A call to the "Big Players" - Can we tip the scales now?

[Ron]

Tell you what. I'm a creative director and copywriter in the real world. If a group of Symbiostockers could chime in and give me the details about Symbiostock and how it works, benefits for artists/end users, I could take a shot at writing a nice description for everyone. I suggest either a new thread or private messages so we don't clutter up the forum.

Anyone interested?

Thank you Shelma, much appreciated, I posted a link to you post on the Symbiostock platform. I am sure someone will get in touch with you. I really think we should take you up on your offer. Thanks again.

[Shelma1]

Tell you what. I'm a creative director and copywriter in the real world. If a group of Symbiostockers could chime in and give me the details about Symbiostock and how it works, benefits for artists/end users, I could take a shot at writing a nice description for everyone. I suggest either a new thread or private messages so we don't clutter up the forum.

Anyone interested?

Ok, I joined the forums on Symbiostock.org...see you there!

[stockmarketer]

Maybe I'm a "big player"... I dunno... from various numbers I've seen, I think I'm in the top one hundred or so.

I am still waiting to see evidence that people are getting regular sales.  For me to be worth it, I would need to see at least 5 to 10 sales a day, and based on what I've seen so far, the early adopter Sy sites just haven't built momentum yet.

Still watching and waiting...

the minute you join people will know who you are and your portfolio

Good point, Luis.  You probably just talked me out of this for good.

This will be a HUGE hurdle for Symbiostock to overcome if it wants the big players on board.  Most of the big players remain anonymous because they don't want to tip their hands to everyone else and see their work copied. 

Symbiostock would have to promise an ENORMOUS payday to make it worth the risk.  So far, there appears to be close to 0% of that happening, so those of us who wish to remain behind the scenes and keep the spotlight off our ideas and techniques won't be inclined to join.

[luissantos84]

Maybe I'm a "big player"... I dunno... from various numbers I've seen, I think I'm in the top one hundred or so.

I am still waiting to see evidence that people are getting regular sales.  For me to be worth it, I would need to see at least 5 to 10 sales a day, and based on what I've seen so far, the early adopter Sy sites just haven't built momentum yet.

Still watching and waiting...

the minute you join people will know who you are and your portfolio

Good point, Luis.  You probably just talked me out of this for good.

This will be a HUGE hurdle for Symbiostock to overcome if it wants the big players on board.  Most of the big players remain anonymous because they don't want to tip their hands to everyone else and see their work copied. 

Symbiostock would have to promise an ENORMOUS payday to make it worth the risk.  So far, there appears to be close to 0% of that happening, so those of us who wish to remain behind the scenes and keep the spotlight off our ideas and techniques won't be inclined to join.

in fact, we can have an idea of who you are, top 100 like you said and for sure a few pictures we seen many times featured and on most popular so if anybody is willing to copy will copy but yes telling what is your portfolio will make it even easier

[cthoman]

Until/unless I was convinced there would be significant rewards, setting up a symbiostock site has to remain low on my priority list.

This was the conclusion I came too. I'm not convinced it would outperform what I have now, so it didn't seem like the best investment of time, energy, money, etc. I'm keeping an eye on it though.

This will be a HUGE hurdle for Symbiostock to overcome if it wants the big players on board.  Most of the big players remain anonymous because they don't want to tip their hands to everyone else and see their work copied. 

Symbiostock would have to promise an ENORMOUS payday to make it worth the risk.  So far, there appears to be close to 0% of that happening, so those of us who wish to remain behind the scenes and keep the spotlight off our ideas and techniques won't be inclined to join.

I'm not sure I understand this. Does anybody really hide in the shadows on the micro sites?

[grsphoto]

Symbiostock would have to promise an ENORMOUS payday to make it worth the risk.  So far, there appears to be close to 0% of that happening, so those of us who wish to remain behind the scenes and keep the spotlight off our ideas and techniques won't be inclined to join.

How do you sell/ promote your images without letting people see them?

Is there some way to hide your port on SS, IS..etc?

I really don't understand what the risk is in setting up your own site?

[fotoVoyager]

I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:

http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/

it doesn't look great, even if the underlying functionality and 'symbiosis' idea of artists sharing data is miles ahead of everything else.

We're selling in a visual field to design professionals and the vehicle for supplying our images needs to reflect that. I think that's why iStock succeeded so well in the beginning, because it looks like it's by designers for designers, whereas ShutterStock and Dreamstime looked like a programmer had done the layout (I realise they've been reworked since). Designers are a very picky bunch.

I really am very impressed with the efforts and teamwork that have taken Symbiostock this far - but you've got to make it look professional to attract professionals I think. Does that sound familiar?

I'll just apologise here in advance to those that disagree.

[chromaco]

I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:

http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/

it doesn't look great, even if the underlying functionality and 'symbiosis' idea of artists sharing data is miles ahead of everything else.

You're not entirely wrong about the aesthetics. However, I do think you can do just about anything you want if you know how to do it. The really great part about symbiostock is that you can be like me and know absolutely nothing about coding and still have a nice looking functional website that sells for the cost of about $100 and 10-12 hours worth of work. Uploading is about the same effort and time as the micros.

The thing that most people don't get is that symbiostock is not an agency. It is a way to create your own site with awesome seo and networking. If you are really motivated you could hire someone to modify the child theme to look as professional as you like. I will probably do this somewhere down the road but for now I am making sales with very little investment.

You should not think of your symbiostock site as a replacement for the micros. Instead it is more like adding another microstock agency where you control the pricing and get 100% of the pay. Some micro sites look better than others and some of the less "professional ones" sell better than some of the bigger ones. At least for me.

For me it is more of an "and" situation rather than a "or". My symbiostock site "and" the micros so to speak.
My site is just another way for customers to buy my images and will probably fall somewhere between DT and DP in the earnings poll for September.

[Jo Ann Snover]

I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:

http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/

it doesn't look great, even if the underlying functionality and 'symbiosis' idea of artists sharing data is miles ahead of everything else.

We're selling in a visual field to design professionals and the vehicle for supplying our images needs to reflect that. I think that's why iStock succeeded so well in the beginning, because it looks like it's by designers for designers, whereas ShutterStock and Dreamstime looked like a programmer had done the layout (I realise they've been reworked since). Designers are a very picky bunch.

I really am very impressed with the efforts and teamwork that have taken Symbiostock this far - but you've got to make it look professional to attract professionals I think. Does that sound familiar?

I'll just apologise here in advance to those that disagree.

I think the visual look is very important too. You will see many different appearances from the different sites though.

Clearly I've made my site look the way I think it should (and someone commented the other day that I had apparently spent a lot of time on how things look). I started with an add-on theme that Amanda sells because I thought it looked better than the default child theme. I believe she has another paid theme in the works.

The network is a loose confederation of sites though, and as such isn't going to enforce a particular look and feel. I suspect that in some ways the alternative look may help answer the question about why you might buy from a network of artists versus an agency where there's a lot more uniformity.

No apologies necessary for expressing an opinion, but I think the part you're missing is that Symbiostock isn't an "it" (as in "...the ugliness of it") but a "them" where we're a heterogeneous network not a homogenous one.

And if buyers hate my site design, they'll probably hate my images too, so not much lost

[Kerioak~Christine]

I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:

Most of us ARE amateurs at web design and if a graphic designer happened along who wanted to help out with some constructive help I doubt anyone would say no.

You could display your pictures almost anyway you wished, nearly everything is editable if you know what you are doing or are willing to experiment

[olliemt]

VotoVoyger, have you checked out the  http://www.symbiothemes.com/product/clean-theme-for-symbiostock/

Worth a look mate if not.

I started setting up my site in April, then I had a change of full time job, one of the closest people to me pass away unexpectedly, and various other set backs, however im back now and will be back on the forums as I need help, especially as the day job is taking over 60 hours a week at the min.

Im a small fish in the microstock world, although some of my accounts like istock have been going a long time, I always send the agencies the stuff that I don�t market rights managed myself, which is only about 80% of my work, leaving 20% going to agencies.  Im going travelling for a few years next winter so that will change & I will loose my UK specific client�le.

Symbiostock seemed a no brainer, there are loads of different ways to host stock but the networking idea was what swung it for me as you offer a varied product, although whoever is in your network needs to understand how to market them self and the product (symbiostock as a whole), it wont sell itself. 

If people in your network just sit back and think sales will just accumulate by magic, there wrong.

Anyway, my symbiosite looks like **** at the min, as im working 60 hours a week on the day job at the min (cash needed for travel), so my site will be a few months off; but I would like to start looking for people to network with.

My portfolio will be predominantly south coast UK at the min.
Over the next year I will be adding:

Channel Islands
Scilly Islands
More Scotland & Wales
More Sicily
Brittany - France

2014 � 2015:

Austria
Italy
Croatia
Montenegro
Albania
Macedonia
Greece
Romania

2016 -2017:

More Iceland
Canada
New Zealand
Philippines
Australia
Japan
China

Im looking for travel & landscape to network with from alternate places:

Especially North & South America.

(sorry, I know this should have been on symbio forum, but most you guys are prob networked)

www.ollietaylorphotography.com

[Travelling-light]

Really interesting comments from fotovoyager.

I'm finding it hard to understand why anyone would say "it" looks ugly. As others have said, everyone has their own site, with their own design - anyone can make their site look any way they wish.

If fotovoyager hasn't understood this, does this mean that microstockers in general haven't understood this?

I'd be really interested to hear more from FV on the ugliness aspect - have you understood that your site is your own, and can look the way you want it to?

[Leo Blanchette]

I appreciate the reasonable responses.

One thing I can say quite confidently is that many packages are sold (and for much $$$) on visuals, but they don't have the networking or SEO power that is very essential to the relationship after the quick flare of lusty attraction that hooks you. Its like selling you a beautiful looking sporty car, only to find the engine came from a lawn-mower. Literally. Either some of the more expensive options are scams, or the creators never looked deeper than just making a sale to a photographer. Some of the more elaborate "solutions" are in fact heavily marketed to photographers who are sold on visuals, and you become in effect referral sheep to other equally parasitic business relationships.

So Symbiostock's present need is visuals. In fact, visuals are left because I focused on the engine. Visuals are not very hard. A few days work to someone with experience. The "Metamorphosis" theme which www.clipartillustration.com runs on is going to blank-slate everything in such a way that it looks clean and simple, yet allows extendability and is viewable on ALL devices. A modern day standard.

Right now Symbiostock must be seen for what it is - a diamond in the rough. Its proven itself. I think people have to see the situation for what it is  - if you want to depend on people, people will take advantage of you. Photographers are visual people who are sold on visuals. Sometimes looks can be deceiving.

I'm not a marketer and I don't have very lofty goals. I am however a very tired man and an illustrator who saw some serious issues miles in advance. I simply ask others to think as I do. Sometimes we have to leave our comfort zone to find a new comfort zone.

Anyway, from here on I'll be addressing the last few refinements for Symbiostock, but I'm leaving this to grow (as it has) fairly independent of my guidance from here on. I hope people see things for what they are and act with their discretion.

[Travelling-light]

Sometimes we have to leave our comfort zone to find a new comfort zone.

Just this. I don't want to wax lyrical, but this is exactly right.

[stockastic]

Right now Symbiostock must be seen for what it is - a diamond in the rough....

I appreciate the honesty but I think you've put your finger on the problem with getting more and bigger players involved. You're telling us you're burned out for now, Symbiostock is what it is and isn't going to be 'completed' any time soon.   Saying that the next round of needed enhancements - i.e. more sophisticated visuals - would be "easy" and just "a few days work" sort of implies that you're walking away, and that time estimate might turn out to be optimistic, especially for someone new.   

For a user like myself, investing serious time in Symbiostock at this point seems like quite an act of faith.

This thing may in fact take off like a rocket, I don't know.  But the world is full of marvelous open source projects that got to 95% complete and remained there forever - to the ultimate frustration of their users...

If I'm off base here,  by all means correct me.

[Leo Blanchette]

Right now Symbiostock must be seen for what it is - a diamond in the rough....

I appreciate the honesty but I think you've put your finger on the problem with getting more and bigger players involved. You're telling us you're burned out for now, Symbiostock is what it is and isn't going to be 'completed' any time soon.   Saying that the next round of needed enhancements - i.e. more sophisticated visuals - would be "easy" and just "a few days work" sort of implies that you're walking away, and that time estimate might turn out to be optimistic, especially for someone new.   

For a user like myself, investing serious time in Symbiostock at this point seems like quite an act of faith.

This thing may in fact take off like a rocket, I don't know.  But the world is full of marvelous open source projects that got to 95% complete and remained there forever - to the ultimate frustration of their users...

If I'm off base here,  by all means correct me.

Your not off base at all. www.blender.org is an example of an open source project, needed, that succeeded.

No I'm not walking away. And visuals are best left to people with style. My wife dresses me I'm not walking away from an incomplete job by any means...I'm just saying the drywall is up, the wires are in .... now lets get some interior designers and painting crews to work.

[Ron]

I appreciate the reasonable responses.

One thing I can say quite confidently is that many packages are sold (and for much $$$) on visuals, but they don't have the networking or SEO power that is very essential to the relationship after the quick flare of lusty attraction that hooks you. Its like selling you a beautiful looking sporty car, only to find the engine came from a lawn-mower. Literally. Either some of the more expensive options are scams, or the creators never looked deeper than just making a sale to a photographer. Some of the more elaborate "solutions" are in fact heavily marketed to photographers who are sold on visuals, and you become in effect referral sheep to other equally parasitic business relationships.

So Symbiostock's present need is visuals. In fact, visuals are left because I focused on the engine. Visuals are not very hard. A few days work to someone with experience. The "Metamorphosis" theme which www.clipartillustration.com runs on is going to blank-slate everything in such a way that it looks clean and simple, yet allows extendability and is viewable on ALL devices. A modern day standard.

Right now Symbiostock must be seen for what it is - a diamond in the rough. Its proven itself. I think people have to see the situation for what it is  - if you want to depend on people, people will take advantage of you. Photographers are visual people who are sold on visuals. Sometimes looks can be deceiving.

I'm not a marketer and I don't have very lofty goals. I am however a very tired man and an illustrator who saw some serious issues miles in advance. I simply ask others to think as I do. Sometimes we have to leave our comfort zone to find a new comfort zone.

Anyway, from here on I'll be addressing the last few refinements for Symbiostock, but I'm leaving this to grow (as it has) fairly independent of my guidance from here on. I hope people see things for what they are and act with their discretion.

Not sure if I understand this. I believe the paid Pro version came with support and free upgrades. If you are stepping away from Symbiostock, who is going to do support and the upgrades? Honest question. Thanks.

[Leo Blanchette]

Not sure if I understand this. I believe the paid Pro version came with support and free upgrades. If you are stepping away from Symbiostock, who is going to do support and the upgrades? Honest question. Thanks.

Support and free upgrades are there. And I've been supporting and upgrading. Thats my happy place. I like that place.

The thing I'm talking about is growth and the one-man-band thing. Thats what I want to address. [edit] to avoid confusion - I appreciate the help we have, such as the main developers who work on external projects. This is the main thing we need more of that. For instance the "hub" plugin is not something I'm going to do on my own, or at all at this point. The PREMIUM SUSTAINING, support, and upgrades as they are needed ... as they say here in Hawaii "Easy 'kine stuff"

[Ron]

Not sure if I understand this. I believe the paid Pro version came with support and free upgrades. If you are stepping away from Symbiostock, who is going to do support and the upgrades? Honest question. Thanks.

Support and free upgrades are there. And I've been supporting and upgrading. Thats my happy place. I like that place.

The thing I'm talking about is growth and the one-man-band thing. Thats what I want to address. [edit] to avoid confusion - I appreciate the help we have, such as the main developers who work on external projects. This is the main thing we need more of that. For instance the "hub" plugin is not something I'm going to do on my own, or at all at this point. The PREMIUM SUSTAINING, support, and upgrades as they are needed ... as they say here in Hawaii "Easy 'kine stuff"

  I am not saying you wouldnt, I just didnt understand your last post about it. Now I do, so thank you for explaining.

[Leo Blanchette]

Just to put everything into a simple statement - there's a "critical mass" thats needed, so the main call here is simply for more Symbiostock sites. And for what its worth, I really don't care if people buy the premium upgrade. I can get more money on animation job for two weeks.

Symbiostock needs to be used and built by people who care about the future of their work. Thats all. I'll be around, but if I'm the one guy keeping up with too many things, then yeah, I won't be around much longer

I have a chinese friend here who sells asian snack foods. "Li hing" products, and traditional  stuff. He's the hardest worker I know, and a very humble man. He works to support his family and extended, as the chinese tradition often goes.

He himself told me its not what it looks like. Even though is specialty is asian snack foods, he could not sustain his living on that. He has to constantly adapt to the market or be left behind. His comfort zone is actually not getting comfortable! But its a lot better than being broke, poor, and left behind.

Thats all I'm saying. We need lots of symbiosis in Symbiostock. Workers working together. And  yes, it is that. But we need more of that to really get out of the race to the bottom.

If I'm being too speculative or out of reality here, please call me back to reason! 

[cidepix]

Maybe I'm a "big player"... I dunno... from various numbers I've seen, I think I'm in the top one hundred or so.

I am still waiting to see evidence that people are getting regular sales.  For me to be worth it, I would need to see at least 5 to 10 sales a day, and based on what I've seen so far, the early adopter Sy sites just haven't built momentum yet.

Still watching and waiting...

wasting your time dude..

- what I make on symbiostock is more than what I make on bigstock and canstock (or others on their level)
- I keep more than %90 for myself

there is no gain without pain.. making more than some agencies is good enough for me.. it's been only a few months.. the world won't be conquered in one day..

what you want is gain without pain..

when we are making 5-10 sales a day, it will be too late for you to jump in.. because every site builds its own reputation and climbing up on google takes time..

sites do not get good traffic on the first day they are launched, unless there is a huge marketing effort going on..

[cidepix]

I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:

http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/

it doesn't look great, even if the underlying functionality and 'symbiosis' idea of artists sharing data is miles ahead of everything else.

We're selling in a visual field to design professionals and the vehicle for supplying our images needs to reflect that. I think that's why iStock succeeded so well in the beginning, because it looks like it's by designers for designers, whereas ShutterStock and Dreamstime looked like a programmer had done the layout (I realise they've been reworked since). Designers are a very picky bunch.

I really am very impressed with the efforts and teamwork that have taken Symbiostock this far - but you've got to make it look professional to attract professionals I think. Does that sound familiar?

I'll just apologise here in advance to those that disagree.

I tried graphpaperpress before and symbiostock is MILES ahead functionality-wise.. no, actually not miles ahead, lightyears ahead..

this is from someone who tried both.. I tried pretty much all the solutions available out there today and the most important aspect of symbiostock is that it functions as good as the best..

don't forget that it is very easy to customize the way it looks.. and you can make it look better than any site..

[stockastic]

I hesitate to write this because I do not want to undermine the sterling work done by so many for a very worthy and useful cause, but as a graphic designer I cannot get past the ugliness of it.

It looks amateurish and I wouldn't want to display my pictures in that context for that reason. Compared to something like this:

http://graphpaperpress.com/themes/sell-photos/

it doesn't look great, even if the underlying functionality and 'symbiosis' idea of artists sharing data is miles ahead of everything else.

We're selling in a visual field to design professionals and the vehicle for supplying our images needs to reflect that. I think that's why iStock succeeded so well in the beginning, because it looks like it's by designers for designers, whereas ShutterStock and Dreamstime looked like a programmer had done the layout (I realise they've been reworked since). Designers are a very picky bunch.

I really am very impressed with the efforts and teamwork that have taken Symbiostock this far - but you've got to make it look professional to attract professionals I think. Does that sound familiar?

I'll just apologise here in advance to those that disagree.

Totally agree.

[cidepix]

I am a designer too and while I agree it could look better, I couldn't let symbiostock grow without me 

because;

1 - it's a wordpress theme and I know google loves wordpress.. it's easier to rank higher with WP than other popular solutions such as k-tools and cmsaccount..

2- it has all the essential functions you need..

you can easily modify the look around the functionality and SEO advantages.. that's why the theme comes with a child theme and works well with it.. very easy to upgrade without losing your modifications..

graphpaperpress looked great in the beginning but since we are being honest as designers;

- it lacked almost all the basic functions I wanted.. it's obvious that people who made graphpaperpress know much less about stock business than leo who remembered almost all the fundamental features..
- pain to upload, pain to edit, pain to set up.. I was disappointed in it and my verdict (in a kind way) graphpaperpress is rubbish apart from the looks..

plus, though nice, it looks more like a leaflet, rather than a photostore..

If anybody got the paid version of graphpaperpress, that is "money well burnt"

[Leo Blanchette]

I must retract. Sometimes I catch myself in flawed thinking. Its possible having the wrong "big players" would give us big problems. Especially since many of these are used to having things easy.

A very good example is a recent issue where somebody was handed a few advantages so they could say "professionals work with professionals" officially offsetting the damage done by another honest person who stated people's images were being given away by that very same "professional" company. Sometimes the big players are just used as distractions so that hundreds of small ones can make stupid decisions. Unfortunately while symbiostock has much to offer, unfair advantages are not one of those things.

Another thing is by stating we need more "big players" I am really taking away credit from the enormous players that have made Symbiostock, many of whom have humble portfolios. And they are seeing sales finally...so why break our wonderful progress by stupid human social assumptions? 

So again, I retract. Forgive my foolishness, and if needed we can even lock this thread. Symbiostock has new signups every day. Most of them don't even get seen on the main site for a few weeks. Steady and consistent growth eventually makes for a nice tall solid tree, right?

I think the people talking about marketing methods on the .org address are the ones that have it right. If anyone else joins, it will be due to natural growth and progress.