PhotoDune August Stats and Update

[collis]

Hello Microstockgrouper's 

I thought I'd stop in and report on how PhotoDune is going. I wrote up some stuff for our own PD forums and thought MSG might like to see it too!

In previous threads there has been a lot of questions raised over our pricing and rates, and as I've mentioned we're planning to re-evaluate both after a few months of being live. In the meantime, here's how PhotoDune is going!

Things Going Well

• Sales are climbing, our first month out of private beta saw sales increase more than double, from 1700 sales to 4200 sales for the month. Small still, but a good trajectory!
• We've passed 150 authors with approved items on the site, you can see the list ordered by sales here on our Top Authors page - Yuri is still dominating, that guy is a machine! And MSG's Leaf is up at #7 
• The library has been growing by about 750 a day which in the wider world of microstock is not much, but for us just starting is lots!
• We had some performance problems in the upload queue, but after a lot of hard work, we seem to have solved them making uploads much smoother
• We hit 750,000 pageviews last month, almost double the prior month!
• Search traffic is zooming upwards with 2000 visits a day flowing in already

And one that I'm sure Leaf in particular will be interested in: Microstockgroup.com sent over 1000 visits!

Things We Need to Work On

• Interestingly extended license sales are super tiny, despite the low pricing. This is interesting because the main driver of the low pricing is higher sales, so as I mentioned above this will go into our retro discussions when we hit the first quarter mark
• We're learning fast about how fast items pile up for review :-) Right now our review queue sits at about 5000 with 2000 being processed per day, meaning an average of about 2.5 working days to get a file approved. This is pretty so-so and we're working to improve this!
• We have a bunch of search and interface improvements that are still slowly rolling out. Of course this is something that will continue to the end of time really :-)

And finally we're starting to ramp up our marketing push slowly but surely, so I hope I'll be able to stop in next month and report more stats for anyone here interested 

[collis]

Oooo, I've been poking about MSG doing searches for PhotoDune and Envato and found the August Earnings thread where several members are reporting PhotoDune climbing the ranks of their portfolio!

I don't know if it's totally representative or if there are other MSG'rs who just haven't reported in yet, but still ... Yay! 

[leaf]

Thanks for the update Collis, I'm guessing I speak for more than myself by saying I really appreciate the transparency.

I did have good sales at PhotoDune last month and have high hopes for a bright future there.  That being said, I think I'll have to enjoy my 'celebrity status' of 7th place while it lasts.  I don't think I'll be able to hang on long

[collis]

Thanks for the update Collis, I'm guessing I speak for more than myself by saying I really appreciate the transparency.

I did have good sales at PhotoDune last month and have high hopes for a bright future there.  That being said, I think I'll have to enjoy my 'celebrity status' of 7th place while it lasts.  I don't think I'll be able to hang on long

hehe true! I think you should milk it for all it's worth. Maybe start referring to yourself as one of the top ten photographers in the world :-) Don't bother explain that that's according to a tiny microstock marketplace! Top ten is the important part!!!! 

[disorderly]

Hey, I'm 17th!  And only two spots behind Lisa!  Granted, she started after me and passed me in her first month.  But I can live with that.

[leaf]

Thanks for the update Collis, I'm guessing I speak for more than myself by saying I really appreciate the transparency.

I did have good sales at PhotoDune last month and have high hopes for a bright future there.  That being said, I think I'll have to enjoy my 'celebrity status' of 7th place while it lasts.  I don't think I'll be able to hang on long

hehe true! I think you should milk it for all it's worth. Maybe start referring to yourself as one of the top ten photographers in the world :-) Don't bother explain that that's according to a tiny microstock marketplace! Top ten is the important part!!!! 

If I can stay on page 1 I'll be pleased.

[lisafx]

Hey, I'm 17th!  And only two spots behind Lisa!  Granted, she started after me and passed me in her first month.  But I can live with that.

Nice to see we are in such good company!

Thanks for posting the info Collis!

I have to say that of all the new sites I have tried, PhotoDune is BY FAR the best selling.  I am really impressed with the way you guys run the site, and with the sales!   

[collis]

I have to say that of all the new sites I have tried, PhotoDune is BY FAR the best selling.  I am really impressed with the way you guys run the site, and with the sales!   

Hey Lisa, I'm really thrilled to hear that! We were really excited to have you on board so early on!

Meanwhiles, I've been meaning to write to tell you this, but one of your photos became a sort of cult hit here in our melbourne HQ office. It's the one called Romancing the Toes. I'm not sure how it began, but one of the designers found it and printed a copy to frame it and put it on his desk, then the team decided that it should be the top seller for the week and all started depositing money to buy it, then we had an office pool competition and the framed picture became a part of the trophy .. you can actually see a photo of the pool comp winner James holding the trophy and framed picture. And finally, the framed picture is now the first thing people see when they arrive at our offices out of the elevators in the foyer.

Its all (very) strange, but (very) true! Our office has a very quirky sense of humor If you ever visit Melbourne, Australia you have to come and visit, and I will introduce you as the photographer behind Romancing the Toes 

Anyhow I thought you might be wondering why one photo had such a big run on sales numbers vs the normal sales pattern of a couple of sales per item per month!!

[collis]

Aha, I found another photo from during the competition of the prizes. We had a trophy, the framed photo and two gold class cinema tickets

[microstockphoto.co.uk]

I appreciated Collin's clear replies here.

I submitted my first batch: all accepted except architectural pictures, all rejected - reason: "Please check if there is a Property Release required for this building and architecture. In commercial use, any sale of an interior or exterior of certain buildings breaches the agreement of commercial use. However for Editorial this would not be a problem. Please check and submit again. Thanks!"

Two rejected pictures where the Houses of Parliament in Westminster and Tower Bridge, one the Brandenburger Tor. All old buildings, all usually accepted by all sites. The one in Germany is even weirder since there's Panoramafreiheit (even modern buildings are acceptable there if picture is taken from publicly accessible place).

I don't usually complain about specific rejections on a public forum but since PhotoDune is very new and I am just starting to submit to this site, this is more a general question than a complaint: what is your official position towards exterior architectural pictures of old buildings taken from publicly accessible space?

The rejection says "Please check if there is a Property Release required": should I just resubmit with a note that it's not required? even in that case, it's a lot of work; or should I mark all as editorial? (even if it's not usually the case)

See sample rejected picture below.
My port is 70% architecture, if you don't accept it I'd better stop uploading completely.

[lisafx]

I have to say that of all the new sites I have tried, PhotoDune is BY FAR the best selling.  I am really impressed with the way you guys run the site, and with the sales!  

Hey Lisa, I'm really thrilled to hear that! We were really excited to have you on board so early on!

Meanwhiles, I've been meaning to write to tell you this, but one of your photos became a sort of cult hit here in our melbourne HQ office. It's the one called Romancing the Toes. I'm not sure how it began, but one of the designers found it and printed a copy to frame it and put it on his desk, then the team decided that it should be the top seller for the week and all started depositing money to buy it, then we had an office pool competition and the framed picture became a part of the trophy .. you can actually see a photo of the pool comp winner James holding the trophy and framed picture. And finally, the framed picture is now the first thing people see when they arrive at our offices out of the elevators in the foyer.

Its all (very) strange, but (very) true! Our office has a very quirky sense of humor If you ever visit Melbourne, Australia you have to come and visit, and I will introduce you as the photographer behind Romancing the Toes  

Anyhow I thought you might be wondering why one photo had such a big run on sales numbers vs the normal sales pattern of a couple of sales per item per month!!

OMG!!!  Absolutely hilarious!!  Congrats to the LUCKY winner! ROFL!

I had wondered why that photo was the top seller for a time.  My husband (the model) and I had speculated that maybe PhotoDune was the stock site of choice for foot fetishists.  

I can see my stuff will fit right in there at Envato.  I will certainly look you guys up if I ever get to Australia, and I will be sure to bring my famous hubby and my celebrated toes.   I have a strange, quirky sense of humor too, in case you hadn't noticed...

[Jo Ann Snover]

...I had wondered why that photo was the top seller for a time.  My husband (the model) and I had speculated that maybe PhotoDune was the stock site of choice for foot fetishists.  

I can see my stuff will fit right in there at Envato.  I will certainly look you guys up if I ever get to Australia, and I will be sure to bring my famous hubby and my celebrated toes. ...

When I first saw those pictures, I wondered in passing whose toes those were - your husband is an amazing model, but I couldn't imagine such an intimate shot with you as photographer and someone else's toes. So when you say you don't like to be in front of the camera, your toes have an exemption

What a fun story!

[RT]

Oh Lisa, I wondered what all the fuss was about in another thread and know I've found out why and looked at the photo, and I'm just about to have my dinner

[lisafx]

Oh Lisa, I wondered what all the fuss was about in another thread and know I've found out why and looked at the photo, and I'm just about to have my dinner

Hope we didn't ruin your dinner, LOL!

@JoAnn, yeah, I make an exception for toes.  Feet in bedroom slippers too.  Nobody else is getting their toes anywhere near my hubby's face! 

[cathyslife]

That is too funny! 

[collis]

I don't usually complain about specific rejections on a public forum but since PhotoDune is very new and I am just starting to submit to this site, this is more a general question than a complaint: what is your official position towards exterior architectural pictures of old buildings taken from publicly accessible space?

The rejection says "Please check if there is a Property Release required": should I just resubmit with a note that it's not required? even in that case, it's a lot of work; or should I mark all as editorial? (even if it's not usually the case)

See sample rejected picture below.
My port is 70% architecture, if you don't accept it I'd better stop uploading completely.

Hi there! Good questions, I have to admit I don't know the answer myself, so I'll ask Jarel our review manager if he can stop in to the forums and answer, shouldn't be too long. Thanks for your patience!

[collis]

OMG!!!  Absolutely hilarious!!  Congrats to the LUCKY winner! ROFL!

I had wondered why that photo was the top seller for a time.  My husband (the model) and I had speculated that maybe PhotoDune was the stock site of choice for foot fetishists.  

I can see my stuff will fit right in there at Envato.  I will certainly look you guys up if I ever get to Australia, and I will be sure to bring my famous hubby and my celebrated toes.   I have a strange, quirky sense of humor too, in case you hadn't noticed...

Aha! There was a bit of speculation as to whose toes and who the model those might be! I'm pretty sure someone thought it was you and your husband, I will have to find out, they'll be excited to know they called it!

That is too awesome, and glad you have such a great sense of humor. After I posted I suddenly thought - hmmm maybe that's not the best thing to write on a public forum in case you were like "hey that was a very serious photo thank you very much!!!"

Yes do come to Melbourne, you shall have the red carpet treatment!

[fotografer]

Aha! There was a bit of speculation as to whose toes and who the model those might be! I'm pretty sure someone thought it was you and your husband, I will have to find out, they'll be excited to know they called it!

LOL I didn't think that there was anybody left in the stock world that can't instantly recognize Lisa's husband!!

[RT]

Hope we didn't ruin your dinner, LOL!

I managed to force it down, but I never had you to be the sort of girl to wear a ring on her toes 

[Smithore]

Ok, i see people are uploading to site giving 25% of 3$ (not �!) for large download and with the cheapest extended license of the market, including 5$ for extra small!!
Ok, ok, then SS can lowering commission now, fotolia and istock can cut again in half...go on ...go on...
Why photodune can't give 40% commission and review their extended licence price to attract more contributors and fight to the top?
I like the fact that Collis is giving clear and fair news, but i'm disappointed for  the lack of effort on commissions...i would really like to upload there, but...

[velocicarpo]

Ok, i see people are uploading to site giving 25% of 3$ (not �!) for large download and with the cheapest extended license of the market, including 5$ for extra small!!
Ok, ok, then SS can lowering commission now, fotolia and istock can cut again in half...go on ...go on...

+1. I don`t like stupid People. But I tried. Really hard.

[lisafx]

Hope we didn't ruin your dinner, LOL!

I managed to force it down, but I never had you to be the sort of girl to wear a ring on her toes 

LOL!  You had me figured right.  I actually had to borrow the toe ring from a friend.  You know, anything for the sake of art

[sharpshot]

I still can't get enthusiastic about 25% and I'm sure if we all upload, sales wont seem so good.  I've seen it happen with other sites, people mention good sales, everyone uploads and then all you see is complaints about low sales.  They called it dilution of sales with Lucky Oliver but at least they had good EL prices and reasonable commissions.

[Snufkin]

Ok, i see people are uploading to site giving 25% of 3$ (not �!) for large download and with the cheapest extended license of the market, including 5$ for extra small!!

Unbelievable, isn't it? Apparently some contributors are way more greedy than getty or FT. They just cannot let go those peanuts. Pathetic.
There have been agencies that paid for uploads but apparently it is enough to set up an agency with the most c**** pricing in the universe and these people will flock there anyway.

Then, in another thread they will complain about commission cuts at other agencies. They make me more sick than getty or FT.  

[jremick]

I don't usually complain about specific rejections on a public forum but since PhotoDune is very new and I am just starting to submit to this site, this is more a general question than a complaint: what is your official position towards exterior architectural pictures of old buildings taken from publicly accessible space?

The rejection says "Please check if there is a Property Release required": should I just resubmit with a note that it's not required? even in that case, it's a lot of work; or should I mark all as editorial? (even if it's not usually the case)

See sample rejected picture below.
My port is 70% architecture, if you don't accept it I'd better stop uploading completely.

Hi there! Good questions, I have to admit I don't know the answer myself, so I'll ask Jarel our review manager if he can stop in to the forums and answer, shouldn't be too long. Thanks for your patience!

Hi guys,

As the review team will not be able to remember the legal specifics for each and every property around the globe, it's the photographer's responsibility to ensure they are adhering to the legal requirements for each property they photograph and submit to PhotoDune. Those who make violations are subject to our standard policy for copyright violations.

Initially we wanted to stay on the safe side of things and, if we weren't sure, we would soft-reject the photo for clarification. That doesn't really work, so I had directed the team not to do that any more. In this instance they may have forgotten or, depending on when you submitted, we may have changed the policy after your photos were reviewed.

Please also keep in mind that, like PhotoDune itself, our review team is new and developing policies for new situations as they arise. Over the next few months our review workflow and internal process will be worked on quite heavily to make sure things run smoothly and efficiently. So if issues with the review system come up, please do let us know so we can spot any issues and make the changes necessary to avoid or fix them.

Thanks!

[microstockphoto.co.uk]

Thanks Jarel and Collis for clarification - your quick and plain answers are highly appreciated

So I will resubmit the 3 pictures rejected with a note (they were submitted just a few days ago), and then submit all the rest as usual without any special procedure

[borg]

Hello Microstockgrouper's  

I thought I'd stop in and report on how PhotoDune is going. I wrote up some stuff for our own PD forums and thought MSG might like to see it too!

In previous threads there has been a lot of questions raised over our pricing and rates, and as I've mentioned we're planning to re-evaluate both after a few months of being live. In the meantime, here's how PhotoDune is going!

So, I believe in them, my friend who is selling web templates there told me that Evanto is veeery correctly and honest agency...
Their the biggest opportunity is to be friendly to their contributors, so probably after few months they will make some changes for us non-exclusives (some kind of commison levels or something)

[Jo Ann Snover]

Friendly to contributors is very nice, but it's not enough. Not to say that being Getty-like to contributors is OK, but that a marketing plan, decent prices, reasonable royalty structure and a solidly functioning site are critical.

I'll keep an eye on PhotoDune to see how things evolve, but at the moment I don't think it makes sense for me. 25% on a low price, low volume site with insanely low EL prices just doesn't add up.

[Smithore]

Friendly to contributors is very nice, but it's not enough. Not to say that being Getty-like to contributors is OK, but that a marketing plan, decent prices, reasonable royalty structure and a solidly functioning site are critical.

I'll keep an eye on PhotoDune to see how things evolve, but at the moment I don't think it makes sense for me. 25% on a low price, low volume site with insanely low EL prices just doesn't add up.

+1

[Microstock Posts]

Friendly to contributors is very nice, but it's not enough. Not to say that being Getty-like to contributors is OK, but that a marketing plan, decent prices, reasonable royalty structure and a solidly functioning site are critical.

I'll keep an eye on PhotoDune to see how things evolve, but at the moment I don't think it makes sense for me. 25% on a low price, low volume site with insanely low EL prices just doesn't add up.

To be fair istock have been around for years and they still don't have a solidly functioning site. Teething problems always happen in every new site. I must admit I did upload a few a few weeks back. I'm a bit nerdy when it comes to new sites and always love to see how the process is, plus I did think that PD may be a worthwhile site to upload to, it could well be for those with large ports, but since reading all the comments like this and in other threads, I soon changed my mind and apart from the handful of images there, I'm just not motivated to upload the rest.

I know the decision is so much easier for someone who has a few hundred images as opposed to a few thousand, the temptation to dump ur port on every site ur hopeful of, to earn more from the work u've already done is naturally a big one. But the fact is PD started a new site at 25% commission, which is surely an indicator of how they regard us and what to expect in the future. Some guys in a board room somewhere actually came to the decision of the commissions and agreed on 25%, they didn't have to decide on that figure but undoubtedly they looked at what others were giving and thought hey why not. And I don't believe that the philosophy of pricing Els so low in order to increase the frequency of sales is a good idea, the lowest is $5, so the contributor gets $1.25 for an Extended License sale. If the other agencies one day feel that PD is becoming competition, they will have no choice but to drop their EL prices, which means I will lose out cos that's where my work is.

[Microbius]

Friendly to contributors is very nice, but it's not enough. Not to say that being Getty-like to contributors is OK, but that a marketing plan, decent prices, reasonable royalty structure and a solidly functioning site are critical.

I'll keep an eye on PhotoDune to see how things evolve, but at the moment I don't think it makes sense for me. 25% on a low price, low volume site with insanely low EL prices just doesn't add up.

+1

It does make you think how genuine the complaints about not being able to leave IStock are. I mean here's a site offering terms that are terrible, and it's not like you have to lose any existing income by not joining them.
They also seem pretty responsive, yet we aren't able to collectively say "no, not until you offer better terms".

[disorderly]

It does make you think how genuine the complaints about not being able to leave IStock are. I mean here's a site offering terms that are terrible, and it's not like you have to lose any existing income by not joining them.
They also seem pretty responsive, yet we aren't able to collectively say "no, not until you offer better terms".

There's a huge difference between not joining a site and leaving one into which you've put a lot of time and content.  Even ignoring that investment of time and energy, there's all the valuable search placement you're giving up.  Images that sell have a value that newer content will struggle to match.  And then there's all the content that wouldn't get accepted today, because of policy changes or current expectations regarding resolution or quality.  It's the same reason that leaving a site feels irreversible.  Even if you could change your mind, how much of your portfolio would get accepted the second time around, and how much would it earn relative to what it's doing now?

So I leave iStock and Fotolia a little at a time, first removing non- and poor sellers, and eventually the stuff that makes money.  I want to optimize my return on the effort I've already expended.  And as for PhotoDune (getting back on track), I was invited during the closed beta and decided to give them a shot.  The effort was low, compensation was adequate, and I'm more concerned with the dollar total than individual earnings.  I'm already used to lots of little royalties, as long as there are enough of them.  And so far PhotoDune has done awfully well, far better than any site since the original bunch I joined back in 2005 and 2006. 

[RT]

I still can't get enthusiastic about 25% and I'm sure if we all upload, sales wont seem so good.  I've seen it happen with other sites, people mention good sales, everyone uploads and then all you see is complaints about low sales.  They called it dilution of sales with Lucky Oliver but at least they had good EL prices and reasonable commissions.

Good accurate points, I wasn't invited to upload during the beta stages, now because of the points you've highlighted I can't see it worth my efforts to upload when they do open up to everyone because I'd be concerned my images would get lost amongst the crowd. From somebody in my position search placement is everything, an early start on a site can make a huge difference, once they flood the site with millions of images anything decent will get lost.

[Snufkin]

People complain about 0.28 subs, yet they are happy to accept 1.25 for an EL.
A Level-5 sub on DT earns more (1.26) than an EL on Photodune
If I were a major agency, I would shaft you people all day long, 24/7/365, you are so greedy that you just don't deserve a better treatment. 
I guess the idea is: "if I get a download on Photodune, I steal a download that another contributor would get on another site". Of course you might steal your own download but here is a thought: do a projection how much money you will lose in 1 year when IS and DT adjust their royalties to Photodune's levels, even if it hurts your brain.

[CD123]

Totally agree with all the voices shouting about the low percentage and how it is a sign of approval to screw contributors even further by all in future.

However, I then look at my impressive record at Crestock:
10 sales in a year - 9 subscriptions selling all for 0.25 each (even the last 2 which where vectors!!!!)
1 Credit sale for a massive 0.60
Total: $2.85 from 345 port (one of my smallest because if their high rejection rate) after a year.............

Now I just wondered (not subtracting anything thing from the strong principle arguments against it above) how will PhotoDune be worse than this in my case?  

Not arguing that people should join, just looking at a very practical situation in my case, which might be similar for quite a lot of others and playing a bit of devil's advocate.

[Snufkin]

So I leave iStock and Fotolia a little at a time, first removing non- and poor sellers, and eventually the stuff that makes money.  I want to optimize my return on the effort I've already expended.  (...) The effort was low, compensation was adequate, and I'm more concerned with the dollar total than individual earnings.  

Wow, you think that Photodune is a better deal than IS. I'd rather earn 5-7 USD for an XXXL than 2.25, or 30 USD for an EL than 1.25.
It seems that you either skipped maths at school or you're smoking something really bad.

And so far PhotoDune has done awfully well, far better than any site since the original bunch I joined back in 2005 and 2006.  

Some of the new sites tried to offer good commisions with a decent pricing.
Imagine that in one town there are two dealers selling the same product. Dealer 1 buys that product from the supplier for 10 USD and sells for 20 USD. Dealer 2 sells the same product for 8 USD and pays 1.50 USD to the same supplier. Which of the dealers will thrive?
And who is the biggest idiot in all that? Of course the supplier digging his own grave by delivering goods to dealer 2.

*insults edited out*
By the time Photodune grows to be a meaningful agency, some new guys will come on the stage and will undercut Photodune's prices and roaylties by 50-60%  
 

[disorderly]

Wow, you think that Photodune is a better deal than IS. I'd rather earn 5-7 USD for an XXXL than 2.25, or 30 USD for an EL than 1.25.
It seems that you either skipped maths at school or you're smoking something really bad.

Yes, I think PhotoDune's a better deal.  For one thing, I'm getting a higher royalty than iStock ever gave me.  And for another, PhotoDune hasn't tried to screw me out of the royalty I agreed to when I joined.  That's ignoring the easier upload process and the lack of limits.  For me, that all adds up to a better deal.

And not that it matters, but I was a math wiz in high school and minored in it in college.  I've also learned that the moment you insult someone you're trying to convince, you've lost any leverage your arguments might have had.

[Snufkin]

Yes, I think PhotoDune's a better deal.  For one thing, I'm getting a higher royalty than iStock ever gave me. 

Now you say that a higher royalty rate is better, whereas above you wrote: "I'm more concerned with the dollar total than individual earnings. ".
So, you'd rather earn less but with a higher royalty rate. OK, now for yourself please do a projection how much money you will lose in one year when DT adjusts their pricing and royalty structure to Photodune's levels.

[disorderly]

So, you'd rather earn less but with a higher royalty rate. OK, now for yourself please do a projection how much money you will lose in one year when DT adjusts their pricing and royalty structure to Photodune's levels.

Nothing of the kind.  I accept that a new agency won't earn me as much; I'm placing a bet that their higher royalty will lead to better earnings in time, or at least enough income to justify the incremental effort of uploading.  It's not an either/or situation.  I withdraw from iStock not because they don't earn; they're still my #2 earner, although I don't know for how much longer.  I do it because they broke faith with me, and that is something I will not tolerate.

I also don't assume, as you clearly do, that it's a race to the bottom.  It may turn out that way, but it's not a matter of when Dreamstime and others reduce their rates but if.  Not every business will choose to increase their margins by screwing their suppliers.  I'll favor those who balance their and their suppliers' interests and walk away from those who don't.  And if we reach a point where there are no ethical players left, I'll find some other way to spend my time.

[Snufkin]

Nothing of the kind.  I accept that a new agency won't earn me as much; I'm placing a bet that their higher royalty will lead to better earnings in time, or at least enough income to justify the incremental effort of uploading. 

Well, 25% is hardly high royalty. It is more than IS, but many agencies offer much higher royalties.
25% from a new agency, with that pricing is simply ridiculous.

It's not an either/or situation.  I withdraw from iStock not because they don't earn; they're still my #2 earner, although I don't know for how much longer.  I do it because they broke faith with me, and that is something I will not tolerate.

I hate what they have been doing during the last year, but I actually appreciate that they raise prices. If they lose customers because of that - I don't care, it gives the fairer sites better chances to compete. With Photodune's it's the other way around, they are undercutting everybody. That indeed is unsustainable.

I also don't assume, as you clearly do, that it's a race to the bottom.  It may turn out that way, but it's not a matter of when Dreamstime and others reduce their rates but if.  Not every business will choose to increase their margins by screwing their suppliers. 

Well, that has been the trend so far, hasn't it? Don't you think it's better not to provoke them?
If the agencies see that their suppliers are happy with much lower commissions, why not adjust them?
If they adjust them to the level with which you are comfortable elsewhere, would it be 'screwing'?

C'mon disorderly, 1.25 for ELs makes getty or FT look like generous uncles, do you really need that?
Why not refrain from uploading and ask for a reasonable deal?
Without content this site is worthless and eventually they would have to offer better terms.

[CD123]

Nothing of the kind.  I accept that a new agency won't earn me as much; I'm placing a bet that their higher royalty will lead to better earnings in time, or at least enough income to justify the incremental effort of uploading. 

Well, 25% is hardly high royalty. It is more than IS, but many agencies offer much higher royalties.
25% from a new agency, with that pricing is simply ridiculous.

It's not an either/or situation.  I withdraw from iStock not because they don't earn; they're still my #2 earner, although I don't know for how much longer.  I do it because they broke faith with me, and that is something I will not tolerate.

I hate what they have been doing during the last year, but I actually appreciate that they raise prices. If they lose customers because of that - I don't care, it gives the fairer sites better chances to compete. With Photodune's it's the other way around, they are undercutting everybody. That indeed is unsustainable.

I also don't assume, as you clearly do, that it's a race to the bottom.  It may turn out that way, but it's not a matter of when Dreamstime and others reduce their rates but if.  Not every business will choose to increase their margins by screwing their suppliers. 

Well, that has been the trend so far, hasn't it? Don't you think it's better not to provoke them?
If the agencies see that their suppliers are happy with much lower commissions, why not adjust them?
If they adjust them to the level with which you are comfortable elsewhere, would it be 'screwing'?

C'mon disorderly, 1.25 for ELs makes getty or FT look like generous uncles, do you really need that?
Why not refrain from uploading and ask for a reasonable deal?
Without content this site is worthless and eventually they would have to offer better terms.

Should get a chat room (or boxing ring) where you 2 can sort this out.......

[borg]

Well, 25% is hardly high royalty. It is more than IS, but many agencies offer much higher royalties.
25% from a new agency, with that pricing is simply ridiculous.

I hope that PhotoDune will do quite opposite...  Maybe bigger royalties after initial 25% is the best solution for rapid growing...

[velocicarpo]

I just cannot believe People are trying to defend Photodune here. There is no excuse for them to try to screw us like that nor is there any excuse for contributors to screw themselves...

[disorderly]

Should get a chat room (or boxing ring) where you 2 can sort this out.......

No need.  I'm done.

[sharpshot]

Totally agree with all the voices shouting about the low percentage and how it is a sign of approval to screw contributors even further by all in future.

However, I then look at my impressive record at Crestock:
10 sales in a year - 9 subscriptions selling all for 0.25 each (even the last 2 which where vectors!!!!)
1 Credit sale for a massive 0.60
Total: $2.85 from 345 port (one of my smallest because if their high rejection rate) after a year.............

Now I just wondered (not subtracting anything thing from the strong principle arguments against it above) how will PhotoDune be worse than this in my case?  

Not arguing that people should join, just looking at a very practical situation in my case, which might be similar for quite a lot of others and playing a bit of devil's advocate.

Crestock is one of the worst sites for sales and the $0.25 was too low for me.  It takes a lot for me to remove my portfolio but they managed it.  Almost any site would look good compared to them.

[Beach Bum]

I won't be uploading there at the current rates.  They are severely undercutting the competition.  Sure, the commission rates are slightly higher than IS, but much lower than other sites.  We get 50% at 123rf.  PDs image prices are just too low, especially the ELs.  It's just advancing the race to the bottom. 

[lisafx]

What's with all the personal attacks and insults directed at other contributors on MSG lately?   

Here's a thought - if anyone doesn't want to join a particular agency - they don't have to.  Simple.

Nobody here can control whether contributors do or don't join a particular agency, or do or don't quit another one. Doesn't the very term "independent" that we call ourselves imply we can make our own individual choices?

Making peace with that realization will add years to your life. 

[CD123]

I am going to put my head also now here into the honest�s nest:

Why do you think China has the fastest economy growth rate for years in the world? Because they where prepared to work for cheaper than any one else. Why where they prepared to do that? Because they have/had a lot of poor people, prepared to work for less. Not all businesses moved their factories to China, because the quality of the products where probably not as good, because they use cheap labour.

The situation is not much different here. Larger, more established contributors will not want to submit to PhotoDune, as they have large sites with big sales every month to feed them and can look down on feeble income from smaller/newer sites or sites with lower commissions and withhold their portfolios to prove a principle point.

Smaller, newer or not as strong contributors will submit to them, as they can not afford to miss out on, the crummy income offered to them.

Larger sites will not necessarily follow trend, as they know it might cost them their more established contributors which may mean an end to their wealth (as these contributors are the cause they are successful at present).

Personally I think this is all a huge storm in a teacup. PhotoDune will not have a strong start, as they will probably not pull many top contributors. The crumbs they offer might be of some comfort to some contributors. If they grow bigger, they will be under pressure to extend their range to include better images and will be wise to up their commission at that stage to draw stronger contributors or they will die a slow painful death like many before them and leave the poor even poorer, as most would not have been able to make first payout (but that is life � screw the poor).

That is just my 5c worth�..

[sharpshot]

^^^That doesn't make much sense as some of the largest contributors here are submitting to Photodune.  Some of the smaller contributors aren't interested.

[CD123]

What's with all the personal attacks and insults directed at other contributors on MSG lately?   

Here's a thought - if anyone doesn't want to join a particular agency - they don't have to.  Simple.

Nobody here can control whether contributors do or don't join a particular agency, or do or don't quit another one. Doesn't the very term "independent" that we call ourselves imply we can make our own individual choices?

Making peace with that realization will add years to your life. 

Agree. The constant personal attacks is really in bad taste and a sign of immaturity. Maybe it is time to see a few member restrictions or bans to put an end to it.

[lisafx]

Larger, more established contributors will not want to submit to PhotoDune, as they have large sites with big sales every month to feed them and can look down on feeble income from smaller/newer sites or sites with lower commissions and withhold their portfolios to prove a principle point.

Logically, what you say makes sense.  But in actuality, Photodune has been very smart in recruiting the larger and more successful contributors first and getting their portfolios on the site before their grand opening.  

If you check out the list of top artists on PD, you will see most of the big sellers are there:

http://photodune.net/author/top_authors

IMO these guys know exactly what they are doing.  

ETA:  Sharpshot beat me to it

[CD123]

^^^That doesn't make much sense as some of the largest contributors here are submitting to Photodune.  Some of the smaller contributors aren't interested.

It is only my final submission which then needs to change - the message is then clearly not screw the poor, it is screw everybody.........  

[collis]

Hey folks! Wow this thread got a lot bigger while I wasn't looking!  There are a lot of good points, and some good criticisms for us. I can see we have our work cut out for us to win over the hearts and minds

I saw an interesting comment about Lucky Oliver which led me to reading up about them. A very interesting (and unhappy) story!! So far I have to say one of the things I'm enjoying most about the photo market is how deep and rich the history is. Lots of good lessons for us to learn

Anyhow I shall keep reporting back, and we'll keep working to make the site and service more attractive to contributors. We're still only a few weeks in, so there is much more to do and to happen!!

[sharpshot]

...If you check out the list of top artists on PD, you will see most of the big sellers are there:

http://photodune.net/author/top_authors

IMO these guys know exactly what they are doing....

I still wonder if they were offered or negotiated a higher commission?  If they accept 25% when most new sites offer closer to 50%, I really don't see it as a good business decision.  And then there's the low EL prices.  I would really like to know how they help us?  I remember a new site suggesting lower EL prices to increase volume of sales but not this low.

The really big contributors seem to have their portfolios everywhere.  So I wouldn't be surprised if new sites offer them an incentive.  The rest of us don't stand a chance of making this industry better unless we join forces.  A few years ago, several sites were forced to think again and improve their commissions.  That doesn't happen now and it's costing all of us a lot of money.  It also leaves me with zero confidence in the future.  How low are commissions going to be in 5 years time?  I'll be accused of being pessimistic but if I'm going to carry on with microstock, I need to see that commissions aren't on a downward spiral.  Seeing so many big contributors accepting 25% and low EL prices from a new site just makes me more inclined to move away from microstock.

I might just dump my portfolio on every site but that will be because I have no confidence in the future and I want to make as much money as possible now.  If you can't persuade people that using low commission sites and letting them get away with cutting commissions will ruin microstock, you might as well make the most of it while you can.

[Eco]

In the last round of Fotolia lowering our commission they wrote: "With this latest release, we're also revising our subscription plans to align with what's happening in the marketplace. As a result, prices and commissions have been adjusted accordingly".  I think this is exactly what they refer to. Photographers rushing to join a new site that offer a deal that is worse that what they (FT) offer, even after the commission cut.

Don't be naive. MSG is well known out there and I am sure all the major sites follow the discussions here, even if they do not post here. While people complain about "unfair treatment", "undervaluation of our work" and "microstock not worth it anymore", joining a site like PD may create the impression that those that complain about the recent commission cuts contradict themselves by joining a site like PD that offer even less. This confirms their argument that photographers are willing to sell their work for even less. I think we all know what will follow.  I am sure it is not a matter of "will they reduce our commission again", but rather "when will they reduce our commission again".   
   

[dirkr]

Very well put.
PD (Collis) even stated that they may review their prices and commissions.
But the clear statement they are getting (especially by many of the "big shots" joining and uploading) is: "No, please don't change, we like those low commissions".
And any of the more established microstocks will read this and clearly think about their own strategy. Because - as has been proven before - most people will do nothing but complain when they cut commissions (again). Because "we cannot afford to lose the income".

[Microstock Posts]

Very well put.
PD (Collis) even stated that they may review their prices and commissions.
But the clear statement they are getting (especially by many of the "big shots" joining and uploading) is: "No, please don't change, we like those low commissions".
And any of the more established microstocks will read this and clearly think about their own strategy. Because - as has been proven before - most people will do nothing but complain when they cut commissions (again). Because "we cannot afford to lose the income".

I think you forgot the wink, let me put it in for you. Because - as has been proven before - most people will do nothing but complain when they cut commissions (again). Because "we cannot afford to lose the income".

I was hopeful too when Collis mentioned maybe reviewing prices and commissions in another thread a while back. An indication to others to hold back I thought. Oh well.

[Microbius]

It does make you think how genuine the complaints about not being able to leave IStock are. I mean here's a site offering terms that are terrible, and it's not like you have to lose any existing income by not joining them.
They also seem pretty responsive, yet we aren't able to collectively say "no, not until you offer better terms".

There's a huge difference between not joining a site and leaving one into which you've put a lot of time and content.  Even ignoring that investment of time and energy, there's all the valuable search placement you're giving up.  Images that sell have a value that newer content will struggle to match.  And then there's all the content that wouldn't get accepted today, because of policy changes or current expectations regarding resolution or quality.  It's the same reason that leaving a site feels irreversible.  Even if you could change your mind, how much of your portfolio would get accepted the second time around, and how much would it earn relative to what it's doing now?

So I leave iStock and Fotolia a little at a time, first removing non- and poor sellers, and eventually the stuff that makes money.  I want to optimize my return on the effort I've already expended.  And as for PhotoDune (getting back on track), I was invited during the closed beta and decided to give them a shot.  The effort was low, compensation was adequate, and I'm more concerned with the dollar total than individual earnings.  I'm already used to lots of little royalties, as long as there are enough of them.  And so far PhotoDune has done awfully well, far better than any site since the original bunch I joined back in 2005 and 2006. 

I agree completely, that's my point. It is very hard to leave the agencies that represent a large part of your income when they start screwing you. It is very easy to not bother signing up to new agencies with awful terms from the outset.

[velocicarpo]

What's with all the personal attacks and insults directed at other contributors on MSG lately?   

I don`t know if someone felt offended by my comments. If so, I apologize for that.
However, it is my honest opinion that I do not feel the slightest respect for people who submit to sites like this. If you take this honesty as an offense, please do so...

[CD123]

I don`t know if someone felt offended by my comments. If so, I apologize for that.
However, it is my honest opinion that I do not feel the slightest respect for people who submit to sites like this. If you take this honesty as an offense, please do so...

I think both lisafx and my remarks where directed at the member referring to another's mathematical capabilities (which was uncalled for, no matter one's opinion of the choices people make or opinions they hold).

[Snowball]

I still wonder if they were offered or negotiated a higher commission?  

The really big contributors seem to have their portfolios everywhere.  So I wouldn't be surprised if new sites offer them an incentive.  

Seeing so many big contributors accepting 25% and low EL prices from a new site just makes me more inclined to move away from microstock.

Aren't those conflicting statements?  

C'mon - does anyone really think that these sites are paying the bigwigs the same measly royalties as the rest of us peons?  Naive thinking.  

[lisafx]

Collis, I have been unable to access my dashboard at Photodune for 3 days and counting.  What's going on there?  How are contributors supposed to see their stats, and/or request payout? 

[oboy]

They did some maintenance/restart server/... yesterday where you could not access the dashboard, because there were some problems. I logged on to my dashboard this morning without problem and ftp and processed some files. But it looks like in the forum that some have problems again.

You may want to contact their support or drop a note in their forum.

[lisafx]

Thanks Oboy.  Helps to know this is not just me.  I contacted support.  Will update when I hear back.

[borg]

Thanks Oboy.  Helps to know this is not just me.  I contacted support.  Will update when I hear back.

Everything is fine here...

[luissantos84]

Author Dashboard is very slow and turn 90% of the time into an error

[jremick]

Collis, I have been unable to access my dashboard at Photodune for 3 days and counting.  What's going on there?  How are contributors supposed to see their stats, and/or request payout? 

Hi lisafx,

I apologize for the inconvenience here. I believe the reason you may have been encountering an issue with accessing your dashboard that is somewhat unique in relation to other having issues (if anyone else is still experiencing issues). If you would like more information on this or if you're still experiencing issues accessing your dashboard, please email me at [email protected]

Thanks for your patience everyone!

[lisafx]

Collis, I have been unable to access my dashboard at Photodune for 3 days and counting.  What's going on there?  How are contributors supposed to see their stats, and/or request payout? 

Hi lisafx,

I apologize for the inconvenience here. I believe the reason you may have been encountering an issue with accessing your dashboard that is somewhat unique in relation to other having issues (if anyone else is still experiencing issues). If you would like more information on this or if you're still experiencing issues accessing your dashboard, please email me at [email protected]

Thanks for your patience everyone!

I just dropped you an e-mail.  Thanks!

[luissantos84]

do you guys look at Twitter or Facebook? or we need to get luck?

[lisafx]

Just an update - all was sorted out for me.  Thanks!

[johnbarton]

Hey luissantos84,

I'll start digging into our error logs on the servers and see if I can find out what's going on.

I know a few authors have had some stability problems with PhotoDune, especially around the FTP/web form combo, and I just wanted to quickly apologise for that. It turns out working with photos at the rate you guys can all upload is a totally different ball game to things like web templates and the like on our other marketplaces, so we're on the back foot a bit.

Usually if you're having technical problems, contacting newbielink:mailto:[email protected] [nonactive] is your best bet, all technical issues get assigned to the development team directly after a first pass over by the support staff.

[johnbarton]

@luissantos84 - We've fixed the performance problem on the author dashboard - it's still not an amazingly snappy page but it should be all OK now.

We're still getting the odd author here and there experiencing the problem of files getting stuck in "processing", that's pretty much next cab of the rank to get resolved.

[luissantos84]

thanks! it is constantly up and down, this moment up!  

(the only problem I have is Author Dashboard)

[borg]

Reviewing is a bit slow for me, only 2-3 images per day...

[jremick]

Reviewing is a bit slow for me, only 2-3 images per day...

Hi borg,

Yes, reviewing is running at quite a slow pace right now as the team is currently in development (we are adding and training more reviewers). I am actually spending this week with our review team, in person, for training, improving workflow efficiency, rooting out system bugs, etc. The next few weeks may be slow for reviewing, but the long term performance will be much better.

[Smithore]

Reviewing is a bit slow for me, only 2-3 images per day...

Don't worry, they going to breath in all your pictures !!! You'll be earning some cents in return of your efforts!!

[luissantos84]

Reviewing is a bit slow for me, only 2-3 images per day...

Don't worry, they going to breath in all your pictures !!! You'll be earning some cents in return of your efforts!!

does that mean you only collect sales over 1$ ?

[Smithore]

It means "one more crook is born" .