MicrostockGroup

Agency Based Discussion => Shutterstock.com => Topic started by: Brasilnut on October 06, 2017, 06:07

Title: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Brasilnut on October 06, 2017, 06:07
I've been thinking about this for a few days.

Would it be possible to encourage clients to use up all their allowance per day/month to help contributors out? From what I've been reading and speaking to some buyers, most don't even use up all their allowance and this hurts us.

I know that SS would never encourage this as they would lose money on this, but any form of campaign contributors can do to persuade buyers?

It's only a few quarters but does add up...any thoughts?
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 06, 2017, 06:10
I've been thinking about this for a few days.

Would it be possible to encourage clients to use up all their allowance per day/month to help contributors out? From what I've been reading and speaking to some buyers, most don't even use up all their allowance and this hurts us.

I know that SS would never encourage this as they would lose money on this, but any form of campaign contributors can do to persuade buyers?

It's only a few quarters but does add up...any thoughts?
If it worked though they'd put commissions down.....the business model relies on customers not using their quota.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: JetCityImage on October 06, 2017, 06:49
If you personally know a client, absolutely, ask them to use their extra subs on your port - the only downside I see is that you wouldn't want to rely on the extra downloads for forecasting purposes.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: YadaYadaYada on October 06, 2017, 09:34
I've been thinking about this for a few days.

Would it be possible to encourage clients to use up all their allowance per day/month to help contributors out? From what I've been reading and speaking to some buyers, most don't even use up all their allowance and this hurts us.

I know that SS would never encourage this as they would lose money on this, but any form of campaign contributors can do to persuade buyers?

It's only a few quarters but does add up...any thoughts?
If it worked though they'd put commissions down.....the business model relies on customers not using their quota.

Winner put a box around that Pauws99 quote. We'd make a little bit for a short time and everyone would lose after that.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: memakephoto on October 06, 2017, 10:16
I've been thinking about this for a few days.

Would it be possible to encourage clients to use up all their allowance per day/month to help contributors out? From what I've been reading and speaking to some buyers, most don't even use up all their allowance and this hurts us.

I know that SS would never encourage this as they would lose money on this, but any form of campaign contributors can do to persuade buyers?

It's only a few quarters but does add up...any thoughts?

If you, as a contributor, contacted me, as a buyer, to encourage me to download images I may not need just to use up my subscription, I would be annoyed. I would contact Shutterstock support and complain about being harassed by contributors, give them your name and encourage them to deal with it.

Then you could write a book about how not to get your account disabled.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Zero Talent on October 06, 2017, 10:38
I've been thinking about this for a few days.

Would it be possible to encourage clients to use up all their allowance per day/month to help contributors out? From what I've been reading and speaking to some buyers, most don't even use up all their allowance and this hurts us.

I know that SS would never encourage this as they would lose money on this, but any form of campaign contributors can do to persuade buyers?

It's only a few quarters but does add up...any thoughts?
If it worked though they'd put commissions down.....the business model relies on customers not using their quota.

Winner put a box around that Pauws99 quote. We'd make a little bit for a short time and everyone would lose after that.

I have to be "brutally honest": it looks like the author of the "Brutally Honest Guide to Microstock ..." lacks a fundamental understanding of the Microstock industry dynamics.

And maybe even a more general understanding of the finite resource systems and their economics.

All you can eat restaurants, cell phone plans, banks, insurance companies, number of cashiers in supermarkets, number of elevators in skyscrapers, number of toilets in offices, etc, all are designed based on similar acceptable statistical risks, acceptable congestion levels, acceptable losses, etc.

All would go bust or crash, if a sudden (but very unlikely) massive amount of customers or users would rush to abuse those finite resource systems.

Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 06, 2017, 11:22
If everyone ate like me in all you can eat Restaurants...they'd be bust in a week ;-).  Though it that case its the huge markups they make on Drinks and other extras that keep it working too.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Brasilnut on October 06, 2017, 11:41
Quote
Then you could write a book about how not to get your account disabled.

Quote
I have to be "brutally honest": it looks like the author of the "Brutally Honest Guide to Microstock ..." lacks a fundamental understanding of the Microstock industry dynamics.

I don't understand why I'm getting personally attacked. I just put an idea out there to discuss. Perhaps it has merit, perhaps not but attack the idea, not the individual, please.

Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Zero Talent on October 06, 2017, 12:23
Quote
Then you could write a book about how not to get your account disabled.

Quote
I have to be "brutally honest": it looks like the author of the "Brutally Honest Guide to Microstock ..." lacks a fundamental understanding of the Microstock industry dynamics.

I don't understand why I'm getting personally attacked. I just put an idea out there to discuss. Perhaps it has merit, perhaps not but attack the idea, not the individual, please.

Understood. (*being gently honest*) My apologies.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Chichikov on October 06, 2017, 12:42
I've been thinking about this for a few days.

Would it be possible to encourage clients to use up all their allowance per day/month to help contributors out? From what I've been reading and speaking to some buyers, most don't even use up all their allowance and this hurts us.

I know that SS would never encourage this as they would lose money on this, but any form of campaign contributors can do to persuade buyers?

It's only a few quarters but does add up...any thoughts?

If you, as a contributor, contacted me, as a buyer, to encourage me to download images I may not need just to use up my subscription, I would be annoyed. I would contact Shutterstock support and complain about being harassed by contributors, give them your name and encourage them to deal with it.

Then you could write a book about how not to get your account disabled.

You can just refuse, and stop.

If you do all the rest of what you are saying you are no more than a ^%#@\÷… Are you?
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: niktol on October 07, 2017, 14:16
I've been thinking about this for a few days.

Would it be possible to encourage clients to use up all their allowance per day/month to help contributors out? From what I've been reading and speaking to some buyers, most don't even use up all their allowance and this hurts us.

I know that SS would never encourage this as they would lose money on this, but any form of campaign contributors can do to persuade buyers?

It's only a few quarters but does add up...any thoughts?

Or, if you have contacts with paying customers, you could encourage them to buy direct.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: namussi on October 08, 2017, 01:20
What would be in it for the subscriber?

So... how about paying subscribers to use up their quotas by downloading your pix?


Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 08, 2017, 01:26
I would rather encourage buyers to move away from subs and go to sites that pay us 50%.  If they aren't using much of their download quota and we aren't getting paid much, it seems like a bad deal for both of us.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 08, 2017, 02:09
I would rather encourage buyers to move away from subs and go to sites that pay us 50%.  If they aren't using much of their download quota and we aren't getting paid much, it seems like a bad deal for both of us.
Thing is they don't need to use much of the quota for it to be good value. I suspect for many its simply the convenience factor of not having to spend time thinking about it...in the same way I might get better value if I had pay per view tv...I'm not going to log in and pay every time I watch something.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: qwerty on October 08, 2017, 03:38
I would rather encourage buyers to move away from subs and go to sites that pay us 50%.  If they aren't using much of their download quota and we aren't getting paid much, it seems like a bad deal for both of us.
Thing is they don't need to use much of the quota for it to be good value. I suspect for many its simply the convenience factor of not having to spend time thinking about it...in the same way I might get better value if I had pay per view tv...I'm not going to log in and pay every time I watch something.

especially if they don't personally benefit on going to pay per image. i.e. big company - hassle getting approval for many small purchases. If they go with a subscription they can do it once per year. If it's a one person show they have more incentive to minimise costs.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: dpimborough on October 08, 2017, 11:16
Quote
Then you could write a book about how not to get your account disabled.

Quote
I have to be "brutally honest": it looks like the author of the "Brutally Honest Guide to Microstock ..." lacks a fundamental understanding of the Microstock industry dynamics.

I don't understand why I'm getting personally attacked. I just put an idea out there to discuss. Perhaps it has merit, perhaps not but attack the idea, not the individual, please.

You are not being attacked they are criticising your point of view

It's all quite healthy  ;D
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Brasilnut on October 09, 2017, 04:30
Quote
You are not being attacked they are criticising your point of view

It's all quite healthy  ;D

It's all good and I don't take it personally.

I just find that personal attacks defeat the purpose of a forum.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: DiscreetDuck on October 09, 2017, 04:52
any thoughts?
Your proposal is just not a brilliant idea.
There are more evident solutions to value one's work or revenue than begging the customer to help (and I don't think about writing books).
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Brasilnut on October 09, 2017, 05:14
Quote
There are more evident solutions to value one's work or revenue than begging the customer to help

I agree that begging is not professional. Nor is the analogy with the buffet since eating more food not to go to waste helps nobody.

I was thinking of a more of an educational campaign to alert buyers of the plight of contributors and diminishing returns. How they may be more generous by using their full allowance. However, upon deeper analysis it's probably a flawed strategy since, as many have pointed out, the business model relies on customers not using their full allowance. If they were to do so, management would be forced to reassess.

Would SS ever send out an email alert to buyers to "support contributors" in such a way? Doubt it, since it would go against their own interests and they're not a charity.

Sometimes even the most wacky ideas have merit, but in this case probably not.   :)
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: SpaceStockFootage on October 09, 2017, 05:19
I was thinking of a more of an educational campaign to alert buyers of the plight of contributors and diminishing returns.

Maybe you could write to Amnesty International, see if they could step in.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 09, 2017, 05:33
I wonder if we could set up a peer-to-peer network and cut out the middlemen that are taking most of our money?  I'm sure someone cleverer than me can put together everything we need to sell image licenses at very low cost.  People are using blockchain technology for similar things now, we just need one of them to work on it specifically for stock images.  It would be ideal for buyers too because we could sell for low prices if we are making close to 100%.  It's good to see the internet starting to reject a few big businesses taking all the money.  I think there's a revolution coming and it's going to be great for us.  Now you can all call me crazy  :)
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: SpaceStockFootage on October 09, 2017, 05:45
Not sure how that would work. You're still going to need a site to show off the work, marketing to get the word out, a means to upload, store, transfer and review files. Pretty much everything that a current stock site needs... so I'm not sure where the savings would be.

But I probably know less than you when it comes to blockchain action... so I could be wrong!
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 09, 2017, 08:45
You have to forget everything that the current sites do.  It's something completely different.  There's some really smart people developing blockchain technology solutions, I just hope some of them like selling stock images.  I can see how it would be much better than anything we have now for both contributors and buyers.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Zero Talent on October 09, 2017, 08:54
Quote
There are more evident solutions to value one's work or revenue than begging the customer to help

I agree that begging is not professional. Nor is the analogy with the buffet since eating more food not to go to waste helps nobody.

I was thinking of a more of an educational campaign to alert buyers of the plight of contributors and diminishing returns. How they may be more generous by using their full allowance. However, upon deeper analysis it's probably a flawed strategy since, as many have pointed out, the business model relies on customers not using their full allowance. If they were to do so, management would be forced to reassess.

Would SS ever send out an email alert to buyers to "support contributors" in such a way? Doubt it, since it would go against their own interests and they're not a charity.

Sometimes even the most wacky ideas have merit, but in this case probably not.   :)

You got it!
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: increasingdifficulty on October 09, 2017, 08:58
You have to forget everything that the current sites do.  It's something completely different.  There's some really smart people developing blockchain technology solutions, I just hope some of them like selling stock images.  I can see how it would be much better than anything we have now for both contributors and buyers.

It's not some sort of magic. It's just another way to send money (and avoid taxes). Marketing, storage, uploading etc. is still relevant. Storage can of course be "in the cloud" in a peer-to-peer system, but SOMEONE must store your images, and that someone would have to be you at first, meaning if your computer is not online, your images aren't. There must always be a server somewhere storing the assets, and when you go into the hundreds of millions, that costs money.

Marketing must still be done. How will the general population know about it? Why do you think Shutterstock/iStock show up as soon as I type "stock...". Because they spend millions and millions of dollars making sure they do.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: JimP on October 09, 2017, 09:32
Quote
Then you could write a book about how not to get your account disabled.

Quote
I have to be "brutally honest": it looks like the author of the "Brutally Honest Guide to Microstock ..." lacks a fundamental understanding of the Microstock industry dynamics.

I don't understand why I'm getting personally attacked. I just put an idea out there to discuss. Perhaps it has merit, perhaps not but attack the idea, not the individual, please.

Granted, the idea sucks and is stupid. Not you, the idea.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 09, 2017, 10:46
I wonder if we could set up a peer-to-peer network and cut out the middlemen that are taking most of our money?  I'm sure someone cleverer than me can put together everything we need to sell image licenses at very low cost.  People are using blockchain technology for similar things now, we just need one of them to work on it specifically for stock images.  It would be ideal for buyers too because we could sell for low prices if we are making close to 100%.  It's good to see the internet starting to reject a few big businesses taking all the money.  I think there's a revolution coming and it's going to be great for us.  Now you can all call me crazy  :)
I'm not sure its "Block Chain Technology" that would do it. But what probably would is some kind of hyper smart search technology that could deliver to the customer's desktop the most suitable image with the correct licences etc. at the best price wherever it is located on the web......I'm not sure we would like the outcome though as usually there is someone in the world prepared to sell cheaper than you ;-). So no its not going to be great.......
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 09, 2017, 11:04
You have to forget everything that the current sites do.  It's something completely different.  There's some really smart people developing blockchain technology solutions, I just hope some of them like selling stock images.  I can see how it would be much better than anything we have now for both contributors and buyers.

It's not some sort of magic. It's just another way to send money (and avoid taxes). Marketing, storage, uploading etc. is still relevant. Storage can of course be "in the cloud" in a peer-to-peer system, but SOMEONE must store your images, and that someone would have to be you at first, meaning if your computer is not online, your images aren't. There must always be a server somewhere storing the assets, and when you go into the hundreds of millions, that costs money.

Marketing must still be done. How will the general population know about it? Why do you think Shutterstock/iStock show up as soon as I type "stock...". Because they spend millions and millions of dollars making sure they do.
I'm not sure about avoiding taxes because there's ways to do that using the sites we have now.  Most people realise it isn't a good thing to do.  With most of the cryptocurrencies, transactions are recorded and can be seen by anyone.  Have a look at every transaction in my Steemit account https://steemit.com/@sharpshot/transfers  It doesn't cost much to get 16 TB of hard drive space.  That should store enough images to keep most buyers happy.  Using a network of those drives in many locations with constant fast internet access will cost some money but we can make our own currency, so that's not a problem.  I was skeptical about all this a few weeks ago but now I think there's something in it.  You just have to get your head around a new way of doing business that's unlike anything that's out there in the stock images indusrty at the moment.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: increasingdifficulty on October 09, 2017, 11:22
Using a network of those drives in many locations with constant fast internet access will cost some money but we can make our own currency, so that's not a problem.

That's an interesting sentence right there.  :o

---

Anyway, you can do all of that without blockchain payments. It's called starting your own site.

This is what's needed:

Content
Storage
Delivery
Marketing
Payment

The only thing that's different with cryptocurrency would be payment.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 09, 2017, 12:49
I don't think so, if we have our own site, we all have to pay for our own hosting, like Symbiostock that hasn't really worked.  The alternative is to all pay for one site and that's never worked on a large scale.  Then there's paying for marketing and it's just another site like all the others with no USP that's attractive to buyers.  Having our own currency is a USP.  Using blockchain technology for many things, like protecting copyright, is something other sites don't offer.  It's tearing up the way things have been done so far and coming up with a different solution.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: increasingdifficulty on October 09, 2017, 12:57
I don't think so, if we have our own site, we all have to pay for our own hosting, like Symbiostock that hasn't really worked.  The alternative is to all pay for one site and that's never worked on a large scale.  Then there's paying for marketing and it's just another site like all the others with no USP that's attractive to buyers.  Having our own currency is a USP.  Using blockchain technology for many things, like protecting copyright, is something other sites don't offer.  It's tearing up the way things have been done so far and coming up with a different solution.

Yes, but you make it seem like the servers and everything related to them are free. They have to physically exist somewhere. The only real difference here is the currency. And for regular people, that is not something positive, unfortunately. You have a currency that could change its value 50% over one day. Since people who buy stock products work regular jobs and get paid in regular currencies, there is an exchange that must happen at some point.

And is marketing free? No, you have to market where people look. Today, that's Google. They do business in USD last time I checked.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 09, 2017, 13:49
I don't think so, if we have our own site, we all have to pay for our own hosting, like Symbiostock that hasn't really worked.  The alternative is to all pay for one site and that's never worked on a large scale.  Then there's paying for marketing and it's just another site like all the others with no USP that's attractive to buyers.  Having our own currency is a USP.  Using blockchain technology for many things, like protecting copyright, is something other sites don't offer.  It's tearing up the way things have been done so far and coming up with a different solution.

Yes, but you make it seem like the servers and everything related to them are free. They have to physically exist somewhere. The only real difference here is the currency. And for regular people, that is not something positive, unfortunately. You have a currency that could change its value 50% over one day. Since people who buy stock products work regular jobs and get paid in regular currencies, there is an exchange that must happen at some point.

And is marketing free? No, you have to market where people look. Today, that's Google. They do business in USD last time I checked.
Yes, USD that seems to be losing its value all the time.  Printed by governments that have built up a massive debt and still spend more than they collect in taxes.  It's hard to get your head around cryptocurrencies and how they work but I found it impossible to understand how the banking crisis happened and how we all ended up in the mess we're in today.  There might be a time when a cryptocurrency is a positive thing for the majority of people.  I remember how weird people thought the internet was in the 90's and how most people thought it was a fad.  Things often change in time.  It might be a few years off but there's no harm in investigating it now.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: increasingdifficulty on October 09, 2017, 13:59
There might be a time when a cryptocurrency is a positive thing for the majority of people.  I remember how weird people thought the internet was in the 90's and how most people thought it was a fad.  Things often change in time.  It might be a few years off but there's no harm in investigating it now.

Yes, there might. Currency is just an agreement between people. Instead of trading a chicken for one night on my couch we can use this thing we call money. The most important thing is how many are part of that agreement. All currencies are of course made up, but a currency 1 billion people agree on, compared to 20,000, will be a heck of a lot more stable and useful.

I'm not against these currencies, I'm just saying that a stock site using cryptocurrencies is not that different from any site today. It's mainly just the currency. A currency that TODAY is a huge gamble for anyone.

In order to make any significant money selling stock photos you need a few million potential buyers.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 09, 2017, 16:00
"You have a currency that could change its value 50% over one day." or 100% in a few hours.....sure its been a great earner but there is a huge downside risk.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 09, 2017, 16:01
There might be a time when a cryptocurrency is a positive thing for the majority of people.  I remember how weird people thought the internet was in the 90's and how most people thought it was a fad.  Things often change in time.  It might be a few years off but there's no harm in investigating it now.

Yes, there might. Currency is just an agreement between people. Instead of trading a chicken for one night on my couch we can use this thing we call money. The most important thing is how many are part of that agreement. All currencies are of course made up, but a currency 1 billion people agree on, compared to 20,000, will be a heck of a lot more stable and useful.

I'm not against these currencies, I'm just saying that a stock site using cryptocurrencies is not that different from any site today. It's mainly just the currency. A currency that TODAY is a huge gamble for anyone.

In order to make any significant money selling stock photos you need a few million potential buyers.
No, it's something completely different. All the value of the business is in the currency and there's no owners or shareholders to pay off.  Anyone can buy from anywhere in the world without PayPal or all the other alternatives with their high fees.  Everyone can be their own bank, get their money almost instantly and not have it stolen.  There's no returning money for credit card fraud or charge-backs.  A developer paid 10,000 bitcoins for 2 pizzas in 2010 and that would now be worth over $48 million dollars.  So it isn't as simple as it being a huge gamble for everyone.  Some argue that keeping money in dollars is the gamble now because bitcoin has limited supply and dollars can be printed off whenever a government wants to, we will see in a few years time.  I know this isn't something for right now but it's sparked my interest.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 09, 2017, 16:09
There might be a time when a cryptocurrency is a positive thing for the majority of people.  I remember how weird people thought the internet was in the 90's and how most people thought it was a fad.  Things often change in time.  It might be a few years off but there's no harm in investigating it now.

Yes, there might. Currency is just an agreement between people. Instead of trading a chicken for one night on my couch we can use this thing we call money. The most important thing is how many are part of that agreement. All currencies are of course made up, but a currency 1 billion people agree on, compared to 20,000, will be a heck of a lot more stable and useful.

I'm not against these currencies, I'm just saying that a stock site using cryptocurrencies is not that different from any site today. It's mainly just the currency. A currency that TODAY is a huge gamble for anyone.

In order to make any significant money selling stock photos you need a few million potential buyers.
No, it's something completely different. All the value of the business is in the currency and there's no owners or shareholders to pay off.  Anyone can buy from anywhere in the world without PayPal or all the other alternatives with their high fees.  Everyone can be their own bank, get their money almost instantly and not have it stolen.  There's no returning money for credit card fraud or charge-backs.  A developer paid 10,000 bitcoins for 2 pizzas in 2010 and that would now be worth over $48 million dollars.  So it isn't as simple as it being a huge gamble for everyone.  Some argue that keeping money in dollars is the gamble now because bitcoin has limited supply and dollars can be printed off whenever a government wants to, we will see in a few years time.  I know this isn't something for right now but it's sparked my interest.
It could easily be a limited supply of something nobody wants or needs....you have to have government currency to function. Past price history is no guide to future price...how much is a Black Tulip now? I could easily be wrong of course but its a huge gamble.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 09, 2017, 16:12
"You have a currency that could change its value 50% over one day." or 100% in a few hours.....sure its been a great earner but there is a huge downside risk.
Yes, but you have to consider the risk with the traditional currencies too.  While almost everyone can see the risk with cryptocurrencies, the major fiat currencies aren't doing well.  What used to be called devaluation is now called quantitative easing.  The gold standard has gone, there's nothing backing the currencies up now.  Gold might be a good option but that's not easy to buy goods with on the internet.  People used to exchange shells and stones before coins and paper came along.  Maybe we will look back at this time and think how funny it was that governments printed our money, built up huge debts and never paid them off?
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 09, 2017, 16:23
"You have a currency that could change its value 50% over one day." or 100% in a few hours.....sure its been a great earner but there is a huge downside risk.
Yes, but you have to consider the risk with the traditional currencies too.  While almost everyone can see the risk with cryptocurrencies, the major fiat currencies aren't doing well.  What used to be called devaluation is now called quantitative easing.  The gold standard has gone, there's nothing backing the currencies up now.  Gold might be a good option but that's not easy to buy goods with on the internet.  People used to exchange shells and stones before coins and paper came along.  Maybe we will look back at this time and think how funny it was that governments printed our money, built up huge debts and never paid them off?
Yep but I'm not going to swap my money for gold or try bartering at the supermarket .....we have to have government based currency to live a "normal" life so there is a floor unless we all go to hell in a handcart...no one has to have a Bitcoin.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 09, 2017, 16:54
Maybe I have spent too much time watching this
http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html (http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html)
and this
https://www.etoro.com/markets/btc/chart (https://www.etoro.com/markets/btc/chart)
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: SpaceStockFootage on October 09, 2017, 19:39
With most of the cryptocurrencies, transactions are recorded and can be seen by anyone.

How does that benefit the average seller or buyer?

Having our own currency is a USP

But not a very good one. Having a talking dolphin as your CFO is a USP, but it's not one that's going to make people form an orderly queue to start buying. 

Using blockchain technology for many things, like protecting copyright, is something other sites don't offer.

How does it protect copyright though? Copyright laws protect copyright, individuals and lawyers pursue cases of copyright infringement, and licenses make sure everyone knows the rules and what they can and can't do with an image. How would blockchain technology change that?

All the value of the business is in the currency and there's no owners or shareholders to pay off.

Well, the value of the business would be in the currency and also the business itself. Then you've got two things that can fail... the currency, or the business itself. Wouldn't it be better to ditch the currency and then the business can succeed or fail on its own merits. Would be a shame if a great site was brought down due to it not being a great currency.

Anyone can buy from anywhere in the world without PayPal or all the other alternatives with their high fees.

Doesn't cost me a penny when I use Paypal to buy stock. They want $100, I transfer $100, they get $100 and it has cost me $100. Sure, currency conversion is slightly different.

Everyone can be their own bank, get their money almost instantly and not have it stolen.

That's debatable! I think losing it would be the main concern though.

There's no returning money for credit card fraud or charge-backs.

So no protection for genuine buyers?

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure alternative forms of currency will become the norm in the future, and I'm sure they will have undeniable benefits, but my point is... why would the use of blockchain technology create a better stock site? Sure, the ability to pay using an alt-currency could be a seen as a small benefit, but I can't see anything within the technology that is going to eliminate the majority of things you need to run a successful stock site, or the money required to run it.









Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 10, 2017, 01:57
I see the currency like owning a slice of the company, like shares but divided between more people and not one person or entity controlling the majority of them.  The currency doesn't fail if the business is good in the same way that shares don't fail if the business is good.  I think it's a good USP because if its done right, a cryptocurrency doesn't have deflationary problems and can significantly outperform the dollar.  So anyone holding it is effectively earning money.

If you want some ideas as to how it could help with copyright protection, look at this http://blog.melchersystem.com/photography-blockchain-technology/ (http://blog.melchersystem.com/photography-blockchain-technology/)

This is early days, I don't expect anything useful to come along for a few years and there are obvious problems but I do think it could be advantageous for contributors and buyers.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 10, 2017, 02:42
I see the currency like owning a slice of the company, like shares but divided between more people and not one person or entity controlling the majority of them.  The currency doesn't fail if the business is good in the same way that shares don't fail if the business is good.  I think it's a good USP because if its done right, a cryptocurrency doesn't have deflationary problems and can significantly outperform the dollar.  So anyone holding it is effectively earning money.

If you want some ideas as to how it could help with copyright protection, look at this [url]http://blog.melchersystem.com/photography-blockchain-technology/[/url] ([url]http://blog.melchersystem.com/photography-blockchain-technology/[/url])

This is early days, I don't expect anything useful to come along for a few years and there are obvious problems but I do think it could be advantageous for contributors and buyers.
Not sure about that analogy as shares are based on a share of something tangible (though look at railway mania). A crypto currency is based on a group of people  considering  it has a value.....like a government currency but without the parachute. In the long term maybe it will work but Government are going to try very hard to made sure it doesn't as without a currency we don't have a state as currently understood. To me its more like art collection.....at the moment lots of arts experts agree that Picassos have a value and there is a finite supply. There is also a finite supply of my uncle Jim's creations but he remains undiscovered....if the art world decided he were a genius and Picasso a charlatan then the values would be reversed ;-).
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: increasingdifficulty on October 10, 2017, 04:12
A developer paid 10,000 bitcoins for 2 pizzas in 2010 and that would now be worth over $48 million dollars.  So it isn't as simple as it being a huge gamble for everyone. 

What? I would say that is the very definition of being a huge gamble. One of the biggest gambles in history. :o

And currencies are already traded like shares, in the case of the USD, USA is the "business".

And share prices are set by PEOPLE's beliefs in a business (and many other psychological factors), which of course usually are connected to how the business is doing, but not necessarily.

There are countless bio tech companies that have zero revenue, lose money for years, while their stock is worth hundreds of millions. This is based on someone's HOPE for the future (or educated guess).
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 10, 2017, 04:30
There's a never ending supply of dollars.  There will only ever be 21 million bitcoins and the market cap is currently much less than any of the big banks.  If it reaches only a fraction of its potential, it seems good value now.  If it gets mass adoption and takes over from visa, mastercard, paypal etc, who knows what the price will be?  It could be another bubble but it could also be an S curve.  It's a gamble but the best investors I know diversify and don't have all their eggs in one basket.  I have no problem putting a bit of money I can afford to lose into something that's high risk.  Never understood why people either have too much fear or take too much risk?  There is a sensible way to take advantage of a situation without losing much and having the potential to make a lot.  I would fear leaving my money to gradually rot away in a bank much more.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: increasingdifficulty on October 10, 2017, 04:52
We're not discussing whether or not cryptocurrencies are a good idea to invest in. We were talking about how a stock site using only cryptocurrency as payment would be a revolutionary thing.

You could just take all of your USD microstock earnings today and buy cryptocurrencies. Voila. Same thing. The only difference here is saving some money by not having to go via PayPal.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 10, 2017, 06:17
There's no point in just having a cryptocurrency for payments, everything needs to work differently to the sites we currently use.  Here's something that might help the music industry http://opus-foundation.org/ (http://opus-foundation.org/)
Perhaps one day we will have something similar to try?  I know this technology is in its infancy and there's nothing out there that's earth shattering at the moment but that doesn't stop me hoping that the internet can adapt and give us better options than we have now.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: increasingdifficulty on October 10, 2017, 06:41
I will check out OPUS, as music is my main thing and most of my living income.

But it's not Spotify or iTunes that take most of your money. It's the record labels. As an independent artist, I get 70% almost everywhere. And once again, the good places to sell music is where millions of people go to look for music. This means iTunes, Apple Music and Spotify (and YouTube). 100% of $1 is still less than 70% of $10,000...

It looks interesting though, and I will have to do further research to form an educated opinion.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: YadaYadaYada on October 11, 2017, 08:53
Bitcoins are risky and could have a drop much more than money from a government which is backed by gold or silver. Contrary to what some people claim, the governments don't just print money as they need it.

http://www.finra.org/investors/alerts/bitcoin-more-bit-risky (http://www.finra.org/investors/alerts/bitcoin-more-bit-risky)

"A growing number of physical establishments and exchanges allow customers to buy and sell bitcoins using cash, credit cards, money orders and other methods." If bitcoin is the currency why do they need to buy them with other methods?
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 11, 2017, 09:31
Bitcoins are risky and could have a drop much more than money from a government which is backed by gold or silver. Contrary to what some people claim, the governments don't just print money as they need it.

[url]http://www.finra.org/investors/alerts/bitcoin-more-bit-risky[/url] ([url]http://www.finra.org/investors/alerts/bitcoin-more-bit-risky[/url])

"A growing number of physical establishments and exchanges allow customers to buy and sell bitcoins using cash, credit cards, money orders and other methods." If bitcoin is the currency why do they need to buy them with other methods?
Sorry but there isn't much gold or silver to back up the dollar.  I think there was only about 5% when Nixon scrapped it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock)
How do you buy any currency?  I've yet to find the one that grows on trees :)
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Zero Talent on October 11, 2017, 12:04
We talk about "virtual" money vs "real" money, when most of our "real" money is in fact virtual, today. Banks are allowed to credit 10 times more than the physical money in circulation. So ~90% of what we consider "real", is already nothing else than bits and bytes in a server.

Even more: all money is nothing else than a product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to facilitate trade between strangers. We often don't trust strangers as humans, but we trust their money. This is why crypto-currencies or, in other words, imaginary, virtual money can work as well, or as bad as "real" currencies. All are the same, in the end.

The only problem with the crypto-currencies is trust, the abstraction that makes "real" money work. Good (i.e. trustworthy) money has always chased away bad money, even when endorsed by local untrustworthy governments.

It might take a while before the market will trust these alternative currencies, even if free competition will be allowed.
However, this far from being the case. There are very clear signs that very powerful governments are not permiting a free currency market to flourish, in order to protect their money "printing" (or QE) monopoly.
I just read news about the US government accusing of money laundering individuals hosting crypto-currency servers, seeking their extradition and hundreds of millions of "real" money penalties.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 11, 2017, 15:46
We talk about "virtual" money vs "real" money, when, in fact, most of our "real" money is in fact virtual, today. Banks are allowed to credit 10 times more than the physical money in circulation. So ~90% of what we consider "real", is already nothing else than bits and bytes in a server.

Even more: all money is nothing else than a product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to facilitate trade between strangers. We often don't trust strangers as humans, but we trust their money. This is why crypto-currencies or, in other words, imaginary, virtual money can work as well, or as bad as "real" currencies. All are the same, in the end.

The only problem with the crypto-currencies is trust, the abstraction that makes "real" money work. Good (i.e. trustworthy) money has always chased away bad money, even when endorsed by local untrustworthy governments.

It might take a while before the market will trust these alternative currencies, even if free competition will be allowed.
However, this far from being the case. There are very clear signs that very powerful governments are not permiting a free currency market to flourish, in order to protect their money "printing" (or QE) monopoly.
I just read news about the US government accusing of money laundering individuals hosting crypto-currency servers, seeking their extradition and hundreds of millions of "real" money penalties.
In a lot of places around the world right now, there's more trust in bitcoin than the local currency.  Crooks use cryptocurrencies but they also use fiat currencies.  I found this interesting about some governments around the world that are going through the five stages of grief.

1. Deny it (it’s too small to have an impact, they say at this stage)
2. Ban it in anger (this thing is growing, we have to crush it)
3. Realize impossibility of a ban (because of their own corruption mostly, they use it themselves but don’t want the common folk to use it)
4. Try to control it, coopt it, and mold it to their likes. They believe their own illusion for a while and think they have managed to do it but the reality is they have lost control completely. (This is the stage the Cuban government is at right now with “El Paquete”)
5. Capitulation and collapse of the monopoly. The old regime is fundamentally changed or violently toppled.
https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@cryptoeagle/why-china-or-governments-can-t-stop-crypto-how-chuck-norris-proves-this-fact-from-communist-history
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: SpaceStockFootage on October 11, 2017, 16:45
Not sure if an article on a cryptocurrency site could be considered the most impartial or reliable of sources. Especially one with a picture of Chuck Norris at the top.

It's like an article in Fiat Currencies Weekly saying that crypto-currency is no good.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 11, 2017, 16:59
We talk about "virtual" money vs "real" money, when, in fact, most of our "real" money is in fact virtual, today. Banks are allowed to credit 10 times more than the physical money in circulation. So ~90% of what we consider "real", is already nothing else than bits and bytes in a server.

Even more: all money is nothing else than a product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to facilitate trade between strangers. We often don't trust strangers as humans, but we trust their money. This is why crypto-currencies or, in other words, imaginary, virtual money can work as well, or as bad as "real" currencies. All are the same, in the end.

The only problem with the crypto-currencies is trust, the abstraction that makes "real" money work. Good (i.e. trustworthy) money has always chased away bad money, even when endorsed by local untrustworthy governments.

It might take a while before the market will trust these alternative currencies, even if free competition will be allowed.
However, this far from being the case. There are very clear signs that very powerful governments are not permiting a free currency market to flourish, in order to protect their money "printing" (or QE) monopoly.
I just read news about the US government accusing of money laundering individuals hosting crypto-currency servers, seeking their extradition and hundreds of millions of "real" money penalties.
Good summary I think. If Crypto currencies do take over or become serious competitors to government currencies the concept of nations as we understand it will change.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 11, 2017, 17:14
Not sure if an article on a cryptocurrency site could be considered the most impartial or reliable of sources. Especially one with a picture of Chuck Norris at the top.

It's like an article in Fiat Currencies Weekly saying that crypto-currency is no good.
True but I think its interesting to read different points of view and draw your own conclusions.  Don't those five stages of grief ring any bells with the way some countries around the world are reacting to bitcoin at the moment?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-cenbank-bitcoin/russia-turns-cold-on-crypto-currencies-idUSKBN1CF0RF (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-cenbank-bitcoin/russia-turns-cold-on-crypto-currencies-idUSKBN1CF0RF)
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/18/16326078/chinese-regulators-ban-cryptocurrency-platforms-bitcoin (https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/18/16326078/chinese-regulators-ban-cryptocurrency-platforms-bitcoin)
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/30/venezuela-is-one-of-the-worlds-most-dangerous-places-to-mine-bitcoin.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/30/venezuela-is-one-of-the-worlds-most-dangerous-places-to-mine-bitcoin.html)
http://www.techzim.co.zw/2017/09/bitcoin-fetches-85pct-premium-in-zimbabwe/ (http://www.techzim.co.zw/2017/09/bitcoin-fetches-85pct-premium-in-zimbabwe/)
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 11, 2017, 17:17
We talk about "virtual" money vs "real" money, when, in fact, most of our "real" money is in fact virtual, today. Banks are allowed to credit 10 times more than the physical money in circulation. So ~90% of what we consider "real", is already nothing else than bits and bytes in a server.

Even more: all money is nothing else than a product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to facilitate trade between strangers. We often don't trust strangers as humans, but we trust their money. This is why crypto-currencies or, in other words, imaginary, virtual money can work as well, or as bad as "real" currencies. All are the same, in the end.

The only problem with the crypto-currencies is trust, the abstraction that makes "real" money work. Good (i.e. trustworthy) money has always chased away bad money, even when endorsed by local untrustworthy governments.

It might take a while before the market will trust these alternative currencies, even if free competition will be allowed.
However, this far from being the case. There are very clear signs that very powerful governments are not permiting a free currency market to flourish, in order to protect their money "printing" (or QE) monopoly.
I just read news about the US government accusing of money laundering individuals hosting crypto-currency servers, seeking their extradition and hundreds of millions of "real" money penalties.
In a lot of places around the world right now, there's more trust in bitcoin than the local currency.  Crooks use cryptocurrencies but they also use fiat currencies.  I found this interesting about some governments around the world that are going through the five stages of grief.

1. Deny it (it’s too small to have an impact, they say at this stage)
2. Ban it in anger (this thing is growing, we have to crush it)
3. Realize impossibility of a ban (because of their own corruption mostly, they use it themselves but don’t want the common folk to use it)
4. Try to control it, coopt it, and mold it to their likes. They believe their own illusion for a while and think they have managed to do it but the reality is they have lost control completely. (This is the stage the Cuban government is at right now with “El Paquete”)
5. Capitulation and collapse of the monopoly. The old regime is fundamentally changed or violently toppled.
https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@cryptoeagle/why-china-or-governments-can-t-stop-crypto-how-chuck-norris-proves-this-fact-from-communist-history
Kind of lost it for me when he described China as a "communist" country ;-).
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Zero Talent on October 12, 2017, 02:15
We talk about "virtual" money vs "real" money, when, in fact, most of our "real" money is in fact virtual, today. Banks are allowed to credit 10 times more than the physical money in circulation. So ~90% of what we consider "real", is already nothing else than bits and bytes in a server.

Even more: all money is nothing else than a product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to facilitate trade between strangers. We often don't trust strangers as humans, but we trust their money. This is why crypto-currencies or, in other words, imaginary, virtual money can work as well, or as bad as "real" currencies. All are the same, in the end.

The only problem with the crypto-currencies is trust, the abstraction that makes "real" money work. Good (i.e. trustworthy) money has always chased away bad money, even when endorsed by local untrustworthy governments.

It might take a while before the market will trust these alternative currencies, even if free competition will be allowed.
However, this far from being the case. There are very clear signs that very powerful governments are not permiting a free currency market to flourish, in order to protect their money "printing" (or QE) monopoly.
I just read news about the US government accusing of money laundering individuals hosting crypto-currency servers, seeking their extradition and hundreds of millions of "real" money penalties.
Good summary I think. If Crypto currencies do take over or become serious competitors to government currencies the concept of nations as we understand it will change.
Not necessarily.
The concept of nations is as you put it: a concept, another product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to convince total strangers to cooperate, in order to achieve common goals. This is why the concept of nations can very well function independently from the concept of money. Strangers can be influenced to cooperate, for a common goal, independently from the tools they use.

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 12, 2017, 03:05
We talk about "virtual" money vs "real" money, when, in fact, most of our "real" money is in fact virtual, today. Banks are allowed to credit 10 times more than the physical money in circulation. So ~90% of what we consider "real", is already nothing else than bits and bytes in a server.

Even more: all money is nothing else than a product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to facilitate trade between strangers. We often don't trust strangers as humans, but we trust their money. This is why crypto-currencies or, in other words, imaginary, virtual money can work as well, or as bad as "real" currencies. All are the same, in the end.

The only problem with the crypto-currencies is trust, the abstraction that makes "real" money work. Good (i.e. trustworthy) money has always chased away bad money, even when endorsed by local untrustworthy governments.

It might take a while before the market will trust these alternative currencies, even if free competition will be allowed.
However, this far from being the case. There are very clear signs that very powerful governments are not permiting a free currency market to flourish, in order to protect their money "printing" (or QE) monopoly.
I just read news about the US government accusing of money laundering individuals hosting crypto-currency servers, seeking their extradition and hundreds of millions of "real" money penalties.
Good summary I think. If Crypto currencies do take over or become serious competitors to government currencies the concept of nations as we understand it will change.
Not necessarily.
The concept of nations is as you put it: a concept, another product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to convince total strangers to cooperate, in order to achieve common goals. This is why the concept of nations can very well function independently from the concept of money. Strangers can be influenced to cooperate, for a common goal, independently from the tools they use.

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.
You have a fair point.....though ultimately they are still under some government control. If a currency falls outside any imposed controls I just can't envisage what it will look like...but very different I think.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: YadaYadaYada on October 12, 2017, 09:05
Bitcoins are risky and could have a drop much more than money from a government which is backed by gold or silver. Contrary to what some people claim, the governments don't just print money as they need it.

[url]http://www.finra.org/investors/alerts/bitcoin-more-bit-risky[/url] ([url]http://www.finra.org/investors/alerts/bitcoin-more-bit-risky[/url])

"A growing number of physical establishments and exchanges allow customers to buy and sell bitcoins using cash, credit cards, money orders and other methods." If bitcoin is the currency why do they need to buy them with other methods?
Sorry but there isn't much gold or silver to back up the dollar.  I think there was only about 5% when Nixon scrapped it? [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock[/url])
How do you buy any currency?  I've yet to find the one that grows on trees :)


You'll like this

"Bitcoin smashed through the $5,000 barrier for the first time ever on Thursday, jumping as much as 7 percent to chalk up its biggest daily rise in over two weeks.

Bitcoin, the original and still the biggest cryptocurrency, has been on a tear recently, rallying nearly 75 percent in barely a month.

It has chalked up a more than fivefold increase in price since the start of the year."

Remember the stock market, big gains and high excitement as people saw fortunes. The Dow is now at a record high. Could that be the same as the Bitcoin, are they related as investments? Higher bids and selling prices, a perception that the stock/bitcoin was increasing in value. What happens next? Any significant drop will trigger a selling spree based on fear, which leads to more fear and more selling and a crash.

Here's what backs money of the world currently, the dollar, euro, yen, and every other major currency, is backed directly by the stability of the society that issues it. Not gold or silver and the US was the last country to back their money with metals.

Fort Knox holds around $300 billion dollars in precious metals. That's just a sign for stability, since the US money isn't backed by that gold. The US mint makes about $600 million dollars a year, producing coins. That means the cost of the production is less than the value and people buy the coins for the face value.

Who produces the Bitcoin and do they make a profit from the trading and futures? Who regulates and monitors the issuance, mining and trading?
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 12, 2017, 10:03
Yes, now I just wish I had bought some more.  The real money now might be in altcoins that nobody has heard of.  I'm mining one called BiblePay that's worth almost nothing now but is very easy to get.  If that rockets, I'll be buying a Hasselblad :)
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: SpaceStockFootage on October 12, 2017, 23:20
If that rockets, I'll be buying a Hasselblad :)

Correction. If they rocket as much as Bitcoin, you'll be buying Hasselblad... rather than buying a Hasselblad.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 13, 2017, 00:23
I'm not counting my chickens.  All I have so far is a small loss from the cost of electricity.  Nice to dream of making enough to buy Getty and put Sean in charge though :)
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: namussi on October 13, 2017, 02:14

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.

Multiple means simply "more than two".

Are talking about a handful of companies, or dozens?
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 13, 2017, 02:22

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.

Multiple means simply "more than two".

Are talking about a handful of companies, or dozens?
To be pedantic...more than one ;-).
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: namussi on October 13, 2017, 04:37

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.

Multiple means simply "more than two".

Are talking about a handful of companies, or dozens?
To be pedantic...more than one ;-).

Oops.

Nevertheless, the definitions are ambiguous. Dictionaries say multiple means "two or more" but also can mean "several", and several, of course, means "more than two".
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 13, 2017, 04:59

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.

Multiple means simply "more than two".

Are talking about a handful of companies, or dozens?
To be pedantic...more than one ;-).

Oops.

Nevertheless, the definitions are ambiguous. Dictionaries say multiple means "two or more" but also can mean "several", and several, of course, means "more than two".
several is a very vague term so beloved of politicians and marketing people ;-).
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Zero Talent on October 13, 2017, 07:13

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.

Multiple means simply "more than two".

Are talking about a handful of companies, or dozens?
To be pedantic...more than one ;-).

"Multiple" nations don't have their own currency. Map attached.
(https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/places-in-the-world-without-a-national-currency_mapbuilder.png?w=800)

"Multiple" nations tolerate trade in dollars, even North Korea, believe it or not.

"Multiple" nations pegged their currency to a foreign one, Bulgaria, Denmark, Cuba, Bosnia etc

Not sure why you say "companies".

Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on October 13, 2017, 07:24
IMHO it is a bit of a misnomer to call bitcoin a currency. It is really more of a sort of digital commodity and store of value that can be used a currency under some circumstances (in the same way that if I want to sell something and you offer me a good price in gold I would take it, especially if I can easily and quickly change that gold to whatever local currency I want to). 

Other cryptos are closer to true currencies in their characteristics, but no one knows which ones will take off.

I believe BTC is here for the long run and will make overall gains with lots of bumps along the way for a few years until speculators are outnumbered by people using it as a store of value. That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: YadaYadaYada on October 13, 2017, 10:21
I'm not counting my chickens.  All I have so far is a small loss from the cost of electricity.  Nice to dream of making enough to buy Getty and put Sean in charge though :)

There's some positive thinking. I like that.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 13, 2017, 16:36
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: YadaYadaYada on October 16, 2017, 14:48
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....

Plus the usual fraud people who will sell something or Bitcoin that they don't own or doesn't exist. Sorry anything named Biblepay scares me from any consideration. People who use religion as a way of playing like they are legit are thick as thieves.

Did someone answer? Who or what backs Bitcoin and the confidence in it's value? Unlike a government, it's somewhat mysterious and anonymous. The guy who created bitcoin hasn't been heard from since 2011? I'm not sold on it yet, but I'll give it a chance, so I'm not saying it's wrong either.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9)

Looked at Biblepay, might be something good, 10% tithe goes to charity and 75% efficiency for that distribution. Better than some anonymous crypto currency.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 17, 2017, 10:13
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....

Plus the usual fraud people who will sell something or Bitcoin that they don't own or doesn't exist. Sorry anything named Biblepay scares me from any consideration. People who use religion as a way of playing like they are legit are thick as thieves.

Did someone answer? Who or what backs Bitcoin and the confidence in it's value? Unlike a government, it's somewhat mysterious and anonymous. The guy who created bitcoin hasn't been heard from since 2011? I'm not sold on it yet, but I'll give it a chance, so I'm not saying it's wrong either.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9)
Funny thing with currencies and maybe even more so with bitcoins is do they really exist at all? They certainly have no independent existence from humans ;-. As I understand it the only thing that gives Bitcoin its value is enough people believe it has value.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: increasingdifficulty on October 17, 2017, 10:29
Funny thing with currencies and maybe even more so with bitcoins is do they really exist at all? They certainly have no independent existence from humans ;-. As I understand it the only thing that gives Bitcoin its value is enough people believe it has value.

That's the case with most things that we value, but cannot eat, or sleep in.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 17, 2017, 11:00
Funny thing with currencies and maybe even more so with bitcoins is do they really exist at all? They certainly have no independent existence from humans ;-. As I understand it the only thing that gives Bitcoin its value is enough people believe it has value.

That's the case with most things that we value, but cannot eat, or sleep in.
Yes to my second sentence. So the decision whether to invest is really around whether you believe this belief will continue...it might it might not that's the risk.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Zero Talent on October 17, 2017, 11:15
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....

Plus the usual fraud people who will sell something or Bitcoin that they don't own or doesn't exist. Sorry anything named Biblepay scares me from any consideration. People who use religion as a way of playing like they are legit are thick as thieves.

Did someone answer? Who or what backs Bitcoin and the confidence in it's value? Unlike a government, it's somewhat mysterious and anonymous. The guy who created bitcoin hasn't been heard from since 2011? I'm not sold on it yet, but I'll give it a chance, so I'm not saying it's wrong either.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9)
Funny thing with currencies and maybe even more so with bitcoins is do they really exist at all? They certainly have no independent existence from humans ;-. As I understand it the only thing that gives Bitcoin its value is enough people believe it has value.

Yes, indeed. The same thing is valid for what we consider "real" money.
Money is only a product of our collective imagination. Not necessarily because 90% of it is already virtual like Bitcoin (hence having "no independent existence from humans", not even physically), but because their value is only in our heads.

A piece of "something" made of 75% cotton and 25% linen is not worth $100.
It is $100 only in our imagination, even when we can physically touch that cheap piece of cloth or paper.

This is because money is not material anymore, money is trust.
Trust lives in our heads and has "no independent existence from humans"

Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 17, 2017, 16:00
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....

Plus the usual fraud people who will sell something or Bitcoin that they don't own or doesn't exist. Sorry anything named Biblepay scares me from any consideration. People who use religion as a way of playing like they are legit are thick as thieves.

Did someone answer? Who or what backs Bitcoin and the confidence in it's value? Unlike a government, it's somewhat mysterious and anonymous. The guy who created bitcoin hasn't been heard from since 2011? I'm not sold on it yet, but I'll give it a chance, so I'm not saying it's wrong either.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9)
Funny thing with currencies and maybe even more so with bitcoins is do they really exist at all? They certainly have no independent existence from humans ;-. As I understand it the only thing that gives Bitcoin its value is enough people believe it has value.

Yes, indeed. The same thing is valid for what we consider "real" money.
Money is only a product of our collective imagination. Not necessarily because 90% of it is already virtual like Bitcoin (hence having "no independent existence from humans", not even physically), but because their value is only in our heads.

A piece of "something" made of 75% cotton and 25% linen is not worth $100.
It is $100 only in our imagination, even when we can physically touch that cheap piece of cloth or paper.

This is because money is not material anymore, money is trust.
Trust is lives in our heads and has "no independent existence from humans"
Agreed
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 24, 2017, 16:18
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....
I think it was probably a group of people that invented bitcoin and they were almost certainly much smarter than the people that are currently keeping most of the fiat currencies going.  Even I can see the underlying flaw that might well cause most of the big fiat currencies to fail.  This might be scaremongering but it's an interesting read https://dailyreckoning.com/fiat-currency/
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 25, 2017, 00:28
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....
I think it was probably a group of people that invented bitcoin and they were almost certainly much smarter than the people that are currently keeping most of the fiat currencies going.  Even I can see the underlying flaw that might well cause most of the big fiat currencies to fail.  This might be scaremongering but it's an interesting read https://dailyreckoning.com/fiat-currency/
How do you know the creators don't know the flaw?
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 25, 2017, 08:35
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....
I think it was probably a group of people that invented bitcoin and they were almost certainly much smarter than the people that are currently keeping most of the fiat currencies going.  Even I can see the underlying flaw that might well cause most of the big fiat currencies to fail.  This might be scaremongering but it's an interesting read https://dailyreckoning.com/fiat-currency/
How do you know the creators don't know the flaw?
There were flaws but they are constantly being fixed.  It isn't a bit of code that has to be perfect forever, it can be changed.  Here's an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SegWit
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: niktol on October 26, 2017, 07:23
The way I see it, bitcoin is just as fiat as government backed currencies. The only difference is decentralization. Right now it it still rather exotic, but the moment bitcoin (or any other similar product) becomes sufficiently trusted, stable and as popular as any local currency, the respective government isn't gonna just say, ah, the hel* with monetary policies, we give up. It's gonna be either criminalized or something similarly drastic is going to happen. So just make sure you sell it 1 hour before that happens.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: namussi on October 26, 2017, 08:05
Central banks make monetary policy in the US, UK, eurozone. Not governments.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 26, 2017, 08:21
The way I see it, bitcoin is just as fiat as government backed currencies. The only difference is decentralization. Right now it it still rather exotic, but the moment bitcoin (or any other similar product) becomes sufficiently trusted, stable and as popular as any local currency, the respective government isn't gonna just say, ah, the hel* with monetary policies, we give up. It's gonna be either criminalized or something similarly drastic is going to happen. So just make sure you sell it 1 hour before that happens.
China banned bitcoin exchanges and a few weeks later, its gone up another $1,000.  I think the only way to ban bitcoin is to turn off the internet, do you think governments can afford to do that?  Monetary policy has been used to delay inevitable problems and is making them worse.  Does anyone really think that governments continuously spending much more than they bring in, printing more and more currency and raising debt ceilings to levels that are astronomical is sustainable in the long term?
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: niktol on October 26, 2017, 08:29
The way I see it, bitcoin is just as fiat as government backed currencies. The only difference is decentralization. Right now it it still rather exotic, but the moment bitcoin (or any other similar product) becomes sufficiently trusted, stable and as popular as any local currency, the respective government isn't gonna just say, ah, the hel* with monetary policies, we give up. It's gonna be either criminalized or something similarly drastic is going to happen. So just make sure you sell it 1 hour before that happens.
China banned bitcoin exchanges and a few weeks later, its gone up another $1,000.  I think the only way to ban bitcoin is to turn off the internet, do you think governments can afford to do that?  Monetary policy has been used to delay inevitable problems and is making them worse.  Does anyone really think that governments continuously spending much more than they bring in, printing more and more currency and raising debt ceilings to levels that are astronomical is sustainable in the long term?

Doesn't matter what one thinks, if it's declared illegal, it's illegal. There's gonna be fines and sentences. And police forces to make sure you are where you are supposed to be. Try mess with IRS (I presume you are from the US), and face the consequences sooner or later, doesn't matter what you think about exorbitant income taxes.

You don't have to wait to do something what's considered illegal in your country if you take that Pablo Escobarish stance. There are many opportunities out there, a lot more profitable than stock photography.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: niktol on October 26, 2017, 08:31
Central banks make monetary policy in the US, UK, eurozone. Not governments.

Well, in my country it's a state-owned enterprise. I am pretty sure they don't act independently.

Anywhere else, I doubt if there is a [perceived] financial crisis, the government will act in total conflict with the central bank.  Everything will be negotiated according to the interest of parties involved.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 26, 2017, 08:31
Central banks make monetary policy in the US, UK, eurozone. Not governments.
Doesn't make much difference, they usually do whatever a government asks of them.  They are set inflationary targets by governments.  Governments decide how much debt they can have.  Who appoints the heads of central banks?
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 26, 2017, 08:42
The way I see it, bitcoin is just as fiat as government backed currencies. The only difference is decentralization. Right now it it still rather exotic, but the moment bitcoin (or any other similar product) becomes sufficiently trusted, stable and as popular as any local currency, the respective government isn't gonna just say, ah, the hel* with monetary policies, we give up. It's gonna be either criminalized or something similarly drastic is going to happen. So just make sure you sell it 1 hour before that happens.
China banned bitcoin exchanges and a few weeks later, its gone up another $1,000.  I think the only way to ban bitcoin is to turn off the internet, do you think governments can afford to do that?  Monetary policy has been used to delay inevitable problems and is making them worse.  Does anyone really think that governments continuously spending much more than they bring in, printing more and more currency and raising debt ceilings to levels that are astronomical is sustainable in the long term?

Doesn't matter what one thinks, if it's declared illegal, it's illegal. There's gonna be fines and sentences. And police forces to make sure you are where you are supposed to be. Try mess with IRS (I presume you are from the US), and face the consequences sooner or later, doesn't matter what you think about exorbitant income taxes.

You don't have to wait to do something what's considered illegal in your country if you take that Pablo Escobarish stance. There are many opportunities out there, a lot more profitable than stock photography.
I think it would be unenforceable without turning off the entire internet.  Do you think everyone using bitcoin is a tax dodger?  It's easier to track than cash-in-hand, the IRS are probably more keen to see bitcoin succeed, if it reduces people using cash-in-hand.  I'm from the UK and if I make any money from cryptocurrency, it will go on my tax form.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: niktol on October 26, 2017, 08:50

I think it would be unenforceable without turning off the entire internet.  Do you think everyone using bitcoin is a tax dodger?  It's easier to track than cash-in-hand, the IRS are probably more keen to see bitcoin succeed, if it reduces people using cash-in-hand.  I'm from the UK and if I make any money from cryptocurrency, it will go on my tax form.

I used taxes only as an example, not in relation to your situation. What I am saying is that the value of whatever_coin is not innately safe. It creates problems for issuers of government backed money and it can be criminalized or propagandized against or both at any time. It already happened in China by your own admission (I didn't check), and it happened in the country of my origin just recently. The value of bitcoin is up for you, but people in those countries aren't free to use it. I think it is to your benefit that bitcoin remains mostly under the radar.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 26, 2017, 09:03
Others on the China ban list are Facebook, Google, Twitter and YouTube.  Doesn't seem to of done any harm to them.  I don't think it will be easy to ban in a democratic country.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: niktol on October 26, 2017, 09:09
Others on the China ban list are Facebook, Google, Twitter and YouTube.  Doesn't seem to of done any harm to them.  I don't think it will be easy to ban in a democratic country.

I have no problem with anyone investing in bitcoin, but I think one has to realize risks and treat it as a commodity, even if virtual, not something that will provide value for life. Again, I am not an expert in finance, so it's just an opinion derived from observations.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Zero Talent on October 26, 2017, 09:34
It's easier to track than cash-in-hand, the IRS are probably more keen to see bitcoin succeed, if it reduces people using cash-in-hand.

They should first stop clinging on the penny, most probably one the few coins in the world that's more expensive to produce than its worth.
And what about that big debate about whose face should be on the dollar bill? How is that relevant, if physical money is not a priority?

Besides these, rest assured: the government loves the monopoly they enjoy in the money issuing business. It is in their interest to protect their privilege.
They will always go out of their way to ban their competition and enforce their monopoly by all means, including violence. I have no doubt that the IRS will hunt you down and lock you up for money laundering, as soon as you become a threat to their business.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: nicksimages on October 27, 2017, 06:39
Oh, these internet times are so sweet

Watching people without basic education in economy talking about macroeconomics and monetary policies. Because they read something on the internet written by another moron like them. You guys just make me laugh.

I guess in these sweet internet times, everyone became expert in everything.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: niktol on October 27, 2017, 06:57
Oh, these internet times are so sweet

Watching people without basic education in economy talking about macroeconomics and monetary policies. Because they read something on the internet written by another moron like them. You guys just make me laugh.

I guess in these sweet internet times, everyone became expert in everything.

Geezuz dude, that's some angry post, out of nowhere. Do you need a hug? People are just talking, noone is trying to lecture governments or anything.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 27, 2017, 07:12
Oh, these internet times are so sweet

Watching people without basic education in economy talking about macroeconomics and monetary policies. Because they read something on the internet written by another moron like them. You guys just make me laugh.

I guess in these sweet internet times, everyone became expert in everything.
Perhaps you would like to share your superior knowledge and help us all out?
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: sharpshot on October 27, 2017, 11:04
Oh, these internet times are so sweet

Watching people without basic education in economy talking about macroeconomics and monetary policies. Because they read something on the internet written by another moron like them. You guys just make me laugh.

I guess in these sweet internet times, everyone became expert in everything.
Does anyone really understand economics?  I'll give you one of my favourite quotes from an economist.
"The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable."  John Kenneth Galbraith.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Uncle Pete on October 30, 2017, 12:37
Oh, these internet times are so sweet

Watching people without basic education in economy talking about macroeconomics and monetary policies. Because they read something on the internet written by another moron like them. You guys just make me laugh.

I guess in these sweet internet times, everyone became expert in everything.
Does anyone really understand economics?  I'll give you one of my favourite quotes from an economist.
"The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable."  John Kenneth Galbraith.

Yes, it's like sports betting on the "trends" which are just a collection of after the fact data and have almost no effect on the future of a game. I always thought VooDoo and economics predictions had something in common?  ;)

Honestly some principles of economics do hold true, just that there are so many variables and unpredictable facets that a clear look into the future is uncertain.
Title: Re: Encouraging clients to use up all their subs per month to help contributors
Post by: Pauws99 on October 30, 2017, 13:54
Oh, these internet times are so sweet

Watching people without basic education in economy talking about macroeconomics and monetary policies. Because they read something on the internet written by another moron like them. You guys just make me laugh.

I guess in these sweet internet times, everyone became expert in everything.
Does anyone really understand economics?  I'll give you one of my favourite quotes from an economist.
"The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable."  John Kenneth Galbraith.

Yes, it's like sports betting on the "trends" which are just a collection of after the fact data and have almost no effect on the future of a game. I always thought VooDoo and economics predictions had something in common?  ;)

Honestly some principles of economics do hold true, just that there are so many variables and unpredictable facets that a clear look into the future is uncertain.
This is what makes Bitcoin so risky.....the fact that it has risen steeply in the past says nothing about what will happen in the future.