Introduction and an update on Symbiostock

[Symbiostock Official]

Hey guys,

I'm going to be your Symbiostock liaison from now on so don't hesitate to throw me questions if you have any. We'll be updating you as releases are made but I wanted to let you all know that me and Leo are extremely excited about some of the things we are doing with Symbiostock.

We're hoping that with your continued support and involvement, we will be able to not only enhance Symbiostock's current offering, but really expand its reach so that you can even use the system to generate sales and find customers at a level that competes with large microstock companies.

I have been a contributor for a long time, but am still somewhat new to the Symbiostock community so I'll be relying on you guys for a little guidance at times. I will keep you updated on release dates as we near launch, and again, throw me any questions you have and I'll do my best to answer them.

All the best,
Robin.

[Leo]

Unlike the previous Symbiostock community effort, I'm rather hoping I can focus more on coding and less on everything else, which brings us to: Robin!

He is a coder like myself and quite experienced in the areas he has presented himself in.

There is more to be said, but this was simply an announcement to state that everything is still running (you can see the original site is up to date) and that there is more to come.

[Symbiostock Official]

Hi Jo Ann,

Thanks for the questions and comments. I have actually visited your site a number of times and am really glad to see that you are not only using Symbiostock, but actively promoting the project through your slideshows. One of my priorities is to ensure current Symbiostock users like yourself don't feel left out of the loop.

Symbiostock is a fantastic idea. When I first found out about it I was blown away that someone had already actuated an idea that was bubbling in my own mind. Why was I interested in it? The same reason as all of you - I am a contributor, and I want to be able to market my images on my terms. This is the primary drive behind both my and Leo's passions towards it.

This never wavered with Leo - he has been working steadily on the current version, just not been very vocal about it. That's where I come in - I will try to answer contributor questions to try to bridge that gap so you too can be excited about the future of the project, as we both are.

Right now, unfortunately, I can't get into the specifics of certain aspects of our plans because they are still in the developmental stages. What is important, however, is for us to let you know that the project is alive and going strong, and that soon we will be releasing a new version of Symbiostock that should make things like installations, tweaking, and personalization a lot easier. And don't worry - you will be able to seamlessly port your current sites onto the new engine.

You'll get to know more about me as we communicate more, but I hope this has answered a few of your questions.

Thanks Jo Ann!

Robin.

[r2d2]

I wasn't involved with Symbiostock from the beginning, but did become pretty active until Leo blew his stack a few times and largely torpedoed the community and declared the project done. Right now, before I have any interest in release dates or features, I'd need to have some confidence that this next round of development was going to be different.

agree. One of the biggest problems in my view.
Such a shame in Symbiostock plugged the power to change the market in a win-win situation for profit of contributors and buyers.

I'm concerned symbiostock may cost a bit ($ 10 month) if it is stable and will be expanded.

But the buyer needs a nice looking global search.
Many buyers do not want a single vendor but an agency feeling.

summarized:

1. stability.
2. nice looking global landing page for buyers.
3. standardized clear licenses.
4. vat and tax improvements.

for that I would like to pay a monthly fee..

[cidepix]

*** bad joke alert ***

good to see batman finally got some proper help with the project.. 


*** serious comment alert ***

I am glad symbiostock is coming back stronger!..

[Justanotherphotographer]

This is a great move. Leo is a really good guy but not cut out for the forum side of things as he tends to take things to heart, hopefully with some help he can finally get a bit of payback for all he has put in to the project.

[Shelma1]

I don't know what the new Symbiostock will be or what it will look like, but in order to get people on board, in addition to the things already mentioned by others, there has to be a strategy for driving traffic to the sites, or at the very least least honesty about that being every man for himself.

My site gets very few clickthroughs from other sites in the network, and very few people go to another Symbiostock site from mine. My few sales started coming in when I began paying to promote posts on Facebook and when I included a link to my Shutterstock port in my slideshow. Again, few people click through to SS, but I think it gives visitors to my site some assurance that I'm legit and that my images meet some standard of quality.

I plan to invest a little more in Facebook marketing over the next few weeks to see what happens. But having a nice-looking site and good images is not enough....nor is the mutual linking to 100+ other sites.

Just my 2 cents.

[sharpshot]

I tried with my own Symbiostock site but I think it's the wrong way to go.  I would rather we all paid a bit to have one site that we all contribute too than all of us paying for individual sites.  And the new EU VAT regulations have stopped me selling direct online.

[Symbiostock Official]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the fantastic questions. I'm really glad you guys are pointing out some of the concerns surrounding the previous system.

I just wanted to let you know that marketing and driving sales to your media is a high priority, and we are building the entire system around a sustainable, growth oriented solution in that regard.

To be realistic about altering the industry, we have to start with the idea of contributors having a technical means of distributing their media. That is the base of Symbiostock. Past that, we then have to figure out how to compete with the marketing prowess and user experience that the large microstock companies provide.

Once we are closer to launching, we will share all the specifics and discuss tweaking the solution as a community, but rest assured we are definitely focused on marketing Symbiostock, not just developing it.

Robin.

[spike]

I just wanted to let you know that marketing and driving sales to your media is a high priority, and we are building the entire system around a sustainable, growth oriented solution in that regard.

I think that's the wording people from Stockfresh used when they started. Is anyone seeing any sales there?
Huh.

[Semmick Photo]

You are asking us to trust you? Quite remarkable when you also feel the need to stay anonymous. How long have you been on the internet? Anonymous persons on the internet asking people to trust them blindly normally doesnt end well. Its not helping me to restore my faith in the project to be honest. Its quite doing the opposite. Your introduction on the Sym forum got 2 replies, thats a reflection of the state the project is in at the moment. Restoring trust should be your number one focus. Anonymity is not going to help you with that.

Anyway, welcome to the project. Good luck with turning things around.

[JoRodrigues]

I have nothing new to add. Jo Ann and Ron have said all I would have said myself. I have a line that I often use: Trust is always at its strongest just before it gets broken.

When you have something to tell us, come back and we will tell you if we are interested or not. You had our attention and you kicked the whole lot of us in the teeth.

Jo

[Pilens]

I have nothing new to add. Jo Ann and Ron have said all I would have said myself. I have a line that I often use: Trust is always at its strongest just before it gets broken.

When you have something to tell us, come back and we will tell you if we are interested or not. You had our attention and you kicked the whole lot of us in the teeth.

Jo

Jo, please speak for yourself.

While I am not happy how things developed I 100% understand Leo's decision to practically abandon his VERY ambitious project. I don't feel in no way being "kicked in the teeth".

One issue has been that Leo tried to shoulder all of the coding required for Symbiostock himself alone. If that has changed now then it should be viewed as a positive step toward reviving the project. There's no reason at all to scare Robin away with suspicion and outright hostility.

Although I am not holding my breath, why not just wait and see?

[Justanotherphotographer]

.....When I first found out about it I was blown away that someone had already actuated an idea that was bubbling in my own mind.....

This concerns me slightly because I remember not too long ago an anonymous programmer coming on the forum with a similar idea and being told about Symbiostock. They then got really arrogant and started slating the project saying how they could do better in one afternoon (or something similar). Can you at least let us know you aren't that guy?

If anyone can find a link to that thread that would also be good because I can't track it down right now.

[Symbiostock Official]

Hey everyone - happy to announce that the new Symbiostock.org community site is up.

We're aiming to do some beta testing next week, followed by release. If you're interested in getting a pre-release look at Symbiostock, please post in the forums over there.

I will also be posting additional details surrounding the project and adding documentation and features in the next little while on the Symbiostock forums.

Thanks!

[klsbear]

Robin, I'm looking forward to seeing more info on the changes.  I did notice your offer to give credit on past purchases of the pro plugin towards future hosting or premium themes beyond the free option. I appreciate that and hope the new version is as easy a transition as it sounds like it will be.

[Symbiostock Official]

Hey Karen, thanks for that. The transition should be reasonably simple.

I've been receiving notice from legacy Symbiostock users who say a strange update has shown up for their sites - I have no knowledge of this and this has nothing to do with Symbiostock. I'm not entire sure how or why that is happening, but I recommend you not upgrade in case it breaks your install.

I am looking into the cause and will get back to you.

[cascoly]

Hey Karen, thanks for that. The transition should be reasonably simple.

I've been receiving notice from legacy Symbiostock users who say a strange update has shown up for their sites - I have no knowledge of this and this has nothing to do with Symbiostock. I'm not entire sure how or why that is happening, but I recommend you not upgrade in case it breaks your install.

I am looking into the cause and will get back to you.

robin

since you haven't replied in the sym forum, please address the issues of eula (open ended & subject to change without notice) and your now claiming trademark status for symbiostock

these are MAJOR stumbling blocks for anyone considering the 'new' symbiostock

[r2d2]

Claim on the symbiostock.org:

"Every capture is your creation.
Take control of your art."

With CENSORSHIP? I think he is killing Symbiostock.

[cathyslife]

"the future of symbiostock is large, focused on generating money for artist"

I don't know why that statement keeps being used. symbiostock is a Wordpress theme. It is up to the individual person to generate their own money. Symbiostock does NOTHING but provide the software. 

[marthamarks]

... You'll get to know more about me as we communicate more, but ...

I guess we will get to know Robin by his communications:

http://www.symbiostock.org/forums/topic/some-forum-guidelines/

In case it gets deleted (click thumbnail for full size)...

Thanks, Jo Ann, for posting the original link and your screenshot. Very interesting!

I just clicked the link and went to "Some Forum Guidelines" only to find there's no opportunity to comment there: "The topic �Some Forum Guidelines� is closed to new replies."

Looks like SYS is now Robin's way or the highway.

[marthamarks]

I just read a comment by long-time Symbiostocker Christine on the "new Symbiostock" blog. Very thoughtful, as usual: http://www.symbiostock.org/forums/topic/thoughts-and-ramblings/

The only non-Robin response to Christine is from Cascoly (AKA Steve, as long-time Symbiostockers know). And below Cascoly/Steve's avatar, it's noted that he is "blocked" on that forum. The forum is just getting re-started and already a long-time, active, positively-contributing member of "old Symbiostock" is blocked?

More censorship per the "forum guidelines," I guess.

[Shelma1]

symbiostock is a Wordpress theme. It is up to the individual person to generate their own money. Symbiostock does NOTHING but provide the software. 

Absolutely true. And I think (among many other reasons) this is why many people are disappointed by it. If Symbiostock had been sold here simply as a WordPress theme that allows you to process, watermark and sell your own images, and sales and marketing are up to you, much angst could have been avoided. But the developers, and now there are several, keep pitching this as something much more.

I appreciate all the effort everyone's put into it, but it's time to be honest and say this is a theme. When it comes to sales you're on your own.

[cathyslife]

Absolutely true. And I think (among many other reasons) this is why many people are disappointed by it. If Symbiostock had been sold here simply as a WordPress theme that allows you to process, watermark and sell your own images, and sales and marketing are up to you, much angst could have been avoided. But the developers, and now there are several, keep pitching this as something much more.

I appreciate all the effort everyone's put into it, but it's time to be honest and say this is a theme. When it comes to sales you're on your own.

Ditto. The networking part of it was a great idea, but it just didn't work.

[[email protected]]

Good Morning.
Regarding some of the above comments I would like to weigh in to the discussion for a bit.
1) As of Sunday night there is only 1 developer of Symbiostock. That would be Robin.
2) Furthermore, as of right now there is only one person offering support on Leo's Legacy Theme. That would be Leo. He will continue to make sure your sites are working and stable. In keeping with the open-source concept and symbiotic values that the original theme was based on, Leo has posted specific instructions as to how another developer can offer their own updates and support. As far as I know neither Robin nor anyone else other than Leo has shown any interest in supporting legacy sites. I understand that there are legacy site owners uncomfortable with Leo handling their updates and keeping their legacy site operating. These site owners should lobby another capable person to offer their own branch of the legacy theme which they would be responsible for. From what I understand this is very basic coding and should not be very difficult to accomplish.

Regarding the networking feature of the legacy theme. The premise was strong. That is why it was built as a theme instead of a plugin in the first place. And yes it was probably oversold, mostly because we all wanted it to work so badly that we put our complete faith in the concept. Ultimately anyone who was expecting the networking feature to be the perfect solution was doomed to be disappointed. However, the contention that it is continuing to be promoted by Leo and I is simply not true. We know it doesn't work and I've been saying so for over a year now. The networking feature in a perfect world probably would have worked but in reality it turned into a network grab with people clamoring for "the best" partners. It also resulted in disappointment when "so and so" wouldn't link back or a private group was created and others couldn't get in. This was one of the key failures Leo and I identified when we started discussing a better way.
There are many other failures with the original concept but we learned from them. Starting over with grfx.co we have made adjustments based on what we have learned over the last couple of years. The primary lesson was that it is the community that drives success. Sharing ideas and helping each other. In these ways the legacy program was a huge success. At least until the community aspect died. Once that happened stagnation followed and ultimately the project stalled.
I intend to rebuild that community. Visit us over at http://community.grfx.co/ [nofollow] or start the discussion here again. Either way lets rebuild what made the original legacy theme so unique and potentially powerful.

FWIW the grfx.co community is open to all image producers regardless of your media.

[r2d2]

And why is Leo leaving Symbiostock and let us photographers alone with this anonymous censoring Robin?

Sorry i can not understood Robin and Leo (in another way) too. There is a bad information management on both sites.

[[email protected]]

Leo did not like the direction things were going. It became clear that symbiosis was no longer part of the plan. Trust me Leo was not terribly happy about handing over 3 years of hard work. He simply could not be part of what the new vision was becoming so he chose to leave. I have no idea how the final result came to be ironed out, or why things ultimately wound up being divided the way they were. Not really any of my business, nevertheless this is what we are left with and I am trying to make the best of it. I'll admit that I am indeed an illustrator but I have legacy sites too, and I'm fairly excited with how things are progressing from my perspective.

[Semmick Photo]

The community aspect died because the project was abandoned. Not the other way around.

[NandoPhoto]

FWIW the grfx.co community is open to all image producers regardless of your media.

Please can you clarify? From the other threads and the update notice in my Legacy site (in bold), I was quite convinced that it was for illustrators only, and only if the quality of work was up to grfx.co standards?

[[email protected]]

Hi Ron, to a certain degree you are right. But abandoned might be a bit of a strong word. Once the theme became stable it really didn't require a whole lot of care. I think how you are defining "abandoned" might be more correctly categorized as a lack of improvements. And there were a lot of improvement requests. At one point just before Leo finally "broke" I believe there were close to 20 in one day. Every one of those suggestions would have been nice to have for one or two site owners but really wouldn't have benefited 95% of the community. On top of that there was an expectation that these improvements should be free. It just didn't work and Leo in his unique way of communicating expressed his frustration. Once development was stable and the improvements stopped there was very little to talk about other than how the theme doesn't work and the most interesting threads were us site owners bickering among ourselves. I have been guilty of that myself, not my finest hour and I regret some of my comments as well.

But we are moving forward. We have learned some of what caused progress to stall and result in the community becoming less active. I am trying to address these issues and keep it from happening again.

[[email protected]]

FWIW the grfx.co community is open to all image producers regardless of your media.

Please can you clarify? From the other threads and the update notice in my Legacy site (in bold), I was quite convinced that it was for illustrators only, and only if the quality of work was up to grfx.co standards?

This is a good question:
Due to contractual obligations the hosting platform at grfx is indeed for illustrators, and yes probably for those who understand their market. Honestly for anyone else it would not be a good investment. It has benefits but only if you are confident that your images will sell on your independent site in reasonable numbers.

The converter plugin works for anyone with a legacy site but does not at this point handle model releases. It should be noted that if you use the grfx converter you might not be able to convert to the new symbiostock. Leo has said that the grfx converter is reversible so there may be a work around if you choose to go a different direction later on.

The community is for anyone who is interested in self hosting. The comments, tips, and general tone are created to help promote the concept of hosting and selling your own images regardless of your media type.

I have started a new thread out of this portion of the forum. Please direct your future questions to me in that other thread so we can leave this forum category to "new Symbiostock" related discussions and I can leave this section.

[cascoly]

corw --

 thanks for the extensive comments and the important confirmation that leo will support legacy symbiostock sites as necessary

while it's true the code is available to anyone, unfortunately it is not well documented, so it's difficult for others to try to debug;  fortunately there's been no need for that as yet

I have no problem with robin moving forward with a new version, and initially my questions were all related to how we could move our sites to the new site;  but robin refused to answer even the most basic of questions; he started by deleting posts he didn't like,  and now he's censoring the forum and blocking users. his choice, his loss.


however, all symbiostock site owners should be concerned about robin's false claim to a trademark for the word 'symbiostock'  - all robin needs to do is change the name - like leo has done with grfx.  then existing symbiostock sites would not need to worry and we can all get on with trying to sell images

[r2d2]

Crow thank you for your explainations!

This is a good question:
Due to contractual obligations the hosting platform at grfx is indeed for illustrators, and yes probably for those who understand their market.

Thats the point these mysterious obligations. Why signing such a contract?

however, all symbiostock site owners should be concerned about robin's false claim to a trademark for the word 'symbiostock'  - all robin needs to do is change the name - like leo has done with grfx.  then existing symbiostock sites would not need to worry and we can all get on with trying to sell images

It's actually quite simple, either he has a trademark registered or not.
From his behavior (blocking, ignoring, censoring) I conclude that he has no rights for the trademark symbiostock. And as you said Cascoly is the name "symbiostock" in use since a few years and therefore not protectable (i hope!).

[klsbear]

Robin may or may not have filed an application for a trademark on the name but in the U.S. it takes about four to six months to go through the process before you are granted a registration number and there are opportunities to challenge it as well. I'm not familiar with international filing but presumably he would want to file in multiple countries since Symbiostock is in use internationally.

[Shelma1]

Yes, trademark is a lengthy process. And even if he's applied for a trademark, it could very well be denied because an internet search will turn up many websites already using that name. To apply for a trademark in many countries would also be expensive, I'm assuming. It's one of the first things I suggested when I joined Symbiostock, and the idea was roundly rejected.

[marthamarks]

The converter plugin works for anyone with a legacy site but does not at this point handle model releases.

So you're saying� a photographer like me � with a SYS "legacy" site and no need for model releases, because I shoot wildlife and landscapes, not people � actually could switch to grfx?

I removed the name "Symbiostock" from my site last year, so nothing would have to change in that regard.

[farbled]

The converter plugin works for anyone with a legacy site but does not at this point handle model releases.

So you're saying� a photographer like me � with a SYS "legacy" site and no need for model releases, because I shoot wildlife and landscapes, not people � actually could switch to grfx?

I removed the name "Symbiostock" from my site last year, so nothing would have to change in that regard.

I did. And I'm finding the woocommerce stuff interesting (my site is photominingstock.com). There are still lots I'm learning to do so its not entirely a cakewalk though (for me at least). But everyone is helpful. What I did was a second install of WP and just played with it for a bit. Then when I felt comfortable I converted my "real" site.

[marthamarks]

The converter plugin works for anyone with a legacy site but does not at this point handle model releases.

So you're saying� a photographer like me � with a SYS "legacy" site and no need for model releases, because I shoot wildlife and landscapes, not people � actually could switch to grfx?

I removed the name "Symbiostock" from my site last year, so nothing would have to change in that regard.

I did. And I'm finding the woocommerce stuff interesting (my site is photominingstock.com). There are still lots I'm learning to do so its not entirely a cakewalk though (for me at least). But everyone is helpful. What I did was a second install of WP and just played with it for a bit. Then when I felt comfortable I converted my "real" site.

Thank you, Farbled!

I remember your website from SYS and was impressed with your work. And now I appreciate hearing about your experience with the transition.

This is the direction I'm leaning toward, too. So maybe a few (at least) of us 'togs will wind up there to keep one another company. 

[farbled]

The converter plugin works for anyone with a legacy site but does not at this point handle model releases.

So you're saying� a photographer like me � with a SYS "legacy" site and no need for model releases, because I shoot wildlife and landscapes, not people � actually could switch to grfx?

I removed the name "Symbiostock" from my site last year, so nothing would have to change in that regard.

I did. And I'm finding the woocommerce stuff interesting (my site is photominingstock.com). There are still lots I'm learning to do so its not entirely a cakewalk though (for me at least). But everyone is helpful. What I did was a second install of WP and just played with it for a bit. Then when I felt comfortable I converted my "real" site.

Thank you, Farbled!

I remember your website from SYS and was impressed with your work. And now I appreciate hearing about your experience with the transition.

This is the direction I'm leaning toward, too. So maybe a few (at least) of us 'togs will wind up there to keep one another company. 

Absolutely. Shoot me a PM or catch me over there if you like. Happy to help!

[PhotoBomb]

I don't understand why the site needs some function for Model Releases. Legacy Symbio doesn't. If you have model released images add the Text "Model Released' to your copy.

[cascoly]

Robin may or may not have filed an application for a trademark on the name but in the U.S. it takes about four to six months to go through the process before you are granted a registration number and there are opportunities to challenge it as well. I'm not familiar with international filing but presumably he would want to file in multiple countries since Symbiostock is in use internationally.

all true -- however here's what robin CLAIMS (from his trademark page when that section was still available online):

2. Intellectual Property Rights. The Programs and each of their components are owned by Symbiostock and are protected under copyright law and under other laws as applicable. Title to the Programs and any component, or to any copy, modification, or merged portion shall remain with Symbiostock, subject to the applicable license. The �Symbiostock� trademark and the �Hummingbird� logo are trademarks of Symbiostock.

when questioned whether he had actually registered the trademark, robin refused to answer, and no trademark has been registered in the US.

[cascoly]

....
I did. And I'm finding the woocommerce stuff interesting (my site is photominingstock.com). There are still lots I'm learning to do so its not entirely a cakewalk though ..... 

what parts of woocommerce did you find useful?  I did a simple install of grfx to confirm that it works for photos, but haven't gotten much farther -- in particular, does woo make selling prints or other physical products any easier?

also, what theme did you use?  I installed with storefront, but it has too many non-image distractions

[farbled]

....
I did. And I'm finding the woocommerce stuff interesting (my site is photominingstock.com). There are still lots I'm learning to do so its not entirely a cakewalk though ..... 

what parts of woocommerce did you find useful?  I did a simple install of grfx to confirm that it works for photos, but haven't gotten much farther -- in particular, does woo make selling prints or other physical products any easier?

also, what theme did you use?  I installed with storefront, but it has too many non-image distractions

I like the product layouts and ease of customizing (currencies, etc). They already have a zillion paid and free plugins that seem to solve most tweaks I wanted to do. I'm still working through what I want vs. what I need, and it is pretty straightforward. I'm using a free theme called dazzling (I think there's a link on the bottom of my site) after trying about a half dozen free themes. Its not where I want it yet, but its getting there. I'm more concerned about my content and getting it optimized.

[marthamarks]

....
I did. And I'm finding the woocommerce stuff interesting (my site is photominingstock.com). There are still lots I'm learning to do so its not entirely a cakewalk though ..... 

what parts of woocommerce did you find useful?  I did a simple install of grfx to confirm that it works for photos, but haven't gotten much farther -- in particular, does woo make selling prints or other physical products any easier?

also, what theme did you use?  I installed with storefront, but it has too many non-image distractions

Good questions, Steve. I've been wondering if any theme will do, or if some definitely will not work, or if some work better than others.

Also, I'm glad to know you tested it with photos. Assume it did work okay, since you didn't flag any problem with that.

Gonna go check out Woo Commerce right now.

[shotupdave]

Robin may or may not have filed an application for a trademark on the name but in the U.S. it takes about four to six months to go through the process before you are granted a registration number and there are opportunities to challenge it as well. I'm not familiar with international filing but presumably he would want to file in multiple countries since Symbiostock is in use internationally.

all true -- however here's what robin CLAIMS (from his trademark page when that section was still available online):

2. Intellectual Property Rights. The Programs and each of their components are owned by Symbiostock and are protected under copyright law and under other laws as applicable. Title to the Programs and any component, or to any copy, modification, or merged portion shall remain with Symbiostock, subject to the applicable license. The �Symbiostock� trademark and the �Hummingbird� logo are trademarks of Symbiostock.

when questioned whether he had actually registered the trademark, robin refused to answer, and no trademark has been registered in the US.

I was watching the conversation between you are Robin, and it was you that way over board on your comments. I was going to log on and tell you that you were way off base on your comments and your attitude. And your claim about him not registering it because you can not find it in the US copyright office. What if h registered in his home country. You are making claims and asking questions that really are none of your business. How about letting the man bring out the SW before the criticism starts. This is the same kind of attitude that drove away Leo. 

[cascoly]

Robin may or may not have filed an application for a trademark on the name but in the U.S. it takes about four to six months to go through the process before you are granted a registration number and there are opportunities to challenge it as well. I'm not familiar with international filing but presumably he would want to file in multiple countries since Symbiostock is in use internationally.

all true -- however here's what robin CLAIMS (from his trademark page when that section was still available online):

2. Intellectual Property Rights. The Programs and each of their components are owned by Symbiostock and are protected under copyright law and under other laws as applicable. Title to the Programs and any component, or to any copy, modification, or merged portion shall remain with Symbiostock, subject to the applicable license. The �Symbiostock� trademark and the �Hummingbird� logo are trademarks of Symbiostock.

when questioned whether he had actually registered the trademark, robin refused to answer, and no trademark has been registered in the US.

I was watching the conversation between you are Robin, and it was you that way over board on your comments. I was going to log on and tell you that you were way off base on your comments and your attitude. And your claim about him not registering it because you can not find it in the US copyright office. What if h registered in his home country. You are making claims and asking questions that really are none of your business. How about letting the man bring out the SW before the criticism starts. This is the same kind of attitude that drove away Leo.

 hilarious!  you say it's none of our business when somebody no one knows jumps in, refuses to identify himself,  and then stakes a claim to the work that dozens of people have done over 2 years???  it's none of our business what the new software he's peddling is going to cost?? it's none of our business that the terms for hosting our software can be changed at any time??? 

and,  it's a TRADEMARK not a copyright issue -- you can't copyright a name;  true, the name be registered in another country  - I never said otherwise - I only said it was NOT registered in the US and asked for clarification, since robin IS CLAIMING he has a registered trademark.  only response is silence
 

[Tryingmybest]

Sounds great. I hope for the best.

Hey guys,

I'm going to be your Symbiostock liaison from now on so don't hesitate to throw me questions if you have any. We'll be updating you as releases are made but I wanted to let you all know that me and Leo are extremely excited about some of the things we are doing with Symbiostock.

We're hoping that with your continued support and involvement, we will be able to not only enhance Symbiostock's current offering, but really expand its reach so that you can even use the system to generate sales and find customers at a level that competes with large microstock companies.

I have been a contributor for a long time, but am still somewhat new to the Symbiostock community so I'll be relying on you guys for a little guidance at times. I will keep you updated on release dates as we near launch, and again, throw me any questions you have and I'll do my best to answer them.

All the best,
Robin.

[shotupdave]

Why does he have to introduce himself as long as the sw works? If Leo transferred the intellectual properities to Robin, any future SW is his property, any other sw that was written and put into use still is open public source.  And yes you can trademark a name that is unique, you cannot trademark a common word.

Don't like him or his software, don't use it, plain and simple. No one is forcing you to change.

[Pilens]

We don't know neither him nor his software (yet). Kind of hard to tell what there is to like or dislike...

What I do know is that while following this preliminary "show" here and over in the symbio forum my expectations and hopes have fallen to sub-sea-levels. There is still a good (?) chance of being pleasantly surprised, though. I'll keep lurking here...   

[klsbear]

Why does he have to introduce himself as long as the sw works? If Leo transferred the intellectual properities to Robin, any future SW is his property, any other sw that was written and put into use still is open public source.  And yes you can trademark a name that is unique, you cannot trademark a common word.

Don't like him or his software, don't use it, plain and simple. No one is forcing you to change.

If we didn't like the terms of his EULA which he seemed to say were retroactively applied to all earlier version of Symbiostock, then you had to stop using it so I would say that yes, he was forcing us to change, away from our legacy versions if you didn't agree with his new direction.

Of course this could all be a moot point. His site has been down for at least 36 hours now and he hasn't been active here or on any of his social media sites since late last week. Hard to guess if he's given it up already or just went underground until he actually had a product to show. 

And as far as trademark goes, you can trademark a name if it's unique but I believe you need to apply in multiple jurisdictions if you're seeking international protection for your mark.  Additionally, your application can be challenged if someone can show prior use. You can also be challenged after registration has been granted.  I handle trademark registrations at my day job and last year we had one of our marks challenged by someone using it for a product that was different but within the same class number (trademarks are granted for use in the specific class(es) applied for as applicable to the product it is used for).  Our attorneys advised that we accept the proposed solution of a contract that allowed joint use within the class for separate categories of sub-class as they said the other company's prior use would give them a strong case if they were to challenge us.

[marthamarks]

Even if he had a rude forum post or two to contend with, he needs to be able to handle that calmly and not post rude and condescending locked statements directed at his would-be customers.

The fact that he was all upbeat initially and dissolved on contact with a few specific and direct questions does not send good vibes about installing what he's working on, IMO.

Exactly.

As I recall, we first saw and heard from Robin when he popped up here introducing himself as Leo's spokesman in the forum. His behavior hasn't seemed very professional or spokesman-like since.

[shotupdave]

Why does he have to introduce himself as long as the sw works? If Leo transferred the intellectual properities to Robin, any future SW is his property, any other sw that was written and put into use still is open public source.  And yes you can trademark a name that is unique, you cannot trademark a common word.

Don't like him or his software, don't use it, plain and simple. No one is forcing you to change.

If we didn't like the terms of his EULA which he seemed to say were retroactively applied to all earlier version of Symbiostock, then you had to stop using it so I would say that yes, he was forcing us to change, away from our legacy versions if you didn't agree with his new direction.

Of course this could all be a moot point. His site has been down for at least 36 hours now and he hasn't been active here or on any of his social media sites since late last week. Hard to guess if he's given it up already or just went underground until he actually had a product to show. 

And as far as trademark goes, you can trademark a name if it's unique but I believe you need to apply in multiple jurisdictions if you're seeking international protection for your mark.  Additionally, your application can be challenged if someone can show prior use. You can also be challenged after registration has been granted.  I handle trademark registrations at my day job and last year we had one of our marks challenged by someone using it for a product that was different but within the same class number (trademarks are granted for use in the specific class(es) applied for as applicable to the product it is used for).  Our attorneys advised that we accept the proposed solution of a contract that allowed joint use within the class for separate categories of sub-class as they said the other company's prior use would give them a strong case if they were to challenge us.

First you do not have to register your trademark in multiple places. In fact people in other countries can registered their trademarks and copyrights here. And no you can not challenge it, you can use the older SW that has been released as open source. Case in point many of the Linux packages were one all free and open source, now many of them are only for purchase.

[shotupdave]

Robin may or may not have filed an application for a trademark on the name but in the U.S. it takes about four to six months to go through the process before you are granted a registration number and there are opportunities to challenge it as well. I'm not familiar with international filing but presumably he would want to file in multiple countries since Symbiostock is in use internationally.

all true -- however here's what robin CLAIMS (from his trademark page when that section was still available online):

2. Intellectual Property Rights. The Programs and each of their components are owned by Symbiostock and are protected under copyright law and under other laws as applicable. Title to the Programs and any component, or to any copy, modification, or merged portion shall remain with Symbiostock, subject to the applicable license. The �Symbiostock� trademark and the �Hummingbird� logo are trademarks of Symbiostock.

when questioned whether he had actually registered the trademark, robin refused to answer, and no trademark has been registered in the US.

I was watching the conversation between you are Robin, and it was you that way over board on your comments. I was going to log on and tell you that you were way off base on your comments and your attitude. And your claim about him not registering it because you can not find it in the US copyright office. What if h registered in his home country. You are making claims and asking questions that really are none of your business. How about letting the man bring out the SW before the criticism starts. This is the same kind of attitude that drove away Leo.

 hilarious!  you say it's none of our business when somebody no one knows jumps in, refuses to identify himself,  and then stakes a claim to the work that dozens of people have done over 2 years???  it's none of our business what the new software he's peddling is going to cost?? it's none of our business that the terms for hosting our software can be changed at any time??? 

and,  it's a TRADEMARK not a copyright issue -- you can't copyright a name;  true, the name be registered in another country  - I never said otherwise - I only said it was NOT registered in the US and asked for clarification, since robin IS CLAIMING he has a registered trademark.  only response is silence

Is he making you but it, no he is not, did he say you have to stop using the older sw, no. In fact he stated clearly, that you can run the older sw as long as you want to, but there is  not going to be any upgrades by him. if you are a coder, you can modify as much as you want. You still have not given any logical rational reason, why you have such a bad attitude. And do you have any evidence from lets say Leo, that he did not hand over the whole concept, licence and rights to Robin. Or are you just pulling  these complaints out of your backside. You come off as a little kid screaming that someone is trying to take your candy away. Unless you are paying for this, stop compaing and use the older sw or go to another platform.

[r2d2]

Symbiostock is a fantastic idea. When I first found out about it I was blown away that someone had already actuated an idea that was bubbling in my own mind. Why was I interested in it? The same reason as all of you - I am a contributor, and I want to be able to market my images on my terms. This is the primary drive behind both my and Leo's passions towards it.


Robin.

Hey Robin,

1. You killing the fantastic idea by not supporting any networking features.
2. You killing the spirit of Symbiostock (free speech and independence) by blocking, ignoring and censoring.
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.
4. You are a contributor and want only to contribute to your terms?
Funny no name/address can be found but the prices for Symbiostock plus are already online.
It may be that you are not a photographer/illustrator but your attention especially is on the monetization?


You have not understood what constituted Symbistock it could have been a revolution! Now it's just your attempt  to make quickly money.
Maybe you should better writing another book...

[shotupdave]

1. You killing the fantastic idea by not supporting any networking features.

He may add them in a later version, and you can still run the older version until he does.

2. You killing the spirit of Symbiostock (free speech and independence) by blocking, ignoring and censoring.

There is no such thing as free speech on a privately owned board. Your rights end when you sign on. He can control what is said and by whom. Can I go onto your site and say anything on your stock site?
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so.
4. You are a contributor and want only to contribute to your terms?

It is his code and his plugin, and the plugin will work on any other independent site and their is no cost. The hoting is an option that can refuse to do, So why any complaint.
Funny no name/address can be found but the prices for Symbiostock plus are already online.

Can you give me a valid reason, why you require this information?


It may be that you are not a photographer/illustrator but your attention especially is on the monetization?

Funny, you want to use his software for the idea of profit but complain he wants to profit too. That by very definition is a hypocritical attitude.


You have not understood what constituted Symbistock it could have been a revolution! Now it's just your attempt  to make quickly money.
Maybe you should better writing another book...

Your last comment is just an ad hominem fallacy, and shows a lack of character

[JPSDK]

Oh no.
Robin and Leo.
What an amateurish attempt to beat a dead horse.
Have you not learned anything from the previous experience?

You need a board of directors.
You need a clear vision.
You need to describe a way to the goals of that vision, milestones and procedures.
You need clear terms people can agree on.
You need to guarantee peoples code and integrity.
You need to guarantee your own integrety.

A photographers network could be a powerfull player in the business, but only if its structure is cemented in concrete, and that is physical as well as mental. Rules and rules and rules again. And shoot the trespassers.

You have not solved any of the problems that lead to the death of Symbiostiock 1.1

Plus you have to add socialism, and that leaves out all the americans.  "El pueblo unido jamais sera vencido".

[r2d2]

1. You killing the fantastic idea by not supporting any networking features.

He may add them in a later version, and you can still run the older version until he does.

2. You killing the spirit of Symbiostock (free speech and independence) by blocking, ignoring and censoring.

There is no such thing as free speech on a privately owned board. Your rights end when you sign on. He can control what is said and by whom. Can I go onto your site and say anything on your stock site?
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so.
4. You are a contributor and want only to contribute to your terms?

It is his code and his plugin, and the plugin will work on any other independent site and their is no cost. The hoting is an option that can refuse to do, So why any complaint.
Funny no name/address can be found but the prices for Symbiostock plus are already online.

Can you give me a valid reason, why you require this information?


It may be that you are not a photographer/illustrator but your attention especially is on the monetization?

Funny, you want to use his software for the idea of profit but complain he wants to profit too. That by very definition is a hypocritical attitude.


You have not understood what constituted Symbistock it could have been a revolution! Now it's just your attempt  to make quickly money.
Maybe you should better writing another book...

Your last comment is just an ad hominem fallacy, and shows a lack of character

 

I have no problem with it if someone offers a service to Symbiostock and wants money for it. But Robin claimed in his EULA Symbiostock completely for itself. He wants to offer any service for Symbiostock he wants to be Symbiostock.
Symbiostock was always an open community.
And that is important because it can not be bought by the industry or any agency do close it. For me is therefore important that will clarify whether Symbiostock is a free term. But Robin does not comment on this.

And if I know who he is, I can better assess whether he is a contributor or just a businessman.

[shotupdave]

 

I have no problem with it if someone offers a service to Symbiostock and wants money for it. But Robin claimed in his EULA Symbiostock completely for itself. He wants to offer any service for Symbiostock he wants to be Symbiostock.

If Leo gave it to me him why can't he claim it.
Symbiostock was always an open community.

So was Linux but now many instances you have to pay for it. Do you think you have any right to get anything for free all of the time. And the only charge will be if you have a site hosted by him. So what is the problem?


And that is important because it can not be bought by the industry or any agency do close it. For me is therefore important that will clarify whether Symbiostock is a free term. But Robin does not comment on this.

He has made tat completely clear, it will be given away as a free plugin

And if I know who he is, I can better assess whether he is a contributor or just a businessman.

And if it he is just a businessman, are you not just a businessman offering  a service too, or do you give all of your images away?

You still have not given any valid reason to know him.
[/quote]

[cascoly]

.... 
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so. 

....

get your basic facts right ---- 

it's Robin who must prove his claim, since he makes it such a prominent part of his offerings --

Leo sold Robin the rights to the new version of symbiostock, but no rights to anything related to the original symbiostock

Leo COULD NOT have given robin the trademark robin claims, since Leo NEVER TRADEMARKED the word symbiostock.   Leo SPECIFICALLY made symbiostock a brand that ANYONE could use, and said so EXPLICITLY in this and other forums, many times.  Leo ENCOURAGED anyone interested to register domain names that included symbiostock, such as symbiostock.info and symbiostock-network.com -- that made symbiostock difficult if not impossible to ever trademark due to common law and prior usage

[Lizard]

1. You killing the fantastic idea by not supporting any networking features.

He may add them in a later version, and you can still run the older version until he does.

2. You killing the spirit of Symbiostock (free speech and independence) by blocking, ignoring and censoring.

There is no such thing as free speech on a privately owned board. Your rights end when you sign on. He can control what is said and by whom. Can I go onto your site and say anything on your stock site?
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so.
4. You are a contributor and want only to contribute to your terms?

It is his code and his plugin, and the plugin will work on any other independent site and their is no cost. The hoting is an option that can refuse to do, So why any complaint.
Funny no name/address can be found but the prices for Symbiostock plus are already online.

Can you give me a valid reason, why you require this information?


It may be that you are not a photographer/illustrator but your attention especially is on the monetization?

Funny, you want to use his software for the idea of profit but complain he wants to profit too. That by very definition is a hypocritical attitude.


You have not understood what constituted Symbistock it could have been a revolution! Now it's just your attempt  to make quickly money.
Maybe you should better writing another book...

Your last comment is just an ad hominem fallacy, and shows a lack of character

I'm actually pretty glad this has slowly grown. Not too many people at once...keeps my development controlled and not too overwhelming.

Also I'm quite thankful to those who help. Amazingly so.

Today I'm starting to realize that we're hitting a crucial point -

After I fix this last batch of bugs (the results of the last batch of improvements) its time to let it go and self-develop.

You've probably noticed I put a huge amount of "nature" references into this tool and endeavor. The idea of a self-prolific entity which is at first planted, then spreads on its own - whether it be your website, or this project. That was my goal since the beginning.

I've been very very much grateful for the recent contributions of some development-savvy people. They actually improved your SY experience tenfold and don't even seem to be asking for thanks. I'm hoping that people start adopting various parts of this project and start working together, and systematically working in improvements together. It seems to be happening naturally.

So here is where we are: After this last batch of "serious" bugs (the ones that get in the way of crucial functionality) I'm going to start letting this get adopted and refined by whoever wants to do it - on any level. ...and there should always be something in it for those who make the sacrifice. As for myself, I gave myself a certain amount of time to work with more-than-usual dedication, but my time is starting to run out, so this last batch of fixes which brings us to relative stability is where I will end my daily dedication to this.

This won't hurt anything - It will just leave a vacuum that needs to get filled, and will get filled with people who can use this and develop it to their and your (symbiotic) benefit.

Its been a fun ride! Its a sunny day today! Enjoyed a lot of it, but getting back to some remaining bugs soon.

So what Open Source means for Symbiostock - it means it can be whatever you want to make it from here.

[shotupdave]

.... 
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so. 

....

get your basic facts right ---- 

it's Robin who must prove his claim, since he makes it such a prominent part of his offerings --

Leo sold Robin the rights to the new version of symbiostock, but no rights to anything related to the original symbiostock

Leo COULD NOT have given robin the trademark robin claims, since Leo NEVER TRADEMARKED the word symbiostock.   Leo SPECIFICALLY made symbiostock a brand that ANYONE could use, and said so EXPLICITLY in this and other forums, many times.  Leo ENCOURAGED anyone interested to register domain names that included symbiostock, such as symbiostock.info and symbiostock-network.com -- that made symbiostock difficult if not impossible to ever trademark due to common law and prior usage

Again you show nothing but ignorance, first you made the claim the robin did not register it, now you are saying leo did not. having a website with the name symbiostock has nothing to do with the product. we do not use common law in us federal laws. so agin you are wrong.

[cascoly]

.... 
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so. 

....

get your basic facts right ---- 

it's Robin who must prove his claim, since he makes it such a prominent part of his offerings --

Leo sold Robin the rights to the new version of symbiostock, but no rights to anything related to the original symbiostock

Leo COULD NOT have given robin the trademark robin claims, since Leo NEVER TRADEMARKED the word symbiostock.   Leo SPECIFICALLY made symbiostock a brand that ANYONE could use, and said so EXPLICITLY in this and other forums, many times.  Leo ENCOURAGED anyone interested to register domain names that included symbiostock, such as symbiostock.info and symbiostock-network.com -- that made symbiostock difficult if not impossible to ever trademark due to common law and prior usage

Again you show nothing but ignorance, first you made the claim the robin did not register it, now you are saying leo did not. having a website with the name symbiostock has nothing to do with the product. we do not use common law in us federal laws. so agin you are wrong.

 what I said was correct:
   Robin has not registered a trademark for symbiostock
  Leo did not register a trademark EITHER

the US most definitely considers common law usage as part of trademark law - a simple google search turns up many sites top explain it for you
eg
http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/common.html