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Author Topic: GO Greece!  (Read 83231 times)

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Titus Livius

« Reply #350 on: July 06, 2015, 12:47 »
+2
How can a nation and people have sovereignty over an economy without being able to control the nation's currency? It's just not possible. At the same time, I don't understand how Greeks can expect to receive a loan without making the systemic changes to pay it back.

the whole EU idea is an offspring of the Cold War, a thing of the past that makes little sense nowadays in 2015.

joining the EU means becoming de facto a "region" and losing the status of sovereign country, just as every state in the USA begging for money to the FED.
i wouldn't blame us too much as many of us never ever have been allowed to vote for all this.

however, neither most of the greeks ever gave support to the crooks of PASOK who's responsible for the sh-itload of loans that now greece refused to pay.

while the germans are busy pointing their fingers at Syriza the old greek elite is laughing all the way to the bank while living overseas with billions of euros stored safely in switzerland.

now, don't ask me how they could possibly get all that money and why their creditors saw nothing wrong with it, i can guess why but ultimately it's not my business, but as always it will be the innocent law-abiding people paying the price for this mess, for starters losing their jobs and secondly losing probably most of their remaining bank account.



« Reply #351 on: July 07, 2015, 08:30 »
+9
The next few days will hopefully see a sensible end to the crisis. I still believe having the drachme back will give Greece much better options.

It is also hard to get rid of the images of people celebrating and dancing while the European flag is burned. That picture will stay with me for a long time.

Being part of the eurozone means, you are part of a team. Why not give Portugal a 53% debt relief this time? It doesnt have to be Greece every three years.

Many of the smaller and poorer countries will not accept to pay the Greek debt for them. All 18 eurozone countries have to agree and let their parliaments vote. I dont see how Greece will get 18 yes votes after voting No so loudly themselves.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/ecbs-ilmars-rimsevics-says-greece-has-voted-itself-out-of-euro-zone/articleshow/47974692.cms

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/eurozones-poorer-nations-take-hard-line-on-greece/articleshow/47964280.cms

They can still be part of Schengen, travel and work wherever they want. But if they want full control over how to run their finances without evil outside interference, then it would probably be better to go their own way.

The many young greek people who work abroad will have an easier time sending money home, because sending euros or dollars will be so much more valuable.

And the Greek people can run their country the way they want, nobody outside will get upset if they seem them favoring the oligarchs from paying taxes or wasting their money on the military. It is their country, they can do whatever they want.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 08:54 by cobalt »

Semmick Photo

« Reply #352 on: July 07, 2015, 08:49 »
+3

And the Greek people can run their country the way they want, nobody outside will get upset if they seem them favoring the oligarchs from paying taxes or wasting their money on the military. It is their country, they can do whatever they want.
For that they need to leave the EU, not the Eurozone

« Reply #353 on: July 07, 2015, 08:56 »
+2
Maybe, I am not sure which part of the membership of euro or eu require how much financial comittment.

But probably leaving it alltogether would be best. They can still negotiate free trade and free travel agreements.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 09:10 by cobalt »

« Reply #354 on: July 07, 2015, 08:57 »
+4
Quote

The economic theory is not a religion you have to believe in, but a science.
And your belief that there is something beyond the obvious, only understood by some "Illuminati", is the real fallacy!
And it's not hilarious, since so many are fooled by it! Fooled by the illusion that wealth will fall from the sky, after an "oxi" vote, in some referendum!

I'll continue to keep it simple for you: what EU wants you to do, is for you to go first to a photography class, before lending you more money to buy even more fancy cameras and lenses.

Simple again: there is nothing wrong to borrow money when you have a sound business plan and your s**t in order. Money lending with interest is the very engine that pushed mankind forward.
I have a mortgage nobody forced me to take. I'm paying my debts every month as I agreed to do, when I signed my contract.
Same goes for Germany at the macro level. Get it? Simple economics!

Countries DO default. Obviously, it doesn't mean the Greeks will be fired from Greece, but rather that Greece will be fired from the international trade as untrustworthy. And believe me, this means that, one way or another, as history proves, Greece will have to adjust. It looks like Greeks have chosen the hard way out!

My only hope is that EU will stay strong, continuing to refuse to fall for Tsipras' bluff, and throw my money into the Greek chaos.


You oversimplify things like loan/debt etc by stripping the economy apart from the driving force that validates its authority ans existence and that force is politics and not the scientific truth in economics,because there is no scientific truth in economics.
Haven't heard that one i bet.
And that belief is your biggest problem!
Your belief illustrates very well what's wrong in Greece!

Leftist central planners, like Tsipras, try to govern by substituting politcs for entrepreneurial judgment and true economics.

They play referendum games, while missing the whole purpose of individual action, competition and efficiency in free markets.
Their politics fool people in believing that no change is needed from within,
because it's always somebody else's fault.

That's politics,  indeed. And this has nothing to do with a healthy triving economy. These irresponsible politics are the root cause of all bubbles and crisis. And todays Greece is the perfect example.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

Yes apparently everything is pretty clear in your mind.
Politics destroy the free market who knows whom to reward and whom to condemn.Physical laws is all the economy is,but the politicians came and ruined this simple cause/effect balance sciense perfect system thingy.
You can live and thrive in this existensial crisis (funny that you are the theologist here and you are totally oblivious),and i hope the best to you.
Just bear in mind that one day you might wake up and open a book (which i find unlikely) and realize that the market that you are evangelizing
as being diluted by leftists and communists is the best you are going to get because if im not mistaken the western world is being ruled by liberals during the last 40 years with the same
ideas as you.

40 years these poor men had to implement their ideas and they get sabotaged all the time by socialists and leftists thats why this model isnt working to its full potential.
And Greece is the last communistic/capitalistic country i suppose and tsipras has put a veto to its reforms so that we will never join the rest of the western world and insted bring you all down with us?
Seriously what else am i going to witness in this thread as undisputed truth....

You got that right: the government intervention in the economy and the wrong political decisions (=bad management) are the root cause of all bubbles and crises!
From borrowing too much money to pay huge armies of civil servants, to money printing (when borrowing doesn't work anymore) or subsidising inefficient industries, only to buy votes for future elections.
Remember that no government knows better than people, what is good for people.

And BTW, economics is a science, even if you don't believe it, even if it is based on a lot of empirical data. Apart from mathematics, all other sciences (eg physics, chemistry, etc) are based on empirical data or try to develop models able to explain the empirical data.

Now back to Greece.
Syriza is called anti-austerity party. This label hides the real ideological nature of this party.
These 6 months since Tsipras took over, have not changed a bit the young radical left militant, who adhered to the communist party when he was 16. Tsipras lives only for "The Cause".
Greece has become an European Venezuela, but without the power of the venezuelan oil. Syriza is a big admirer of the anti-capitalist agenda pushed by Hugo Chavez. Not surprising, both Maduro and Castro sent their congratulations: "We are about to break the chains of the international finances and IMF"

When dealing with Tsipras and Varoufakis, EU made a big mistake. The same mistake they make when talking to Putin.
They talk to them like they talk to normal, responsible people, ready to defend their priorities, but with no hidden agenda. They expect that when someone makes a promise, the promise is kept. Nobody expect lies told with a straight face, like those told by Putin when he denied the presence of the russian army in eastern Ukraine.
What EU often forgets is that the greek government is made out of communists and radical leftists, with marxist beliefs, who have attended the leninist school of thought. The capitalist EU (even the democratic left) are their arch-enemies, therefore they feel it is alright to blackmail and deceive with no scrupuls. No surprise here about those frequent contacts between Tsipras and Putin, because these contacts serve "The Cause"
All means are good to serve "The Cause", especially those means exploiting EU weaknesses. Respecting EU rules is the last thing Tsipras has in mind. What he wants is to bend those rules and use them for his own agenda.
Last Sunday referendum is the perfect example for such rules manipulation. Even if the Greek constitution forbids (for very logical reasons) a referendum on fiscal matters, Syriza found a way around it.
Tsipras did a great job in exploiting a certain ideological blindness which ignores the reality, by manipulating frustrations, fears, bursts of national pride, focusing them on the usual suspects: Schauble, Merkel, IMF.

This looks exactly like the good old communist "class warfare"!

Tsipras and Varoufakis became heroes by promoting a parallel reality, while destroying all the progress made, with huge sacrifices, by the greeks under the previous government (without even taking in account the recent disaster created by the bank closures)

Syriza has now all it needs to implement a semi-authoritarian neo-Chavist regime.
I just read that some canadian mining company had its license revoked and the workers took over the mine. In a discussion with that union leader, the energy minister stated that the european money will never be returned.
This de-facto nationalization is inline with Syriza's mission to fight against the neo-liberalism and the capitalism itself.

Syriza is trying now to re-invent the "communist wheel". As history has proven over and over again, these attempts have always failed!
But who knows, maybe Syriza found a way!

Therefore "Good luck" to all of you, Syriza cheerleaders and supporters, in implementing the "Brave New World" or the next 21st century utopia!

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 13:04 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #355 on: July 07, 2015, 08:59 »
+2
Now they asked an urgent loan of 7 billions euros for the next 48 hours to the "terrorists".

7 billions!  :o

« Reply #356 on: July 07, 2015, 09:08 »
+2
OMG, you mean this story from the telegraph? I had heard about it loosely but completely forgotten about it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11717890/Could-Greece-become-the-European-Venezuela.html

Greece as the next Venezuela without Oil.

It is clear that Tsirpas has hidden agendas, he lies openly towards his people in a very shameful way. No sense of guilt for ruining the country in just 6 months, but as we have seen last Sunday, people seem to be having fun.

We dont have to understand it, if they want to try communism again in the 21st century, it is their choice.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 09:20 by cobalt »

Semmick Photo

« Reply #357 on: July 07, 2015, 09:54 »
+3
Quote
"Syriza are not competent economically. Lafanzanis told me that they are going to f*** the Europeans and never pay them back."

They dont even consider themselves to be Europeans. Cant wait for them to leave. Good riddance.

« Reply #358 on: July 07, 2015, 10:14 »
+1

And the Greek people can run their country the way they want, nobody outside will get upset if they seem them favoring the oligarchs from paying taxes or wasting their money on the military. It is their country, they can do whatever they want.
For that they need to leave the EU, not the Eurozone
We have no problem favouring oligarchs with Non-dom status so they pay almost no tax in the UK and wasting money on the militarry while still being in the EU :)

Titus Livius

« Reply #359 on: July 07, 2015, 11:20 »
+1
Greece cannot "fail", it's a Nato member, if it fails Nato will take care somehow, they've no interest in leaving Nato members pis-s poor, especially now that the Russians are willing to bail them out.

sure, they can leave the EU but in one way or another they'll be forced to obey to foreign powers, or else ...


« Reply #360 on: July 07, 2015, 13:00 »
0
...sorry, accidental quote instead of modify.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 13:14 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #361 on: July 07, 2015, 14:20 »
0
So all 28 leaders of Europe are meeting on Sunday. We all know what that means.

There will be humanitarian aid of course. Generous aid. But at least that money will actually reach the people.

Bitter. But there is no point to repeat the same mistake again and again.

And once the transition is over,Greece can maybe find their own path in their own unique way.

« Reply #362 on: July 07, 2015, 16:05 »
+4
All the countries governor worried, Tsipras is the only one laughing.
Looking at this picture seems like it is all good with his country, he doesn't care with the worries he is causing to other countries.

StockPhotosArt.com

« Reply #363 on: July 07, 2015, 16:15 »
+2
And once the transition is over,Greece can maybe find their own path in their own unique way.

The strength of Europe has always been the diversity, the different successful paths explored by different nations which would serve as an example to other nations to improve themselves.

Looking at the history of Europe we can find in each century a different nation pushing the continent forward, and that was what put us in the vanguard of so many things. Many bad things have happened, but the positive ones are HUGE, from technological advances to the humanitarian concepts.

This monolithic, centralized, bureaucratic, opaque and anti-democratic organization that the EU has become is killing all of this and that is the reason why we are falling behind. It's blindly creating normalized rules and general impositions based on a couple of countries values, to others with totally different "personalities" and social and economic conditions, steamrolling everything that doesn't fit these few countries view of the world.

What Europe needs is an organization that creates alliances, simplifies relations between nations, that suggests paths and coordinated efforts for the common success. That helps to find ways for each country to be flexible and competitive but still keep room for each nation's creative a personal approach to solve the problems. Everything the EU is NOT!

So, if Greece actual manages to find their own path, believe me that they will be a lot happier than many other nations that just want to join the "popular rich kids" club, thinking that they will be successful just by being near them and imitating their manners in an artificial manner.

« Reply #364 on: July 07, 2015, 16:17 »
+1
Smells like grexit. MUTTI looks not amused tonight.

« Reply #365 on: July 07, 2015, 16:30 »
+4
This monolithic, centralized, bureaucratic, opaque and anti-democratic organization that the EU has become is killing all of this and that is the reason why we are falling behind. It's blindly creating normalized rules and general impositions based on a couple of countries values, to others with totally different "personalities" and social and economic conditions, steamrolling everything that doesn't fit these few countries view of the world.

That's what happened to the U.S. We were supposed to have a de-centralized government where people in individual sovereign states would have greater controls over their own destinies, but now we're dictated to by a corrupt central authority of leftists that are destroying our country financially and culturally.

« Reply #366 on: July 07, 2015, 17:38 »
+6
This monolithic, centralized, bureaucratic, opaque and anti-democratic organization that the EU has become is killing all of this and that is the reason why we are falling behind. It's blindly creating normalized rules and general impositions based on a couple of countries values, to others with totally different "personalities" and social and economic conditions, steamrolling everything that doesn't fit these few countries view of the world.

That's what happened to the U.S. We were supposed to have a de-centralized government where people in individual sovereign states would have greater controls over their own destinies, but now we're dictated to by a corrupt central authority of leftists that are destroying our country financially and culturally.
Except that the congress is fully controlled by the republicans.

What Americans don't realize when they call Obama "leftist", is that, in fact, he is to the right of what Europe calls "right". He is a "leftist" only when compared to the republicans. And that's far, very, very, 3 times very far from Syriza!

EU and US are worlds apart. Culturally and politically

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 18:39 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #367 on: July 07, 2015, 17:46 »
+1
In Greek mythology Europa (/jʊˈroʊpə, jə-/; Greek: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē; Doric Greek: Εὐρώπα Eurṓpā) was a Phoenician woman of high lineage,for whom the continent Europe was named.

Titus Livius

« Reply #368 on: July 08, 2015, 02:25 »
+2
EU and US are worlds apart. Culturally and politically

but there's nothing wrong if they're so different, to each his own.
the US started as a colony, as virgin lands, of course it took a radically different path.

europe is overpopulated, no big reserves of natural gas and oil, dependent on foreign powers, run by eurocrats and crooks, devastated by 3000 yrs of wars, the outcome we can see today is the sum of its long history and i don't think it's easy for the average american to understand all the little things that make europe so special and unique, you should live here for a few years and travel a bit more.


Semmick Photo

« Reply #369 on: July 08, 2015, 02:29 »
+5
Like I said before, Europe (EU) has a lot of good things to offer and they made things better, easier and cheaper. There are also some negatives, of course. But lets not pretend that everything was better before the EU. It wasnt.

Titus Livius

« Reply #370 on: July 08, 2015, 02:31 »
+6
The strength of Europe has always been the diversity, the different successful paths explored by different nations which would serve as an example to other nations to improve themselves.

Looking at the history of Europe we can find in each century a different nation pushing the continent forward, and that was what put us in the vanguard of so many things. Many bad things have happened, but the positive ones are HUGE, from technological advances to the humanitarian concepts.

This monolithic, centralized, bureaucratic, opaque and anti-democratic organization that the EU has become is killing all of this and that is the reason why we are falling behind.

yes and yes !

the EU is killing our core identity and our soul.
europe has NEVER been united into a monolithic bloc in the last 3000 yrs and for very good reasons.

what we're witnessing now is a horrible social engineering experiment on our skin and of course it's miserably failing.

you just can't turn greece or poland into germany or viceversa, no matter what the eurocrats smoked, it's just not that easy to turn us into a bunch of zombies and drones.

the only way to make permanent changes is to give real benefits, not to make our life worse than before.
an alliance of small states can only work if everyone has something to gain, now instead everyone is losing and told to shut the F up.



Semmick Photo

« Reply #371 on: July 08, 2015, 02:38 »
+3
The strength of Europe has always been the diversity, the different successful paths explored by different nations which would serve as an example to other nations to improve themselves.

Looking at the history of Europe we can find in each century a different nation pushing the continent forward, and that was what put us in the vanguard of so many things. Many bad things have happened, but the positive ones are HUGE, from technological advances to the humanitarian concepts.

This monolithic, centralized, bureaucratic, opaque and anti-democratic organization that the EU has become is killing all of this and that is the reason why we are falling behind.


yes and yes !

the EU is killing our core identity and our soul.
europe has NEVER been united into a monolithic bloc in the last 3000 yrs and for very good reasons.

what we're witnessing now is a horrible social engineering experiment on our skin and of course it's miserably failing.

you just can't turn greece or poland into germany or viceversa, no matter what the eurocrats smoked, it's just not that easy to turn us into a bunch of zombies and drones.


the only way to make permanent changes is to give real benefits, not to make our life worse than before.
an alliance of small states can only work if everyone has something to gain, now instead everyone is losing and told to shut the F up.
Sorry, but that is just too funny. The EU is not trying to turn any country into Germany. It tries or wants to make things better and easier

http://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/benefits-of-european-union.html

Lets not forget, all countries using the Euro agreed to the terms to join. No one was forced into joining. Its still a democracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union#Euro




Titus Livius

« Reply #372 on: July 08, 2015, 02:46 »
+3
Like I said before, Europe (EU) has a lot of good things to offer and they made things better, easier and cheaper. There are also some negatives, of course. But lets not pretend that everything was better before the EU. It wasnt.

well i remember europe in the 70s and 80s when i was young and if you ask me the only big difference was that imported products were expensive and this stimulated the local economy to produce local alternatives (or lame imitations).

now it's all gone, i can buy german cars for just a little more than local brands, same for germanc/czech beers that were also hard to find before, what about french cheese or scottish whiskey, russian vodka, electronics, and pretty much anything made in europe or abroad.

this killed many local industries and caused unemployment but hey for us consumers it's very good to have choice and cheap prices.

moreover, i can easily decide to study in a foreign university or working in a foreign company, no big deal, just a little red tape ad you're done, before it was a mess and there was no internet to quickly communicate and getting things done.

a trip in eastern europe was like a trip in the wild west .. something adventurous and a bit risky too ... spain and greece were just cheap holiday destinations, places like russia were totally off the radar and very hard to get in even for tour groups, airplanes were expensive, no ryanair and no online bookings hahaha ..

in many ways, you were basically "trapped" in your little sh-itty country.

it sounds like another world but to me it seems yesterday ... i'm afraid the young people cannot understand and they cannot appreciate how much better it is now.







Semmick Photo

« Reply #373 on: July 08, 2015, 02:51 »
+4
Its very easy to focus on the negatives. Ignoring the benefits it brought us doesnt mean they are not there.

I have experienced first hand the benefits of the EU, and many of my friends too. For me it made my life so much easier.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 02:55 by Semmick Photo »

Titus Livius

« Reply #374 on: July 08, 2015, 03:02 »
+3
Sorry, but that is just too funny. The EU is not trying to turn any country into Germany. It tries or wants to make things better and easier

http://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/benefits-of-european-union.html

Lets not forget, all countries using the Euro agreed to the terms to join. No one was forced into joining. Its still a democracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union#Euro


as anyone else living in the EU i had many benefits from it, i don't deny there are benefits, but soon the cons will outweights the pros if the trend keeps going on.

of course they had to give us benefits or no one would have joined in the first place.
but once the process is complete they will get back to business and there's no way out, see greece and whoever is next on their agenda.


 

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