Author Topic: what's with all the frustration ! (Read 21867 times)

Wael · « **on:** September 04, 2017, 07:51 »

I am new here and this is only my second post but I have read most of the recent topics and I can't help but notice the huge amount of frustration and disappointment and even discouragement sometimes ! I guess all newbies know that it's not a huge business, doesn't make u rich or even close but I think many of the friends who post and comment here are really discouraging. I know they are being realistic, I totally understand that, but you can be realistic and at the same time keep some optimistic views for those who are eager to try and go through this. I think one can be realistic but in the meantime supportive and optimistic.

Sent from my SM-G928C using Tapatalk

Sean Locke Photography · « **Reply #1 on:** September 04, 2017, 07:57 »

It isn't our job to keep optimistic views for you. Better to know what you're getting into.

Semmick Photo · « **Reply #2 on:** September 04, 2017, 08:05 »

Look Wael, go ahead, the future is bright. Just spend hours taking photos, then hours processing and tagging photos, then spend hours uploading photos, and watch the 20-25 cents roll in. Submit to the top 6 agencies and I am sure you will make about 25 euro per month. If its just a hobby, go for it.

Video-StockOrg · « **Reply #3 on:** September 04, 2017, 08:28 »

If you put so much time and money into stock and it doesn't give you the income you are planning, it kills your will slowly.

cthoman · « **Reply #4 on:** September 04, 2017, 08:45 »

There's not much point in making new images for a lot of us and that was the fun part, so that doesn't help with optimism.

ShadySue · « **Reply #5 on:** September 04, 2017, 08:50 »

As you are a doctor, may I suggest you find a less stressful outlet for your creativity?
Stock absolutely is a huge business, so huge that the worker ants count for nothing at all.

And remember, a cynic is just a disappointed optimist.

Mantis · « **Reply #6 on:** September 04, 2017, 09:03 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 07:51

I am new here and this is only my second post but I have read most of the recent topics and I can't help but notice the huge amount of frustration and disappointment and even discouragement sometimes ! I guess all newbies know that it's not a huge business, doesn't make u rich or even close but I think many of the friends who post and comment here are really discouraging. I know they are being realistic, I totally understand that, but you can be realistic and at the same time keep some optimistic views for those who are eager to try and go through this. I think one can be realistic but in the meantime supportive and optimistic.

Sent from my SM-G928C using Tapatalk

There is nothing to be optimistic about when your royalties keep getting cut, when you keep producing commercially viable content yet your income keeps going down, when another agency comes along and gives everyone hope then either tanks, cuts royalties or both, when one agency learned of another agency's sneaky ways to cut commissions then copies it, when your work is copied by others and you are in essence competing against yourself, when someone steals your content and you have to fight tooth and nail to get it taken down, when you make 28 cents and your images is used out of terms when you should have received $28 and the agencies do nothing, when your content is mirrored on another site without your permission and sold for $1 and you make next to nothing, when your work sells for $300 and you make 30 cents, when a distributor makes more than you and the agency and when management tells you that money isn't what makes contributors happy, you will too will not be optimistic for all of the right reasons.

sgoodwin4813 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 04, 2017, 09:24 »

Wow, Mantis pretty well summed it up. Unfortunately, I think the negativity is realistic. If you had been here eight or ten years ago you would have seen lots of optimism and help for newbies but as competition has become tougher and agencies have tightened the screws on commissions all the optimists have moved on to better pastures, drunk themselves to death or become the hardened, negative realists you see today for all the reasons Mantis so elegantly provided. More and harder work for less money will do that. Welcome to the club!

Semmick Photo · « **Reply #8 on:** September 04, 2017, 09:27 »

3% royalty on DP, doesnt get more optimistic than that, or 0.01c royalty on Istock. Or have royalty slashed from 70% to 30% because it is better for sales, is also quite optimistic. Or have ELs go from 28$ fixed to 30% of sales price. All very optimistic.

The only optimistic thing that happened was the closure of the Dollar Photo Club. Unfortunately not so optimistically was that I got kicked off Fotolia for fighting for our rights.

stockastic · « **Reply #9 on:** September 04, 2017, 09:47 »

Many of us here have concluded that microstock is a waste of time. I'd say there are 2 big reasons: enormous oversupply, and an online market pretty much controlled by a couple of companies that have become abusive middlemen. At this point it's hard to see how that might change anytime soon. Unless you can produce large numbers of photos that sell like crazy, it's not going to be worthwhile.

That said, there's something else that's true: in any endeavor, there are always new people coming along, with new ideas and fresh eyes, who do things better than 80% of the people already there, and find surprising new ways to succeed.

Shelma1 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 04, 2017, 09:51 »

I wonder how optimistic the OP would remain if he worked longer and longer hours as a doctor for less and less pay every day.

Bad Company · « **Reply #11 on:** September 04, 2017, 10:20 »

All the comments here are very true! A lot of folks use to make a decent living and no longer can- just a fact.

As a newbie you truly want to understand the history of this business so you won't get a false sense of security. Basically, we are saving you time and effort from the pain and suffering we have gone through. Listen carefully and you can still have some fun while making a few $$

PS
I give everyone a plus including the OP to make this site more supportive and optimistic

sharpshot · « **Reply #12 on:** September 04, 2017, 10:32 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 07:51

I am new here and this is only my second post but I have read most of the recent topics and I can't help but notice the huge amount of frustration and disappointment and even discouragement sometimes ! I guess all newbies know that it's not a huge business, doesn't make u rich or even close but I think many of the friends who post and comment here are really discouraging. I know they are being realistic, I totally understand that, but you can be realistic and at the same time keep some optimistic views for those who are eager to try and go through this. I think one can be realistic but in the meantime supportive and optimistic.

Sent from my SM-G928C using Tapatalk

I'm optimistic about Alamy. There's a few other sites that aren't awful but it would be too much of a push to be optimistic about them. Why pretend? I have no idea why anyone would want to join istock now and get 15% wile they take 85%, if you want to be optimistic about that, go ahead but don't ask me to be.

Chichikov · « **Reply #13 on:** September 04, 2017, 10:55 »

By reading the continual complaints about microscock sites and microstock business I really wonder what we all do here ......
I nevertheless came to a conclusion: we are masochists

Pauws99 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 04, 2017, 11:22 »

Quote from: Chichikov on September 04, 2017, 10:55

By reading the continual complaints about microscock sites and microstock business I really wonder what we all do here ......
I nevertheless came to a conclusion: we are masochists

Thats the puzzle some people detest the industry it makes them unhappy and they STILL do it. Perhaps they are not so confident that their work or the demand for their skills is really worth so much out in the big wide world?

niktol · « **Reply #15 on:** September 04, 2017, 11:40 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 07:51

I am new here and this is only my second post but I have read most of the recent topics and I can't help but notice the huge amount of frustration and disappointment and even discouragement sometimes ! I guess all newbies know that it's not a huge business, doesn't make u rich or even close but I think many of the friends who post and comment here are really discouraging. I know they are being realistic, I totally understand that, but you can be realistic and at the same time keep some optimistic views for those who are eager to try and go through this. I think one can be realistic but in the meantime supportive and optimistic.

Sent from my SM-G928C using Tapatalk

I am not sure what kind of support you are looking for. It's a very competitive business, so more often than not you are on your own. Information that would really help is typically confidential. It's not a walk in the park, so if someone's approach does not work, they get discouraged and pessimistic. Survival of the fittest so to speak. Personally I am cautiously optimistic and enjoy it very much, but it started as a research project for me, I may not share the same goals as other people.

angelawaye · « **Reply #16 on:** September 04, 2017, 11:54 »

Come back in 5 years and we'll see how optimistic you are ...

cthoman · « **Reply #17 on:** September 04, 2017, 11:59 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on September 04, 2017, 11:22

Quote from: Chichikov on September 04, 2017, 10:55
By reading the continual complaints about microscock sites and microstock business I really wonder what we all do here ......
I nevertheless came to a conclusion: we are masochists
Thats the puzzle some people detest the industry it makes them unhappy and they STILL do it. Perhaps they are not so confident that their work or the demand for their skills is really worth so much out in the big wide world?

For me, the forum changed depending on the stage of the industry. There was the golden age when there was a lot of positive news and talk (raises, new sites, etc.). Then, the industry shifted (not for the better), so there was a lot of discussion about how to make things better and supporting better paying sites, creating your own sites and fair commissions. A lot of that was positive, but it didn't quite make a dent. Now, I'm probably in the whatever mode. I pop in occasionally to see what's going on or get a funny jab in, but don't expect anything substantive to happen. Just waiting for the end or the next journey to occupy my attention... or maybe just football season.

Bad Company · « **Reply #18 on:** September 04, 2017, 13:37 »

Quote from: cthoman on September 04, 2017, 11:59

Quote from: Pauws99 on September 04, 2017, 11:22
Quote from: Chichikov on September 04, 2017, 10:55
By reading the continual complaints about microscock sites and microstock business I really wonder what we all do here ......
I nevertheless came to a conclusion: we are masochists
Thats the puzzle some people detest the industry it makes them unhappy and they STILL do it. Perhaps they are not so confident that their work or the demand for their skills is really worth so much out in the big wide world?

For me, the forum changed depending on the stage of the industry. There was the golden age when there was a lot of positive news and talk (raises, new sites, etc.). Then, the industry shifted (not for the better), so there was a lot of discussion about how to make things better and supporting better paying sites, creating your own sites and fair commissions. A lot of that was positive, but it didn't quite make a dent. Now, I'm probably in the whatever mode. I pop in occasionally to see what's going on or get a funny jab in, but don't expect anything substantive to happen. Just waiting for the end or the next journey to occupy my attention... or maybe just football season.

Very well said!

PS
Go Seahawks!

stockastic · « **Reply #19 on:** September 04, 2017, 13:40 »

Quote from: cthoman on September 04, 2017, 11:59

I pop in occasionally to see what's going on or get a funny jab in, but don't expect anything substantive to happen. Just waiting for the end or the next journey to occupy my attention...

Me too.

Bad Company · « **Reply #20 on:** September 04, 2017, 13:44 »

Quote from: angelawaye on September 04, 2017, 11:54

Come back in 5 years and we'll see how optimistic you are ...

That's pretty optimistic thinking that this business will last five more years

angelawaye · « **Reply #21 on:** September 04, 2017, 14:27 »

True. I don't think I will be doing microstock in 5 years but I'm sure some will.

dpimborough · « **Reply #22 on:** September 04, 2017, 14:34 »

A cardiologist most likely on a six figure salary in the UK selling photos for pennies?

What gives?

Anyway I quote your opening gambit on your thread of August 26th "Hello everyone. I have joined this amazing forum about a week ago"

Not amazing any more then I guess?

Wael · « **Reply #23 on:** September 04, 2017, 14:41 »

i do appreciate all the comments on this post, i am not that kind of person who would willingly allow for a false hope or miscalculated judgments. what i am trying to say is that you people, for sure, love photography and maybe some started doing it as a hobby like me and then loved it and enjoyed doing it. also, from what i have read so far in the forum, the vast majority are doing microstock business as a side stream income. based on that, why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

obj owl · « **Reply #24 on:** September 04, 2017, 15:27 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41

i do appreciate all the comments on this post, i am not that kind of person who would willingly allow for a false hope or miscalculated judgments. what i am trying to say is that you people, for sure, love photography and maybe some started doing it as a hobby like me and then loved it and enjoyed doing it. also, from what i have read so far in the forum, the vast majority are doing microstock business as a side stream income. based on that, why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

Tolerant to the point of self abuse at times, like when you spend weeks and months uploading hundreds of images and just when you get some traction and sales are increasing they delete the lot and tell you not quite what they are about anymore, Canva and Evanto. Like when 25% of your income comes from On Demand sales and the CEO proudly tells the speculators that he has changed pricing so now we only get a sub those sales, Shutterstock. Read and understand the comments above for many more instances then read it again until it sinks in.

You may be one of those who is happy for someone to like your image enough to buy it at any price, you will not be disappointed.

Shelma1 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 04, 2017, 15:38 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41

i do appreciate all the comments on this post, i am not that kind of person who would willingly allow for a false hope or miscalculated judgments. what i am trying to say is that you people, for sure, love photography and maybe some started doing it as a hobby like me and then loved it and enjoyed doing it. also, from what i have read so far in the forum, the vast majority are doing microstock business as a side stream income. based on that, why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

Main income, side income...it's still disappointing when you watch your earnings shrink even though you've become better at your craft and are working harder at it. When you're making less with 10,000 images than you did with 1,000, it's just not something to celebrate. When the sites you're working with find new and innovative ways to screw you over while the founders become millionaires and billionaires on your work, not so fun.

niktol · « **Reply #26 on:** September 04, 2017, 16:23 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41

i do appreciate all the comments on this post, i am not that kind of person who would willingly allow for a false hope or miscalculated judgments. what i am trying to say is that you people, for sure, love photography and maybe some started doing it as a hobby like me and then loved it and enjoyed doing it. also, from what i have read so far in the forum, the vast majority are doing microstock business as a side stream income. based on that, why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

You are poking the beehive

cthoman · « **Reply #27 on:** September 04, 2017, 16:41 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41

i do appreciate all the comments on this post, i am not that kind of person who would willingly allow for a false hope or miscalculated judgments. what i am trying to say is that you people, for sure, love photography and maybe some started doing it as a hobby like me and then loved it and enjoyed doing it. also, from what i have read so far in the forum, the vast majority are doing microstock business as a side stream income. based on that, why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

LOL. I'd love to show up at everybody else's job with 10,000 friends, each of us taking a small fraction of their paycheck, declare what fun this hobby is for some spare change, then tell them not to worry because I have a day job.

Sean Locke Photography · « **Reply #28 on:** September 04, 2017, 16:50 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41

why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

Yeah, that doesn't pay my medical insurance bill.

Bad Company · « **Reply #29 on:** September 04, 2017, 17:16 »

Quote from: niktol on September 04, 2017, 16:23

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41
i do appreciate all the comments on this post, i am not that kind of person who would willingly allow for a false hope or miscalculated judgments. what i am trying to say is that you people, for sure, love photography and maybe some started doing it as a hobby like me and then loved it and enjoyed doing it. also, from what i have read so far in the forum, the vast majority are doing microstock business as a side stream income. based on that, why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

You are poking the beehive

and I personally know there are a lot of bees in that hive

Semmick Photo · « **Reply #30 on:** September 04, 2017, 17:18 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41

i do appreciate all the comments on this post, i am not that kind of person who would willingly allow for a false hope or miscalculated judgments. what i am trying to say is that you people, for sure, love photography and maybe some started doing it as a hobby like me and then loved it and enjoyed doing it. also, from what i have read so far in the forum, the vast majority are doing microstock business as a side stream income. based on that, why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

I started out in 2012 and it was a hobby for me. My best month was 1100 dollar, that includes Shutterstock, several other agencies and Fine Art America. I thought I could grow my income and maybe turn pro. But it all came crashing down. FAA dried up, SS is in decline. Other agencies bring pennies. My monthly earnings are now between 300 and 800 dollar. The latter only when all planets line up and everything falls into place. So on average I lost 50% of my income whilst adding more images. And then I stopped adding images, as there is no way to keep up with the size of the libraries when you do not do this full time.

So if you are thinking to add a couple of nice images per month, as a hobby, to get some of pictures seen in a magazine, sure go for it. But if you expect to get serious dough from submitting your images, you need to stop as a doctor and turn full time pro photographer, submitting at least 100 high quality high commercial value images per month.

In the end though, my hobby paid for itself, I bought all the equipment I wanted and got some nice travels out of it.

This shot made me more than $1600 and I took it whilst drunk on a river tour in Chicago. Thats the fun part.

This shot with a model and a complete set up and story book made me 33 cent. Thats the frustrating part.

niktol · « **Reply #31 on:** September 04, 2017, 17:29 »

Quote from: Semmick Photo on September 04, 2017, 17:18

This shot with a model and a complete set up and story book made me 33 cent. Thats the frustrating part.

Yep, weird. The model is a lot cuter.

ShadySue · « **Reply #32 on:** September 04, 2017, 17:33 »

Quote from: Sean Locke Photography on September 04, 2017, 16:50

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41
why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

Yeah, that doesn't pay my medical insurance bill.

Which doesn't work as a 'dig' in the UK, but point taken.

Mantis · « **Reply #33 on:** September 04, 2017, 17:59 »

Quote from: Bad Company on September 04, 2017, 13:44

Quote from: angelawaye on September 04, 2017, 11:54
Come back in 5 years and we'll see how optimistic you are ...

That's pretty optimistic thinking that this business will last five more years

The industry is not going way in five years. It will just continue devolving.

Jo Ann Snover · « **Reply #34 on:** September 04, 2017, 18:35 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41

... why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

I've been licensing images through various microstock agencies since 2004. Some have been participating longer than that. Perhaps you can grasp that being told how we should feel by someone who is a relative newcomer is annoying. You also seem to suggest that contributors are just passive objects in a business we can't influence - it's more true now than it used to be, but the more people just accept the situation as something we cannot influence, the more true that becomes.

Given that you don't know anything about what's been going on as this business has evolved, you won't realize that the agencies that are now enriching themselves and their investors became successful because of a lot of hard work, mostly on the part of contributors to the agency. The agencies built the marketplaces/shopfronts and the good/savvy ones prospered. They absolutely deserve to make money from their efforts, but they've forgotten who brought them to the party and are now desperately trying to prop up their profits by squeezing contributors (among other things).

I'll spare you the long form of the story of how we got here, but lots of people have tried lots of adaptations to try and keep their income from their work going/growing and sometimes venting with other people who are in the same boat is a safety valve. If you look back at earlier posts you'll see many contributor led efforts which did result in improvements for contributors, but the power balance has shifted as the agency collections have grown and the widely dispersed contributor population means it's hard to get mass action.

It's fine that you have the optimism that largely comes from the lack of scar tissue, but please stay away from asking other people to ignore their own scars.

AlessandraRC · « **Reply #35 on:** September 04, 2017, 22:59 »

Per hour of work this is the worst pay I could ever imagine. Absolutely anything I do on the side for extra money earns more than stock in terms of pay for hours worked. I don't feel frustrated by it since I knew this might happen, its just not something I feel optimistic about.

namussi · « **Reply #36 on:** September 04, 2017, 23:42 »

Quote from: AlessandraRC on September 04, 2017, 22:59

Per hour of work this is the worst pay I could ever imagine.

More than 300m people in Africa live on $1.25 a day or less.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #37 on:** September 05, 2017, 01:28 »

Quote from: cthoman on September 04, 2017, 16:41

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41
i do appreciate all the comments on this post, i am not that kind of person who would willingly allow for a false hope or miscalculated judgments. what i am trying to say is that you people, for sure, love photography and maybe some started doing it as a hobby like me and then loved it and enjoyed doing it. also, from what i have read so far in the forum, the vast majority are doing microstock business as a side stream income. based on that, why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

LOL. I'd love to show up at everybody else's job with 10,000 friends, each of us taking a small fraction of their paycheck, declare what fun this hobby is for some spare change, then tell them not to worry because I have a day job.

From the very start wasn't one of microstock's selling points that hobbyists could make a few cents from their "snaps" if you chose to treat it as a job presumably you knew that?

PaulieWalnuts · « **Reply #38 on:** September 05, 2017, 01:45 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41

i do appreciate all the comments on this post, i am not that kind of person who would willingly allow for a false hope or miscalculated judgments. what i am trying to say is that you people, for sure, love photography and maybe some started doing it as a hobby like me and then loved it and enjoyed doing it. also, from what i have read so far in the forum, the vast majority are doing microstock business as a side stream income. based on that, why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

So what if you worked your a$$ off and the market covered your mortgage every month. Then you worked twice as hard but the market only covered your car. And you work even harder and the market only covered lunch at a fast food restaurant. Would you enjoy it and be tolerant? Probably not. Like most people you'll either quit and disappear or come here to grumpystockgroup.com where misery loves company and hope things will get better.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #39 on:** September 05, 2017, 01:56 »

Quote from: PaulieWalnuts on September 05, 2017, 01:45

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41
i do appreciate all the comments on this post, i am not that kind of person who would willingly allow for a false hope or miscalculated judgments. what i am trying to say is that you people, for sure, love photography and maybe some started doing it as a hobby like me and then loved it and enjoyed doing it. also, from what i have read so far in the forum, the vast majority are doing microstock business as a side stream income. based on that, why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

So what if you worked your a$$ off and the market covered your mortgage every month. Then you worked twice as hard but the market only covered your car. And you work even harder and the market only covered lunch at a fast food restaurant. Would you enjoy it and be tolerant? Probably not. Like most people you'll either quit and disappear or come here to grumpystockgroup.com where misery loves company and hope things will get better.

Quitting seems a rational response but there comes a point when coming on grumpy stock seems pointless...surely as professional photographers time would be better spent finding better ways of selling skills?

sharpshot · « **Reply #40 on:** September 05, 2017, 02:22 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 14:41

i do appreciate all the comments on this post, i am not that kind of person who would willingly allow for a false hope or miscalculated judgments. what i am trying to say is that you people, for sure, love photography and maybe some started doing it as a hobby like me and then loved it and enjoyed doing it. also, from what i have read so far in the forum, the vast majority are doing microstock business as a side stream income. based on that, why not just enjoy it and be a bit more tolerant to whatever this strange market brings ?!

I used to work in the NHS, so I know how people that work in that organisation have to be optimistic

Have you tried Alamy yet? They're based in the UK and sell a lot to UK customers, a big advantage for those of us in the UK. They pay 50% and if you're lucky, you can get a 4 figure payment from licensing one image. I think if I was just starting and already had a substantial income, living in the UK, I would probably just supply them. It takes a long time for them to start selling but the amount you make per sale is often much more that you get with microstock. They have a good forum too but don't mention microstock over there, I did it once but I think I got away with it.

Chichikov · « **Reply #41 on:** September 05, 2017, 04:10 »

Quote from: namussi on September 04, 2017, 23:42

Quote from: AlessandraRC on September 04, 2017, 22:59
Per hour of work this is the worst pay I could ever imagine.

More than 300m people in Africa live on $1.25 a day or less.

And a lot of others die with less

Brasilnut · « **Reply #42 on:** September 05, 2017, 04:32 »

Quote

I know they are being realistic, I totally understand that, but you can be realistic and at the same time keep some optimistic views for those who are eager to try and go through this.

As a relative newcomer to this business, I can't express the same frustration as other people since I've never seen how it was "in the good old days". Many on here are full-time photographers so if your livelihood is threatened with diminished returns it's only natural to feel hostile. I started submitting in 2009 but quit because I was couldn't take the rejections and took another shot against in 2012 and gladly stayed the course.

However, what I can say is that I tend to generally agree with you in that veterans need to be more encouraging to newbies while at the same time "keeping it real". I think that newbies need to look at microstock as an educational learning experience...and hopefully make enough to upgrade some equipment and pay for some photography trips once in a while. If you're only here to make money then any other "gig-economy" job will probably pay more.

My motto for microstock is:

Get in --> Learn about the technical and commercial/editorial side of the industry --> Diversify and look for more profitable opportunities else within photography.

The industry is ever-evolving and there's plenty of opportunities, just need to know where to find them.

Best of luck!

HalfFull · « **Reply #43 on:** September 05, 2017, 04:59 »

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 04:32

Quote

However, what I can say is that I tend to generally agree with you in that veterans need to be more encouraging to newbies while at the same time "keeping it real".

As has already been said, it's not our job to make others feel good about themselves in the world of Stock Photography. This sounds harsh but think about it for a moment. How many Solicitors, Mechanics or Accountants etc go round providing moral support to their competitors? Giving them advice on how to improve their business so they can ultimately take customers away from them.... None.

Moral support is the type of thing you'd find on photography groups or clubs. If that's what is needed then I guess the cut throat world of Stock Photography is not the place to to start until you're more confident and have a better idea on what you need to do. You should not expect moral support or advice from your competitors. Why would they want to improve your chances of taking more money away from them and reducing the food on the table for their family.... that would be plain foolish.

Personally, I make business decisions based on what is happening to me and not what others are saying. The advice could be wrong or deliberately misleading. Do you want to make financial decision based on a game of chance?

If it's a hobby, don't expect full timers to pass on info that will make it easier/quicker for you to make money...that could be money that was destined for their pockets. If someone does give you advice, don't treat it as gospel. You're better off doing the leg work yourself.... look around you, see what images are used and for what.

I'm constantly amazed by the numbers of people who fall over themselves to provide advice and support to newbies and in the next breath complain their income is dropping. Yes, this is harsh but thats business for you.

Noedelhap · « **Reply #44 on:** September 05, 2017, 07:30 »

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 04:32

veterans need to be more encouraging to newbies while at the same time "keeping it real".

Veterans don't need to do anything. Why should it be their job to encourage young newbie competitors? Posting some info about a new camera, or reviewing a rejected photo, sure, why not. But actively encouraging people to get ahead in this business? It's tough enough as it is.

We're all in the same boat, but if the boat is already sinking from the weight, it's every man for himself.

Brasilnut · « **Reply #45 on:** September 05, 2017, 07:42 »

Quote

We're all in the same boat, but if the boat is already sinking from the weight, it's every man for himself.

I think we all have something to learn from each other and we're on a big boat. A few snapshots of flowers and cats shouldn't affect our income.

I'm helping out a newbie at the moment who happens to be a web wizard / SEO specialist. In return he's going to help me with my website. win/win.

ShadySue · « **Reply #46 on:** September 05, 2017, 07:55 »

Two points:

We're not talking about setting up a barter here; that's different altogether.

The best advice for someone shooting 'flowers and cats' would be from someone else shooting flowers and cats. There wouldn't be much value in someone who shoots 'studio glamour' advising someone shooting flowers and cats (or vice versa). So the only useful advice would come from a direct rival, or someone shooting very similar subjects, who might themselves one day want to branch out into flowers and cats.

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 07:42

Quote
We're all in the same boat, but if the boat is already sinking from the weight, it's every man for himself.

I think we all have something to learn from each other and we're on a big boat. A few snapshots of flowers and cats shouldn't affect our income.

I'm helping out a newbie at the moment who happens to be a web wizard / SEO specialist. In return he's going to help me with my website. win/win.

Stickystock · « **Reply #47 on:** September 05, 2017, 08:56 »

Quote from: Noedelhap on September 05, 2017, 07:30

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 04:32
veterans need to be more encouraging to newbies while at the same time "keeping it real".

Veterans don't need to do anything. Why should it be their job to encourage young newbie competitors? Posting some info about a new camera, or reviewing a rejected photo, sure, why not. But actively encouraging people to get ahead in this business? It's tough enough as it is.

We're all in the same boat, but if the boat is already sinking from the weight, it's every man for himself.

Yep... I'm doing fine but when I say so I get called BS. So why bother helping competition.

Is Noodelhap Nederlands?

Bad Company · « **Reply #48 on:** September 05, 2017, 09:14 »

Quote from: Noedelhap on September 05, 2017, 07:30

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 04:32
veterans need to be more encouraging to newbies while at the same time "keeping it real".

We're all in the same boat, but if the boat is already sinking from the weight, it's every man for himself.

Don't forgot the talented women in this business as well

cthoman · « **Reply #49 on:** September 05, 2017, 09:46 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on September 05, 2017, 01:28

From the very start wasn't one of microstock's selling points that hobbyists could make a few cents from their "snaps" if you chose to treat it as a job presumably you knew that?

If you have several arms to your business, it's hard not to follow the one that is growing quickly. There was a time too when I thought parts of microstock were going to evolve past some of its crowdsourcing roots.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #50 on:** September 05, 2017, 10:25 »

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 04:32

However, what I can say is that I tend to generally agree with you in that veterans need to be more encouraging to newbies while at the same time "keeping it real".

Wrong!
Veterans have no interest to create or stimulate new competitors, unless they use forums as a marketing tool for other photography related businesses, such as promoting workshops (see Rinder & Co), trying to sell more "Microstock for Dummies" books to newbies (see you), etc!

Brasilnut · « **Reply #51 on:** September 05, 2017, 10:32 »

What's the point of a newbies section on here?

Sean Locke Photography · « **Reply #52 on:** September 05, 2017, 10:39 »

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 10:32

What's the point of a newbies section on here?

For newbies to get together and discuss things.

Noedelhap · « **Reply #53 on:** September 05, 2017, 12:14 »

Quote from: Stickystock on September 05, 2017, 08:56

Quote from: Noedelhap on September 05, 2017, 07:30
Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 04:32
veterans need to be more encouraging to newbies while at the same time "keeping it real".

Veterans don't need to do anything. Why should it be their job to encourage young newbie competitors? Posting some info about a new camera, or reviewing a rejected photo, sure, why not. But actively encouraging people to get ahead in this business? It's tough enough as it is.

We're all in the same boat, but if the boat is already sinking from the weight, it's every man for himself.

Yep... I'm doing fine but when I say so I get called BS. So why bother helping competition.

Is Noodelhap Nederlands?

Yep.

namussi · « **Reply #54 on:** September 06, 2017, 05:49 »

Quote from: Bad Company on September 05, 2017, 09:14

Don't forgot the talented women in this business as well

And those people who don't identify with traditional genital-based definitions.

Chichikov · « **Reply #55 on:** September 06, 2017, 07:39 »

Quote from: Sean Locke Photography on September 05, 2017, 10:39

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 10:32
What's the point of a newbies section on here?

For newbies to get together and discuss things.

So, a kind of segregation?

Sean Locke Photography · « **Reply #56 on:** September 06, 2017, 07:48 »

Quote from: Chichikov on September 06, 2017, 07:39

Quote from: Sean Locke Photography on September 05, 2017, 10:39
Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 10:32
What's the point of a newbies section on here?

For newbies to get together and discuss things.

So, a kind of segregation?

Kind of "likeminded".

Chichikov · « **Reply #57 on:** September 06, 2017, 09:18 »

Quote from: Sean Locke Photography on September 06, 2017, 07:48

Quote from: Chichikov on September 06, 2017, 07:39
Quote from: Sean Locke Photography on September 05, 2017, 10:39
Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 10:32
What's the point of a newbies section on here?

For newbies to get together and discuss things.

So, a kind of segregation?

Kind of "likeminded".

Yes, still segregation or sectarianism it is… or just a kind of elitism.

cthoman · « **Reply #58 on:** September 06, 2017, 09:33 »

It always seemed more topic based to me. Although for balance, can we get a "grizzled veteran" section because I've seen some stuff?

niktol · « **Reply #59 on:** September 06, 2017, 09:54 »

Quote from: Sean Locke Photography on September 05, 2017, 10:39

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 05, 2017, 10:32
What's the point of a newbies section on here?

For newbies to get together and discuss things.

And hazing.

Sean Locke Photography · « **Reply #60 on:** September 06, 2017, 10:26 »

Quote from: Chichikov on September 06, 2017, 09:18

Yes, still segregation or sectarianism it is… or just a kind of elitism.

No. They can hang out and post where every they like. If they want to discuss newbie topics with like minded newbies, then they post in ... wait for it ... the newbie forum. Try not to make drama where there isn't any.

Chichikov · « **Reply #61 on:** September 06, 2017, 10:54 »

Quote from: Sean Locke Photography on September 06, 2017, 10:26

Quote from: Chichikov on September 06, 2017, 09:18
Yes, still segregation or sectarianism it is… or just a kind of elitism.

No. They can hang out and post where every they like. If they want to discuss newbie topics with like minded newbies, then they post in ... wait for it ... the newbie forum. Try not to make drama where there isn't any.

I don't make any drama of it, but as behavior it remembers me the times when busses, bars, and other public places were forbidden to "not white people" in theUSA…
Or other countries, like Germany, Russia, China and others, where people were put in camps because they had different origins or different political ideas…

Sean Locke Photography · « **Reply #62 on:** September 06, 2017, 10:57 »

Yes. It's just like that.

Brasilnut · « **Reply #63 on:** September 06, 2017, 11:08 »

Quote

I don't make any drama of it, but as behavior it remembers me the times when busses, bars, and other public places were forbidden to "not white people" in theUSA…
Or other countries, like Germany, Russia, China and others, where people were put in camps because they had different origins or different political ideas…

I have a dream that one day this forum will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all contributors are created equal."

I have a dream that one day even the MSG forum, a place sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

ShadySue · « **Reply #64 on:** September 06, 2017, 12:16 »

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 06, 2017, 11:08

I have a dream that one day this forum will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all contributors are created equal."

The analogy doesn't work, as this forum has never stated that that was its creed, wheresas the US held it officially in their Declaration of Independence, even if it wasn't (and still isn't) obvious in the way people were being treated.

It is self evident that NOT all contributors are created equal. We are equal as human beings, but our net 'worth' as stock suppliers is not equal.

We can all equally stick in our tuppenceworth to any discussion on this forum, but some advice is more worthy of attention than others.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #65 on:** September 06, 2017, 12:42 »

Quote from: Sean Locke Photography on September 06, 2017, 10:57

Yes. It's just like that.

Yeah! And Leaf is no different than Stalin. He is a brutal dictator who is sending newbies to the newbie Gulag!

Brasilnut · « **Reply #66 on:** September 06, 2017, 13:31 »

I have a dream that newbies will one day live in a forum where they will not be judged by their lack of expertise but by the content of their character.

ShadySue · « **Reply #67 on:** September 06, 2017, 13:34 »

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 06, 2017, 13:31

I have a dream that newbies will one day live in a forum where they will not be judged by their lack of expertise but by the content of their character.

Oh, I think that happens. Though some bad eggs keep returning.

Surviving /succeeding in business isn't only about being 'well-liked'.
Being of good character doesn't mean that you'll be a good stock contributor, or that your well-meaning advice has any worth.

dpimborough · « **Reply #68 on:** September 06, 2017, 14:35 »

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 06, 2017, 11:08

Quote
I don't make any drama of it, but as behavior it remembers me the times when busses, bars, and other public places were forbidden to "not white people" in theUSA…
Or other countries, like Germany, Russia, China and others, where people were put in camps because they had different origins or different political ideas…

I have a dream that one day this forum will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all contributors are created equal."

I have a dream that one day even the MSG forum, a place sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

How tiresome

I prefer the Animal Farm version

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others

Sean Locke Photography · « **Reply #69 on:** September 06, 2017, 14:44 »

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 06, 2017, 13:31

I have a dream that newbies will one day live in a forum where they will not be judged by their lack of expertise but by the content of their character.

"The content of their ... content".

raclro · « **Reply #70 on:** September 06, 2017, 15:11 »

Some of the frustration comes from those of us who were in this fairly early and made rather good money, were happy and kind of proud to be part of the active iStock community, saw lots of views and sales, some beginning from the day a photo was accepted.
We then saw what seemed like an abusive relationship develop, directed from the agency toward it's uploading artists. Competition developed that made many of our portfolios an insignificant drop in the ocean (even with my 7000).
What looked like a trajectory of earnings that would be a very solid retirement if not full employment, dwindled to a few hundred dollars per month. Many of us were not pros and started it as a hobby, started earning real money, becoming a "pro" (If i can earn enough to buy a Porsche, I'm calling myself a pro). Then watched it collapse. Of course that is not the case for everyone, but for many of us this is why.
Uploading photos that get zero views in two years, is very poor incentive to keep at it.
If I was just starting for fun and earned my current $300 per month, I would be thrilled. It's the 80% drop I'm not thrilled about.

jamesbenet · « **Reply #71 on:** September 06, 2017, 16:29 »

If 90% of people got fed up with microstock and left taking their portfolios with them; then the 10% that remained would be seeing higher revenue and sales increases. Making the community much happier!

Then as word got out that microstock was a good business again droves of new and older veteran artists would flood the market once more to create a new cycle of oversupply, desperation, mistrust, and capitulation.

This of course taking into account that the companies do not fold in the process.

The only real change in the market I can see is Videoblocks which uses the Amazon Prime-like business model to reward the company and contributors with a sustainable model. Hopefully, it is future-proof.

fergregory · « **Reply #72 on:** September 07, 2017, 11:51 »

Quote from: wael_alreweie on September 04, 2017, 07:51

I am new here and this is only my second post but I have read most of the recent topics and I can't help but notice the huge amount of frustration and disappointment and even discouragement sometimes ! I guess all newbies know that it's not a huge business, doesn't make u rich or even close but I think many of the friends who post and comment here are really discouraging. I know they are being realistic, I totally understand that, but you can be realistic and at the same time keep some optimistic views for those who are eager to try and go through this. I think one can be realistic but in the meantime supportive and optimistic.

Sent from my SM-G928C using Tapatalk

7 years ago when I started doing some research about this, a friend told me that this was just a hobby and I would never make any real money out of it.
I'm glad I didn't listen.

Yes, this is a tough business, it is growing every day with lots and lots of new pictures that can easily bury yours if you don't keep up. (But this same talk has been here since forever so don't let this discourage you).
I agree with most photographers here, royalties aren't as good as you would like, only a few scents per sale and sometimes you get a few extra bucks with extra licenses. (But we all knew how royalties were going to be, and what we were getting into, so there's no point in complaining about this).
So my advice to you (and all newbies out there) is this, if you want to get into microstock do it, but its not just about the number of images in your portfolio, it also has to do with quality. and always think about the buyer and where he or she might use your images for.

Do your research, there's no point in doing a photo of an apple on a white background (there are thousands of those) if you are going to take a photo of an apple do it in a way that hasn't been done before.
Search for unexplored themes and shoot those!

Good luck on your start in microstock!
Hope this helps

PS: Shutterstock is my favorite

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DallasP · « **Reply #73 on:** September 07, 2017, 16:52 »

Quote from: Semmick Photo on September 04, 2017, 09:27

3% royalty on DP, doesnt get more optimistic than that, or 0.01c royalty on Istock. Or have royalty slashed from 70% to 30% because it is better for sales, is also quite optimistic. Or have ELs go from 28$ fixed to 30% of sales price. All very optimistic.

The only optimistic thing that happened was the closure of the Dollar Photo Club. Unfortunately not so optimistically was that I got kicked off Fotolia for fighting for our rights.

Lol. I just re-registered after the adobe purchase ... I wasn't given the boot though, I requested out. Maybe you can get back in?

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #74 on:** September 08, 2017, 02:38 »

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 06, 2017, 11:08

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [....] are created equal."

I've seen that somewhere else. Of course it's a ridiculous lie that no sensible person would believe.

Semmick Photo · « **Reply #75 on:** September 08, 2017, 02:51 »

Quote from: DallasP on September 07, 2017, 16:52

Quote from: Semmick Photo on September 04, 2017, 09:27
3% royalty on DP, doesnt get more optimistic than that, or 0.01c royalty on Istock. Or have royalty slashed from 70% to 30% because it is better for sales, is also quite optimistic. Or have ELs go from 28$ fixed to 30% of sales price. All very optimistic.

The only optimistic thing that happened was the closure of the Dollar Photo Club. Unfortunately not so optimistically was that I got kicked off Fotolia for fighting for our rights.

Lol. I just re-registered after the adobe purchase ... I wasn't given the boot though, I requested out. Maybe you can get back in?

I asked and was told no

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #76 on:** September 09, 2017, 22:34 »

I don't see anyone complaining that there's a Shutterstock forum and a Fotolia forum. Is it segregation that I can't (or shouldn't) post Shutterstock questions in the Fotolia forum? No. It's just a sensible way to keep everything tidy and organised. Why not have a place for newbies to post there if they want to, or in whatever forum they like as long as it's relevant? Can't see any harm in it.

niktol · « **Reply #77 on:** September 10, 2017, 06:37 »

Quote from: jamesbenet on September 06, 2017, 16:29

If 90% of people got fed up with microstock and left taking their portfolios with them; then the 10% that remained would be seeing higher revenue and sales increases. Making the community much happier!

Those 90% aren't the one creating the competition. I would very much prefer if the 10% left, while the 90% remained.

Brasilnut · « **Reply #78 on:** September 10, 2017, 12:59 »

Why would somebody in their right mind pull their portfolio if they got fed up with an agency? Makes more sense to just leave it and forget about it...then get some PayPal payment without expecting.

One example of when having a big ego does more harm than good.

trek · « **Reply #79 on:** September 10, 2017, 13:26 »

Quote from: Brasilnut on September 10, 2017, 12:59

Why would somebody in their right mind pull their portfolio if they got fed up with an agency? Makes more sense to just leave it and forget about it...then get some PayPal payment without expecting.

One example of when having a big ego does more harm than good.

Nonpayment (then theft) of contributor funds. (Revostock)
Partner programs with no opt out. (Panther)
Predatory price drops. (take your pick)

Are three reason to remove your port from low performing agencies.

Brasilnut · « **Reply #80 on:** September 10, 2017, 13:34 »

Quote

Nonpayment (then theft) of contributor funds. (Revostock)
Out of control partner program with no opt out. (Panther)
Predatory price drops. (take your pick)

Are three reason to remove your port from low performing agencies.

Fair enough. It's a lesson for all to only select top-tier agencies ---> see column on the right.

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