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Author Topic: GO Greece!  (Read 83203 times)

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« Reply #300 on: July 05, 2015, 11:18 »
+5
Basically:

- they didn't repay the 1.6 millions they should have in the June 30th to the IMF,
- they didn't do nothing considerable since they were elected to combat corruption and tax evasion, to increase income taxes and lower the public expenses,
- their country is in recession since they were elected,
- they want more debt restructuring,
- they want more money (!!!)
- they don't want to increment changes in their country (like everything is ok, right!)

looking good  8)


« Reply #301 on: July 05, 2015, 11:51 »
+1
Quote
For a truth democracy, all the people in the eurozone should now vote in a referendum if they agree with the future new decisions, whatever they are.
I thought i had read everything until i saw this.
Other countries to vote whether or not the internal decisions affecting a country should be applied and be executed through its own institutions or not?
Do you realize what is the Eurozone exactly (by its own standards not mine) and what is happening in the world in general?
I mean the basics of the Eurozone constitution?
Do you reazile what is it that makes a country, a country in the Eurozone, and not just some piece of land belonging to a country called Europe (Europe is not a country,yet) .
Does your country have its own courts and parliament or they have suddenly moved to Brussels?
Guys seriously this is no joke.

« Reply #302 on: July 05, 2015, 11:59 »
+4
Basically:

- they didn't repay the 1.6 millions they should have in the June 30th to the IMF,
- they didn't do nothing considerable since they were elected to combat corruption and tax evasion, to increase income taxes and lower the public expenses,
- their country is in recession since they were elected,
- they want more debt restructuring,
- they want more money (!!!)
- they don't want to increment changes in their country (like everything is ok, right!)

looking good  8)

Moreover has anyone bothered to understand what Varoufakis' miraculous recovery plan is?

I just watched one of his conferences.
Basically he wants a piece of my private savings!

He is concerned that, in some parts of Europe, people have the tendency to save more. He calls these savings "untapped resources".
He says that he is not talking about public, but private money.
He says that he wants the ECB to stimulate the flow of those saving into bonds and those bonds to be used in growing the Greek economy.

1. He forgets that, after all, "public money" is not different that "private money", since it comes from private citizens who pay their taxes.
2. These savings might be untapped resources, indeed, but it is not his business what I do with my money and who I trust with it!
Let ME "tap" my own resources.
If I want riskier investments, I could always find better deals than seeing my hard earned savings risked in a Greek blackhole, under a government unwilling to restrain its spending.

All these leftist economist believe that if you throw money into an unsustainable economy, it will magically get better. No, it will not! Not without structural reforms.

To keep it simple, if you don't sell your photos on Shutterstock, borrowing money to buy more fancy cameras and lenses, will (most probably) not improve your sales. You better get your s**t together and improve your photography skills first!

« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 12:14 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #303 on: July 05, 2015, 12:23 »
+2
Quote
All these leftist economist believe that if you throw money into a unsustainable economy, it will magically get better. No, it will not! Not without structural reforms.

To keep it simple, if you don't sell your photos on Shutterstock, borrowing money to buy more fancy cameras and lenses, will most probably not improve your sales. You better get your s**t together and improve your photography skills first!

Part 1.Throwing money in an "unsustainable hole" (because of the public debt, the newly discovered boogeyman of the post 1998 economy) is exactly what the eurozone forces the Greek government to do and we are forced to under the monetary policy.You are totally confused here.You havent understood anything about the Eurozone's monetary policy yet you embark on this conversation with convenient half truths at best and expect people to continue this conversation seriously.Have you seen charts of Germany's public debt (its HUGE) and have you understood why or how this is conveniently hidden "in a closet" and makes Germany act like they can dictate the monetary policy to others and not themselves?because if they do hang tight.
Ill help you understand this by giving hints.What upsets Merkel if Greece leaves the Eurozone and why?If Spain were to leave what would happen?If italy had capitals controls who would interest from that and who wouldn't?

Part 2. To keep it simple?You make the hillarious fallacy that everyone who has no knowledge of politics and economy makes.You confuse a nation's economics with an individuals economics.
Hints to embark further.
Countries do NOT default.Individuals and corporations do.Banks do or did until 2008.Why is that?


So structural reforms are politics and public debt and borrowing is economics right?
Wrong.
Both are politics.When i said in another thread that these moronic neoliberals in Brussels dream of a neo-feudal Europe i wasnt joking.

Semmick Photo

« Reply #304 on: July 05, 2015, 12:33 »
+1
Why do the few  people here defending the Greeks constantly attack the person who doesn't agree with them,  instead of the comment. I've seen Cobalt talk more sense than anyone else in the last 3 pages.

Speak for yourself and dont try to encapsulate (conveniently) who talks more sense here, and who gets attacked by whom and for what reason.
You are the one in this thread that steps in and tries to moderate the conversation when you feel that is steering away from the general consensus.
I know that you like cobalt's views but thats your business and if cobalt or anyone else posting here makes sense or not that here is for us(EDIT:for "ME to judge" is more appropriate)  to judge,this conversation is not a live political debate.


You never go off topic dragging P5 into every conversation, right? You never have a squabble with anyone, right?

Anyway, carry on, the playground is yours.

This thread is about Greece. If you want to talk about Portugal, its best to open a new thread. Please.
t
  thank you for proving my point.

And Are you now showing a quote from me trying to keep the thread on topic and twisting that into something it's not?

My my

« Reply #305 on: July 05, 2015, 12:50 »
+2
Why do the few  people here defending the Greeks constantly attack the person who doesn't agree with them,  instead of the comment. I've seen Cobalt talk more sense than anyone else in the last 3 pages.

Speak for yourself and dont try to encapsulate (conveniently) who talks more sense here, and who gets attacked by whom and for what reason.
You are the one in this thread that steps in and tries to moderate the conversation when you feel that is steering away from the general consensus.
I know that you like cobalt's views but thats your business and if cobalt or anyone else posting here makes sense or not that here is for us(EDIT:for "ME to judge" is more appropriate)  to judge,this conversation is not a live political debate.


You never go off topic dragging P5 into every conversation, right? You never have a squabble with anyone, right?

Anyway, carry on, the playground is yours.

This thread is about Greece. If you want to talk about Portugal, its best to open a new thread. Please.
t
  thank you for proving my point.

And Are you now showing a quote from me trying to keep the thread on topic and twisting that into something it's not?

My my

Are we playing a game of verbal ping pong here,or is this personal to you for some reason that i cannon comprehend?
Is this a thumbs up war? because it looks like so.
Quoting me and saying that im just doing the same thing as you did just proves my point as well,but i am not acting as a moderator here or defending/cheerleading others.
Again stop being anyone's lawyer.
You could just as easily explain why germany's debt got a "haircut" then and why not now (or would it now if there is/was one?) but you have jumped in this thread in defcon mode from the start
spewing ignorance and coveted hate disguised as realistic opinion and knowledge.
No wonder this thread feels and is extremely one-sided.

« Reply #306 on: July 05, 2015, 12:51 »
+2
@cobalt

... politically naive -  to be precise -

..fritz already explained it - endless loans are sophisticated way of occupation...
Please explain why they have asked for all those loans and still want more then.  At some point when you keep borrowing money, you have to take responsibility for your own debt.  They could of got out of the mess they created but now they have the option to print their own currency and that looks like all they have left now.

Titus Livius

« Reply #307 on: July 05, 2015, 13:12 »
+1
Varoufakis is a bellend. He's called the measures  of the eurogroup terrorism. At the same time he expects them to give him more money. He's a bellend.

and yet i've the feeling he's making history.

the latest exit polls say the NO are over 60% so it's getting very funny now ... will greece embrace the BRICs and Russia ? will they find a last minute deal with Germany ? or it will all bust into a greek tragedy ?

interesting times ahead, this is a big smack in the face of the eurocrats and they will seek revenge as soon as possible just to teach a lesson to anyone else willing to play the same game.


Titus Livius

« Reply #308 on: July 05, 2015, 13:14 »
+3
I mean, they elected him and Tsirpas. If things get worse, who will be next?

the only option would be a military Junta or a neo-fascist government led by the far right (Golden Dawn).

but don't worry, Syriza now is very popular, Putin is keeping a low profile but you can bet they already promised greece any kind of monetary aid in case of serious troubles so they know their ass is covered no matter the outcome of this farce.


Titus Livius

« Reply #309 on: July 05, 2015, 13:22 »
+2
Please explain why they have asked for all those loans and still want more then.  At some point when you keep borrowing money, you have to take responsibility for your own debt.  They could of got out of the mess they created but now they have the option to print their own currency and that looks like all they have left now.

England did exactly the same a few centuries ago, bankrupting the italian bankers and crashing the whole banking system, after that they also created the Bank of England and the rest is history.

Argentina went in defaut and is having it rough but they're still alive, Zimbabwe/Rhodesia is in bad shape but still there ...

all these forecasts about imminent doom and gloom are totally overblown especially considering how much the world is different nowadays and how quickly money and goods can be moved in and out of a country.

the BRICs, the SCO, and the new banking system launched by China were designed precisely to counteract the EU/US/NATO grip, it's logical that they will welcome greece with open arms, just as Nato did in the 50s when greece was third world.


Tror

« Reply #310 on: July 05, 2015, 13:26 »
+7
I hope they vote for freedom. And it looks like that.

This whole EU non-sense did enough damage, not only to Greece. Greece: 60% unemployment amongst the youth, Spain: 50%, Portugal 33%, in Germany you see people looking for food in the Trash - not just the typical homeless, but old people, retired ones in good clothes, surveillance everywhere, freedom gets restricted on all sides for the benefit of some bankers, cash payments got meanwhile limited by law in Italy, France and Spain (Limits between 1000 and 3000 ), in one country (so far, in Cyprus), people got expropriated on their savings, other countries do not plan anymore to join the zone (Bulgaria, Hungary is doubting,....)...enough, I`d say.

Meanwhile, in Switzerland, Norway, Iceland,...economies are healthy and doing well...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 13:31 by Tror »

« Reply #311 on: July 05, 2015, 13:30 »
+4
I mean, they elected him and Tsirpas. If things get worse, who will be next?

the only option would be a military Junta or a neo-fascist government led by the far right (Golden Dawn).

but don't worry, Syriza now is very popular, Putin is keeping a low profile but you can bet they already promised greece any kind of monetary aid in case of serious troubles so they know their ass is covered no matter the outcome of this farce.

You would think that by now people have realized that living in dictatorship is nothing to desire. And yet here is a country that seems to be walking with glowing eyes toward it.

It was clever the way they made their "referendum" so short term. All the greeks that live abroad didnt have enough time to go back to vote and apparently calling half the population that wanted to vote "yes" as undemocratic traitors really worked.

But it is a decision by the Greek population. So they will live with their decision.

I just hope my money is not going there. There are so many places in Europe and the world where it can do more good. They even called the loans from my tax money "terrorism".

They should be ashamed of themselves, especially because they see all the refugees from Syria, Yemen, or Afghanistan who really live under terrorism.




« Reply #312 on: July 05, 2015, 13:33 »
+1

Meanwhile, in Switzerland, Norway, Iceland,...economies are healthy and doing well...

Greece the next Switzerland...of course, of course, we will all go and trust our money to Greek banks...just like the greek population.

Tror

« Reply #313 on: July 05, 2015, 13:35 »
+4

I just hope my money is not going there. There are so many places in Europe and the world where it can do more good. They even called the loans from my tax money "terrorism".


Obviously, I do not agree that anyone is using insulting words, but if you analyze the mechanisms which work behind those "loans" and "rescue" packages they are indeed tools of oppression of a entire country. You trap them in a debt cycle to suck out all the productivity of a country and make it impossible for them to leave. Same happend a decade ago in South america.

And never forget that almost nothing of the money of the creditors went to the people - not directly, nor indirectly (infrastructure).
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 13:40 by Tror »

Tror

« Reply #314 on: July 05, 2015, 13:36 »
+1

Meanwhile, in Switzerland, Norway, Iceland,...economies are healthy and doing well...

Greece the next Switzerland...of course, of course, we will all go and trust our money to Greek banks...just like the greek population.

Greece will never be like switzerland. Obviously, the mentality is very different and they will be always a "poorer" country, but those countries demonstrate and question due to their success the claims of the EU group that they (EU) hold the ultimate solution in terms of economic success - at least thats what they try to make people believe.

« Reply #315 on: July 05, 2015, 13:40 »
+4
Now lets see how will EU be accepting democracy :)

It goes to show that all of theirs independent research about the referendum were faked as always and Mr Schultz open threatening to the whole nation before referendum luckily didn't work  ;)

Now I just hope other nations will follow the trend


Tror

« Reply #316 on: July 05, 2015, 13:40 »
+2
Now lets see how will EU be accepting democracy :)

It goes to show that all of theirs independent research about the referendum were faked as always and Mr Schultz open threatening to the whole nation before referendum luckily didn't work  ;)

Now I just hope other nations will follow the trend

I fully agree.

« Reply #317 on: July 05, 2015, 13:41 »
+4
Cobalt, most of your comments about the people of Greece have been so unpleasant and even offensive.  That's sad.   

Why do you keep thinking you are the IMF or European Central Bank?  You are just a regular German citizen. 

Tror

« Reply #318 on: July 05, 2015, 13:43 »
+5
Cobalt, most of your comments about the people of Greece have been so unpleasant and even offensive.  That's sad.   

The Problem is too the german media. They provide false and very subjective information, constantly bashing Greece, the People and even manipulating facts.

« Reply #319 on: July 05, 2015, 14:39 »
+3
Now EUSSR will punish Greece and make an example for Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland.

Congratulations to the greeks who gave the middle finger to the troika.

« Reply #320 on: July 05, 2015, 15:08 »
+3
Quote
All these leftist economist believe that if you throw money into a unsustainable economy, it will magically get better. No, it will not! Not without structural reforms.

To keep it simple, if you don't sell your photos on Shutterstock, borrowing money to buy more fancy cameras and lenses, will most probably not improve your sales. You better get your s**t together and improve your photography skills first!

Part 1.Throwing money in an "unsustainable hole" (because of the public debt, the newly discovered boogeyman of the post 1998 economy) is exactly what the eurozone forces the Greek government to do and we are forced to under the monetary policy.You are totally confused here.You havent understood anything about the Eurozone's monetary policy yet you embark on this conversation with convenient half truths at best and expect people to continue this conversation seriously.Have you seen charts of Germany's public debt (its HUGE) and have you understood why or how this is conveniently hidden "in a closet" and makes Germany act like they can dictate the monetary policy to others and not themselves?because if they do hang tight.
Ill help you understand this by giving hints.What upsets Merkel if Greece leaves the Eurozone and why?If Spain were to leave what would happen?If italy had capitals controls who would interest from that and who wouldn't?

Part 2. To keep it simple?You make the hillarious fallacy that everyone who has no knowledge of politics and economy makes.You confuse a nation's economics with an individuals economics.
Hints to embark further.
Countries do NOT default.Individuals and corporations do.Banks do or did until 2008.Why is that?


So structural reforms are politics and public debt and borrowing is economics right?
Wrong.

Both are politics.When i said in another thread that these moronic neoliberals in Brussels dream of a neo-feudal Europe i wasnt joking.

The economic theory is not a religion you have to believe in, but a science.
And your belief that there is something beyond the obvious, only understood by some "Illuminati", is the real fallacy!
And it's not hilarious, since so many are fooled by it! Fooled by the illusion that wealth will fall from the sky, after an "oxi" vote, in some referendum!

I'll continue to keep it simple for you: what EU wants you to do, is for you to go first to a photography class, before lending you more money to buy even more fancy cameras and lenses.

Simple again: there is nothing wrong to borrow money when you have a sound business plan and your s**t in order. Money lending with interest is the very engine that pushed mankind forward.
I have a mortgage nobody forced me to take. I'm paying my debts every month as I agreed to do, when I signed my contract.
Same goes for Germany at the macro level. Get it? Simple economics!

Countries DO default. Obviously, it doesn't mean the Greeks will be fired from Greece, but rather that Greece will be fired from the international trade as untrustworthy. And believe me, this means that, one way or another, as history proves, Greece will have to adjust. It looks like Greeks have chosen the hard way out!

My only hope is that EU will stay strong, continuing to refuse to fall for Tsipras' bluff, and throw my money into the Greek chaos.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 17:13 by Zero Talent »

Semmick Photo

« Reply #321 on: July 05, 2015, 16:07 »
+2
Now EUSSR will punish Greece and make an example for Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland.

Congratulations to the greeks who gave the middle finger to the troika.
Ireland reformed their spending under the trojka and actually cut the program short and are basically standing on their own feet again. They needed 90 billion but 'only' used 70bn and is paying back quicker as planned.

230 billion euro of other peoples money was pumped into Greece and it will never be paid back, and that seems to be ok for you guys. So the troja dont want to put more money into Greece. Why are people getting so upset over the that? Greece says NO to the reforms. Great. Divorce seems to please both parties.

The pro Greece users here got what they wanted but still seem upset for some reason.


Oh yeah: They gave the middle finger alright, now lets see if they are willing to deal with the consequences. See if it is all the better standing on their own feet.

StockPhotosArt.com

« Reply #322 on: July 05, 2015, 16:25 »
+2
This whole EU non-sense did enough damage, not only to Greece. Greece: 60% unemployment amongst the youth, Spain: 50%, Portugal 33%, in Germany you see people looking for food in the Trash - not just the typical homeless, but old people, retired ones in good clothes,

The unemployment in Portugal is much higher than official numbers, especially amongst the youth.

To account for the unemployment it's taken into consideration the people inscribed in the Employment Center. The question is that many, many people don't inscribe themselves there, and many that do give up after the end of the unemployment benefits because they search for employment on their own, and the offer of employment in those centers is small. The vast majority of companies do not use it to search for employees.

Plus, over 5% (!!!) of the Portuguese population emigrated in the last years, many of them young adults with superior education, and those do not count toward the statistics.

It's estimated that in the near decades, due to the low number of births in large as consequence of the crisis, and emigration of the young (most will hardly come back), the portuguese population will shrink from 10 million to 6 million!

The EU and the Euro has been in my opinion, in the way it acted towards Portugal, a catastrophe.

« Reply #323 on: July 05, 2015, 16:56 »
+3
Cobalt, most of your comments about the people of Greece have been so unpleasant and even offensive.  That's sad.   

Why do you keep thinking you are the IMF or European Central Bank?  You are just a regular German citizen.

I am a regular european citizen. Maybe if you bother to read the comment sections of other european forums, online papers etc...you will find I am not unusual at all.

Why do you believe that I should not have a voice about what happens with my tax money? I am a voter and tax payer in the European community. Is it undemocratic if I want my tax money spent responsibly? Or that I dont enjoy being called a terrorist?

And I have family in Greece that is affected by the current chaos. If things get worse and they lose their jobs, I will also have to send money directly to them. But how? When there is no working banking system? One of my cousins sent money to her sisters account in London. 10 days ago. But the money hasnt arrived, is being held "somewhere" on the way. Wont come back to her account either.

This is what I have been discussing with my family over the last weeks and of course tonight. None of them have voted No, but they all have jobs in the private sector, not government companies. But what about the pensions, when they stop being paid? So we have a lot of worries and it looks like more from my family will try to move to the UK. I cant help them there, if they want to work in Germany they would need to be fluent in German. But they all are good with English, many studied in the UK or the US.

I am also looking at my budget, seeing what I can set aside for emergencies. Of course I am not the only one, everyone in my family is doing that. We have done these things before, somehow we always manage.


So if you find my comments unpleasant, that is is up to you. But  for me what is going on is not an abstract theoretical thing, we really need to make a living.

And we cant wait until total chaos is there, we have to move early. There will be a flood of talented people going abroad, there will be a lot of competition for any jobs for people who are fluent in Greek and English.

I see on TV that people are partying, or even say they are now better "Europeans". I dont see any parties anywhere else in Europe.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 17:11 by cobalt »

« Reply #324 on: July 05, 2015, 18:06 »
+1
@cobalt

... politically naive -  to be precise -

..fritz already explained it - endless loans are sophisticated way of occupation...
Please explain why they have asked for all those loans and still want more then.  At some point when you keep borrowing money, you have to take responsibility for your own debt.  They could of got out of the mess they created but now they have the option to print their own currency and that looks like all they have left now.
3

The simple and widely known answer is what George Papandreou did in 2011.In 2011 in the Eurozone every country was ready to start whistling about its debt (which everyone knew from back then that it is unsustainable for every European country) and about  to embark in a controlled game of economical inflation (kicking down the can) ,as long as there is primary surplus (on paper) .That was the deal (euro coin monetary policy)
And what did that neoliberal halfwit do instead?He decided that greece should be the only country that should jump in first in a puddle of crap and start repaying this debt that noone has,can,and will repay ever ever.
Then came the IMF (had already agreed to the imf deal even before the elections) and the rest is history.


 

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