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Author Topic: Plane crashed in my front yard  (Read 4526 times)

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Shelma1

« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2017, 16:39 »
0
His engine exploded. Plane caught fire. Could have landed in the water because he was over the bay, but he figured my front lawn would be better.
I'd hazard a guess that landing on water would have a high probability of causing the plane to flip with likely fatal consequences. These small planes have fixed wheels, don't they? And wheels dipping into water would face tremendous drag.
But that's just a guess.

It's funny, because someone asked the pilot at the scene what he'd normally do in this situation, and he answered that he'd try to land the plane in water. What made him decide to head back to land instead of landing in the bay is anyone's guess. Another pilot did the same thing last year...he was over the Hudson River when his engine failed, and instead of trying the river he attempted to make it back to Teterboro airport, which was impossible. He ended up crashing a half mile from my parents' house in Cresskill, which is not too far inland from the river...and nowhere near any airport and many, many miles from Teterboro.


« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2017, 21:11 »
+1
His engine exploded. Plane caught fire. Could have landed in the water because he was over the bay, but he figured my front lawn would be better.
I'd hazard a guess that landing on water would have a high probability of causing the plane to flip with likely fatal consequences. These small planes have fixed wheels, don't they? And wheels dipping into water would face tremendous drag.
But that's just a guess.

Yes, you're right that ditching a plane with fixed wheels in the water is very bad news (not that going in with retracted wheels is a barrel of laughs.)

I used to fly and was based at a small airport that was surrounded on three sides by water. Pilots who flew there were trained to land differently from those who went into land-based airports. We came in "high and hot" so if we lost the engine on approach, we'd have enough height and speed to glide to the runway. No way did we want to go into the drink.

« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2017, 21:14 »
+1
His engine exploded. Plane caught fire. Could have landed in the water because he was over the bay, but he figured my front lawn would be better.
I'd hazard a guess that landing on water would have a high probability of causing the plane to flip with likely fatal consequences. These small planes have fixed wheels, don't they? And wheels dipping into water would face tremendous drag.
But that's just a guess.

It's funny, because someone asked the pilot at the scene what he'd normally do in this situation, and he answered that he'd try to land the plane in water. What made him decide to head back to land instead of landing in the bay is anyone's guess. Another pilot did the same thing last year...he was over the Hudson River when his engine failed, and instead of trying the river he attempted to make it back to Teterboro airport, which was impossible. He ended up crashing a half mile from my parents' house in Cresskill, which is not too far inland from the river...and nowhere near any airport and many, many miles from Teterboro.

I find this very strange. A water landing with fixed wheels is almost guaranteed to send the plane tumbling. As I mentioned in my other post, when I flew out of an airport surrounded by water, I was trained to approach  high and fast to allow a glide to the runway. We did everything possible to avoid a water landing.

That said, landing in rough terrain or trees is pretty tough too. We did overland training that involved looking for flat terrain to land on if the engine quit. The instructor actually killed the engine during these exercises and we had to go through the motions for the approach -- although thankfully, I was never required to land in someone's field. They generally don't instruct you to land on highways because of the power lines. Those will trip you as easily as water.

ETA: You can easily flip the plane even with retracted wheels, especially if one of the wings hits the water. One of the things that was so amazing when Sully put his plane down in the Hudson is that he didn't flip it.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 21:21 by polar »

« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2017, 21:22 »
+1
Wow! Glad you are ok.

Shelma1

« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2017, 22:04 »
0
His engine exploded. Plane caught fire. Could have landed in the water because he was over the bay, but he figured my front lawn would be better.
I'd hazard a guess that landing on water would have a high probability of causing the plane to flip with likely fatal consequences. These small planes have fixed wheels, don't they? And wheels dipping into water would face tremendous drag.
But that's just a guess.

It's funny, because someone asked the pilot at the scene what he'd normally do in this situation, and he answered that he'd try to land the plane in water. What made him decide to head back to land instead of landing in the bay is anyone's guess. Another pilot did the same thing last year...he was over the Hudson River when his engine failed, and instead of trying the river he attempted to make it back to Teterboro airport, which was impossible. He ended up crashing a half mile from my parents' house in Cresskill, which is not too far inland from the river...and nowhere near any airport and many, many miles from Teterboro.

I find this very strange. A water landing with fixed wheels is almost guaranteed to send the plane tumbling. As I mentioned in my other post, when I flew out of an airport surrounded by water, I was trained to approach  high and fast to allow a glide to the runway. We did everything possible to avoid a water landing.

That said, landing in rough terrain or trees is pretty tough too. We did overland training that involved looking for flat terrain to land on if the engine quit. The instructor actually killed the engine during these exercises and we had to go through the motions for the approach -- although thankfully, I was never required to land in someone's field. They generally don't instruct you to land on highways because of the power lines. Those will trip you as easily as water.

ETA: You can easily flip the plane even with retracted wheels, especially if one of the wings hits the water. One of the things that was so amazing when Sully put his plane down in the Hudson is that he didn't flip it.

Well, I guess he had to choose water or forest. And being from the other side of the country he was probably unfamiliar with the area. I'm still amazed that Sully was able to land that jet on the river.

But now I'm wondering...why not the beach? I have no idea how hard it would be to land on sand, but at least he'd have open space there. Maybe no lights would make it hard to see?

« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2017, 07:43 »
0
Ditching any aircraft in the water is extermely hazardous

https://youtu.be/pjZWB0-NqWA?t=25

« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2017, 09:33 »
+2
His engine exploded. Plane caught fire. Could have landed in the water because he was over the bay, but he figured my front lawn would be better.

I'd hazard a guess that landing on water would have a high probability of causing the plane to flip with likely fatal consequences. These small planes have fixed wheels, don't they? And wheels dipping into water would face tremendous drag.
But that's just a guess.


It's funny, because someone asked the pilot at the scene what he'd normally do in this situation, and he answered that he'd try to land the plane in water. What made him decide to head back to land instead of landing in the bay is anyone's guess. Another pilot did the same thing last year...he was over the Hudson River when his engine failed, and instead of trying the river he attempted to make it back to Teterboro airport, which was impossible. He ended up crashing a half mile from my parents' house in Cresskill, which is not too far inland from the river...and nowhere near any airport and many, many miles from Teterboro.


I find this very strange. A water landing with fixed wheels is almost guaranteed to send the plane tumbling. As I mentioned in my other post, when I flew out of an airport surrounded by water, I was trained to approach  high and fast to allow a glide to the runway. We did everything possible to avoid a water landing.

That said, landing in rough terrain or trees is pretty tough too. We did overland training that involved looking for flat terrain to land on if the engine quit. The instructor actually killed the engine during these exercises and we had to go through the motions for the approach -- although thankfully, I was never required to land in someone's field. They generally don't instruct you to land on highways because of the power lines. Those will trip you as easily as water.

ETA: You can easily flip the plane even with retracted wheels, especially if one of the wings hits the water. One of the things that was so amazing when Sully put his plane down in the Hudson is that he didn't flip it.


Well, I guess he had to choose water or forest. And being from the other side of the country he was probably unfamiliar with the area. I'm still amazed that Sully was able to land that jet on the river.

But now I'm wondering...why not the beach? I have no idea how hard it would be to land on sand, but at least he'd have open space there. Maybe no lights would make it hard to see?


I'm assuming that he was trained to look for flat terrain to land in, but sometimes there are no good choices. A  beach that was wet and hard-packed might work -- probably better than a forest. But you'd probably not have much luck if the sand is soft, dry and loose.

If you read accounts of Sully's landing, you'll see that one of their major concerns was making sure the plane was not yawed right or left on landing and that the wingtips were kept out of the water. Either would probably have caused the plane to cartwheel and/or break up. He had to be dead straight and level when he hit the water -- and he had no engines to control the plane's position. Plus he was very low in the air, having just taken off, and had less than four minutes to pull it off after losing his engines.

If he hadn't made an almost instantaneous decision to land in the water instead of trying for an airport, they probably wouldn't have made it. If he'd tried to go back to LaGuardia, he might well have crashed right in the middle of Manhattan. It was a truly remarkable feat of piloting and he probably saved many lives by doing what he did.

ETA: Regarding your comments about the relative safety of private versus commercial pilots, here's an interesting article by a former military and commercial pilot about how budget airlines are employing less experienced pilots to save money. She notes: "As one captain explained: Everybody wants their $99 ticket but added: you dont get [Captain] Sully for ninety-nine bucks. Instead, you you might get an accident waiting to happen."

http://theconversation.com/rising-number-of-inexperienced-pilots-may-lead-to-more-crashes-39593
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 10:02 by polar »

« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2017, 14:50 »
+1
Glad you're all OK - I just happened upon this thread a couple of days late. I did a search to see if I could find a news story, and there you are!

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pilot-Small-Plane-Crash-Eagleswood-Ocean-County-New-Jersey--422657324.html

I hope the water situation can be fixed quickly...

Shelma1

« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2017, 15:36 »
0
The pilot's insurance adjuster assured us someone will be coming to test the soil soon. I'm guessing that based on the location of the crash...downhill and 150 feet from my well...my water may not really be affected. Though I am drinking bottled water for now.

They need to talk to the pilot and check the fuel receipt to get an idea of how much fuel was on the plane. It all leaked except about 2 gallons. Really, it's amazing that a plane that was on fire and had the fuel tanks rupture did not explode. (The fire dept covered it with foam, of course.)

I do wish some of the witnesses who saw the plane on fire in the sky had called 911 before the plane crashed. I think I may be the only person who called. Several people told me they'd seen the plane in flames and just watched until it "disappeared," which is when it crashed. It wouldn't have stopped the crash, of course, but I'm really surprised none of them thought to report a flying plane on fire.

« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2017, 18:00 »
+1
glad you are not hurt! and you're all OK!

« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2017, 10:48 »
0
Happened last night. (Everyone's OK.)

Think I can make some money from editorial images? Lol.

I'd just like, as a public service, to let everyone know that small planes are extremely dangerous. In the U.S. they crash several times a day, with fatal crashes about 5 times a week. There's a saying that you're more likely to die in a car on the way to the airport than on a plane, but that saying only applies to large jetliners, which are extremely safe. Small planes (general aviation) account for 90% of air travel fatalities in the U.S.

In addition, they're one of the last forms of transportation to run on leaded gas (avgas), which has levels of lead 8 times higher than the leaded gasoline banned for use in cars. In fact, small planes contribute half the lead in he atmosphere.

This pilot had just filled his balsa-wood-and-papier-mache plane with lots of leaded gasoline, which all poured out into my front yard, where it will enter the water table. We've been warned not to drink our water (we have wells).

The plane missed my house by just a few yards, snapping branches off my trees as it traveled down my driveway and crashed into a stand of trees near the street. The pilot is from Texas, so I suppose I should feel honored that he flew all he way to my yard in New Jersey to crash.  ::)

Do you sit home and make this stuff up? Balsa wood and papier-mache plane? Really, it was made of that?
 
And any pilot who thinks landing a fixed wheel plane on water or a plowed field won't be telling you about it, they will be dead. Public service that small planes are dangerous? Of course they are, it's not news.

How deep is your well. Ground water doesn't just run downhill. It's into the aquafer, you can still have a problem.

Glad you and everyone is OK.

Shelma1

« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2017, 11:23 »
0
Happened last night. (Everyone's OK.)

Think I can make some money from editorial images? Lol.

I'd just like, as a public service, to let everyone know that small planes are extremely dangerous. In the U.S. they crash several times a day, with fatal crashes about 5 times a week. There's a saying that you're more likely to die in a car on the way to the airport than on a plane, but that saying only applies to large jetliners, which are extremely safe. Small planes (general aviation) account for 90% of air travel fatalities in the U.S.

In addition, they're one of the last forms of transportation to run on leaded gas (avgas), which has levels of lead 8 times higher than the leaded gasoline banned for use in cars. In fact, small planes contribute half the lead in he atmosphere.

This pilot had just filled his balsa-wood-and-papier-mache plane with lots of leaded gasoline, which all poured out into my front yard, where it will enter the water table. We've been warned not to drink our water (we have wells).

The plane missed my house by just a few yards, snapping branches off my trees as it traveled down my driveway and crashed into a stand of trees near the street. The pilot is from Texas, so I suppose I should feel honored that he flew all he way to my yard in New Jersey to crash.  ::)

Do you sit home and make this stuff up? Balsa wood and papier-mache plane? Really, it was made of that?
 
And any pilot who thinks landing a fixed wheel plane on water or a plowed field won't be telling you about it, they will be dead. Public service that small planes are dangerous? Of course they are, it's not news.

How deep is your well. Ground water doesn't just run downhill. It's into the aquafer, you can still have a problem.

Glad you and everyone is OK.

Well obviously balsa wood and paper mch was sarcastic. The plane was actually made of a flimsy metal frame with fabric stretched over it. I've seen Oscar gowns with more heft.

I think "small planes are dangerous" probably is news to a lot of people. We're always told you're more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the airport than on the plane, so it was news to me that that only applies to jetliners. Small planes are actually more dangerous than cars.

After two rounds of soil testing it turns out that our soil is heavily contaminated with lead (duh) and will have to be removed...sent to a landfill somewhere, where it will eventually be capped and unsuspecting people will buy homes built on top of it. I feel badly for the guys they've sent out to dig up the soil for testing. They spend hours wallowing in lead contamination with no protective gear. That's a lawsuit in the making.

But thanks for your snarky reply to my hair-raising situation.

« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2017, 12:16 »
+3
"I feel badly for the guys they've sent out to dig up the soil for testing. They spend hours wallowing in lead contamination with no protective gear. That's a lawsuit in the making."

It puzzles me that they would not have protective gear. Surely they must have known there was a risk of lead contamination because that's why they were doing the tests.

« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2017, 12:28 »
0
"I feel badly for the guys they've sent out to dig up the soil for testing. They spend hours wallowing in lead contamination with no protective gear. That's a lawsuit in the making."

It puzzles me that they would not have protective gear. Surely they must have known there was a risk of lead contamination because that's why they were doing the tests.

Wow and yes you would think they had more sense.

The most commonly used woods are Sitka spruce and Douglas fir, which offer excellent strength-to-weight ratios. Wooden structural members are joined with adhesive, usually epoxy. Unlike the wood construction techniques used in other applications, virtually all wooden joints in aircraft are simple butt joints, with plywood gussets. Joints are designed to be stronger than the members. After the structure has been completed, the aircraft is covered in aircraft fabric (usually aircraft-grade polyester).

I suppose asking for accurate details or facts is also snarky.  :)  Jim must have missed the sarcastic part and mistook it for reporting, like the safety warning? Or was that sarcasm as well?

"They land and take off right over the roof of my house," Paccione said. "So this is absolutely a fear that we live with every day."  Ah, so he wasn't going to ditch in the water because he was trying to take off. Must be fun watching the small planes fly over and see all the different designs. I had a friend who bought a house near the airport and then complained that planes flew over and made noise. I asked her, "who would have guessed?" Yes that was sarcastic.

Also glad that everyone at home and your house is OK. Ground cleanup should be a complicated nasty business.

https://thesandpaper.villagesoup.com/p/small-plane-crashes-near-eagles-nest-airport/1653042
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 12:32 by YadaYadaYada »

Shelma1

« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2017, 15:30 »
+1
"I feel badly for the guys they've sent out to dig up the soil for testing. They spend hours wallowing in lead contamination with no protective gear. That's a lawsuit in the making."

It puzzles me that they would not have protective gear. Surely they must have known there was a risk of lead contamination because that's why they were doing the tests.

Wow and yes you would think they had more sense.

The most commonly used woods are Sitka spruce and Douglas fir, which offer excellent strength-to-weight ratios. Wooden structural members are joined with adhesive, usually epoxy. Unlike the wood construction techniques used in other applications, virtually all wooden joints in aircraft are simple butt joints, with plywood gussets. Joints are designed to be stronger than the members. After the structure has been completed, the aircraft is covered in aircraft fabric (usually aircraft-grade polyester).

I suppose asking for accurate details or facts is also snarky.  :)  Jim must have missed the sarcastic part and mistook it for reporting, like the safety warning? Or was that sarcasm as well?

"They land and take off right over the roof of my house," Paccione said. "So this is absolutely a fear that we live with every day."  Ah, so he wasn't going to ditch in the water because he was trying to take off. Must be fun watching the small planes fly over and see all the different designs. I had a friend who bought a house near the airport and then complained that planes flew over and made noise. I asked her, "who would have guessed?" Yes that was sarcastic.

Also glad that everyone at home and your house is OK. Ground cleanup should be a complicated nasty business.

https://thesandpaper.villagesoup.com/p/small-plane-crashes-near-eagles-nest-airport/1653042

Do I need to go into the history of my town's political corruption? The fact that the guy who used to own our neighborhood served on the town's land use board and decided to carve up his property into illegal 1-acre lots right in the airport hazard zone...then the town changed the zoning to comply with the law the minute he sold everything off (and moved out of state)?

The fact that most of my neighbors were not informed of the airport, which was also illegal? The fact that I called the land use board before I bought my house and asked what was happening with the airport, and they lied and told me it would probably close and never grow any larger...so they could get a cut of the property sale?

How about the guy who bought the defunct airport (who lives 100 miles from here) and installed a paved runway in the middle of the night with no permits? (Before that it was a barely-used grass strip.) Or that the airport had one flight every few weeks when I moved here and suddenly has more than 80 flights per day?

And the fact that we've sounded the alarm about our illegally zoned neighborhood for years, and predicted a plane would crash in our neighborhood, which was exactly what happened?

People aren't morons, you know. If there had been planes flying here when I looked at this property I never would have moved here. Never. If my neighbors had known there was an airport they wouldn't have moved here.

So now what do we do? Sell our homes to other people so they can get killed by a plane? I don't want to be hit by a plane, but what if a family with small children buys my house? I really don't want the guilt of having a family killed by a plane instead.

Pilots always point the finger at the stupid homeowners who move near airports and then complain. They never point the finger at airport owners who expand airports, knOwing they'll increase the danger to the community, or local governments who put profit ahead of people's lives, or even themselves, when they fly into a situation they know is dangerous but want to save 50 cents on gas so they'll take the route right over people's homes anyway.

« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2017, 09:38 »
0
Political morons and corruption, I know where you are with that. Seems to happen almost everywhere.

Happy 4th I hope no more flaming planes land in your trees.

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« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2017, 21:05 »
+2
Everybody wants their $99 ticket but added: you dont get [Captain] Sully for ninety-nine bucks.

Well you do, because even the 2018 standard price of a mid-January flight from La Guardia to Charlotte, on a Thursday, on American Airlines, is $78... but why let accuracy get in the way of a good soundbite, right? Not sure what it was in 2009, but I'm guessing it wouldn't have been more than $99 if it's $78 currently.


 

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