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Author Topic: Photographers Direct policy on microstock  (Read 10987 times)

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« on: May 27, 2008, 04:27 »
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Why will Photographers Direct not represent photographers who have images on microstock / micropayment sites?

Because they are the antithesis of Fair Trade Photography. Microstock sites (which sell Royalty Free images for 1 to 3 dollars) prey on the lack of industry-experience of amateur photographers.

The only people who benefit from these sites are:

The site owners, because they make money from the images and do not care about the damage they are doing to professional photographers' livelihoods.
The buyers, who cannot believe their luck at being able to get images for a few dollars, and being able to use them as often as they like, for as long as they like, wherever they like.
The people who lose out every time are the photographers. Almost every photographer we have spoken to on this issue has expressed regret at placing their images on microstock sites. Initially they are excited at people taking an interest in their images and paying for them. Of course they like making an income from their images, but here are the facts:
The average fee for an image licensed through Photographers Direct is about 200 dollars, of which the photographer will receive 160 dollars. Images have been licensed for up to 5000 dollars. These license fees are usually for a single usage, not a Royalty Free license. The photographer can license the same image again and again for similar fees.
To make the same average amount through a microstock site you will have to sell anywhere between 200 and 800 images. These images can be used anywhere at any time and cannot realistically be traced. You are not 'selling' your images, you are not 'having success'; you are giving away your images, and the buyers cannot believe their luck.
Imagine the day when you see one of your images on a book or magazine cover. You will probably be very happy and proud, until you realise you earned one dollar from an image that is helping to generate possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars in publishing sales. Is this fair?

The microstock myth is that this does not happen, that images off microstock sites are only used by designers for initial layouts and by 'mom and pop' businesses who would never pay more for images. If this were true, then shouldn't the license reflect it? If you are only paying a few dollars for an image, then it should only be allowed for personal use, or for businesses with less than 4 employees, for instance. However the licenses are open ended. You pay a couple of dollars and you can use the image for anything, for all time. It could be for a billboard advert, a magazine cover, a tv spot.

But does this really happen? Yes it does, and what is painfully ironic is that microstock photographers love to boast about where they have found their images published. Once they have got over the excitement of seeing their work in print, they need to step back, take another look at that paycheck, and think 'Is that all my work is worth?'

A Quote from Photo District News:

"SAA executive director Betsy Reid pointed out a discussion board on iStockPhoto where members were congratulating photographer Lise Gagne, who wrote that she had just seen one of her stock images on IBM's web site.
'Once you're done celebrating, is anyone going to stop and think that you got 20 cents for that image?' Reid asks."

Can IBM afford to pay market rates for images? Of course! Would they pay 500 dollars for this same image if that was the price? The odds are they would. So why did they pay 1 dollar? Because that was the price it was offered for. The photographer has thrown away 499 dollars.

The painful injustice of microstock sites can be seen from the July 23rd 2007 cover of Time Magazine (yes, that's right, Time Magazine). The cover has 3 images. One is credited to Getty Images, one to istockphoto. How much did the photographers earn? A conservative estimate would be that the Getty photographer earned over 1000 dollars. The istock photographer? 20 cents.

Surely photographers should have the right to market their images where they like?

Of course, but we also have the right to make conditions on who we will and will not represent, and Photographers Direct has a duty to protect the livelihoods of all our photographers who agree that microstock sites are just downright bad. Here is an example from a microstock newsgroup of the perils of playing 'boths sides of the fence':

"I signed up to Photographers Direct and was right on the point of selling 6 of my images at $120 each. I then received an email from the guy politely saying that he had found my images on Shutterstock and would I mind if he used them instead before he downloaded them. I politely declined and removed all of them [from Shutterstock] before he could use any, I was fuming at my own stupidity."

In this case the photographer was lucky that the buyer was honest enough to tell him he had found the same images on a microstock site. The buyer could have just cancelled the sale through Photographers Direct and downloaded the same images from Shutterstock. Rather than 576 dollars (which the buyer was clearly happy to pay!) the photographer would then have earned 1 dollar and 50 cents for the use of his images.

Further damage is caused because any buyer who uses a microstock site will begin to see it as the norm. Whenever they get a normal quote from a photographer for an image, their response will be 'but I can get images at microwhateverstockphoto for 1 dollar!' Where does this leave the photographer?

For these reasons Photographers Direct cannot represent photographers who have any images on microstock sites. This is part of our Fair Trade policy.

"Micropayment sites sell your work for peanuts and give you the shells"
Quote from World of Stock.

"I also experienced a wake-up call when I saw a full page spread of one of my images in a book and later realized I only got $1 for it."
Quote from a photographer.

Examples of microstock sites are: 123rf, areaimage, bigstockphoto, canstockphoto, crestock, dreamstime, fotolia, gimmestock, istockphoto, luckyoliver, scandinavianstockphoto, shuttermap, shutterpoint, shutterstock, snapvillage, stockphotomedia, stockxpert, usphotostock.


michealo

« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2008, 05:04 »
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And the point of this post is?

« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2008, 06:21 »
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Actually, PD is the anti-thesis of fair trade sales, since they attempt to restrict their supplier base, based on their random rantings.

« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2008, 06:43 »
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Actually, PD is the anti-thesis of fair trade sales, since they attempt to restrict their supplier base, based on their random rantings.

Genius.  And spot on.

A health food shop won't refuse to stock certain products just because the same products are sold in a budget supermarket alongside value brands...

helix7

« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2008, 10:41 »
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I can't believe SAA is still using that $0.20 figure. Who really gets just $0.20 per sale? My average is more like $1.20 per sale. At istock alone, where SAA gets their $0.20 figure from, it's even higher. I emailed the SAA about that same figure in their Keywords magazine, and got a reply from Reid that the article was a year old. To that I kindly replied that even a year ago, that figure would have been inaccurate. I don't mind anyone having a negative opinion of microstock. If they don't like it, good, fine, stay away and it's less competition for the rest of us. But at least use accurate info in your arguments against it.

I recently invited Betsy Reid to have her writers contact me directly via email or phone if they ever want some accurate info on microstock. Hope someone takes me up on that offer someday.
 

RT


« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2008, 10:49 »
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I recently invited Betsy Reid to have her writers contact me directly via email or phone if they ever want some accurate info on microstock. Hope someone takes me up on that offer someday.
 

I wouldn't wait by your desk, the last thing she want's is accurate information!
To be honest apart from the people that pay to be a member of the SAA I don't think anybody takes any notice of them, they claim to have made major breakthroughs in relations between agencies and artists but if you read into their claims you never see any real evidence that they had anything to do with it.
It's a bit like me taking the credit for when Getty dropped the $49 image, I sent them an email and they dropped it - so there you go it was down to me and not the SAA after all, at least I've got as much evidence as they have  :D

helix7

« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2008, 10:50 »
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...
It's a bit like me taking the credit for when Getty dropped the $49 image, I sent them an email and they dropped it - so there you go it was down to me and not the SAA after all, at least I've got as much evidence as they have  :D

I always had my suspicions that you were behind that. ;)



« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2008, 12:48 »
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Why will Photographers Direct not represent photographers who have images on microstock / micropayment sites?

Because they are the antithesis of Fair Trade Photography. Microstock sites (which sell Royalty Free images for 1 to 3 dollars) prey on the lack of industry-experience of amateur photographers.

The only people who benefit from these sites are:

The site owners, ... etc.

Even if this is all true and it is a problem what solution can you recommend that is not worse than the problem.  License all photographers?  Register all camera and camera owners?  Call out the photo price police? 

The market is setting the prices and you can't do anything about it.

Get over it!!

fred

RT


« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2008, 13:04 »
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...
It's a bit like me taking the credit for when Getty dropped the $49 image, I sent them an email and they dropped it - so there you go it was down to me and not the SAA after all, at least I've got as much evidence as they have  :D

I always had my suspicions that you were behind that. ;)




I don't normally like to boast about it but as you know I have quite an influence over at the big G, let me know if you want a commission increase.

helix7

« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2008, 22:41 »
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I emailed a few concerns to PD, and suprisingly got a response from the owner of the company. He was reasonable enough to change one of the blatant errors (microstock pricing ranges from $1 to $3), but the email took a turn for the worse when he challenged the idea that I or anyone else could make a decent living in microstock. Not that it can't be done, but he seems to think that a very small number of people really make any money in microstock.

He also is sticking to the notion of payment based on usage, which is fine in the RM world. However it seems that he really does not want to see any form of fixed pricing, unless it's always some huge amount. He's die-hard anti-microstock, but I get the feeling that the only way he'd be happy is in an all-RM world.

Interesting guy. A bit unrealistic and super-skeptical that anyone makes money here, but at least a little fun to get into an email dialogue with.

I think that the problems I ran into trying to convince him that there is money in microstock are similar to the problems I'd have convincing anyone at the SAA or any hardcore traditional guys of the same. There's this refusal to believe that maybe microstock is a valid alternative.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 22:43 by helix7 »

DanP68

« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2008, 22:59 »
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Why convince him of anything Helix?  I think you already said it best yourself.  There is no need to attract more competition.  The fewer people who know, the more money you make.


« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2008, 01:47 »
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he challenged the idea that I or anyone else could make a decent living in microstock. Not that it can't be done, but he seems to think that a very small number of people really make any money in microstock.

.... but I get the feeling that the only way he'd be happy is in an all-RM world.

....There's this refusal to believe that maybe microstock is a valid alternative.


Maybe he is right. With one sale at Alamy (my only RM site) I get more than 2 months at Dreamstime. And my Alamy portfolio is 10% of DT. Look at this post :
http://submit.shutterstock.com/forum/abt38601.html
With low (too) prices our images will be done for free all over the world. Microstock companies do nothing against this.  I don't think that it can happen in RM wold.
In long term we can lose.

RacePhoto

« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2008, 02:05 »
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Actually, PD is the anti-thesis of fair trade sales, since they attempt to restrict their supplier base, based on their random rantings.

Five Stars out of five. They can't understand that the market, the buyers and the sellers have a free choice.

I know I'm going to offend a few people here, but, anyone who puts up photos on one site for hundreds of dollars and then lists the same images on microstock sites for a few dollars, at the same time, is a frigging idiot!

You can't sell photos as RF and also list them as RM either!

DanP68

« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2008, 02:15 »
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Maybe he is right. With one sale at Alamy (my only RM site) I get more than 2 months at Dreamstime. And my Alamy portfolio is 10% of DT.


I know you can, but do you?  I congratulate you on the Alamy sale.  How many times has this been repeated?  Are you selling more images, or just that one time?

I'm interested in RM too, and I have an account at Alamy.  Have not uploaded anything yet.  I do poke around their forums, and while there are a few people who claim to be making a living at stock, the vast majority struggle and wonder where the sales are.  Frankly, it seems a lot like any microstock board.  There are a few stars making a lot of money, while the vast majority is just earning a fraction.

Any unscrupulous buyer can upload an image to the internet for free download.  It will be easier to track in a RM situation, but it can happen either way.  And most of the problems these days seems to be taking place with software which removes watermarks. This problem exists for all companies, RM and RF.  Not much difference I can see.

« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2008, 02:21 »
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I have over 1000 images on alamy and can say that i much prefer microstock.  Yes the big sales are nice and I have had a number of smaller sales (under $400) and a couple just under $1000 which is great, but still what matters in the end is $/p/y ... and in this average - microstock wins hands down.  I also find microstock a lot more fun.

One thing to note on the alamy boards, is that when many people exchange earings info, they often state what the image GROSS SALE price was and not the comission they got themselves.  .. which can be as little as 45% of the stated amount.  Whereas micro earnings are always talked about in net earnings... or the actual amount we receive for the sale of an image.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 02:24 by leaf »

DanP68

« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2008, 02:40 »
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Great information Leaf.  It's important to hear feedback from someone in both camps. 

Another nice advantage of microstock is that prices are rising noticeably.  A simple doubling of the price conceivably doubles one's earnings.  There is a lot of room for prices to rise in microstock.

« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2008, 05:06 »
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Maybe he is right. With one sale at Alamy (my only RM site) I get more than 2 months at Dreamstime. And my Alamy portfolio is 10% of DT.


I know you can, but do you?  I congratulate you on the Alamy sale.  How many times has this been repeated?  Are you selling more images, or just that one time?
In 14 months I had only 4 sales at Alamy. It's few but in earnings still better than one year at StockXpert, DT, BigStock, 123, LO, CanStockPhoto, SV, or CRESTOCK.
Any unscrupulous buyer can upload an image to the internet for free download.  It will be easier to track in a RM situation, but it can happen either way.  And most of the problems these days seems to be taking place with software which removes watermarks. This problem exists for all companies, RM and RF.  Not much difference I can see.
Big difference in my opinion. When someone spend 300-400$ for one image the risk he give it for free at russian site is small. When someone download at subscription site 2000 images for 0.20 $ each the risk much bigger.



« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2008, 05:19 »
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Why convince him of anything Helix?  I think you already said it best yourself.  There is no need to attract more competition.  The fewer people who know, the more money you make.

Yeah, really.  Cut it out :)

helix7

« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2008, 06:12 »
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My bad. :)




 

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