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Author Topic: GO Greece!  (Read 83217 times)

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« Reply #175 on: June 29, 2015, 05:09 »
+5
Greece presented the EU with incorrect figures and lied about their financial state. If there was any shoehorning done, it was because Greece painted a rosy picture. I dont see why the EU has to be blamed for the mess in Greece.

Its like jailing a person for leaving their home unlocked instead of jailing the burglar for entering it.

Yes, and the EU knew the figures were fiddled and didn't care because the political aim of achieving ever wider union, with the euro as the currency. So it's more like inviting a known burglar into your house and showing him the combination of the safe before you go out for the evening.

As for "north" and "south" - sheesh, it's not about the pedantic niceties of geography.


« Reply #176 on: June 29, 2015, 06:33 »
+3
Another "sound" economical decision: free public transport for everyone!

http://en.protothema.gr/free-public-transport-for-everyone/



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Semmick Photo

« Reply #177 on: June 29, 2015, 07:03 »
+2
Greece presented the EU with incorrect figures and lied about their financial state. If there was any shoehorning done, it was because Greece painted a rosy picture. I dont see why the EU has to be blamed for the mess in Greece.

Its like jailing a person for leaving their home unlocked instead of jailing the burglar for entering it.


Yes, and the EU knew the figures were fiddled and didn't care because the political aim of achieving ever wider union, with the euro as the currency. So it's more like inviting a known burglar into your house and showing him the combination of the safe before you go out for the evening.


http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/united-kingdom/eu-knew-greece-cooked-its-books-when-it-joined-eurozone-243927.html

Well you are right. So the EU is very much to blame here. This does change my perspective about the EU and it's role in this disaster.

« Reply #178 on: June 29, 2015, 07:05 »
0
Greece presented the EU with incorrect figures and lied about their financial state. If there was any shoehorning done, it was because Greece painted a rosy picture. I dont see why the EU has to be blamed for the mess in Greece.

Its like jailing a person for leaving their home unlocked instead of jailing the burglar for entering it.


Yes, and the EU knew the figures were fiddled and didn't care because the political aim of achieving ever wider union, with the euro as the currency. So it's more like inviting a known burglar into your house and showing him the combination of the safe before you go out for the evening.


http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/united-kingdom/eu-knew-greece-cooked-its-books-when-it-joined-eurozone-243927.html

Well you are right. So the EU is very much to blame here. This does change my perspective about the EU and it's role in this disaster.


+this
Countries whose companies have invested the most in Greece: Germany, Italy, France....
http://qz.com/439703/german-companies-have-bought-up-the-most-greek-businesses/

« Reply #179 on: June 29, 2015, 08:21 »
+1
Greece presented the EU with incorrect figures and lied about their financial state. If there was any shoehorning done, it was because Greece painted a rosy picture. I dont see why the EU has to be blamed for the mess in Greece.

Its like jailing a person for leaving their home unlocked instead of jailing the burglar for entering it.


Yes, and the EU knew the figures were fiddled and didn't care because the political aim of achieving ever wider union, with the euro as the currency. So it's more like inviting a known burglar into your house and showing him the combination of the safe before you go out for the evening.


http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/united-kingdom/eu-knew-greece-cooked-its-books-when-it-joined-eurozone-243927.html

Well you are right. So the EU is very much to blame here. This does change my perspective about the EU and it's role in this disaster.


As an aside, I'd also argue that the disaster may well have been an inevitable consequence of serious misjudgements made in the 1990s and maybe even 80s. Even the electoral revolt that brought Syriza to power after five years of austerity may have been historically inevitable, in which case the favoured bogey-people - Tsipras, Merkel or Juncker, depending on your perspective - really aren't to blame at all, they are just marionettes. If Asimov had written the script this would have been a "Seldon Moment" and the god would jump out of the machine and show us all the one route out of the dismal labyrinth.

StockPhotosArt.com

« Reply #180 on: June 29, 2015, 11:29 »
+6
Balance of Trade between Portugal and the Countries of the European Union:

1985: +(plus) 10 million euros

1991: -(MINUS) 6 BILLION euros

2010: -(MINUS) 16 BILLION euros

Between these dates the EU:

- restricted the portuguese agriculture with severe quotas and subsidies to those stopping the production (with the restrictive quotas many hardly had alternatives to accept the subsidies)

- restricted the portuguese fishing industry with severe quotas and subsidies to those who dismantled the boats (the quotas and the opening of the portuguese sea to powerful foreign fishing fleets that depleted the quotas quickly made living from fishing impossible to many)

- the dismantling of the industry with the consecutive opening of the borders to products from China, India, etc., dropping the custom taxes and making an industry that had to meet the European work conditions standard impossible to sustain.

- the introduction of the Euro currency that made impossible for portuguese economy to compete since the country no longer had the flexibility of the national currency

- the imposed savage privatization of the strategic sectors which gave a boost to the funds of the state and making possible to mascarade the real situation of the portuguese economy and debt, but led to huge medium and long term loss of revenue to the state. Profitable companies no longer sent their profits to the state but to privates.

- the state (central and local) started to hire a large number of people to cope with the unemployment

- with the planed destruction of the productive sectors of the economy, the state had to fund itself, and the European Bankers started to lend money to Portugal which obviously had to be repaid with interests.

- This way,  the puppet masters of this fake union won in three ways. They killed the potential competition that another state could bring to their products, they found a new market to sell their products including the ones we didn't need to import a few years ago, and started to profit from the loans on the public debt.

The EU knew all this since it was in the back giving orders to the corrupt portuguese politicians.

And if they knew about the Greeks cooking the books, they had no doubts about the real situation of the portuguese economy and the unsustainability to keep a low debt in a country that stopped producing!

They knew this was going to happen sooner or latter, and when Portugal defaults (real chances) they will lose some money which will be nevertheless compensated by the profits made along decades
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 11:49 by StockPhotosArt »

Semmick Photo

« Reply #181 on: June 29, 2015, 11:57 »
+2
This thread is about Greece. If you want to talk about Portugal, its best to open a new thread. Please.

« Reply #182 on: June 29, 2015, 12:27 »
0
Balance of Trade between Portugal and the Countries of the European Union:

1985: +(plus) 10 million euros

1991: -(MINUS) 6 BILLION euros

2010: -(MINUS) 16 BILLION euros

Between these dates the EU:

- restricted the portuguese agriculture with severe quotas and subsidies to those stopping the production (with the restrictive quotas many hardly had alternatives to accept the subsidies)

- restricted the portuguese fishing industry with severe quotas and subsidies to those who dismantled the boats (the quotas and the opening of the portuguese sea to powerful foreign fishing fleets that depleted the quotas quickly made living from fishing impossible to many)

- the dismantling of the industry with the consecutive opening of the borders to products from China, India, etc., dropping the custom taxes and making an industry that had to meet the European work conditions standard impossible to sustain.

- the introduction of the Euro currency that made impossible for portuguese economy to compete since the country no longer had the flexibility of the national currency

- the imposed savage privatization of the strategic sectors which gave a boost to the funds of the state and making possible to mascarade the real situation of the portuguese economy and debt, but led to huge medium and long term loss of revenue to the state. Profitable companies no longer sent their profits to the state but to privates.

- the state (central and local) started to hire a large number of people to cope with the unemployment

- with the planed destruction of the productive sectors of the economy, the state had to fund itself, and the European Bankers started to lend money to Portugal which obviously had to be repaid with interests.

- This way,  the puppet masters of this fake union won in three ways. They killed the potential competition that another state could bring to their products, they found a new market to sell their products including the ones we didn't need to import a few years ago, and started to profit from the loans on the public debt.

The EU knew all this since it was in the back giving orders to the corrupt portuguese politicians.

And if they knew about the Greeks cooking the books, they had no doubts about the real situation of the portuguese economy and the unsustainability to keep a low debt in a country that stopped producing!

They knew this was going to happen sooner or latter, and when Portugal defaults (real chances) they will lose some money which will be nevertheless compensated by the profits made along decades


... what is happening in Portugal politic  - is there some party like Syriza or Podemos in Spain...?

StockPhotosArt.com

« Reply #183 on: June 29, 2015, 13:40 »
+5
This thread is about Greece. If you want to talk about Portugal, its best to open a new thread. Please.

It's all linked!

Part of the reasons that lead Greece to where it stands today are the same that lead Portugal to where it stands. The errors made by each country was purposely multiplied and exploited 1 million times more in favor of the bankers and politicians of the center of Europe.

The same basic bigotry and ignorant arguments are used by the new superior races, carefully misinformed by the propaganda, and the racist comments I see all around the web are the same. I'm just waiting for a gate to be built with a writing on the top: O Trabalho Torna-te Livre

And especially because if Greece falls, Portugal goes next, and then it will become a house of cards. The problem is much bigger than Greece and it's not contained to that country, especially when the responsibles for it continue to call the shots!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 13:42 by StockPhotosArt »

« Reply #184 on: June 29, 2015, 13:42 »
0

1985: +(plus) 10 million euros

1991: -(MINUS) 6 BILLION euros

2010: -(MINUS) 16 BILLION euros


What you say is true, but incomplete. And half truths are more dangerous than lies.
Your country is now doing better than in 2010. See the graph related to Portugal's trade balance.
Portugal's 2015 country report highlights the progress, even if the country is far from being out of the woods: ec.europa.eu/europe2020/pdf/csr2015/cr2015_portugal_en.pdf

Portugal is now like Greece was before Syriza seized the power only to drive it in a deeper recession through incompetence and populism.
Free transport in Athens! Imagine that! Like the country can afford such a luxury these days. But hey, there is a referendum on Sunday and the population must be bribed to vote what the government wants.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 13:54 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #185 on: June 29, 2015, 15:13 »
+6
And there it was, stathakis just said on cnn live if people vote yes although they are asking them to vote no, the current government will not negotiate for yes. There will be a new government he said.

So they have just been playing with everyone, if the will of the people does not fit their agenda they will hand over their mess to someone else and refuse all responsibility.

« Reply #186 on: June 29, 2015, 15:27 »
+2
while we're busy talking about greece nobody is looking Ukraine which is the real dead man walking and can't even pay the salaries without begging to their euro/american puppetmasters.

Obviously, Putin's troll army is pushing his divide and conquer, salami tactics agenda on all fronts.
Greece is, probably, another victory for him after the destruction of Ukraine. Rejoice Titus! (or Titov?)


StockPhotosArt.com

« Reply #187 on: June 29, 2015, 15:30 »
+1
... what is happening in Portugal politic  - is there some party like Syriza or Podemos in Spain...?

Oh... Portugal is much under control of the two right wing Mafias (pseudo-Social-Democrats and pseudo-Socialists) and their extreme-right clutch (Popular Party).

We'll have elections around September/October and at this moment it seems that everything will for sure continue to be the same because the portuguese are basically ceasing to vote instead choosing other options. So, the ones that put Portugal in this situation will be the ones in charge to get us out... LOL

Plus, the hundreds of thousands emigrating, who would be the ones with most reasons to protest in the urns, won't vote also because it's not possible to them.

There's a new party, with a high-profile leader (ex-president of the Lawyer Order), but the campaign and defamation has already started. The main parties seemed to be able to introduce trojan horses inside the new party, and now are starting to leave with the most atrocious accusations creating fear about him. This party and candidate would be placed in the center.

Other people are afraid to go into politics since the state is undermined by the PS / PSD / PP moles.

As for the other parties in the parliament, they don't stand a chance.

The Portuguese Comunist Party has a lot of votes in the municipal elections (and the only one not plagued by corruption cases) but people don't vote them for the government. Some people in Portugal still fear them to be cannibals of babies, and that they would mass murder old people with poisonous injections behind the ear (I KID YOU NOT AT ALL) after the campaigns made by the church and right wing parties after the revolution. Those that do not believe in that stayed with a bad feeling.

And the Left Bloc has been suffering from internal conflicts and it's in a downward spiral for years now with some of their leaders leaving and creating new parties in the Line of the Podemos.

In last case there will be a central bloc with all the parties responsible for the disaster of the last 40 years just to keep power.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 16:09 by StockPhotosArt »

« Reply #188 on: June 29, 2015, 15:32 »
+1

"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"

And, as we all see, even in this forum, Putin's troll army is rather effective in bashing EU, US, democracy and capitalism, no matter what the topic is, from sales on Shutterstock to the Greek crisis.
This is what you guys want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T65SwzHAbes
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 15:41 by Zero Talent »

StockPhotosArt.com

« Reply #189 on: June 29, 2015, 16:06 »
+1
What you say is true, but incomplete. And half truths are more dangerous than lies.
Your country is now doing better than in 2010. See the graph related to Portugal's trade balance.
Portugal's 2015 country report highlights the progress, even if the country is far from being out of the woods: ec.europa.eu/europe2020/pdf/csr2015/cr2015_portugal_en.pdf

Portugal is now like Greece was before Syriza seized the power only to drive it in a deeper recession through incompetence and populism.
Free transport in Athens! Imagine that! Like the country can afford such a luxury these days. But hey, there is a referendum on Sunday and the population must be bribed to vote what the government wants.

Half lies? Really? Well, at least you ended-up acknowledging that the data from 1985 to 2010 is true which kind of proves my point about how "great" the EU has been for us and the reason why we are in this mess in the first place! Which was actually my point.

But, not even inside the coalition-parties that make the government the numbers that are presented are completely believed! There are voices doubting the numbers the government is publishing, including former government members of those parties!

But yes, there's seems to be some recovery in the Balance of Trade due to an increase of the exports, and especially due to the contraction of the consumption of imported goods, which is almost everything.

The poverty level skyrocketed, and the percentage of the population in risk of poverty is huge, so people just buy the most basic products. Some supermarket chains, including foreign ones operating here, have started to promote and supply some national products and that also slowed down the consumption of imported food.

But according the latest informations the exports have taken a downturn again (heard it about two weeks ago in the news) because the reasons that sustained the growth are not systemic and have benefited from occasional events like the fluctuations in the price of oil.

Any recovery that's apparently being made is not due to the solution of problems, but because people are being squeezed to the maximum.

The reform of the state is not being made, the Troika is constantly pressing the government to reduce expenditure but that's not happening, so the results are, as I said from the side of the income by raising taxes.

Well, the "expenditure" is being reduced actually... in the education, healthcare, social protection.

But to renew the fleet of cars of the ministries and secretaries, to pay for the billions of euros per year of the public-private agreements where the companies in charge of the management of public infra-structures are reimbursed if any loss occurs (nice no?), and other aberrations like that there doesn't seem to lack money.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 16:12 by StockPhotosArt »

« Reply #190 on: June 29, 2015, 16:19 »
+1
And there it was, stathakis just said on cnn live if people vote yes although they are asking them to vote no, the current government will not negotiate for yes. There will be a new government he said.

So they have just been playing with everyone, if the will of the people does not fit their agenda they will hand over their mess to someone else and refuse all responsibility.

Yesterday Djisselbloem said that the EU could not accept Syriza as negotiating partners on the outcome of a yes vote because they clearly didn't believe it and could not be trusted to implement a deal. He and Stathakis seem to be on the same page on that one.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 16:25 by BaldricksTrousers »

« Reply #191 on: June 29, 2015, 16:22 »
0
Quote from: StockPhotosArt link=topic=25334.msg424306#msg424306

Half lies? Really?

I said "half truths", not "half lies". Because the second part of your truth was missing. There is a difference.

Anyway, I read what you say, however I don't know who you are in real life and what you want.
Of course, there is always a chance that someone has reported fake numbers. Until proven wrong, I tend to trust a "little more" an official document, than some emotional internet rant.

« Reply #192 on: June 29, 2015, 16:24 »
+1

Your map deliberately confuses US bases with Nato bases. The two may be the same but they are not all the same.

Semmick Photo

« Reply #193 on: June 29, 2015, 16:25 »
+1
Yes Paul.  Obviously Dijsselbloem exactly anticipated what kind of people he is dealing with. And now it turns out he is right.

« Reply #194 on: June 29, 2015, 16:45 »
0
... what is happening in Portugal politic  - is there some party like Syriza or Podemos in Spain...?

Oh... Portugal is much under control of the two right wing Mafias (pseudo-Social-Democrats and pseudo-Socialists) and their extreme-right clutch (Popular Party).

We'll have elections around September/October and at this moment it seems that everything will for sure continue to be the same because the portuguese are basically ceasing to vote instead choosing other options. So, the ones that put Portugal in this situation will be the ones in charge to get us out... LOL

Plus, the hundreds of thousands emigrating, who would be the ones with most reasons to protest in the urns, won't vote also because it's not possible to them.

There's a new party, with a high-profile leader (ex-president of the Lawyer Order), but the campaign and defamation has already started. The main parties seemed to be able to introduce trojan horses inside the new party, and now are starting to leave with the most atrocious accusations creating fear about him. This party and candidate would be placed in the center.

Other people are afraid to go into politics since the state is undermined by the PS / PSD / PP moles.

As for the other parties in the parliament, they don't stand a chance.

The Portuguese Comunist Party has a lot of votes in the municipal elections (and the only one not plagued by corruption cases) but people don't vote them for the government. Some people in Portugal still fear them to be cannibals of babies, and that they would mass murder old people with poisonous injections behind the ear (I KID YOU NOT AT ALL) after the campaigns made by the church and right wing parties after the revolution. Those that do not believe in that stayed with a bad feeling.

And the Left Bloc has been suffering from internal conflicts and it's in a downward spiral for years now with some of their leaders leaving and creating new parties in the Line of the Podemos.

In last case there will be a central bloc with all the parties responsible for the disaster of the last 40 years just to keep power.

 ... IF Podemos wins next elections in Spain - then all Mediterranean nations will follow - maybe that will bring some changes to Portugal political scene...

« Reply #195 on: June 29, 2015, 17:13 »
+2
Yes Paul.  Obviously Dijsselbloem exactly anticipated what kind of people he is dealing with. And now it turns out he is right.

I think it's a fair view from both sides. It was hardly an "anticipation", since he was basing it on Tsipras's Friday night comments. Tsipras tied his colours to the mast and must stand by them to the end. It's not dishonourable in any way.

« Reply #196 on: June 29, 2015, 17:18 »
0
Folks outside Ireland won't have seen this..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_shBt5aGjg

« Reply #197 on: June 29, 2015, 18:29 »
0
Nothing new. This is what will happen in Greece, if the banks will collapse: a barter based economy. A primitive economy. People will pay each other in raw products and services

In your clip: all these people will not be 100 dollars richer, but they will all realise that, in fact, they had no debt. That 100 bill helped them realize that, by closing the debt circle. Without it, they will continue to harass each other for their 1 on 1 debts, when, in fact, all of them were debt free. They could have easily settled their debts by getting all in the same room. But that will be rather hard to do, if the circle is bigger, with many more than 4 or 5 people involved in the transaction.

This is why money, a common denominator, is better than barter.

This is what banks do, indeed.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 19:38 by Zero Talent »

fritz

  • I love Tom and Jerry music

« Reply #198 on: June 29, 2015, 18:56 »
0


« Reply #199 on: June 29, 2015, 23:09 »
+4

"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"

And, as we all see, even in this forum, Putin's troll army is rather effective in bashing EU, US, democracy and capitalism, no matter what the topic is, from sales on Shutterstock to the Greek crisis.
This is what you guys want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T65SwzHAbes


Well as you started writing in "GO Greece" topic and upsetting people which are in "GO Greece" mood the only one that can fit into troll definition among two of us  is you isnt that so ?

But I wont be doing any accusations that you are one of the of Merkel-Schultz hypnotized zombies and i sincerely believe that one day you will find strength and open your eyes  :)

Peace

 



« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 23:12 by Lizard »


 

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