, top 100 like you said and for sure a few pictures we seen many times featured and on most popular so if anybody is willing to copy will copy but yes telling what is your portfolio will make it even easier ;D
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cthoman on September 12, 2013, 13:13
Until/unless I was convinced there would be significant rewards, setting up a symbiostock site has to remain low on my priority list.

This was the conclusion I came too. I'm not convinced it would outperform what I have now, so it didn't seem like the best investment of time, energy, money, etc. I'm keeping an eye on it though.


This will be a HUGE hurdle for Symbiostock to overcome if it wants the big players on board.  Most of the big players remain anonymous because they don't want to tip their hands to everyone else and see their work copied. 

Symbiostock would have to promise an ENORMOUS payday to make it worth the risk.  So far, there appears to be close to 0% of that happening, so those of us who wish to remain behind the scenes and keep the spotlight off our ideas and techniques won't be inclined to join.

I'm not sure I understand this. Does anybody really hide in the shadows on the micro sites?
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: grsphoto on September 12, 2013, 13:19

Symbiostock would have to promise an ENORMOUS payday to make it worth the risk.  So far, there appears to be close to 0% of that happening, so those of us who wish to remain behind the scenes and keep the spotlight off our ideas and techniques won't be inclined to join.

How do you sell/ promote your images without letting people see them?

Is there some way to hide your port on SS, IS..etc?

I really don't understand what the risk is in setting up your own site?
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: fotoVoyager on September 12, 2013, 14:10
I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:

http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/ (http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/)

it doesn't look great, even if the underlying functionality and 'symbiosis' idea of artists sharing data is miles ahead of everything else.

We're selling in a visual field to design professionals and the vehicle for supplying our images needs to reflect that. I think that's why iStock succeeded so well in the beginning, because it looks like it's by designers for designers, whereas ShutterStock and Dreamstime looked like a programmer had done the layout (I realise they've been reworked since). Designers are a very picky bunch.

I really am very impressed with the efforts and teamwork that have taken Symbiostock this far - but you've got to make it look professional to attract professionals I think. Does that sound familiar?

I'll just apologise here in advance to those that disagree.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: chromaco on September 12, 2013, 14:58
I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:

[url]http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/[/url] ([url]http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/[/url])

it doesn't look great, even if the underlying functionality and 'symbiosis' idea of artists sharing data is miles ahead of everything else.



You're not entirely wrong about the aesthetics. However, I do think you can do just about anything you want if you know how to do it. The really great part about symbiostock is that you can be like me and know absolutely nothing about coding and still have a nice looking functional website that sells for the cost of about $100 and 10-12 hours worth of work. Uploading is about the same effort and time as the micros.

The thing that most people don't get is that symbiostock is not an agency. It is a way to create your own site with awesome seo and networking. If you are really motivated you could hire someone to modify the child theme to look as professional as you like. I will probably do this somewhere down the road but for now I am making sales with very little investment.

You should not think of your symbiostock site as a replacement for the micros. Instead it is more like adding another microstock agency where you control the pricing and get 100% of the pay. Some micro sites look better than others and some of the less "professional ones" sell better than some of the bigger ones. At least for me.

For me it is more of an "and" situation rather than a "or". My symbiostock site "and" the micros so to speak.
My site is just another way for customers to buy my images and will probably fall somewhere between DT and DP in the earnings poll for September.




Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Jo Ann Snover on September 12, 2013, 15:14
I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:

[url]http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/[/url] ([url]http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/[/url])

it doesn't look great, even if the underlying functionality and 'symbiosis' idea of artists sharing data is miles ahead of everything else.

We're selling in a visual field to design professionals and the vehicle for supplying our images needs to reflect that. I think that's why iStock succeeded so well in the beginning, because it looks like it's by designers for designers, whereas ShutterStock and Dreamstime looked like a programmer had done the layout (I realise they've been reworked since). Designers are a very picky bunch.

I really am very impressed with the efforts and teamwork that have taken Symbiostock this far - but you've got to make it look professional to attract professionals I think. Does that sound familiar?

I'll just apologise here in advance to those that disagree.


I think the visual look is very important too. You will see many different appearances from the different sites though.

Clearly I've made my site look the way I think it should (and someone commented the other day that I had apparently spent a lot of time on how things look). I started with an add-on theme that Amanda sells because I thought it looked better than the default child theme. I believe she has another paid theme in the works.

The network is a loose confederation of sites though, and as such isn't going to enforce a particular look and feel. I suspect that in some ways the alternative look may help answer the question about why you might buy from a network of artists versus an agency where there's a lot more uniformity.

No apologies necessary for expressing an opinion, but I think the part you're missing is that Symbiostock isn't an "it" (as in "...the ugliness of it") but a "them" where we're a heterogeneous network not a homogenous one.

And if buyers hate my site design, they'll probably hate my images too, so not much lost :)
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Kerioak~Christine on September 12, 2013, 15:20
I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:


Most of us ARE amateurs at web design and if a graphic designer happened along who wanted to help out with some constructive help I doubt anyone would say no.

You could display your pictures almost anyway you wished, nearly everything is editable if you know what you are doing or are willing to experiment
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: olliemt on September 12, 2013, 15:22
VotoVoyger, have you checked out the  http://www.symbiothemes.com/product/clean-theme-for-symbiostock/ (http://www.symbiothemes.com/product/clean-theme-for-symbiostock/)

Worth a look mate if not.

I started setting up my site in April, then I had a change of full time job, one of the closest people to me pass away unexpectedly, and various other set backs, however im back now and will be back on the forums as I need help, especially as the day job is taking over 60 hours a week at the min.

Im a small fish in the microstock world, although some of my accounts like istock have been going a long time, I always send the agencies the stuff that I don’t market rights managed myself, which is only about 80% of my work, leaving 20% going to agencies.  Im going travelling for a few years next winter so that will change & I will loose my UK specific clientèle.

Symbiostock seemed a no brainer, there are loads of different ways to host stock but the networking idea was what swung it for me as you offer a varied product, although whoever is in your network needs to understand how to market them self and the product (symbiostock as a whole), it wont sell itself. 

If people in your network just sit back and think sales will just accumulate by magic, there wrong.

Anyway, my symbiosite looks like **** at the min, as im working 60 hours a week on the day job at the min (cash needed for travel), so my site will be a few months off; but I would like to start looking for people to network with.

My portfolio will be predominantly south coast UK at the min.
Over the next year I will be adding:

Channel Islands
Scilly Islands
More Scotland & Wales
More Sicily
Brittany - France

2014 – 2015:

Austria
Italy
Croatia
Montenegro
Albania
Macedonia
Greece
Romania

2016 -2017:

More Iceland
Canada
New Zealand
Philippines
Australia
Japan
China

Im looking for travel & landscape to network with from alternate places:

Especially North & South America.

(sorry, I know this should have been on symbio forum, but most you guys are prob networked)

www.ollietaylorphotography.com (http://www.ollietaylorphotography.com)

Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Travelling-light on September 12, 2013, 15:36
Really interesting comments from fotovoyager.

I'm finding it hard to understand why anyone would say "it" looks ugly. As others have said, everyone has their own site, with their own design - anyone can make their site look any way they wish.

If fotovoyager hasn't understood this, does this mean that microstockers in general haven't understood this?

I'd be really interested to hear more from FV on the ugliness aspect - have you understood that your site is your own, and can look the way you want it to?

Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Leo Blanchette on September 12, 2013, 15:39
I appreciate the reasonable responses.

One thing I can say quite confidently is that many packages are sold (and for much $$$) on visuals, but they don't have the networking or SEO power that is very essential to the relationship after the quick flare of lusty attraction that hooks you. Its like selling you a beautiful looking sporty car, only to find the engine came from a lawn-mower. Literally. Either some of the more expensive options are scams, or the creators never looked deeper than just making a sale to a photographer. Some of the more elaborate "solutions" are in fact heavily marketed to photographers who are sold on visuals, and you become in effect referral sheep to other equally parasitic business relationships.

So Symbiostock's present need is visuals. In fact, visuals are left because I focused on the engine. Visuals are not very hard. A few days work to someone with experience. The "Metamorphosis" theme which www.clipartillustration.com (http://www.clipartillustration.com) runs on is going to blank-slate everything in such a way that it looks clean and simple, yet allows extendability and is viewable on ALL devices. A modern day standard.

Right now Symbiostock must be seen for what it is - a diamond in the rough. Its proven itself. I think people have to see the situation for what it is  - if you want to depend on people, people will take advantage of you. Photographers are visual people who are sold on visuals. Sometimes looks can be deceiving.

I'm not a marketer and I don't have very lofty goals. I am however a very tired man and an illustrator who saw some serious issues miles in advance. I simply ask others to think as I do. Sometimes we have to leave our comfort zone to find a new comfort zone.

Anyway, from here on I'll be addressing the last few refinements for Symbiostock, but I'm leaving this to grow (as it has) fairly independent of my guidance from here on. I hope people see things for what they are and act with their discretion.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Travelling-light on September 12, 2013, 15:45
Sometimes we have to leave our comfort zone to find a new comfort zone.

Just this. I don't want to wax lyrical, but this is exactly right.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: stockastic on September 12, 2013, 16:00

Right now Symbiostock must be seen for what it is - a diamond in the rough....

I appreciate the honesty but I think you've put your finger on the problem with getting more and bigger players involved. You're telling us you're burned out for now, Symbiostock is what it is and isn't going to be 'completed' any time soon.   Saying that the next round of needed enhancements - i.e. more sophisticated visuals - would be "easy" and just "a few days work" sort of implies that you're walking away, and that time estimate might turn out to be optimistic, especially for someone new.   

For a user like myself, investing serious time in Symbiostock at this point seems like quite an act of faith.

This thing may in fact take off like a rocket, I don't know.  But the world is full of marvelous open source projects that got to 95% complete and remained there forever - to the ultimate frustration of their users...

If I'm off base here,  by all means correct me.

Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Leo Blanchette on September 12, 2013, 16:11

Right now Symbiostock must be seen for what it is - a diamond in the rough....


I appreciate the honesty but I think you've put your finger on the problem with getting more and bigger players involved. You're telling us you're burned out for now, Symbiostock is what it is and isn't going to be 'completed' any time soon.   Saying that the next round of needed enhancements - i.e. more sophisticated visuals - would be "easy" and just "a few days work" sort of implies that you're walking away, and that time estimate might turn out to be optimistic, especially for someone new.   

For a user like myself, investing serious time in Symbiostock at this point seems like quite an act of faith.

This thing may in fact take off like a rocket, I don't know.  But the world is full of marvelous open source projects that got to 95% complete and remained there forever - to the ultimate frustration of their users...

If I'm off base here,  by all means correct me.


Your not off base at all. www.blender.org (http://www.blender.org) is an example of an open source project, needed, that succeeded.

No I'm not walking away. And visuals are best left to people with style. My wife dresses me :D I'm not walking away from an incomplete job by any means...I'm just saying the drywall is up, the wires are in .... now lets get some interior designers and painting crews to work.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Ron on September 12, 2013, 16:15
I appreciate the reasonable responses.

One thing I can say quite confidently is that many packages are sold (and for much $$$) on visuals, but they don't have the networking or SEO power that is very essential to the relationship after the quick flare of lusty attraction that hooks you. Its like selling you a beautiful looking sporty car, only to find the engine came from a lawn-mower. Literally. Either some of the more expensive options are scams, or the creators never looked deeper than just making a sale to a photographer. Some of the more elaborate "solutions" are in fact heavily marketed to photographers who are sold on visuals, and you become in effect referral sheep to other equally parasitic business relationships.

So Symbiostock's present need is visuals. In fact, visuals are left because I focused on the engine. Visuals are not very hard. A few days work to someone with experience. The "Metamorphosis" theme which [url=http://www.clipartillustration.com]www.clipartillustration.com[/url] ([url]http://www.clipartillustration.com[/url]) runs on is going to blank-slate everything in such a way that it looks clean and simple, yet allows extendability and is viewable on ALL devices. A modern day standard.

Right now Symbiostock must be seen for what it is - a diamond in the rough. Its proven itself. I think people have to see the situation for what it is  - if you want to depend on people, people will take advantage of you. Photographers are visual people who are sold on visuals. Sometimes looks can be deceiving.

I'm not a marketer and I don't have very lofty goals. I am however a very tired man and an illustrator who saw some serious issues miles in advance. I simply ask others to think as I do. Sometimes we have to leave our comfort zone to find a new comfort zone.

Anyway, from here on I'll be addressing the last few refinements for Symbiostock, but I'm leaving this to grow (as it has) fairly independent of my guidance from here on. I hope people see things for what they are and act with their discretion.
Not sure if I understand this. I believe the paid Pro version came with support and free upgrades. If you are stepping away from Symbiostock, who is going to do support and the upgrades? Honest question. Thanks.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Leo Blanchette on September 12, 2013, 16:30
Not sure if I understand this. I believe the paid Pro version came with support and free upgrades. If you are stepping away from Symbiostock, who is going to do support and the upgrades? Honest question. Thanks.

Support and free upgrades are there. And I've been supporting and upgrading. Thats my happy place. I like that place.

The thing I'm talking about is growth and the one-man-band thing. Thats what I want to address. [edit] to avoid confusion - I appreciate the help we have, such as the main developers who work on external projects. This is the main thing we need more of that. For instance the "hub" plugin is not something I'm going to do on my own, or at all at this point. The PREMIUM SUSTAINING, support, and upgrades as they are needed ... as they say here in Hawaii "Easy 'kine stuff"
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Ron on September 12, 2013, 16:35
Not sure if I understand this. I believe the paid Pro version came with support and free upgrades. If you are stepping away from Symbiostock, who is going to do support and the upgrades? Honest question. Thanks.

Support and free upgrades are there. And I've been supporting and upgrading. Thats my happy place. I like that place.

The thing I'm talking about is growth and the one-man-band thing. Thats what I want to address. [edit] to avoid confusion - I appreciate the help we have, such as the main developers who work on external projects. This is the main thing we need more of that. For instance the "hub" plugin is not something I'm going to do on my own, or at all at this point. The PREMIUM SUSTAINING, support, and upgrades as they are needed ... as they say here in Hawaii "Easy 'kine stuff"
  I am not saying you wouldnt, I just didnt understand your last post about it. Now I do, so thank you for explaining.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Leo Blanchette on September 12, 2013, 16:40
Just to put everything into a simple statement - there's a "critical mass" thats needed, so the main call here is simply for more Symbiostock sites. And for what its worth, I really don't care if people buy the premium upgrade. I can get more money on animation job for two weeks.

Symbiostock needs to be used and built by people who care about the future of their work. Thats all. I'll be around, but if I'm the one guy keeping up with too many things, then yeah, I won't be around much longer :D

I have a chinese friend here who sells asian snack foods. "Li hing" products, and traditional  stuff. He's the hardest worker I know, and a very humble man. He works to support his family and extended, as the chinese tradition often goes.

He himself told me its not what it looks like. Even though is specialty is asian snack foods, he could not sustain his living on that. He has to constantly adapt to the market or be left behind. His comfort zone is actually not getting comfortable! But its a lot better than being broke, poor, and left behind.

Thats all I'm saying. We need lots of symbiosis in Symbiostock. Workers working together. And  yes, it is that. But we need more of that to really get out of the race to the bottom.

If I'm being too speculative or out of reality here, please call me back to reason!  :)
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cidepix on September 12, 2013, 17:09
Maybe I'm a "big player"... I dunno... from various numbers I've seen, I think I'm in the top one hundred or so.

I am still waiting to see evidence that people are getting regular sales.  For me to be worth it, I would need to see at least 5 to 10 sales a day, and based on what I've seen so far, the early adopter Sy sites just haven't built momentum yet.

Still watching and waiting...

wasting your time dude..

- what I make on symbiostock is more than what I make on bigstock and canstock (or others on their level)
- I keep more than %90 for myself :)

there is no gain without pain.. making more than some agencies is good enough for me.. it's been only a few months.. the world won't be conquered in one day..

what you want is gain without pain..

when we are making 5-10 sales a day, it will be too late for you to jump in.. because every site builds its own reputation and climbing up on google takes time..

sites do not get good traffic on the first day they are launched, unless there is a huge marketing effort going on..
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cidepix on September 12, 2013, 17:25
I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:

[url]http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/[/url] ([url]http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/[/url])

it doesn't look great, even if the underlying functionality and 'symbiosis' idea of artists sharing data is miles ahead of everything else.

We're selling in a visual field to design professionals and the vehicle for supplying our images needs to reflect that. I think that's why iStock succeeded so well in the beginning, because it looks like it's by designers for designers, whereas ShutterStock and Dreamstime looked like a programmer had done the layout (I realise they've been reworked since). Designers are a very picky bunch.

I really am very impressed with the efforts and teamwork that have taken Symbiostock this far - but you've got to make it look professional to attract professionals I think. Does that sound familiar?

I'll just apologise here in advance to those that disagree.


I tried graphpaperpress before and symbiostock is MILES ahead functionality-wise.. no, actually not miles ahead, lightyears ahead..

this is from someone who tried both.. I tried pretty much all the solutions available out there today and the most important aspect of symbiostock is that it functions as good as the best..

don't forget that it is very easy to customize the way it looks.. and you can make it look better than any site..
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: stockastic on September 12, 2013, 17:39
I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:

[url]http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/[/url] ([url]http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/[/url])

it doesn't look great, even if the underlying functionality and 'symbiosis' idea of artists sharing data is miles ahead of everything else.

We're selling in a visual field to design professionals and the vehicle for supplying our images needs to reflect that. I think that's why iStock succeeded so well in the beginning, because it looks like it's by designers for designers, whereas ShutterStock and Dreamstime looked like a programmer had done the layout (I realise they've been reworked since). Designers are a very picky bunch.

I really am very impressed with the efforts and teamwork that have taken Symbiostock this far - but you've got to make it look professional to attract professionals I think. Does that sound familiar?

I'll just apologise here in advance to those that disagree.



Totally agree.

Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cidepix on September 12, 2013, 17:52
I am a designer too and while I agree it could look better, I couldn't let symbiostock grow without me  :D

because;

1 - it's a wordpress theme and I know google loves wordpress.. it's easier to rank higher with WP than other popular solutions such as k-tools and cmsaccount..

2- it has all the essential functions you need..

you can easily modify the look around the functionality and SEO advantages.. that's why the theme comes with a child theme and works well with it.. very easy to upgrade without losing your modifications..

graphpaperpress looked great in the beginning but since we are being honest as designers;

- it lacked almost all the basic functions I wanted.. it's obvious that people who made graphpaperpress know much less about stock business than leo who remembered almost all the fundamental features..
- pain to upload, pain to edit, pain to set up.. I was disappointed in it and my verdict (in a kind way) graphpaperpress is rubbish apart from the looks..

plus, though nice, it looks more like a leaflet, rather than a photostore..

If anybody got the paid version of graphpaperpress, that is "money well burnt" :D
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Leo Blanchette on September 12, 2013, 18:09
I must retract. Sometimes I catch myself in flawed thinking. Its possible having the wrong "big players" would give us big problems. Especially since many of these are used to having things easy.

A very good example is a recent issue where somebody was handed a few advantages so they could say "professionals work with professionals" officially offsetting the damage done by another honest person who stated people's images were being given away by that very same "professional" company. Sometimes the big players are just used as distractions so that hundreds of small ones can make stupid decisions. Unfortunately while symbiostock has much to offer, unfair advantages are not one of those things.

Another thing is by stating we need more "big players" I am really taking away credit from the enormous players that have made Symbiostock, many of whom have humble portfolios. And they are seeing sales finally...so why break our wonderful progress by stupid human social assumptions? 

So again, I retract. Forgive my foolishness, and if needed we can even lock this thread. Symbiostock has new signups every day. Most of them don't even get seen on the main site for a few weeks. Steady and consistent growth eventually makes for a nice tall solid tree, right?

I think the people talking about marketing methods on the .org address are the ones that have it right. If anyone else joins, it will be due to natural growth and progress.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: lisafx on September 12, 2013, 19:25
I must retract. Sometimes I catch myself in flawed thinking. Its possible having the wrong "big players" would give us big problems. Especially since many of these are used to having things easy.

A very good example is a recent issue where somebody was handed a few advantages so they could say "professionals work with professionals" officially offsetting the damage done by another honest person who stated people's images were being given away by that very same "professional" company. Sometimes the big players are just used as distractions so that hundreds of small ones can make stupid decisions. Unfortunately while symbiostock has much to offer, unfair advantages are not one of those things.

Another thing is by stating we need more "big players" I am really taking away credit from the enormous players that have made Symbiostock, many of whom have humble portfolios. And they are seeing sales finally...so why break our wonderful progress by stupid human social assumptions? 

So again, I retract. Forgive my foolishness, and if needed we can even lock this thread. Symbiostock has new signups every day. Most of them don't even get seen on the main site for a few weeks. Steady and consistent growth eventually makes for a nice tall solid tree, right?

I think the people talking about marketing methods on the .org address are the ones that have it right. If anyone else joins, it will be due to natural growth and progress.

Excellent points above, Leo.  I do agree that having divas in any collective effort would cause more problems that they would solve. 

However, I would take issue that anyone who is successful in microstock has "had it easy".  This is a tough business to climb to the top of and everyone who has done it has started at the bottom and worked their ass off way up. 

It's purely a business decision weighing time invested vs. return.  People are bound to come up with different answers to that question. 
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Leo Blanchette on September 12, 2013, 19:32
Yeah I guess your right. There's nothing easy in this business, and everyone's had to work, and it definitely is as you say - just a return on investment of time or money question.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: LesPalenik on September 12, 2013, 19:53
Quote
Steady and consistent growth eventually makes for a nice tall solid tree, right?
Yes, it is important to see the steady and consistent growth. The engine is much smoother and more powerful now than just a few months ago.
Considering the challenges, starting from zero, with a totally new concept, IMO, the Symbiostock growth has been phenomenal.
Volume of online images is growing exponentially, and we are now adding almost 40,000 images per month. That's with 100 contributors.
In six months, the network can easily grow to 250 contributors and 100,000 new images every month.

The big challenge is to let the buyers know about the new world order.

 
 
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Ron on September 13, 2013, 01:21
Quote
Steady and consistent growth eventually makes for a nice tall solid tree, right?
Yes, it is important to see the steady and consistent growth. The engine is much smoother and more powerful now than just a few months ago.
Considering the challenges, starting from zero, with a totally new concept, IMO, the Symbiostock growth has been phenomenal.
Volume of online images is growing exponentially, and we are now adding almost 40,000 images per month. That's with 100 contributors.
In six months, the network can easily grow to 250 contributors and 100,000 new images every month.

The big challenge is to let the buyers know about the new world order. 
LOVE IT !!!  :)
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cidepix on September 13, 2013, 06:22
Leo, you are right to retract..

this thread wasn't actually needed to get the attention of so called "big" players.. what's being offered here should be enough to lure them.. if it's not, then there is nothing we can do..

the network is slowly growing.. in a year time they will come in flocks.. and that's my prophecy  :D
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JoRodrigues on September 17, 2013, 12:42
I signed up to Microstock Group a few months ago through research on Google. This my first post I think. I'd like to point out a few things as what can probably be seen as an outsider looking in since I have mostly read, read, and read some more.

Overall, I like the idea of Symbiostock. I don't like to get screwed by the big (and small) Micro's. I've been taking photos from probably an age 9 or 10 and I'm 44 now. Recently I decided to actually try to earn some revenue from photography and creative related fields with vectors and such. I also like to spread my bases.

Now, let me get to it. I'm a creative person. I'm all about writing and creating. I'm not a salesman. I also loath to read through endless red tape/terms and conditions (and I spent days if not weeks doing just that before starting in Micro Stock). My questions are not about the layouts and the design. I've got enough experience to graphically modify an existing theme. That is nothing new to me.

I've been to Symbiostock and done some reading up while there. Correctly or INcorrectly my first impression is that I must invest. Fine, one cannot just take one must give too. So even though my financial status is very shaky, and we have the unfortunate downside of a weakened currency that is around ZAR10 for every $1, I would invest if I could see the potential for sales that would at least pay my monthly outlay. By potential I mean a way to sell photos since as I have stated before, I am not a salesman. I can have an html gallery of photos on a website within days. That is easy!

What I am looking for are clients. So it makes no sense to spend money on something that I don't see providing me with any real clients. Please note I am not being judgemental. I think I express what others feel towards Symbiostock.

So I pay up the fees, I spend time uploading photos, set up the site... then what? I've now spent money on a static corner of the web. My ego is fairly healthy. I don't need an online gallery for people to oooh and ahh. How do I find the clients or how do they find me? The type that are not cheap and buy my next to nothing $ pictures on iStock and everywhere else? It could be I am missing the obvious and maybe we all are but nevertheless, we are either missing the obvious, or we are right in our thinking.

How do we make money to at least pay for our outlay? I know about search engines and optimisation and all the jargon. The question still remains, how does being with Symbiostock help me to sell some images? If you can provide some realistic examples of how this can be achieved a lot of us would get onboard.

The internet is filled with people offering everything from used underwear to false promises. So we are bombarded by the minute by someone trying to sell us something. Why in your words does Symbiostock work and how? Perhaps it isn't working just yet (due to simple numbers of users) and that is ok. How will it work and how does it help us? Why should we sit up and take notice?

We know the sales pitch of setting our prices and not getting paid peanuts. 100% of nothing remains nothing while a very small percentage of something at a MicroStock site gets us some income. Photography has two distinct aspects to it. Art and business. When I sell an image at iStock... it's business. When I work on a composite image or vector (and they don't go to the sales bin) it's art. So I know the art. I want to know how to make money (even modestly) and how Symbiostock helps me.

I know this is long :) I never apologize for trying to make myself clear.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Ron on September 17, 2013, 12:52
You can use your site for all sorts of things. Be creative. I am sorry, but I dont understand why we need to convince people why to open their own website.

Its to have the opportunity to sell your images directly and keep 100%. What more is there to it?  If you dont have a shop, you cant sell anything.  ;)

I am sorry, I am not being argumentative, I just dont understand why people need convincing. Symbiostock is the cheapest option out there if you want your own web store. If you dont want your own web store, fine too.  :)
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cthoman on September 17, 2013, 12:54
So I pay up the fees, I spend time uploading photos, set up the site... then what?

Nothing. Something. I don't think anybody can really answer this definitively. I do well with my personal site, but I don't have any magic secrets. It's a good investment for me, but I'm sure others won't have the same results.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: stockastic on September 17, 2013, 12:57

So I pay up the fees, I spend time uploading photos, set up the site... then what? I've now spent money on a static corner of the web. My ego is fairly healthy. I don't need an online gallery for people to oooh and ahh. How do I find the clients or how do they find me?

This is - as they used to say - the 64 thousand dollar question.  Way back when 64K was some serious money.

It's the same on FAA where you will be advised  that you have to market yourself, without anyone saying exactly how.   If pressed, people will name Facebook and Twitter, and drop the "SEO" buzzword.  After that it gets it little vague...

I think a lot of people are proceeding on faith - that in the future, buyers will start to search for images with Google instead of going through agencies - your images will show up  there because you've done a lot of SEO mumbo-jumbo - they'll be led to your Symbiostock site, and buy direct.    Hey it could happen.  But I think for this to really take off, Google would have to give us some help.  Their image search would need to be more sophisticated, and somehow let buyers filter for images that are actually for sale from legitimate sources.  Otherwise click fatigue will set in pretty quickly.

Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JoRodrigues on September 17, 2013, 13:22
It's not so much whether we want our own store or not. I suspect most of us do want a store to sell our images. The point is that a store that sells no images and has no clients is a financial loss. I don't need convincing to have my own site. I've got several sites for different things. I don't write complex code but I've done web design for over a decade.

Symbiostock might be a cheap option. No arguments there. Price is less of an issue than the fact that a person with no clients to generate income has therefore no reason to keep the store open. So the question has been asked why we are not getting onboard. Well, I cannot see how it will help me find clients to purchase from my shop. I would imagine others see it similarly. It's not like we are saying that Symbiostock is a con or a bad store maker. Just that without potential clients driven somehow by being on Symbiostock, it is not much use to someone who hasn't any clients.

The challenge with making the sales is that the big guys sell (and have millions of images on hand) to an established clientele. So just because I set up shop with Symbiostock and hope for the best, it doesn't mean it will make any change in the unfortunate set up we are faced with.

Also bear in mind that I have been wanting to set up something to sell my own images on my own terms for a while now. What I don't see is being able to compete with the established sites, which is what we are talking about.

I am also not opposed to proceeding on faith. I still need to see some reason for that faith though.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Ron on September 17, 2013, 13:34
Setting up a Ktools site or a Zenfolio site should raise the same questions then?

You are asking why Symbiostock. Its not different as to why Ktools or why Zenfolio.

So you are asking why should you set up a website and where are the buyers? No one can answer that question for you. You need to do the work, promote yourself, network, market yourself. If you dont want to do that, stick with the agencies.

The big difference ad advantage  for Symbiostock is that you are part of a network of sites.

Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JoRodrigues on September 17, 2013, 13:42
What exactly is that advantage? I'm not looking to fight with you. I'm looking for the positives. How does being part of a large group generate increased traffic for example. That is a common sales pitch but it is never broken down how it ACTUALLY helps a person.

As I have said, maybe we are missing the bigger picture. Currently I am seeing that without having some way to generate sales there is little point in signing up with Symbiostock or anyone for that matter.

Being indexed on Google and using Blogger helps to get you hits through searches. How does being part of Symbiostock help me as a startup store? If it doesn't help me then that is the reason why people are "Oh Hum" about it.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: chromaco on September 17, 2013, 13:46
Customers DO use google images. I get them from there everyday. Do I make as many sales as SS - no way, but I do make sales. When I do it is worth 33 sales at SS and around 16 at IS (average rpd).
I guess a better question is why wouldn't you try? Initial expenses are around $75 for a year. Based on most peoples pricing that equates to about 4 sales per year or 1 sale every 3 months to break even.

As far as why would our sites compete with the big guys here is my answer. I sold two images last week on my symbio site that are also on 22 other sites and have been for over 3 years. My site is just over a month old. For whatever reason the customer found my symbio site before SS, IS, DT, 123, FT, or BS.
I don't blog and do almost zero social networking.

I understand that my results may not be typical but the symbio platform works and considering the cost to get started to me it was a no-brainer.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JoRodrigues on September 17, 2013, 14:01
Customers DO use google images. I get them from there everyday. Do I make as many sales as SS - no way, but I do make sales. When I do it is worth 33 sales at SS and around 16 at IS (average rpd).
I guess a better question is why wouldn't you try? Initial expenses are around $75 for a year. Based on most peoples pricing that equates to about 4 sales per year or 1 sale every 3 months to break even.

As far as why would our sites compete with the big guys here is my answer. I sold two images last week on my symbio site that are also on 22 other sites and have been for over 3 years. My site is just over a month old. For whatever reason the customer found my symbio site before SS, IS, DT, 123, FT, or BS.
I don't blog and do almost zero social networking.

I understand that my results may not be typical but the symbio platform works and considering the cost to get started to me it was a no-brainer.

Ah now you see, this makes sense to me. I've been online for over 15 odd years now and this is something to sink my teeth into. I'm a little dyslexic (esp. with numbers and stats) even though I do write but this is simple, understandable real information.

So you are selling the same images as on the Micro sites? Are clients not thinking... well I could just get this at MicroStock.com on subscription for next to nothing?Interesting.

I was thinking differently. I was going to keep the stuff on the Micro sites there and use different material on a site like Symbiostock. Would you advise uploading all the stuff you already have on existing sites?

How is Google finding your images on Symbiostock? Through the meta tags or just through keywords on your Symbiostock site?

Thanks for the help!
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Travelling-light on September 17, 2013, 14:04
A couple of years ago, when we were thinking of leaving IS exclusivity, we decided to try as many different avenues for selling our work as possible, to discover what worked and what didn't. Like you, we had no idea whether or not we would be able to sell direct, but we set up a Photoshelter site and decided we would run it for two years and see what happened.

The first year was poor,  the second year, although not impressive, was better. However, we did discover that there are people out there who are willing to buy direct from us, and pay more than peanuts.

Symbiostock came along in the meantime, and it's much cheaper than Photoshelter, and has actually brought in more sales in its first months than Photoshelter did. We will therefore abandon our Photoshelter site in a couple of months, at the end of its second year, and stick with Symbiostock.

We don't know if your files will sell. If you aren't prepared to risk $75 to find out, you will never know either. Your choice.

Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Harvepino on September 17, 2013, 14:11
I've just finished my new SYS website and I'm uploading images  at the moment :) I'm not a big player, but I love the idea and I believe in its potential and will support SYS at least by writing blogs about my experience.

As many others, first I didn't want to join because of the vast number of bug threads here on forum. I can now report to all that I haven't experienced any bugs, it wasn't hard to set up using the http://www.symbioguides.com (http://www.symbioguides.com) and everything works smoothly. Uploading is easy - it takes as much time as uploading to agencies... similar to Fotolia or Depositphotos. Upload to FTP, categorize (if you care), publish. That's it.

The thing about sales... lets say I make some $100/month on iStock. That means iStock earns some $566 selling my work. Shutterstock earns even more selling the same work. Then DT, FT, etc. The point is that selling through agencies is VERY expensive option. I am a small fish, but I could already hire a dedicated sales-person for the money that agencies take away from me. Symbiostock is almost free in this sense, while it can take care of the whole of the selling process. From business point of view, it is an opportunity of lifetime. If we get it working for us, we'll be one happy bunch of people  :D

Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JoRodrigues on September 17, 2013, 14:14
A couple of years ago, when we were thinking of leaving IS exclusivity, we decided to try as many different avenues for selling our work as possible, to discover what worked and what didn't. Like you, we had no idea whether or not we would be able to sell direct, but we set up a Photoshelter site and decided we would run it for two years and see what happened.

The first year was poor,  the second year, although not impressive, was better. However, we did discover that there are people out there who are willing to buy direct from us, and pay more than peanuts.

Symbiostock came along in the meantime, and it's much cheaper than Photoshelter, and has actually brought in more sales in its first months than Photoshelter did. We will therefore abandon our Photoshelter site in a couple of months, at the end of its second year, and stick with Symbiostock.

We don't know if your files will sell. If you aren't prepared to risk $75 to find out, you will never know either. Your choice.

Thanks for your input. These are the types of things people want to hear.

$75 might not be much in Dollars but currently (just checked) you can multiply that by 9.81. 750 South African rands is not petty cash. It is also not just that we are trading in Zimbabwe $ It's that we have an idiotic government. So in realistic terms $75 costs us about $200-300! It's great when the sales come in because of the exchange rate but you win and lose.

So I'm investing several hundred $. I'm actually rather glad I decided to make my first post here today. Indirectly I am actually encouraged. I'm going to have a second look at Symbiostock in the near future.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: chromaco on September 17, 2013, 14:19
@ JoRodrigues
I'm not saying there is no expense and you certainly need to put in some time. You will need to determine if it is worth it.

To answer your questions.
New stuff goes to my two personal sites first. I then upload to my premium sites (sites with rpd over $5.00) next. I will track sales on my sites and on the premium sites and then maybe 6 months later the sub sites will get anything that isn't selling.

I have no idea why people find my sites but they do. I am careful to use different descriptions and I prioritize certain keywords on my own sites.
My pricing is lower or equal to almost all of the big sites for on demand and my customers almost never are looking at enough images to get a sub plan. They are printers and soccer moms and sign shops who want 1 image. Some if  not most of them don't even know about the agencies.

Here's a story for you. I got a call from a customer who wanted one of my images but didn't understand the licensing. I spoke with her for about 5 minutes on the phone and answered her questions. During the course of the conversation she told me she originally found my image on a FREE site. Yes, she could have had the image for free but chose to find my site a couple of images down in the search because she wanted to pay for it (good karma I guess). She also went to the agencies but couldn't get her questions about the license answered. She bought the image from me instead of using the free site or one of the agencies because I was there to answer her questions.

This is just one example of why you should have your own site. I won't even go into custom requests and other non-stock ways to make money off of your site.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JoRodrigues on September 17, 2013, 14:25
@ JoRodrigues
I'm not saying there is no expense and you certainly need to put in some time. You will need to determine if it is worth it.

To answer your questions.
New stuff goes to my two personal sites first. I then upload to my premium sites (sites with rpd over $5.00) next. I will track sales on my sites and on the premium sites and then maybe 6 months later the sub sites will get anything that isn't selling.

I have no idea why people find my sites but they do. I am careful to use different descriptions and I prioritize certain keywords on my own sites.
My pricing is lower or equal to almost all of the big sites for on demand and my customers almost never are looking at enough images to get a sub plan. They are printers and soccer moms and sign shops who want 1 image. Some if  not most of them don't even know about the agencies.

Here's a story for you. I got a call from a customer who wanted one of my images but didn't understand the licensing. I spoke with her for about 5 minutes on the phone and answered her questions. During the course of the conversation she told me she originally found my image on a FREE site. Yes, she could have had the image for free but chose to find my site a couple of images down in the search because she wanted to pay for it (good karma I guess). She also went to the agencies but couldn't get her questions about the license answered. She bought the image from me instead of using the free site or one of the agencies because I was there to answer her questions.

This is just one example of why you should have your own site. I won't even go into custom requests and other non-stock ways to make money off of your site.

Thanks for taking the time out to reply. Now we are getting into the reasons to set up a site. Not necessarily on Symbiostock but you understand what I mean. It is because of these answers that I see things a little differently. It is always a good day when your eyes are opened. I've worked for myself most of my life on and off but I've never tried to sell images hehe
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cthoman on September 17, 2013, 14:26
...costs us about $200-300!

That's closer to what I pay for hosting, and I've been profitable every month since November 2010.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JPSDK on September 17, 2013, 14:28
Last time I posted in a symbiostock thread with the same initial question and asked some critical questions I got a bunch of angry villagers with pitchforks coming after me.

But I havent changed my mind:
Symbiostock is not very customer friendly, by means of licensing and prices.
There are huge security risks.
The chain is not stronger than the weakest link, meaning quality control.

..as someone said back then... the Symbiostock apple is not the pear you want it to be.
Thats right, it is not, there is too much anarchy as it is now.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cthoman on September 17, 2013, 14:34
Here's a story for you. I got a call from a customer who wanted one of my images but didn't understand the licensing. I spoke with her for about 5 minutes on the phone and answered her questions. During the course of the conversation she told me she originally found my image on a FREE site. Yes, she could have had the image for free but chose to find my site a couple of images down in the search because she wanted to pay for it (good karma I guess). She also went to the agencies but couldn't get her questions about the license answered. She bought the image from me instead of using the free site or one of the agencies because I was there to answer her questions.

This is just one example of why you should have your own site. I won't even go into custom requests and other non-stock ways to make money off of your site.

People definitely do find these smaller sites. My first customer sent me an email telling me my site was still in Sandbox mode, but he wanted to buy some images. I flipped the switch, then the sales started.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Shelma1 on September 17, 2013, 14:40
Those of you who've found success on Symbiostock, if you could contribute to the "questions for Symbiostock marketing description" thread under Marketing/SEO on symbiostock.org, it would go a long way towards helping me craft copy.  :D

Then I'll be able to write a comprehensive message that will (hopefully) answer a hella questions.

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Harvepino on September 17, 2013, 14:42
What exactly is that advantage? I'm not looking to fight with you. I'm looking for the positives. How does being part of a large group generate increased traffic for example. That is a common sales pitch but it is never broken down how it ACTUALLY helps a person.

As I have said, maybe we are missing the bigger picture. Currently I am seeing that without having some way to generate sales there is little point in signing up with Symbiostock or anyone for that matter.

Being indexed on Google and using Blogger helps to get you hits through searches. How does being part of Symbiostock help me as a startup store? If it doesn't help me then that is the reason why people are "Oh Hum" about it.

I'll try to answer this question by example. Lets say SYS network has 1,000,000 images at 1,000 sites... not unrealistic numbers if it keeps growing, I think. Some of the 1,000 SYS sites should certainly have fairly good Google rankings. And than you decide to join SYS and upload your pictures. You are newcomer, so your Google ranking is poor. Customers wouldn't find you, you wouldn't sell anything if not part of the network. But you are on the SYS network and lets say you have many good photos of puppy dogs. A customer is searching for a puppy dog on one of the better established websites on the network. Because you are on the network, in spite of your poor Google ranking, your puppy images will pop up right in front of the eyes of potential customer and you can get a sale. Is this a convincing positive of Symbiostock as a startup store?  :)

Moreover, there is an advantage of joining early. By the time SYS start attracting lots of buyers, you'll have good Google rankings, established links, etc... and so more chances to sell.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JoRodrigues on September 17, 2013, 14:47
Last time I posted in a symbiostock thread with the same initial question and asked some critical questions I got a bunch of angry villagers with pitchforks coming after me.

But I havent changed my mind:
Symbiostock is not very customer friendly, by means of licensing and prices.
There are huge security risks.
The chain is not stronger than the weakest link, meaning quality control.

..as someone said back then... the Symbiostock apple is not the pear you want it to be.
Thats right, it is not, there is too much anarchy as it is now.

What are the "huge security risks" then? What do you mean by "quality control"?

Thanks.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JoRodrigues on September 17, 2013, 14:50
What exactly is that advantage? I'm not looking to fight with you. I'm looking for the positives. How does being part of a large group generate increased traffic for example. That is a common sales pitch but it is never broken down how it ACTUALLY helps a person.

As I have said, maybe we are missing the bigger picture. Currently I am seeing that without having some way to generate sales there is little point in signing up with Symbiostock or anyone for that matter.

Being indexed on Google and using Blogger helps to get you hits through searches. How does being part of Symbiostock help me as a startup store? If it doesn't help me then that is the reason why people are "Oh Hum" about it.

I'll try to answer this question by example. Lets say SYS network has 1,000,000 images at 1,000 sites... not unrealistic numbers if it keeps growing, I think. Some of the 1,000 SYS sites should certainly have fairly good Google rankings. And than you decide to join SYS and upload your pictures. You are newcomer, so your Google ranking is poor. Customers wouldn't find you, you wouldn't sell anything if not part of the network. But you are on the SYS network and lets say you have many good photos of puppy dogs. A customer is searching for a puppy dog on one of the better established websites on the network. Because you are on the network, in spite of your poor Google ranking, your puppy images will pop up right in front of the eyes of potential customer and you can get a sale. Is this a convincing positive of Symbiostock as a startup store?  :)

Moreover, there is an advantage of joining early. By the time SYS start attracting lots of buyers, you'll have good Google rankings, established links, etc... and so more chances to sell.

Thanks for this info! Simple, easy to understand, and spot on!
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JPSDK on September 17, 2013, 15:02
Last time I posted in a symbiostock thread with the same initial question and asked some critical questions I got a bunch of angry villagers with pitchforks coming after me.

But I havent changed my mind:
Symbiostock is not very customer friendly, by means of licensing and prices.
There are huge security risks.
The chain is not stronger than the weakest link, meaning quality control.

..as someone said back then... the Symbiostock apple is not the pear you want it to be.
Thats right, it is not, there is too much anarchy as it is now.

What are the "huge security risks" then? What do you mean by "quality control"?

Thanks.
Security... It is probably just my overvivid imagination.
Quality control. Poor images will scare customers away. There are poor images in the network, how do they affect the network as a whole?
Basically I do not think symbiostock can take off without getting better organized. More pear shaped if you want.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Ron on September 17, 2013, 15:04
Last time I posted in a symbiostock thread with the same initial question and asked some critical questions I got a bunch of angry villagers with pitchforks coming after me.

But I havent changed my mind:
Symbiostock is not very customer friendly, by means of licensing and prices.
There are huge security risks.
The chain is not stronger than the weakest link, meaning quality control.

..as someone said back then... the Symbiostock apple is not the pear you want it to be.
Thats right, it is not, there is too much anarchy as it is now.

What are the "huge security risks" then? What do you mean by "quality control"?

Thanks.
Security... It is probably just my overvivid imagination.
Quality control. Poor images will scare customers away. There are poor images in the network, how do they affect the network as a whole?
Ow bullocks, every agency has poor images.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JoRodrigues on September 17, 2013, 15:08
Last time I posted in a symbiostock thread with the same initial question and asked some critical questions I got a bunch of angry villagers with pitchforks coming after me.

But I havent changed my mind:
Symbiostock is not very customer friendly, by means of licensing and prices.
There are huge security risks.
The chain is not stronger than the weakest link, meaning quality control.

..as someone said back then... the Symbiostock apple is not the pear you want it to be.
Thats right, it is not, there is too much anarchy as it is now.

What are the "huge security risks" then? What do you mean by "quality control"?

Thanks.
Security... It is probably just my overvivid imagination.
Quality control. Poor images will scare customers away. There are poor images in the network, how do they affect the network as a whole?

Ok, I understand what you are saying about quality. I'm not sure if it is too relevant if you are being indexed from Google directly. Still, when one considers how much junk is dumped on some of the Micro sites, I think I might actually stand a better chance as a newbie on the selling block though a system such as Symbiostock.

Security is always a risk I guess. With the Stock sites we just pray and hope that we get paid as we should be. At least with an independant site there is no confusion as to payments.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JPSDK on September 17, 2013, 15:12
that they have, but you are not networking with them.

And "bad images" is a nice way to adress the real problem: Rotten apples in the basket.

What if, and that will happen, one of the symbiostockers is a pirate, or if there are MR problems or other legal problems.

I see symbiostock as customer unfriendly and a playground for contributors, not a serious attempt to challenge the middlemen.

Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Ron on September 17, 2013, 15:13
Removed due to threats via PM on Shutterstock
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Ron on September 17, 2013, 15:14
that they have, but you are not networking with them.

And "bad images" is a nice way to adress the real problem: Rotten apples in the basket.

What if, and that will happen, one of the symbiostockers is a pirate, or if there are MR problems or other legal problems.

I see symbiostock as customer unfriendly and a playground for contributors, not a serious attempt to challenge the middlemen.
My own site is far from being customer unfriendly. You are now just being provocative. Its not appreciated.

And fact is: my site is outperforming the middle tier middleman. Seriously, dont talk about things you know nothing about.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: JPSDK on September 17, 2013, 15:54
Im not talking about your site, Ron, im talking about the network of sites being customer unfriendly.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cthoman on September 17, 2013, 16:03
Im not talking about your site, Ron, im talking about the network of sites being customer unfriendly.

Now, I'm confused. What is the network of sites? I thought people just linked to people they wanted link with and there was some experimental search database. I haven't really been keeping up with it all though.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: chromaco on September 17, 2013, 16:12
JPSDK
I understand your concerns and they are valid from a devils advocate perspective. But I am not really all that concerned about these issues. Here's why.

1) Poor images polluting the network - thats everywhere and from that perspective that actually helps my images stand out which improves my chances of making a sale. Besides that, most people with symbio sites are actually curating their sites more than the micros are. I guess there is a sense of pride and ownership which so far has kept the quality fairly high.
However, if for some reason there are some sites that have abnormally bad quality I can easily exclude these sites from showing up on my site.

2) Bad experiences with other sites affecting my sales on my site. - It's my site and my branding, the only place that it even says symbiostock is in the footer and I can turn that off if I don't want it there. I have nothing to do with the other sites on the network and I can exclude anyone I want to. That's a little like saying since I have images on both FT and IS that a customer won't buy my images on IS because they had a problem with FT.

3) Pirates - Pirates aren't going to last long on symbiostock. At least not in the network. If someone reported a pirate on the forums I would immediately exclude them from my search and remove any sites linked to them from my network. I am pretty sure they would be excluded from the global search and in no time they would be an island of one which would pretty much eliminate any seo benefits they were hoping to receive.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cathyslife on September 17, 2013, 16:37
Im not talking about your site, Ron, im talking about the network of sites being customer unfriendly.

Now, I'm confused. What is the network of sites? I thought people just linked to people they wanted link with and there was some experimental search database. I haven't really been keeping up with it all though.

I think what he means is that if a buyer comes to my site and finds an image, they must purchase on my site. But if they are looking for 3 images, and I only have one, they might find one on a network members site. But they can't put all 3 images from different network members in one cart and pay for them all at once. If they find 3 images on 3 different sites, they must pay 3 different times.

But I think people keep thinking of SY as an agency...it's not. It's individual sites. As a buyer, sometimes I couldnt find what I wanted on one site, so I might have to go to another site to find it. That means paying separately.

It is inconvenient now because the network is only at 100,000 images, but I think buyers will find 2 or 3 sites that will accommodate a good portion of their needs, and the issue of paying separately will dwindle down to a non issue.

As soon as you start talking about common carts, common sales, dividing up payments, and the like, you are right back to talking about an agency.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: farbled on September 17, 2013, 16:39
This is a good thread and lots of great info about SY floating around in here. I've been one of the first to jump on the bandwagon and I do have to report that my sales are almost non-existent. Now that can be for a number of reasons, namely:

I have a very specific niche and most of my potential customers already have MS accounts,
I have been away/sick/newjob/moving for a good chunk of the year so I have not been as active as I like,
I have not been researching other SY sites to network with, so I'm sure my visibility has gone down.

So even with negligible sales, why do I keep at it? Well, it cost me approx 80 bucks Canadian for a whole year, and I use my hosting for many things and other sites. I find that a bargain. Also, I am horribly concerned about "orphan works" legislation, so having all my photos easily found online is a plus for me and finally, I have all my best stock photos online, secure, stored and backed up. So if my hard drives go poof, I haven't lost them.

I do get visitors, I do get occasional $$. For me to expect more than that after some short months is unreasonable. I don't have a web following or a recognized name or a portfolio that is top of the class, so I have to do it the hard way and build a client base myself using the network features, social media, cold calling and emailing potential customers.

Like someone said previously, you get what you put in.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cthoman on September 17, 2013, 16:48
Im not talking about your site, Ron, im talking about the network of sites being customer unfriendly.

Now, I'm confused. What is the network of sites? I thought people just linked to people they wanted link with and there was some experimental search database. I haven't really been keeping up with it all though.

I think what he means is that if a buyer comes to my site and finds an image, they must purchase on my site. But if they are looking for 3 images, and I only have one, they might find one on a network members site. But they can't put all 3 images from different network members in one cart and pay for them all at once. If they find 3 images on 3 different sites, they must pay 3 different times.

But I think people keep thinking of SY as an agency...it's not. It's individual sites. As a buyer, sometimes I couldnt find what I wanted on one site, so I might have to go to another site to find it. That means paying separately.

It is inconvenient now because the network is only at 100,000 images, but I think buyers will find 2 or 3 sites that will accommodate a good portion of their needs, and the issue of paying separately will dwindle down to a non issue.

As soon as you start talking about common carts, common sales, dividing up payments, and the like, you are right back to talking about an agency.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. I'd think the real danger would be top sellers abandoning the network to join together rather than poor images clogging it up. I guess that was always the sticking point with the coop too. At what point are you giving more than you are getting back?
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cathyslife on September 17, 2013, 17:44
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. I'd think the real danger would be top sellers abandoning the network to join together rather than poor images clogging it up. I guess that was always the sticking point with the coop too. At what point are you giving more than you are getting back?

Interesting that you say that. It has been discussed, people starting their own "hubs", but still being connected to the network by some link. I don't know the details of how one would go about making the most of that, but I do "have a feeling" that this has already happened.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Leo Blanchette on September 17, 2013, 18:37
Hey guys,

I appreciate all the comments - both praise and criticism! And JSPK, its nice to see you back :D I mean that sincerely.

At this time I'm getting anywhere between 2, 4, or 6 hours a night sleep largely due to Symbiostock. For me personally, putting my efforts into the existing community instead of inviting new members has ended up being the wiser way to go. Of course, new members are welcome, and word-of-mouth help is very much appreciated as Shelma1 was very kind to set up an article.

With all things considered, I really appreciate the start Symbiostock has had. I think the developers and contributors alike should enjoy a nice level-off break for a while, and then release things a bit later. Perhaps the "big players" call is a little pre-mature. And besides, we have plenty of them already :D.

Sustainability is perhaps a modest and right choice (especially in light of the unsustainable micros!). It might be best after all to start slowing down growth with the idea of giving the initial participators the best attention possible, and keeping a broad market available to a few people, instead of the backward-progress of getting too big for the market we've already established. My site was doing great without a network and paid marketing, and its still doing great with Symbio. So I know its possible. That will differ between portfolios of course.

Thanks again guys! My main place will be at www.symbiostock.org (http://www.symbiostock.org), and you can contact me via email, since MSG messages can be hard to follow.

Leo
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Leo Blanchette on September 17, 2013, 18:39
Also, can we lock this thread so these final comments on the discussion don't get burried? Thanks Leaf :)
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: Snap Vectors on September 17, 2013, 21:37
Leo,

You are awesome. I have such huge respect for people who have a new idea or plan, and then have the courage to MAKE that plan a reality through hard work. 99.9% of people dream up great ideas, but fail to make those ideas into anything real. I hope you realize how inspiring that is.

I am in the process of getting my Symbiostock up and running. I'm excited to learn more about SEO and marketing to help get more potential buyers to see my work. I'm excited that I can personally control the success of my microstock portfolio.

Nate
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: jareso on September 18, 2013, 02:19
I am faaaaar from big player, but as I told in other threads here at MSG, the reason I cannot run my own Symbiostock store is crazy bureaucracy required when one, from country like mine, wants to run direct selling store that could be possibly selling virtual goods to customers who can be based anywhere in the world.
(The fact that those customers can be based in any possible country is main problem.)
I wrote about those problems here:
http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiostock-general/symbiostock-script-vat-tax-question/msg322184/#msg322184 (http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiostock-general/symbiostock-script-vat-tax-question/msg322184/#msg322184)

If there wasn't that crazy bureaucracy required to run own Symbiostock, I wouldn’t wait (not even 5 seconds) and I would IMMEDIATELY setup my own Symbiostock direct selling store!!
But I cannot. :( :'(
Because possible risk of not complying with all that required bureaucracy/legislation and thus risk of big penalties from authorities is not worth it.

Simply, in my country, selling virtual goods through agents (stock agencies) is relatively easy from legislation point of view, but selling virtual goods through own direct selling online store is so complicated that it is nearly impossible to comply with all rules required to run it.
Especially when customer can be from any possible country.
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cascoly on September 18, 2013, 11:38


So you are selling the same images as on the Micro sites? Are clients not thinking... well I could just get this at MicroStock.com on subscription for next to nothing?Interesting.

I was thinking differently. I was going to keep the stuff on the Micro sites there and use different material on a site like Symbiostock. Would you advise uploading all the stuff you already have on existing sites?

How is Google finding your images on Symbiostock? Through the meta tags or just through keywords on your Symbiostock site?

....


currently I have the same content on my sym site as with the agencies.  google images already lists many of my images from the agencies, but in its short lifespan, I've already achieved more with my sym site then with smugmug or most of the smaller agencies:

== google indexing with sym is excellent -- my smugmug site has about 10% images indexed after 3+ years.  sym site has about 80% images indexed within a few days.
== alexa ratings for my sym site have gone from 3,792,960 to 1,687,876.  my smugmug site is stagnant at 14,900,000.  meanwhile my non-sym cascoly.com site has jumped from 5,430,474 to 539,628 and the only changes to that site have been posting of my sym images - eg http://cascoly.com/trav/south/penguins.asp (http://cascoly.com/trav/south/penguins.asp)
== my sym sales have been more than yay,dp,gl,cut,big,most,photodune combined
== networked traffic from other sym sites contributes more than half the hits on my sym site - views i'd never get on my smugmug site

it's early days, but if you're interested in setting up your own site, there's no comparison between sym and ktools, faa, smugmug and all the others

there's no need to 'convince' anyone to join the network.  it's each person's business decision.   it DOES take work, though $ & time investment are small; the sym network members are committed to helping each other, but too many of the waiting-on-the-sideline comments here seem to be from people who want a complete sales system handed to them,
Title: Re: A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?
Post by: cthoman on September 18, 2013, 11:49
it's early days, but if you're interested in setting up your own site, there's no comparison between sym and ktools, faa, smugmug and all the others

I'd probably go with Symbio if I were starting a site today, but I think I'd take the Pepsi challenge with my Ktools site.  ;)