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« Reply #200 on: June 30, 2015, 01:49 »
0
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« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 02:12 by StockPhotosArt »


Semmick Photo

« Reply #201 on: June 30, 2015, 03:02 »
+3
Yes Paul.  Obviously Dijsselbloem exactly anticipated what kind of people he is dealing with. And now it turns out he is right.

I think it's a fair view from both sides. It was hardly an "anticipation", since he was basing it on Tsipras's Friday night comments. Tsipras tied his colours to the mast and must stand by them to the end. It's not dishonourable in any way.
Juncker feels stabbed in the back. Why is that? The Greek negotiators are telling lies to their people. Cobalt is spot on with her comments.

I understand you defend the Greeks as you are about to retire there, but I have a different point of view. I will keep it at that.

« Reply #202 on: June 30, 2015, 04:22 »
+5
It used to be so cheap to go to Greece for a holiday.  I can't see how they can keep the Euro, so they will probably have a huge tourism boom when they go back to their own currency.  Then other countries that are struggling with the Euro and rely on tourism will probably have to go back to their currencies to be competitive with Greece.  I think there will be a lot exiting the Euro in the next 5 years.

« Reply #203 on: June 30, 2015, 10:17 »
+12
If they get the drachme back, they can devalue it or print as much money as they like.

Isn't this part of chinas success? Keeping their currency low so the world keeps buying their products and their already low wages are even cheaper than they should be so they keep all the jobs?

I wonder if bulgaria or lithuania or poland held a referendum, to ask if they should send greece more money, would the greeks accept the democratic decisions of other european countries?

The UK doesn't have the euro because they decided it didn't work for them.

However, the biggest problem is the lack of a basically functioning state.

If the greeks themselves don't trust their own banks and remove all their money, why should the rest of the World loan them money?

If the greeks don't trust their state and don't pay their taxes, why should other countries tax money go there?

Why don't the greek billionaire's step up with humanitarian work and Money for their countrymen like many superrich do in the US?

Why doesn't the goverment propose a flat 35% special tax for emergencies on all foreign accounts? The way we in Germany have been paying to integrate east Germany since unification?

Why not confiscate money from the greek church that doesn't pay tax and has accumulated wealth from the greeks for centuries...etc...

Even Russia doesn't seem to be interested in getting  financially involved and they could easily help by lifting sanctions on greek products like apricots, cheese and olive Oli. Russia is a huge market for greece, it would really help them and be real money from real business, not another loan.

There is a lot they can do and focus on instead of asking for money from outsiders and then of course hoping that all these loans will be cancelled later.

Nobody believes they have any intention of paying anything they get now back.

But the greek people voted for them and all the previous governments, so until there is a genuine people's movement to fight corruption nothing will change.

I mean, they could all start by putting their money back into their banks and only take out what they really need.

Show solidarity with your own country and put your money into it.

In south korea people sold their gold and their jewelry to help their country. You can always do things yourself if you are really proud and love your community.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 10:30 by cobalt »

Semmick Photo

« Reply #204 on: June 30, 2015, 11:35 »
+1
Good post again

« Reply #205 on: June 30, 2015, 14:10 »
+3
very good post.

 i think in greece 10% population does not pay taxes at all, i think germany should lead all tax offices in country.



I am not here to write an essay.

Here is the essay you didn't write, probably written by a desperate Greek:

"Dear Fellow Europeans,
Austrians, Belgians, Bulgarians, Croats, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Estonians, Fins, French, Germans, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Luxembourgians Maltese, Dutch, Pols, Portuguese, Romanians, Slovaks, Slovenians, Spaniards, Swedes and British,
Please allow me to explain to you what has been happening to my country in the last few months and how a group of left wing fanatic ideologues, extremists and opportunists, allied with racists, anti-Semites and neo-* have been leading my nation towards an economic and political Armageddon.
On January 25, after 5 years of economic recession, two bailout packages by the European Union (EU), the European Central Bank (ECB) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), an unprecedented unemployment rate that today exceeds 27% and a significant loss of the average household income, the Greek people (unwisely) decided to vote into power the Radical Left party of SYRIZA. SYRIZA is comprised of Marxist, Stalinist, Trotskyist and Maoist Communists, Anarchists, lots of opportunists without a clear ideology and Socialists, leftovers from the, once powerful, Socialist party of Greece. Before the elections, SYRIZA exceeded in populism any political campaign in living memory. They literally promised everything to everyone. They took advantage of peoples despair and anger against the traditional, mainstream political parties that are, to a large extend, responsible for the Greek economic crisis. However, in every chance, they confirmed that they would not risk the countrys membership in the Eurozone and the EU. The partys leader and current Prime Minister, Mr Tsipras, in his teens and early twenties, was a member of the Orthodox-Stalinist Communist party of Greece and has not work a single day of his life.
His coalition government partner is a right wing, extreme populist, anti-Semitic, racist, homophobic, psychopathic party, the Independent Greeks, led by an insane fellow who believes in Chemtrails and other conspiracy theories (I kid you not!). He also believes that Greece can seek financial support from countries, such as Russia, China and Iran.
Before 2010, these parties would barely enter parliament reaching the 3% threshold of the popular vote. Exactly like in Germany in the interwar perion and for the same reason (an economic depression), extreme parties have flourished and populism has triumphed in Greece. SYRIZA became the first party with 36% of the popular vote and the Independent Greeks gained another 5%, giving them a parliamentary majority.
What followed was 5 months of so-called negotiations, during which the Minister of Finance, Mr Yanis Varoufakis, a Professor of Economics, specialized in Game Theory and an endless appetite for personal publicity, changed his position on a weekly basis and proposed to the Eurogroup (the Eurozone Finance Ministers assembly) unachievable economic targets for an economy that was back into recession after a trimester of economic growth in late 2014. In the meantime, in Greece, the coalition government increased public spending by hiring thousands people into the public sector. This completely derailed the economy and resulted in a deficit of more than 5 billion euros. Additionally, there was a widespread media campaign to present the EU, the ECB and the IMF as bloodthirsty monsters that hate the Greek people and wish to starve and humiliate us. A lot of people in Greece actually BELIEVE that this is the true intention of our EU partners!
Political parties, politicians, journalists or even regular citizens, like myself, who defend a United Europe and wish us a part of the Eurozone are characterized as traitors and enemies of the people.
On Friday, June 26, Mr Tsipras, after failing to reach a compromise with the EU and the IMF, called a snap referendum for Sunday, July 5, in which he is asking the people to vote YES or NO to the following question: Do you approve the technical proposal of the Creditors of Greece (The EU, ECB and IMF) for the extension of the bailout programme? This proposal, submitted to the Greek government a few days ago, includes reduction of public spending, increase of the VAT and liberal economic reforms. Keep in mind that increased taxation was proposed to our Creditors by the Greek government itself. The question of the referendum is dishonest and deceiving. The average citizen, misinformed and confused from five months of conflicting information and the anti-European rhetoric of the coalition government, largely unaware of the dire situation of the economy and the consequences of his vote, angry by increased taxes and pension cuts, will naturally vote NO. The actual question that needs to be answered is whether the people want the country in the Euro with reforms or a National Currency without reforms. Of course the coalition government will not put the real question to the vote, they would never take responsibility, they will always blame the others.
What the Greek government does with this referendum is nothing less than a political extortion towards the entire EU. On Saturday, June 27, this extortion was put on a vote in the Greek parliament and won a majority support by the MPs of the Radical Left party, its right-wing populist partner and the far-right racist Neo-Nazi party, Golden Dawn (the shame of my country, or at least one of the recent shames). This broad anti-European coalition is officially leading my country into the abyss of extremism, populism, international isolation and bankruptcy. This should not come as a total surprise. Mr Tsipras and many SYRIZA party-members have declared, more than once, that Venezuela should serve as a model of Democracy for Greece. SYRIZA recognizes its ideological counterparts in Latin-American Socialist semi-dictatorships.
Mr Tsipras and his party, together with their lunatic partners, deceived the Greek people with false promises and stole the popular vote. They then bombarded the public with a coordinated anti-European campaign of lies. Now, they are playing their last card to take Greece out of the Eurozone and the European Union. This is their target. This was their target from the beginning. They are not Democrats, they are Fascists. They were always Fascists. And they want to bring down Democracy in its birthplace.
Please share this message and inform your friends about what is really happening in Greece and what is at stake.
Constantinos Kyriakis"
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 14:20 by Cesar »

« Reply #206 on: June 30, 2015, 14:49 »
0


Well as you started writing in "GO Greece" topic and upsetting people which are in "GO Greece" mood the only one that can fit into troll definition among two of us  is you isnt that so ?

But I wont be doing any accusations that you are one of the of Merkel-Schultz hypnotized zombies and i sincerely believe that one day you will find strength and open your eyes  :)

Peace

It is perfectly normal to say "Don't Go Greece" in a "Go Greece" topic while backing-up statements with facts and documents, instead of emotions, speculations and conspiracy theories.

I rather think that trolls are those who follow their own agenda, by bringing their omnipresent Anti-EU, Anti-NATO, Anti-US, Anti-democracy fixations, Ukraine, the ruble and the Russian customs union in a "Go Greece" Topic.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 14:53 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #207 on: June 30, 2015, 14:56 »
+3
I guess would probably be ok in that case to unite corporations with interest in Greece and finance and organize a new revolution in and implement a new EU controlled puppets government putting the "democratic" will of a nation at second plan. They obviously voted wrongly and the Ukrainian scenario should be repeated. What a hell lets say that the elections were a set up. Its better for them , we all know it and we have long term experience in that field anyway.

Then lets scare them, let them clearly know that if the vote in anti-European direction on referendum that the revenge will be huge. Yes lets play on fear card and show them a though fist of democracy. After all don't they remember it was all ok when they had pro European government which never played any role in any of those insane loans that they took which scientifically proved CANNOT be repaid, not in Greece case only but in case of basically all countries in the world. Nobody will pay those loans off...NEVER. Hoever thinks Italy will ever repay the loans is in huge mistake, its way way more likely that the country will stop existing as such.

Somebody needs to step in front of those hungry people waiting for their medicines which are long gone and openly say  that in case that they don't accept to work until death with 35 taxes and without basic social rights somewhere someone will loose 2% of something.

Man we are pushing the new loans in their pockets to repay the old ones and make them bigger and they dare to reject that.  Are they aware that they wont even repay the next loans but their children will and they wont be able anyway so all they got to loose is more social rights for the generations that are not even born.


And I wouldn't base my opinion on payed  internet posts of opponent party youth anyway because anyone with at least piece of a brain can guess the will of majority and the outcome of incoming referendum and EU knows it. Thats why they are acting like fly with diarrhea.



   

« Reply #208 on: June 30, 2015, 14:58 »
+3


Well as you started writing in "GO Greece" topic and upsetting people which are in "GO Greece" mood the only one that can fit into troll definition among two of us  is you isnt that so ?

But I wont be doing any accusations that you are one of the of Merkel-Schultz hypnotized zombies and i sincerely believe that one day you will find strength and open your eyes  :)

Peace

It is perfectly normal to say "Don't Go Greece" in a "Go Greece" topic while backing-up statements with facts and documents, instead of emotions, speculations and conspiracy theories.

I rather think that trolls are those who follow their own agenda, by bringing their omnipresent Anti-EU, Anti-NATO, Anti-US, Anti-democracy fixations, Ukraine, the ruble and the Russian customs union in a "Go Greece" Topic.

Sorry you were trolling and started to mention Putin at first place and if anti European Union statement in society with freedom of speech  means trolling to you then you need help.

Peace

« Reply #209 on: June 30, 2015, 16:37 »
+2


Well as you started writing in "GO Greece" topic and upsetting people which are in "GO Greece" mood the only one that can fit into troll definition among two of us  is you isnt that so ?

But I wont be doing any accusations that you are one of the of Merkel-Schultz hypnotized zombies and i sincerely believe that one day you will find strength and open your eyes  :)

Peace

It is perfectly normal to say "Don't Go Greece" in a "Go Greece" topic while backing-up statements with facts and documents, instead of emotions, speculations and conspiracy theories.

I rather think that trolls are those who follow their own agenda, by bringing their omnipresent Anti-EU, Anti-NATO, Anti-US, Anti-democracy fixations, Ukraine, the ruble and the Russian customs union in a "Go Greece" Topic.

Sorry you were trolling and started to mention Putin at first place and if anti European Union statement in society with freedom of speech  means trolling to you then you need help.

Peace

Wrong.
Your friend, Titus mentioned Putin first, then the russian customs union, NATO and the ruble in the same sentence. Then something about the Americans helping Greece to stay outside the soviet influence.
Then you go and post NATO maps in a "Go Greece" post, after having the same NATO fixation in a topic about the commercial photography in EU:

Quote
You are writing about removing possibilities of future wars, man they got us at the gates of the next one deploying nuclear bases all around the place at this same time

You are of course free to rant against EU on any given topic opened on this forum.

And some "help" clarifications: those brainwashed by decades of socialist propaganda are the ones who need help. Unfortunately, it takes at least a generation to reboot some mindsets.
Those unable to stand on their own feet in a free economy, those who consider themselves entitled to government handouts, those who expect their government to give them jobs, those who expect their debts erased , those who expect to be paid no matter how efficient, competitive or productive their work is, those unwilling to move to find a better job, those are the people who need "help". Help to realize that they need to reboot their thinking...
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 17:16 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #210 on: June 30, 2015, 17:23 »
+1
Nothing new. This is what will happen in Greece, if the banks will collapse: a barter based economy. A primitive economy. People will pay each other in raw products and services

In your clip: all these people will not be 100 dollars richer, but they will all realise that, in fact, they had no debt. That 100 bill helped them realize that, by closing the debt circle. Without it, they will continue to harass each other for their 1 on 1 debts, when, in fact, all of them were debt free. They could have easily settled their debts by getting all in the same room. But that will be rather hard to do, if the circle is bigger, with many more than 4 or 5 people involved in the transaction.

This is why money, a common denominator, is better than barter.

This is what banks do, indeed.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


Supposed to be ironic.  For reference, the clip is an actor portraying one of the bankers primarily responsible for the meltdown in Ireland - in other words the kind of smoke  & mirrors thinking that caused the problem rather than folks actually getting richer.

« Reply #211 on: June 30, 2015, 18:50 »
+2


Well as you started writing in "GO Greece" topic and upsetting people which are in "GO Greece" mood the only one that can fit into troll definition among two of us  is you isnt that so ?

But I wont be doing any accusations that you are one of the of Merkel-Schultz hypnotized zombies and i sincerely believe that one day you will find strength and open your eyes  :)

Peace

It is perfectly normal to say "Don't Go Greece" in a "Go Greece" topic while backing-up statements with facts and documents, instead of emotions, speculations and conspiracy theories.

I rather think that trolls are those who follow their own agenda, by bringing their omnipresent Anti-EU, Anti-NATO, Anti-US, Anti-democracy fixations, Ukraine, the ruble and the Russian customs union in a "Go Greece" Topic.

Sorry you were trolling and started to mention Putin at first place and if anti European Union statement in society with freedom of speech  means trolling to you then you need help.

Peace

Wrong.
Your friend, Titus mentioned Putin first, then the russian customs union, NATO and the ruble in the same sentence. Then something about the Americans helping Greece to stay outside the soviet influence.
Then you go and post NATO maps in a "Go Greece" post, after having the same NATO fixation in a topic about the commercial photography in EU:

Quote
You are writing about removing possibilities of future wars, man they got us at the gates of the next one deploying nuclear bases all around the place at this same time

You are of course free to rant against EU on any given topic opened on this forum.

And some "help" clarifications: those brainwashed by decades of socialist propaganda are the ones who need help. Unfortunately, it takes at least a generation to reboot some mindsets.
Those unable to stand on their own feet in a free economy, those who consider themselves entitled to government handouts, those who expect their government to give them jobs, those who expect their debts erased , those who expect to be paid no matter how efficient, competitive or productive their work is, those unwilling to move to find a better job, those are the people who need "help". Help to realize that they need to reboot their thinking...

Firstly of all you were quoting me...

Next...your mindset its obviously not able to comprehend my political standings and you keep loosing yourself trying to sort me into a category... you can never understand it with your current mindset trapped in the illusion that there is a honest political solution because there is not.

Will just quote Einstein on that : "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it" and that's about it.

You my friend are holding the side that is creating problems for all people including yourself and you highest opponents are keeping the balance on the other side doing the same as you keep accusing each others and your political opponents puppet idols for the current state and as Tesla was saying, you are really looking ironic and desperate from wider perspectives.





fritz

  • I love Tom and Jerry music

« Reply #212 on: June 30, 2015, 19:50 »
+4
If they get the drachme back, they can devalue it or print as much money as they like.

Isn't this part of chinas success? Keeping their currency low so the world keeps buying their products and their already low wages are even cheaper than they should be so they keep all the jobs?

I wonder if bulgaria or lithuania or poland held a referendum, to ask if they should send greece more money, would the greeks accept the democratic decisions of other european countries?

The UK doesn't have the euro because they decided it didn't work for them.

However, the biggest problem is the lack of a basically functioning state.

If the greeks themselves don't trust their own banks and remove all their money, why should the rest of the World loan them money?

If the greeks don't trust their state and don't pay their taxes, why should other countries tax money go there?

Why don't the greek billionaire's step up with humanitarian work and Money for their countrymen like many superrich do in the US?

Why doesn't the goverment propose a flat 35% special tax for emergencies on all foreign accounts? The way we in Germany have been paying to integrate east Germany since unification?

Why not confiscate money from the greek church that doesn't pay tax and has accumulated wealth from the greeks for centuries...etc...

Even Russia doesn't seem to be interested in getting  financially involved and they could easily help by lifting sanctions on greek products like apricots, cheese and olive Oli. Russia is a huge market for greece, it would really help them and be real money from real business, not another loan.

There is a lot they can do and focus on instead of asking for money from outsiders and then of course hoping that all these loans will be cancelled later.

Nobody believes they have any intention of paying anything they get now back.

But the greek people voted for them and all the previous governments, so until there is a genuine people's movement to fight corruption nothing will change.

I mean, they could all start by putting their money back into their banks and only take out what they really need.

Show solidarity with your own country and put your money into it.

In south korea people sold their gold and their jewelry to help their country. You can always do things yourself if you are really proud and love your community.

Well,I'm afraid it's not that simple!
Do rich people need poor people in order to remain rich?

In a globalised world, economies are interdependent. A trade surplus in an exporting country implies a trade deficit in an importing one, if, as was the case with Greece and the rest of the Eurozone, the exporting countries adopt policies to diminish the economic potential of their rivals. Economic crises therefore require collective solutions rather than the beggar-my-neighbour policies Germany and the Troika are opting for at present.
At the moment the Troika is actively preventing Greece from sorting out its economy by enforcing austerity, which is having a negative effect on growth rates. Because Greece doesnt have its own central bank it cant use monetary policy to escape recession, so what the government has been asking for in negotiations with the Troika is debt relief which would allow it to invest in economic growth. But the Eurozone as a whole has rejected these standard Keynesian policies in favour of harsh cuts to investment and public services.
This idea ignores the structural reasons for Greeces borrowing. All countries borrow money to invest in their economies and compete in the world economy. By 2009 the smaller Eurozone economies Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain were all burdened with massive debts because their borrowing failed to make them more competitive. As Costas Lapavitsas has shown, the reason for this is simple: the German government froze wages so as to out-compete countries like Greece. Given its superior economic and technological starting point, Germany was always going to win if its wages were low enough. Greece therefore built up a big trade deficit which was proportional to the German trade surplus. So Greek borrowing was actively encouraged by Germany which is now demanding Greece shoulder the blame for what was a failure of the entire Eurozone.

For someone to be RICH, someone else MUST be POOR. Simple as that
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 20:15 by fritz »

« Reply #213 on: June 30, 2015, 23:25 »
+3
If they get the drachme back, they can devalue it or print as much money as they like.

Isn't this part of chinas success? Keeping their currency low so the world keeps buying their products and their already low wages are even cheaper than they should be so they keep all the jobs?

I wonder if bulgaria or lithuania or poland held a referendum, to ask if they should send greece more money, would the greeks accept the democratic decisions of other european countries?

The UK doesn't have the euro because they decided it didn't work for them.

However, the biggest problem is the lack of a basically functioning state.

If the greeks themselves don't trust their own banks and remove all their money, why should the rest of the World loan them money?

If the greeks don't trust their state and don't pay their taxes, why should other countries tax money go there?

Why don't the greek billionaire's step up with humanitarian work and Money for their countrymen like many superrich do in the US?

Why doesn't the goverment propose a flat 35% special tax for emergencies on all foreign accounts? The way we in Germany have been paying to integrate east Germany since unification?

Why not confiscate money from the greek church that doesn't pay tax and has accumulated wealth from the greeks for centuries...etc...

Even Russia doesn't seem to be interested in getting  financially involved and they could easily help by lifting sanctions on greek products like apricots, cheese and olive Oli. Russia is a huge market for greece, it would really help them and be real money from real business, not another loan.

There is a lot they can do and focus on instead of asking for money from outsiders and then of course hoping that all these loans will be cancelled later.

Nobody believes they have any intention of paying anything they get now back.

But the greek people voted for them and all the previous governments, so until there is a genuine people's movement to fight corruption nothing will change.

I mean, they could all start by putting their money back into their banks and only take out what they really need.

Show solidarity with your own country and put your money into it.

In south korea people sold their gold and their jewelry to help their country. You can always do things yourself if you are really proud and love your community.

Well,I'm afraid it's not that simple!
Do rich people need poor people in order to remain rich?

In a globalised world, economies are interdependent. A trade surplus in an exporting country implies a trade deficit in an importing one, if, as was the case with Greece and the rest of the Eurozone, the exporting countries adopt policies to diminish the economic potential of their rivals. Economic crises therefore require collective solutions rather than the beggar-my-neighbour policies Germany and the Troika are opting for at present.
At the moment the Troika is actively preventing Greece from sorting out its economy by enforcing austerity, which is having a negative effect on growth rates. Because Greece doesnt have its own central bank it cant use monetary policy to escape recession, so what the government has been asking for in negotiations with the Troika is debt relief which would allow it to invest in economic growth. But the Eurozone as a whole has rejected these standard Keynesian policies in favour of harsh cuts to investment and public services.
This idea ignores the structural reasons for Greeces borrowing. All countries borrow money to invest in their economies and compete in the world economy. By 2009 the smaller Eurozone economies Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain were all burdened with massive debts because their borrowing failed to make them more competitive. As Costas Lapavitsas has shown, the reason for this is simple: the German government froze wages so as to out-compete countries like Greece. Given its superior economic and technological starting point, Germany was always going to win if its wages were low enough. Greece therefore built up a big trade deficit which was proportional to the German trade surplus. So Greek borrowing was actively encouraged by Germany which is now demanding Greece shoulder the blame for what was a failure of the entire Eurozone.

For someone to be RICH, someone else MUST be POOR. Simple as that

Great analysis by fritz - some people here are talking ideologically, defending moves of the European Union - those are brainwashed by decades of poor western propaganda , and there is no help.

- btw - two Nobel prize winners in economy - P. Krugman and J.Stiglic - just recommended voting OXI - NO on Greek referendum...
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 23:27 by ferdinand »

Semmick Photo

« Reply #214 on: July 01, 2015, 02:16 »
+1
Well, Greece missed the deadline to repay the IMF and the people of Greece are protesting against the government for the lies they were told. Seems the people want to stay in Europe. The saga continues.

Justanotherphotographer

« Reply #215 on: July 01, 2015, 02:41 »
+2
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html

"the Greek government was spending beyond its means in the late 2000s. But since then it has repeatedly slashed spending and raised taxes. Government employment has fallen more than 25 percent, and pensions (which were indeed much too generous) have been cut sharply. If you add up all the austerity measures, they have been more than enough to eliminate the original deficit and turn it into a large surplus.

So why didnt this happen? Because the Greek economy collapsed, largely as a result of those very austerity measures, dragging revenues down with it."


"...acceding to the troikas ultimatum would represent the final abandonment of any pretense of Greek independence. Dont be taken in by claims that troika officials are just technocrats explaining to the ignorant Greeks what must be done. These supposed technocrats are in fact fantasists who have disregarded everything we know about macroeconomics, and have been wrong every step of the way. This isnt about analysis, its about power the power of the creditors to pull the plug on the Greek economy, which persists as long as euro exit is considered unthinkable."
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 02:43 by Justanotherphotographer »

Semmick Photo

« Reply #216 on: July 01, 2015, 03:01 »
+5
Raising taxes doesnt do any good if the people arent paying them in the first place.

« Reply #217 on: July 01, 2015, 03:43 »
+3
Raising taxes doesnt do any good if the people arent paying them in the first place.

Nothing good ever comes out of raising taxes.

Justanotherphotographer

« Reply #218 on: July 01, 2015, 03:49 »
+2
Most Greeks get taxes taken straight out their pay-cheques like everyone else. A lot of Greeks who are in businesses where they can take cash do, and avoid the taxes. Guess what? a lot of people in the UK do that too. But when people are suffering it just makes some feel better if they deserve it more than anyone else I guess.

When they think their banks are about to fail Greeks are likely pull their money out causing it to be a self fulfilling prophesy. You know who else would act like that? Everyone. That's why the UK government also acted to stop a run on the banks with Northen Rock, because the reality is that the few who leave the their money in really are likely to be left with nothing. That's how the system works I'm afraid. Capitalism is based on everyone acting selfishly yet we blame people when they feel they have to play game they find themselves in just to survive. Meanwhile of course the banks themselves and companies in general have always acted in the same in the same way. Whatever, I just hope the Greeks can find a way out from under this mess.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 04:31 by Justanotherphotographer »

Tror

« Reply #219 on: July 01, 2015, 05:38 »
+1
Interesting watch for those who are really interested....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRDL0JzNt4o

...people like this are not trustworthy, yet are allowed to be in power:

http://www.businessinsider.com/juncker-financial-markets-false-denial-2011-5
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 05:42 by Tror »

StockPhotosArt.com

« Reply #220 on: July 01, 2015, 05:48 »
+2
Raising taxes doesnt do any good if the people arent paying them in the first place.

Nothing good ever comes out of raising taxes.

The most the taxes are raised, the most people will try to evade them because they begin to feel unfair. So, raising taxes too much has the contrary effect it intends to.

Especially if the people are already disagreeing with the way those taxes are being used, like feeding doubtful foundations, superfluous public works with dodgy contracts that never meet the initial budgets and events and luxuries to the political class (government and opposition), while the services to the population are being cut in healthcare, education, protection in the unemployment, pensions and so on.

The only thing it ends up making is to punish those that actually pay them, by principle or because they cannot evade them.

I recently witnessed a situation where a family member had to repair is (15 year old) car because the public transports are next to none in the area he lives, he now has a newborn baby that needs to go to doctor appointments, and his wife is unemployed. Upon the payment he asked for the bill so he could introduce it in his tax expenses and the mechanic told him that if he wanted an invoice for the taxes he would have to charge an additional 23% for the state (not to the mechanic).

Well, you guessed he didn't pay for the tax because it would raise the expense too much for what he could pay at the moment. He wanted to pay, he just couldn't.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 06:29 by StockPhotosArt »

Tror

« Reply #221 on: July 01, 2015, 05:59 »
+4
Raising taxes doesnt do any good if the people arent paying them in the first place.

Nothing good ever comes out of raising taxes.

The most the taxes are raised, the most people will try to evade them because they begin to feel unfair. So, raising taxes to much has the contrary effect it intends to.


I fully agree. Especially in the EU taxes are way to high and governments seem to think they are in charge to control peoples lives.

Most entrepreneurs I met in the last 20 years did not care so much if the pay 16% taxes or 12% or 22%, but in the EU every entrepreneur acting as a natural person has to pay in most countries about 50% - 70% (taxes + social security). Especially the so called "social security contribution" could be seen as scam as many governments do not deliver promised services yet charge you a huge percentage of your income. In many countries e.g. healthcare, pensions etc. do not work and are practically non-existent.

Yesterday I stood as a pedestrian in front of a red light of a avenue in a big northern EU city. There was no traffic. People had been waiting...looking at the red light, the empty street, hesitating....then they startet to cross at red. Most people want to do things "right". They start to evade or violate the rules when they make no sense, not because they have a bad character.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 06:10 by Tror »

« Reply #222 on: July 01, 2015, 14:09 »
+1
I am from Portugal.
In Portugal, the current government is formed by a center right party (PSD) and a right party (PP)
There is no extreme right party in the parlament. They exist (PNR) but they never get enough votes to get there, fortunately.

In some months, the new elections will be between PSD/PP or PS (center-left party). It is always like that in Portugal. Most of the people here see politics like football. If they are PSD, they vote PSD. If they are PS, they vote PS. So it is always between PS and PSD.

I don't know if the economy is recovering or not here. I just know that the house market is recovering (but right now, a lot of chinese are buying houses in Portugal, so it is hard to conclude anything). I bought an house 2 years ago for a very cheap price because of the crisis, and I know that right now I would not buy it so cheap.
Luckily, here in Portugal, a big majority of families are the owner of their own house and parents and grand-parents were able (and still are) to help the young. So even if it was hard, we were able to manage the crisis. What is most scary, I believe, is looking at the future.
The portuguese public spending seems controlled right now, but many decisions that the government made were unpopulist and controversial.

About Greece, I would not like to see them leave the euro. But these months, I waited to see what the greek prime minister would do and honestly I only see him and the finance minister interested of taking part of a big brother show. TV, VIP magazines... I saw a few days ago the list of their political plans that they presented to EC/ECB/IMF, and could not believe my eyes. Most of them where so basic, they should have been done right away when they were elected! They are only losing a lot of time and greek people will pay for their delay.

They seems like 2 little kids...

But all of this is EU fault mainly. For years they were all smiling, saying "it is ok" "everything is alright". They waited for the last minute to admit that there was a huge problem with the countries debts, with the help of and protecting some major banks and other financial institutions.

« Reply #223 on: July 01, 2015, 14:22 »
+1
wow!
1,102,893EUR
raised by 64,355 people in 3 days

https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html

« Reply #224 on: July 01, 2015, 17:11 »
+2
...But all of this is EU fault mainly. For years they were all smiling, saying "it is ok" "everything is alright". They waited for the last minute to admit that there was a huge problem with the countries debts, with the help of and protecting some major banks and other financial institutions.
Not just the EU, look at the debt in other countries like the US and Japan.  They have much bigger debts than Greece but have got away with it so far, probably because they have their own currency.


 

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