Trust - do microstock sites have to be accountable to anybody?

[studio10]

We all put a lot of trust in microstock sites to operate with integrity. But who do they have to be accountable to? Is there anything stopping sites from skimming sales and not letting contributors know about it? Who audits these sites? I would expect sites that are publicly traded would have to do more detailed reporting, and make heir statements public - but private companies don't have to show anything to anybody if they don't want to. If I had 50 sales last month from agency XYZ, whose to say I didn't actually have 60 sales, or 80? Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

[bittersweet]

Yet another very good reason to hesitate before jumping on the latest turnip truck every time a new one comes clacking down the trail.

[tan510jomast]

well, like any thriving businessman will tell you: you cheat and cut corners on your customers or associates and you are shooting your own foot. if i get 100 sales from company X , and they say 10. don't you think i will slowly stop uploading to them?
and with whatalife mentioned, yes... we stop getting carried away with joining every new sites that comes along. in fact, i am actually cutting down to just the 3 main sites that are selling images for me. no matter how small my sales, (my port is small too, for all that matters), the site that gives me regular sales are now the only site i am submitting new stuff.

[Dreamframer]

If some agency has good sales, it could hide from you for example 5% of your sales, and I guess you will never notice. You will still have good sales and you won't stop uploading to that agency. Also, the agency could start stealing from you from the very beginning, so you will never notice decreased sales. That agency could, also, steal from you only sales of already sold files, so you will never find some image of yours online or in magazines that you didn't sell before.
So, I think Fotolia is pretty fair regarding this issue. They let you see the buyers address. That is the least they could do. Why other sites don't let us see the details of buyers?
I don't see why that information should be hidden. Why we cannot see who bought our images? Is it really so big deal? If Fotolia can do it why others can't? We don't sell drugs or some illegal stuff....

[bittersweet]

We don't sell drugs or some illegal stuff....

How do I know that?

As a customer, I would absolutely NOT do business with a company who gave out my personal details to every contributor who made 30 cents off my purchase! No way!

If you don't trust that the agency/agencies you are dealing with are conducting business in an above-board manner, then I strongly suggest that you pull your portfolio from their servers immediately.

How do I know the electric company isn't bumping up my kilowatt usage in their billing? How do I know if the water company is charging for the right number of gallons? How do I know when I put gas in my car that the pump has not been tampered with to alter the actual amount I'm putting in my tank? How do I know that the drink I ordered has a full shot of alcohol? How do I know that the chef who just prepared my meal washed his hands after he took a pee?

The answer is I don't. My decision to do business with an establishment is made based on what I DO know and anything I can reasonably learn. After that, I figure it's just shaving days off my life to obsess about who might be trying to cheat me.

[studio10]

But these other services/products have checks and measures in place - people watching them, auditing them to maintain honesty. Restaurants have health inspectors, utilities have to answer to governments and industry auditors. Microstock sites can exist anywhere on the planet and do what they want. I am not saying that I openly distrust any of them, it just was a thought - and it began when I was reading another thread about the amount of money that sites make from newbies who sign up, make a few sales, and never reach payout before giving up. If they wanted to cheat, they could be dishonest about how many sales are actually there - then if they see the contributor working hard and getting somewhere (making reasonable money for them) they back off and let the system work. But one thing I know about human nature is that greed is prevalent, and if nobody is watching, people will take what they can. I like to think of my self as honest - but f I didn't think I would get caught would I pay my taxes in full!  Greed is what has put the world into this economic crisis. This might be another argument in favor of an organized microstock union or group that can do some work to ensure everybody is ethical and honest.

[Dreamframer]

That's right Whatalife. I didn't say I am obsessed with thinking about that. Actually, I never think about that and I trust these agencies much more than any other company in my country, because I live in a country where everything is based exactly on cheating. Trust me, we all here have very very bad experience dealing with: phone comapny (one and only, monopolist), power company (one and only, monopolist), and thousands of other companies that use every hole on our law for their manipulations.
My friend works as manager in a bank, and his brain is simply adjusted for those kind of stuff. He always thinks about how to use holes in a law or to avoid law.
15 years we lived in a country that put colored water in gasoline...yes that's truth. You would sit in a car, and after some time you would have to go to service to pump out the water from your "gas pump" or how you call it in english. You can find colored bread in shops that looks as whole wheat bread....etc etc...
Right now we are dealing with big fraud made by government. They sold few big national companies to Italians, and every adult in the country was able to get equal part of that money because companies were national. But yesterday, ministry of finance admit that we won't get that money at all. Here in my city, someone started to build a shopping center, and people bought real estate before the building was finished. The owner of the project disappeared with money few months after it, and the building was never finished.
So.... I hope now you see why I am simply forced to think that way sometimes.

I told many people that I sell photos online. Every one of them asked me: "Are you sure they show you every sale of yours?" So, It's not just me. Here everyone thinks like this. I was always answering: "Well, I am pretty sure because they are not from here"
Sad, but truth....

[Dreamframer]

Just an addition to my previous post. Try and sit somewhere here, and buy a drink. I will sit next to you, on another table and I will order the same drink. When time comes for us to pay the bill, we will see how much I paid, and how much you paid. Most likely you will pay at least 5 times more, because they all work with false bills, at least 25% of bills are false in every shop, pharmacy, restaurant, etc etc...

[studio10]

Whitechild - I live in Canada, where people and business tend to be honest. I realize that there are many parts of the world where corruption is the name of the game. You are lucky to be able to step out from your local (corrupt) environment by selling photos to stock agencies. Some of them I know are trustworthy - especially the ones that have a good reputation, or are owned by larger corporations -  like istock, stockxpert and others.

I agree with the poster who says to be careful, and avoid jumping on the next new site that comes along. It would be easy money to set up a site, get a few thousand photos up, make some money and then disappear. I am sure it happens. Personally I have focused on my top four earners. I am not closing the other accounts, but I am not uploading either.

Here is a way to check the honesty of sites - take a few hundred dollars and buy photos from an assortment of sites. Then contact the photographers to see if the sales registered on their accounts. Another job for the microstock union!

[Magnum]

Just an addition to my previous post. Try and sit somewhere here, and buy a drink. I will sit next to you, on another table and I will order the same drink. When time comes for us to pay the bill, we will see how much I paid, and how much you paid. Most likely you will pay at least 5 times more, because they all work with false bills, at least 25% of bills are false in every shop, pharmacy, restaurant, etc etc...

Always ask for price BEFORE you buy drinks in eastern Europe:)   

[lisafx]

Whitechild, that is so depressing! 

While we do have corruption scandals here in the US it is still not the accepted way of doing business and there is public shock and outrage when these scandals are discovered (Bernie Madoff anyone?).

I imagine I would be quite depressed and hopeless if I lived in a society where I couldn't trust anyone.  You deserve a lot of credit for your positive and friendly attitude

[RT]

We all put a lot of trust in microstock sites to operate with integrity. But who do they have to be accountable to? Is there anything stopping sites from skimming sales and not letting contributors know about it? Who audits these sites? I would expect sites that are publicly traded would have to do more detailed reporting, and make heir statements public - but private companies don't have to show anything to anybody if they don't want to. If I had 50 sales last month from agency XYZ, whose to say I didn't actually have 60 sales, or 80? Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

I'd have thought the law is what stops the sites from skimming sales, as for a private company not having to show anything to anybody, I can't speak about the US but certainly in the UK I can go to Companies House and for a small fee get the accounts for any Ltd company, is that not the case for LLC's or whatever they're called over there?

[PeterChigmaroff]

I remember talking with a photographer  with the Image Bank way back when and he was sure sub-agents skimmed from him. Other agents get a bit behind and the first place they get the money is from photographers royalties. There are lots of photographers this has happened to, Now with micro it is absolutely impossible to tell if an image download has been paid for. I think most of them are honest but the ability to be dishonest couldn't be much easier.

[Dreamframer]

Thank you guys and thank you Lisa for your compliments
Unfortunately, you are right about depression. I work in wholesale pharmaceuticals, and I can tell you antidepressants and sedatives are most selling medicines here.
More than analgetics (pain relief medicines). The worst thing is everyone can buy them, without prescription (which is also illegal, but pharmacists have to live also, right, so they sell them freely)
Every time I go to visit some small private pharmacy, at least 2-3 people comes in and asks for a sedative.

Ok, this thread went the wrong way already

I wanted to say, I trust to agencies. Otherwise I wouldn't submit. Whatalife is right when he say if we start to be obsessed with this it won't help us. So, let's go back to work


 

[cdwheatley]

I remember on trip to Costa Rica I was warned by the locals of a 3 tiered pricing structure. You had the locals price, the spanish speaking tourists price, and then the "gringo" price.  Lucky for us the gringo price was still really cheap.

[null]

Always ask for price BEFORE you buy drinks in eastern Europe:)   

That's true for the entire world east of Berlin, up to the shores of Pismo Beach, Ca. 
If I might add another hint, stay behind the corner and let a local ask it. 

[null]

Here is a way to check the honesty of sites - take a few hundred dollars and buy photos from an assortment of sites. Then contact the photographers to see if the sales registered on their accounts. Another job for the microstock union!

I know somebody that did just do that, under another account on one of the smaller (not the top 6) sites. He bought his own photo. The sale didn't come up. He wrote an email. First they denied, then he gave the evidence. Then he got a very complicated explanation about glitches and server hickups and he got the credit. No comment.

In his speech in ReykjaviK in 1986, Reagan speeched to Gorby after the arms control agreement ("Star Wars") : Trust but Verify - "doveryai, no proveryai" (Russian: Доверяй, но проверяй). 

[tan510jomast]

I remember on trip to Costa Rica I was warned by the locals of a 3 tiered pricing structure. You had the locals price, the spanish speaking tourists price, and then the "gringo" price.  Lucky for us the gringo price was still really cheap.

yes, i 've lived with the ticos from the time CR was not so popular until they became the new  "florida" or "cancun". i get to pay tico prices at the soda, but as time went by, i tipped them to balance off the asking gringo price.  you have to understand that many regulars have been there with them even before say jaco, cahuita, hermosa,conchal,puntarenas,tamrindo,etc.. or even manual antonio became a resort. you can't expect them to pay the current gringo price.
the hotel's created the inflation, but they don't get to enjoy that inflation. in fact, they get stuck in a town that is now too expensive to live, or worse get invaded by affluence,drugs and everything evil that progress brings with it. they get a nice fat paycheck working with marriot,etc but their hometown is no longer that, it belongs to the world. argghhhh! guacala!
next place to be like that is panama.... almirante, bocas,etc...

[Lizard]

Just an addition to my previous post. Try and sit somewhere here, and buy a drink. I will sit next to you, on another table and I will order the same drink. When time comes for us to pay the bill, we will see how much I paid, and how much you paid. Most likely you will pay at least 5 times more, because they all work with false bills, at least 25% of bills are false in every shop, pharmacy, restaurant, etc etc...

Always ask for price BEFORE you buy drinks in eastern Europe:)   

I have way better experience with eastern than western Europe , where in quite a few countries you order a drink and after 5 minutes they ask you to leave cause you
are blocking the table , and the the bill is few times higher than the price of the drinks you had.  Then you realize they are actually charging you the table that was never mentioned
and there is not a single info about that.

[studio10]

FlemishDreams wrote: I know somebody that did just do that, under another account on one of the smaller (not the top 6) sites. He bought his own photo. The sale didn't come up. He wrote an email. First they denied, then he gave the evidence. Then he got a very complicated explanation about glitches and server hickups and he got the credit. No comment."

That is concerning to hear that this was tried and it showed fraud! - I am curious to try this with a few sites to see if it is a common thing.

[leaf]

I think things like this ARE tried quite often.  Not by one person though, but by designers and photographers.  If a designer knows a photographer and buys their images they might tell them that, and the photographer would check.  The few times I have bought images from someone I have let them know, and yes, the sales obviously showed up.

With the world being so small with internet, I think it is hard to get away with things like this.  It is like when a photographer, or pirate website is selling stolen images, amongst the millions of images, one would think it would never be found, but there is enough people 'looking out' that it doesn't take long to get found out.

[Adeptris]

What do we do?

Do not upload just in case the site is not honest, or trust the site and upload then worry that the sites Customers are not using the download within the size and terms and conditions requirements.

This is a problem with using the middle men (Merchants) in the industry, over on the Macro sites like Alamy I often read in thier forums a Rights Managed Image is sold as a web or spot size sale to an Eastern European country, and this is often questioned if the sale or use is honest, but there is no easy way to check.

If you do not trust the sites to do thier best and accept that while most sites and thier customers are honest, there will be some that are not, but overall it is manageable, then the only option for you is to control it by direct sales only.

Maybe we need a collective service where a buyer searches on one site, and gets the pages of uploaded thumbnails only, and which at the point of sale links back to the Photographers site for the actual transaction.

David     

[leaf]

I thought i would also add, that microstock sites are considerably more transparent in regards to download and statistics than traditional sites ever were.

[Peiling]

i guess u just have to trust the "integrity" of the sites..

[shutterdrop]

Greed is what has put the world into this economic crisis. This might be another argument in favor of an organized microstock union or group that can do some work to ensure everybody is ethical and honest.

Every period of economic expansion is followed by a period of economic contraction. It seem the majority alway forgets what Newton said, " What goes up must come down!"

The problem is unethical and dishonest behavior! We should all want more and better! Too many socialist think greed is to want more than your neighbor. We do not need a union or socialist, that was tried and failed. It was called the USSR.