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« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2017, 15:46 »
0
We talk about "virtual" money vs "real" money, when, in fact, most of our "real" money is in fact virtual, today. Banks are allowed to credit 10 times more than the physical money in circulation. So ~90% of what we consider "real", is already nothing else than bits and bytes in a server.

Even more: all money is nothing else than a product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to facilitate trade between strangers. We often don't trust strangers as humans, but we trust their money. This is why crypto-currencies or, in other words, imaginary, virtual money can work as well, or as bad as "real" currencies. All are the same, in the end.

The only problem with the crypto-currencies is trust, the abstraction that makes "real" money work. Good (i.e. trustworthy) money has always chased away bad money, even when endorsed by local untrustworthy governments.

It might take a while before the market will trust these alternative currencies, even if free competition will be allowed.
However, this far from being the case. There are very clear signs that very powerful governments are not permiting a free currency market to flourish, in order to protect their money "printing" (or QE) monopoly.
I just read news about the US government accusing of money laundering individuals hosting crypto-currency servers, seeking their extradition and hundreds of millions of "real" money penalties.
In a lot of places around the world right now, there's more trust in bitcoin than the local currency.  Crooks use cryptocurrencies but they also use fiat currencies.  I found this interesting about some governments around the world that are going through the five stages of grief.

1. Deny it (its too small to have an impact, they say at this stage)
2. Ban it in anger (this thing is growing, we have to crush it)
3. Realize impossibility of a ban (because of their own corruption mostly, they use it themselves but dont want the common folk to use it)
4. Try to control it, coopt it, and mold it to their likes. They believe their own illusion for a while and think they have managed to do it but the reality is they have lost control completely. (This is the stage the Cuban government is at right now with El Paquete)
5. Capitulation and collapse of the monopoly. The old regime is fundamentally changed or violently toppled.
https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@cryptoeagle/why-china-or-governments-can-t-stop-crypto-how-chuck-norris-proves-this-fact-from-communist-history


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« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2017, 16:45 »
+2
Not sure if an article on a cryptocurrency site could be considered the most impartial or reliable of sources. Especially one with a picture of Chuck Norris at the top.

It's like an article in Fiat Currencies Weekly saying that crypto-currency is no good.

« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2017, 16:59 »
0
We talk about "virtual" money vs "real" money, when, in fact, most of our "real" money is in fact virtual, today. Banks are allowed to credit 10 times more than the physical money in circulation. So ~90% of what we consider "real", is already nothing else than bits and bytes in a server.

Even more: all money is nothing else than a product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to facilitate trade between strangers. We often don't trust strangers as humans, but we trust their money. This is why crypto-currencies or, in other words, imaginary, virtual money can work as well, or as bad as "real" currencies. All are the same, in the end.

The only problem with the crypto-currencies is trust, the abstraction that makes "real" money work. Good (i.e. trustworthy) money has always chased away bad money, even when endorsed by local untrustworthy governments.

It might take a while before the market will trust these alternative currencies, even if free competition will be allowed.
However, this far from being the case. There are very clear signs that very powerful governments are not permiting a free currency market to flourish, in order to protect their money "printing" (or QE) monopoly.
I just read news about the US government accusing of money laundering individuals hosting crypto-currency servers, seeking their extradition and hundreds of millions of "real" money penalties.
Good summary I think. If Crypto currencies do take over or become serious competitors to government currencies the concept of nations as we understand it will change.

« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2017, 17:14 »
0
Not sure if an article on a cryptocurrency site could be considered the most impartial or reliable of sources. Especially one with a picture of Chuck Norris at the top.

It's like an article in Fiat Currencies Weekly saying that crypto-currency is no good.
True but I think its interesting to read different points of view and draw your own conclusions.  Don't those five stages of grief ring any bells with the way some countries around the world are reacting to bitcoin at the moment?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-cenbank-bitcoin/russia-turns-cold-on-crypto-currencies-idUSKBN1CF0RF
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/18/16326078/chinese-regulators-ban-cryptocurrency-platforms-bitcoin
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/30/venezuela-is-one-of-the-worlds-most-dangerous-places-to-mine-bitcoin.html
http://www.techzim.co.zw/2017/09/bitcoin-fetches-85pct-premium-in-zimbabwe/

« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2017, 17:17 »
0
We talk about "virtual" money vs "real" money, when, in fact, most of our "real" money is in fact virtual, today. Banks are allowed to credit 10 times more than the physical money in circulation. So ~90% of what we consider "real", is already nothing else than bits and bytes in a server.

Even more: all money is nothing else than a product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to facilitate trade between strangers. We often don't trust strangers as humans, but we trust their money. This is why crypto-currencies or, in other words, imaginary, virtual money can work as well, or as bad as "real" currencies. All are the same, in the end.

The only problem with the crypto-currencies is trust, the abstraction that makes "real" money work. Good (i.e. trustworthy) money has always chased away bad money, even when endorsed by local untrustworthy governments.

It might take a while before the market will trust these alternative currencies, even if free competition will be allowed.
However, this far from being the case. There are very clear signs that very powerful governments are not permiting a free currency market to flourish, in order to protect their money "printing" (or QE) monopoly.
I just read news about the US government accusing of money laundering individuals hosting crypto-currency servers, seeking their extradition and hundreds of millions of "real" money penalties.
In a lot of places around the world right now, there's more trust in bitcoin than the local currency.  Crooks use cryptocurrencies but they also use fiat currencies.  I found this interesting about some governments around the world that are going through the five stages of grief.

1. Deny it (its too small to have an impact, they say at this stage)
2. Ban it in anger (this thing is growing, we have to crush it)
3. Realize impossibility of a ban (because of their own corruption mostly, they use it themselves but dont want the common folk to use it)
4. Try to control it, coopt it, and mold it to their likes. They believe their own illusion for a while and think they have managed to do it but the reality is they have lost control completely. (This is the stage the Cuban government is at right now with El Paquete)
5. Capitulation and collapse of the monopoly. The old regime is fundamentally changed or violently toppled.
https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@cryptoeagle/why-china-or-governments-can-t-stop-crypto-how-chuck-norris-proves-this-fact-from-communist-history
Kind of lost it for me when he described China as a "communist" country ;-).

« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2017, 02:15 »
0
We talk about "virtual" money vs "real" money, when, in fact, most of our "real" money is in fact virtual, today. Banks are allowed to credit 10 times more than the physical money in circulation. So ~90% of what we consider "real", is already nothing else than bits and bytes in a server.

Even more: all money is nothing else than a product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to facilitate trade between strangers. We often don't trust strangers as humans, but we trust their money. This is why crypto-currencies or, in other words, imaginary, virtual money can work as well, or as bad as "real" currencies. All are the same, in the end.

The only problem with the crypto-currencies is trust, the abstraction that makes "real" money work. Good (i.e. trustworthy) money has always chased away bad money, even when endorsed by local untrustworthy governments.

It might take a while before the market will trust these alternative currencies, even if free competition will be allowed.
However, this far from being the case. There are very clear signs that very powerful governments are not permiting a free currency market to flourish, in order to protect their money "printing" (or QE) monopoly.
I just read news about the US government accusing of money laundering individuals hosting crypto-currency servers, seeking their extradition and hundreds of millions of "real" money penalties.
Good summary I think. If Crypto currencies do take over or become serious competitors to government currencies the concept of nations as we understand it will change.
Not necessarily.
The concept of nations is as you put it: a concept, another product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to convince total strangers to cooperate, in order to achieve common goals. This is why the concept of nations can very well function independently from the concept of money. Strangers can be influenced to cooperate, for a common goal, independently from the tools they use.

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 02:19 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2017, 03:05 »
0
We talk about "virtual" money vs "real" money, when, in fact, most of our "real" money is in fact virtual, today. Banks are allowed to credit 10 times more than the physical money in circulation. So ~90% of what we consider "real", is already nothing else than bits and bytes in a server.

Even more: all money is nothing else than a product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to facilitate trade between strangers. We often don't trust strangers as humans, but we trust their money. This is why crypto-currencies or, in other words, imaginary, virtual money can work as well, or as bad as "real" currencies. All are the same, in the end.

The only problem with the crypto-currencies is trust, the abstraction that makes "real" money work. Good (i.e. trustworthy) money has always chased away bad money, even when endorsed by local untrustworthy governments.

It might take a while before the market will trust these alternative currencies, even if free competition will be allowed.
However, this far from being the case. There are very clear signs that very powerful governments are not permiting a free currency market to flourish, in order to protect their money "printing" (or QE) monopoly.
I just read news about the US government accusing of money laundering individuals hosting crypto-currency servers, seeking their extradition and hundreds of millions of "real" money penalties.
Good summary I think. If Crypto currencies do take over or become serious competitors to government currencies the concept of nations as we understand it will change.
Not necessarily.
The concept of nations is as you put it: a concept, another product of our collective imagination, a fiction meant to convince total strangers to cooperate, in order to achieve common goals. This is why the concept of nations can very well function independently from the concept of money. Strangers can be influenced to cooperate, for a common goal, independently from the tools they use.

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.
You have a fair point.....though ultimately they are still under some government control. If a currency falls outside any imposed controls I just can't envisage what it will look like...but very different I think.

« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2017, 09:05 »
0
Bitcoins are risky and could have a drop much more than money from a government which is backed by gold or silver. Contrary to what some people claim, the governments don't just print money as they need it.

http://www.finra.org/investors/alerts/bitcoin-more-bit-risky

"A growing number of physical establishments and exchanges allow customers to buy and sell bitcoins using cash, credit cards, money orders and other methods." If bitcoin is the currency why do they need to buy them with other methods?
Sorry but there isn't much gold or silver to back up the dollar.  I think there was only about 5% when Nixon scrapped it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock
How do you buy any currency?  I've yet to find the one that grows on trees :)


You'll like this

"Bitcoin smashed through the $5,000 barrier for the first time ever on Thursday, jumping as much as 7 percent to chalk up its biggest daily rise in over two weeks.

Bitcoin, the original and still the biggest cryptocurrency, has been on a tear recently, rallying nearly 75 percent in barely a month.

It has chalked up a more than fivefold increase in price since the start of the year."

Remember the stock market, big gains and high excitement as people saw fortunes. The Dow is now at a record high. Could that be the same as the Bitcoin, are they related as investments? Higher bids and selling prices, a perception that the stock/bitcoin was increasing in value. What happens next? Any significant drop will trigger a selling spree based on fear, which leads to more fear and more selling and a crash.

Here's what backs money of the world currently, the dollar, euro, yen, and every other major currency, is backed directly by the stability of the society that issues it. Not gold or silver and the US was the last country to back their money with metals.

Fort Knox holds around $300 billion dollars in precious metals. That's just a sign for stability, since the US money isn't backed by that gold. The US mint makes about $600 million dollars a year, producing coins. That means the cost of the production is less than the value and people buy the coins for the face value.

Who produces the Bitcoin and do they make a profit from the trading and futures? Who regulates and monitors the issuance, mining and trading?

« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2017, 10:03 »
0
Yes, now I just wish I had bought some more.  The real money now might be in altcoins that nobody has heard of.  I'm mining one called BiblePay that's worth almost nothing now but is very easy to get.  If that rockets, I'll be buying a Hasselblad :)

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« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2017, 23:20 »
+1
If that rockets, I'll be buying a Hasselblad :)

Correction. If they rocket as much as Bitcoin, you'll be buying Hasselblad... rather than buying a Hasselblad.

« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2017, 00:23 »
+1
I'm not counting my chickens.  All I have so far is a small loss from the cost of electricity.  Nice to dream of making enough to buy Getty and put Sean in charge though :)

« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2017, 02:14 »
0

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.

Multiple means simply "more than two".

Are talking about a handful of companies, or dozens?

« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2017, 02:22 »
0

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.

Multiple means simply "more than two".

Are talking about a handful of companies, or dozens?
To be pedantic...more than one ;-).

« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2017, 04:37 »
0

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.

Multiple means simply "more than two".

Are talking about a handful of companies, or dozens?
To be pedantic...more than one ;-).

Oops.

Nevertheless, the definitions are ambiguous. Dictionaries say multiple means "two or more" but also can mean "several", and several, of course, means "more than two".

« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2017, 04:59 »
0

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.

Multiple means simply "more than two".

Are talking about a handful of companies, or dozens?
To be pedantic...more than one ;-).

Oops.

Nevertheless, the definitions are ambiguous. Dictionaries say multiple means "two or more" but also can mean "several", and several, of course, means "more than two".
several is a very vague term so beloved of politicians and marketing people ;-).

« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2017, 07:13 »
0

There are already multiple nations allowing foreign currencies to operate, legally, under their jurisdiction, as well as nations having intentionally pegged their local bad currency to a better one, like the euro or the dollar, or even nations having adopted one of those, without losing their nation status.

Multiple means simply "more than two".

Are talking about a handful of companies, or dozens?
To be pedantic...more than one ;-).

"Multiple" nations don't have their own currency. Map attached.


"Multiple" nations tolerate trade in dollars, even North Korea, believe it or not.

"Multiple" nations pegged their currency to a foreign one, Bulgaria, Denmark, Cuba, Bosnia etc

Not sure why you say "companies".

« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 07:25 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2017, 07:24 »
0
IMHO it is a bit of a misnomer to call bitcoin a currency. It is really more of a sort of digital commodity and store of value that can be used a currency under some circumstances (in the same way that if I want to sell something and you offer me a good price in gold I would take it, especially if I can easily and quickly change that gold to whatever local currency I want to). 

Other cryptos are closer to true currencies in their characteristics, but no one knows which ones will take off.

I believe BTC is here for the long run and will make overall gains with lots of bumps along the way for a few years until speculators are outnumbered by people using it as a store of value. That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin.


« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2017, 10:21 »
0
I'm not counting my chickens.  All I have so far is a small loss from the cost of electricity.  Nice to dream of making enough to buy Getty and put Sean in charge though :)

There's some positive thinking. I like that.

« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2017, 16:36 »
+1
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....

« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2017, 14:48 »
0
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....

Plus the usual fraud people who will sell something or Bitcoin that they don't own or doesn't exist. Sorry anything named Biblepay scares me from any consideration. People who use religion as a way of playing like they are legit are thick as thieves.

Did someone answer? Who or what backs Bitcoin and the confidence in it's value? Unlike a government, it's somewhat mysterious and anonymous. The guy who created bitcoin hasn't been heard from since 2011? I'm not sold on it yet, but I'll give it a chance, so I'm not saying it's wrong either.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9

Looked at Biblepay, might be something good, 10% tithe goes to charity and 75% efficiency for that distribution. Better than some anonymous crypto currency.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 12:08 by YadaYadaYada »

« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2017, 10:13 »
0
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....

Plus the usual fraud people who will sell something or Bitcoin that they don't own or doesn't exist. Sorry anything named Biblepay scares me from any consideration. People who use religion as a way of playing like they are legit are thick as thieves.

Did someone answer? Who or what backs Bitcoin and the confidence in it's value? Unlike a government, it's somewhat mysterious and anonymous. The guy who created bitcoin hasn't been heard from since 2011? I'm not sold on it yet, but I'll give it a chance, so I'm not saying it's wrong either.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9
Funny thing with currencies and maybe even more so with bitcoins is do they really exist at all? They certainly have no independent existence from humans ;-. As I understand it the only thing that gives Bitcoin its value is enough people believe it has value.

« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2017, 10:29 »
0
Funny thing with currencies and maybe even more so with bitcoins is do they really exist at all? They certainly have no independent existence from humans ;-. As I understand it the only thing that gives Bitcoin its value is enough people believe it has value.

That's the case with most things that we value, but cannot eat, or sleep in.

« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2017, 11:00 »
0
Funny thing with currencies and maybe even more so with bitcoins is do they really exist at all? They certainly have no independent existence from humans ;-. As I understand it the only thing that gives Bitcoin its value is enough people believe it has value.

That's the case with most things that we value, but cannot eat, or sleep in.
Yes to my second sentence. So the decision whether to invest is really around whether you believe this belief will continue...it might it might not that's the risk.

« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2017, 11:15 »
0
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....

Plus the usual fraud people who will sell something or Bitcoin that they don't own or doesn't exist. Sorry anything named Biblepay scares me from any consideration. People who use religion as a way of playing like they are legit are thick as thieves.

Did someone answer? Who or what backs Bitcoin and the confidence in it's value? Unlike a government, it's somewhat mysterious and anonymous. The guy who created bitcoin hasn't been heard from since 2011? I'm not sold on it yet, but I'll give it a chance, so I'm not saying it's wrong either.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9
Funny thing with currencies and maybe even more so with bitcoins is do they really exist at all? They certainly have no independent existence from humans ;-. As I understand it the only thing that gives Bitcoin its value is enough people believe it has value.

Yes, indeed. The same thing is valid for what we consider "real" money.
Money is only a product of our collective imagination. Not necessarily because 90% of it is already virtual like Bitcoin (hence having "no independent existence from humans", not even physically), but because their value is only in our heads.

A piece of "something" made of 75% cotton and 25% linen is not worth $100.
It is $100 only in our imagination, even when we can physically touch that cheap piece of cloth or paper.

This is because money is not material anymore, money is trust.
Trust lives in our heads and has "no independent existence from humans"

« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 18:33 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2017, 16:00 »
0
"That is unless an underlying and unforeseeable flaw in the tech is found, in which case bye bye bitcoin." You can bet there's some very clever people looking for just that.....

Plus the usual fraud people who will sell something or Bitcoin that they don't own or doesn't exist. Sorry anything named Biblepay scares me from any consideration. People who use religion as a way of playing like they are legit are thick as thieves.

Did someone answer? Who or what backs Bitcoin and the confidence in it's value? Unlike a government, it's somewhat mysterious and anonymous. The guy who created bitcoin hasn't been heard from since 2011? I'm not sold on it yet, but I'll give it a chance, so I'm not saying it's wrong either.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/19/12-questions-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask-about-bitcoin/?utm_term=.2a4a06e40df9
Funny thing with currencies and maybe even more so with bitcoins is do they really exist at all? They certainly have no independent existence from humans ;-. As I understand it the only thing that gives Bitcoin its value is enough people believe it has value.

Yes, indeed. The same thing is valid for what we consider "real" money.
Money is only a product of our collective imagination. Not necessarily because 90% of it is already virtual like Bitcoin (hence having "no independent existence from humans", not even physically), but because their value is only in our heads.

A piece of "something" made of 75% cotton and 25% linen is not worth $100.
It is $100 only in our imagination, even when we can physically touch that cheap piece of cloth or paper.

This is because money is not material anymore, money is trust.
Trust is lives in our heads and has "no independent existence from humans"
Agreed


 

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