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Author Topic: Disappearing posts  (Read 6308 times)

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« on: May 14, 2014, 02:13 »
+25
There are 33,400 members of this site. Under the "down arrow" rule, 0.03% of the membership can gag the other 99.97% by joining together to put 10 down votes on any post they like. Do it quick enough and it will vanish before it gets a chance to pick up countervailing "hearts".
Does that make sense? More to the point, how does it fit with the idea of the site allowing a free exchange of views?
The greatest contributions to a discussion often do not come from repetitions of widely held views but from the lone voice presenting a view that has been overlooked, that may or may not be popular.
Isn't allowing 10 votes to silence an opinion the same as saying the church war right and Galileo was wrong, because he was one voice and more than 10 bishops disagreed with him? Or that the anti-Semitic "100 Authors against Einstein" proved that Einstein was wrong and the 100 right, just because they out-numbered him?  Einstein's retort was that if he were wrong, then it would only need one person to prove it.
It's a wonder that none of the stock sites have taken advantage of this to conceal criticism of their action.
Shouldn't the "disappeared ones" be brought back from oblivion? If you dislike someone I believe there is still the "ignore" option available.


« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 02:22 »
+5
There are 33,400 members of this site. Under the "down arrow" rule, 0.03% of the membership can gag the other 99.97% by joining together to put 10 down votes on any post they like. Do it quick enough and it will vanish before it gets a chance to pick up countervailing "hearts".
Does that make sense? More to the point, how does it fit with the idea of the site allowing a free exchange of views?
The greatest contributions to a discussion often do not come from repetitions of widely held views but from the lone voice presenting a view that has been overlooked, that may or may not be popular.
Isn't allowing 10 votes to silence an opinion the same as saying the church war right and Galileo was wrong, because he was one voice and more than 10 bishops disagreed with him? Or that the anti-Semitic "100 Authors against Einstein" proved that Einstein was wrong and the 100 right, just because they out-numbered him?  Einstein's retort was that if he were wrong, then it would only need one person to prove it.
It's a wonder that none of the stock sites have taken advantage of this to conceal criticism of their action.
Shouldn't the "disappeared ones" be brought back from oblivion? If you dislike someone I believe there is still the "ignore" option available.

Well stated BT

« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2014, 02:37 »
+11
Agreed. But, the simplest thing to do first perhaps may be to let posts remain visible even if they gather a net -10 votes. This will ensure that posts dont get missed eventhough a higher number of people may disagree with the poster.

« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2014, 02:55 »
+3
Agreed. But, the simplest thing to do first perhaps may be to let posts remain visible even if they gather a net -10 votes. This will ensure that posts dont get missed eventhough a higher number of people may disagree with the poster.

Yes, that would address it.

stocked

« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2014, 02:59 »
+3
just let stay the post visible easiest solution!

Ron

« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2014, 03:26 »
+3
But you can open the comment and add a heart and if it will be from 10 to 9, the comment appears again. Plus all comments can be opened even if hidden. By the way, not disagreeing with the OP.

« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2014, 03:39 »
+3
As I wrote on the Fotolia/DPC thread before I saw this new thread:

Why not just remove this vote down option? Is that anything grown-up people should be doing, giving minuses to other people??? Even if it maybe only means "disagree" in most cases, you NEVER know how the person in question will take it. And because it is even more anonymous than posting things using anonymous usernames here, some people may actually use this feature to vote down people they do not like.

Give hearts when you like a post, and if you disagree, do nothing or make a reply explaining why, or maybe just a simple "disagree", written with letters. A minus is something very negative... Really bad and hateful posts should be reported and removed, but that is something different.

« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2014, 03:53 »
+3
The plus and minus thing serves no useful function.

There is far too much rude and aggressive and, I suspect, sometimes drunken posting here. That's the biggest issue and it is why many people have stopped writing.

The second biggest issue is the constant negativity and conspiracy minded speculation. The upshot is a self selected group of people who increasingly mostly express the same depressed group opinions about almost any subject.

« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2014, 04:54 »
+7
I think the up and down arrows are are useful device to get an indication of how the wider population of this group feels without the need to enter the bear pit and actually post.

Having said that, I see no reason why posts that people strongly disagree with are hidden. That seems unduly harsh.

The value of this group has been proved this week by the changes for the better it has winkled out of Fotolia, let's hope this kind of collective effort can continue for all our benefit even if we don't agree with every decision.

Lisa, if you're reading this, come back, we need your voice and experience.

« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2014, 05:22 »
+2
 I'd agree that automatically hiding posts because they get voted down seems unnecessary... but perhaps some people prefer it that way, I don't know.

However, you can change that setting in your profile - it allows the options of "Hide", "Grey Out" and "Nothing", as I recall - so perhaps if Leaf would just change the default to "Nothing" rather than "Hide", then anyone who really feels they would prefer not to see negatived posts could choose for themselves.

« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2014, 05:57 »
+12
making negative posts stay on the page wouldn't be a problem - perhaps I'll change that.

I still like the voting though.  When there are 100 people saying one thing and one person saying another.. perhaps there are lots of people who don't feel like speaking up but agree with the one person.  They can then simply press the 'agree' button and the reading audience can see that a lot of people actually do share the same opinion, even if there is only one post taking that position.

« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2014, 06:01 »
+2
Posts get hidden, not deleted. A person can choose to read any post, even if they have put someone on ignore. There really isnt any censorship going on. In fact most of the time if i see a post hidden with so many votes, i have to read it to see what the big deal is. Changing the icons to agree or disagree would be ok tho.


All i have to do is say the word symbiostock and the gang will vote me down in a new york minute. The arrow and heart are supposed to mean agree and disagree, but we all know its used for bullying. There will always be people who turn what starts out as one thing into something negative and ugly. That doesnt mean the idea should be scrapped. People can recognize when that is happening, the best thing to do is ignore the bullies.


As far as Lisa leaving because of negative votes, there have been posts by Ember Mike and JoAnn and others that sum up my feelings exactly. EVERYONE needs money to pay bills, not just Lisa. I have no stake in the fotolia/dpc thing...i left there a long time ago. But i was hoping that shooting stock would help supplement my income in a few years when "retirement" rolls around. Agencies getting away with schemes like this hurts everyone, not just Lisa's income.


I hope lisa comes back, she is a valuable member of the community. I think this is the first time in almost 10 years i have disagreed with her. I still love you, tho, Lisa. :-)

« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 06:09 »
+1
making negative posts stay on the page wouldn't be a problem - perhaps I'll change that.

I still like the voting though.  When there are 100 people saying one thing and one person saying another.. perhaps there are lots of people who don't feel like speaking up but agree with the one person.  They can then simply press the 'agree' button and the reading audience can see that a lot of people actually do share the same opinion, even if there is only one post taking that position.
The heart-agree button is a good thing...but I see no good reason to keep the disagree-minus button.

« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 06:12 »
+1
I used the word "disappear" advisedly. And I gather they are actually invisible if you are not logged in. It does cause problems in following the flow of a discussion someone responds to something that isn't immediately apparent.
I'm not too bothered about ups and downs, though there is bullying. I think it's a bit sad that some people can post anything and get negative votes (and others get positive ones just as easily) but it's not important.
I wasn't aware that the greying-out could be switched on and off by users and if I didn't know I doubt if many others do.
The words "Agree" and "Disagree" might be more friendly than down arrows and hearts, if the system is to be retained

« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 06:32 »
+4
I think it might make sense to replace it with +- or agree/disagree word options. But I think it is valuable information to see how many people disagree with a statement. I would also like to see absolute numbers of agree/disagree. at the moment the hearts and arrows cancel each other out, but the real numbers would be interesting to see.

For me the up down voting is not a personal issue. I hope Lisa comes to that conclusion as well and returns. Being on forums with a controversial subject can be emotionally very difficult. The best is just to take a break, get away from the computer and just do something else to get your balance back.

She is one of the most respected voices in the industry and a pretty tough lady. Please come back :)

I have often just ignored a certain thread or a subject completely. When I believe I have said what i needed to say or presented the information that I feel was necessary to let the community see, then it is often good to step back and just let people evaluate and think about things.

Beppe Grillo

« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 08:47 »
+1
As I have already written in other threads I don't like the arrow/heart system.
We are not at school where we need grades
The forum is not a playground where we have to show how much we are popular
Why don't make "the best post of the year" contest and give a lollypop to the winner?!!   8)

I think that a simple system with stars is better.
from 0 to 5 stars (Camera Raw users know that[I mean stars])
- you are indifferent: 0 star
- you like a lot: 5 stars
- And everything in the middle.
- you don't like the usual behavior is to give 1 star (monostar)
The number of received stars for a post is the average of the given stars by all the users having given stars.

In this way we will avoid to offend the most sensitive/susceptible people or to put on a pedestal the greatest "heart receivers" (yes, when you receive 30 hearts for one of you posts you feel importants, confess it!), and everybody will be happy.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 08:50 by Beppe Grillo »

Beppe Grillo

« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 08:49 »
+1
.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 08:51 by Beppe Grillo »

Ron

« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2014, 09:03 »
+2
Why is so hard to show both up and down votes? I see that on plenty of forums.


« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2014, 09:31 »
+3
Why is so hard to show both up and down votes? I see that on plenty of forums.

Personally, I don't care what up or down votes I get.  It doesn't hurt my feelings if people disagree with something.

Ron

« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2014, 09:36 »
+10
With all due respect. If you say 'poop' you'll get 10 hearts, so you dont get a lot of down votes to hurt your feelings. But if all you'd get was down votes, it will definitely have an effect. How many people havent left here because of the vote bullying? Voting here is not only used to agree or disagree, but also to cast a popularity vote.

Beppe Grillo

« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2014, 09:38 »
+3
Why is so hard to show both up and down votes? I see that on plenty of forums.

Personally, I don't care what up or down votes I get.  It doesn't hurt my feelings if people disagree with something.

Yes, but not everybody is you

In a democratic world the best way is the one fitting better for the most.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 09:40 by Beppe Grillo »

« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2014, 09:43 »
+5
With all due respect. If you say 'poop' you'll get 10 hearts,

Don't tempt me.

Ron

« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2014, 09:44 »
+2
With all due respect. If you say 'poop' you'll get 10 hearts,

Don't tempt me.
LOL. Could be a nice test  ;)

« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2014, 09:56 »
+1
Why is so hard to show both up and down votes? I see that on plenty of forums.
I've no idea but if Tyler thinks it might cause problems I would accept his judgement. He's the one juggling the code.

« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2014, 10:02 »
+1
Why is so hard to show both up and down votes? I see that on plenty of forums.

Personally, I don't care what up or down votes I get.  It doesn't hurt my feelings if people disagree with something.

Same here. Anyone that gets upset because 'someone on the internet disagrees with them' needs to get a life.

« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2014, 10:10 »
+7
What we really need is a greater contribution from the silent majority.

Ron

« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2014, 10:12 »
0
Why is so hard to show both up and down votes? I see that on plenty of forums.

Personally, I don't care what up or down votes I get.  It doesn't hurt my feelings if people disagree with something.

Same here. Anyone that gets upset because 'someone on the internet disagrees with them' needs to get a life.
This is not about getting one or two down votes.

Ron

« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2014, 10:13 »
0
Why is so hard to show both up and down votes? I see that on plenty of forums.
I've no idea but if Tyler thinks it might cause problems I would accept his judgement. He's the one juggling the code.
I am not questioning his judgement, just asking why its so hard. Curiosity you know. Thats all.

Beppe Grillo

« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2014, 10:20 »
0
What we really need is a greater contribution from the silent majority.

Qui tacet consentire videtur

« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2014, 10:45 »
+3
What we really need is a greater contribution from the silent majority.

Qui tacet consentire videtur

I am silently disagreeing with you.

My Aunt Florence would always say; if you have nothing to say then you'd better not say it. Odd woman - drank scotch by the bottle and rode a bicycle until she was in her eighties even though she had an artificial left foot.

« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2014, 10:51 »
+1
Why is so hard to show both up and down votes? I see that on plenty of forums.

Personally, I don't care what up or down votes I get.  It doesn't hurt my feelings if people disagree with something.

Same here. Anyone that gets upset because 'someone on the internet disagrees with them' needs to get a life.

Yes. There might be a bit of a misunderstanding there. Let's stick to the question of posts that actually vanish rather than worrying about people being thin-skinned.

« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2014, 11:09 »
+2
Why is so hard to show both up and down votes? I see that on plenty of forums.

Personally, I don't care what up or down votes I get.  It doesn't hurt my feelings if people disagree with something.

I agree, Lisa has always spoken her mind and that is what I have always respected about her... even when she does not agree with me which is often.

There are two or three characters who vote down almost every post I make here. I know who they are and it does not bother me in the least.

Ron

« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2014, 11:13 »
0
Thats probably because they disagree with basically everything you say. I cant fault them on that.

« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2014, 11:22 »
+4
There are two or three characters who vote down almost every post I make here. I know who they are and it does not bother me in the least.

There are one or two posters who seem to want to make everything personal - as if an alternative perspective somehow creates aggression within them. Unfortunately this type of posting is difficult to ignore and has driven quite a few people away in recent months.

Ron

« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2014, 11:39 »
+6
Ok, I wasnt aware of this, and I just tested it. I logged out and check the FT thread where Mat announced the new royalties on Fotolia.

As it turns out, as explained by Baldrick, the comment is hidden and cant be read. That is a very bad thing indeed. And that needs to be fixed as it completely defeats the purpose of an open debate. Anyone can now hide a comment if they group together. There is a mob running against FT and DPC, but ALL COMMENTS need to be visible. Moderation and censorship only on less popular stand points is a very bad thing on a forum so important for contributors. This place is basically the only place where we can speak up and speak openly. Thats the power of this forum, and it should stay like that.



Beppe Grillo

« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2014, 11:53 »
+1
What we really need is a greater contribution from the silent majority.

Qui tacet consentire videtur

I am silently disagreeing with you.

[] if you have nothing to say then you'd better not say it. []

It is what in some circumstances Qui tacet consentire videtur means ;)
Sure you aunt was an interesting woman!

(For this I give you a +1 :D )

« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2014, 11:54 »
0
Ok, I wasnt aware of this, and I just tested it. I logged out and check the FT thread where Mat announced the new royalties on Fotolia.

As it turns out, as explained by Baldrick, the comment is hidden and cant be read. That is a very bad thing indeed. And that needs to be fixed as it completely defeats the purpose of an open debate. Anyone can now hide a comment if they group together. There is a mob running against FT and DPC, but ALL COMMENTS need to be visible. Moderation and censorship only on less popular stand points is a very bad thing on a forum so important for contributors. This place is basically the only place where we can speak up and speak openly. Thats the power of this forum, and it should stay like that.

Ron - I agree that all posts must be visible irrespective of their net vote count. But, as things stand now, though Mat's post is hidden, there is an option next to it "Show hidden post" and if I click on it, I can see it. I tried to check in my profile for any settings, but could not locate any that would directly correlate to hidden posts. I logged out of MSG and tried again. It still works. Perhaps, Leaf can tell what settings provide the option to "show hidden posts".

Ron

« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2014, 11:59 »
+1
Ok, I wasnt aware of this, and I just tested it. I logged out and check the FT thread where Mat announced the new royalties on Fotolia.

As it turns out, as explained by Baldrick, the comment is hidden and cant be read. That is a very bad thing indeed. And that needs to be fixed as it completely defeats the purpose of an open debate. Anyone can now hide a comment if they group together. There is a mob running against FT and DPC, but ALL COMMENTS need to be visible. Moderation and censorship only on less popular stand points is a very bad thing on a forum so important for contributors. This place is basically the only place where we can speak up and speak openly. Thats the power of this forum, and it should stay like that.

Ron - I agree that all posts must be visible irrespective of their net vote count. But, as things stand now, though Mat's post is hidden, there is an option next to it "Show hidden post" and if I click on it, I can see it. I tried to check in my profile for any settings, but could not locate any that would directly correlate to hidden posts. I logged out of MSG and tried again. It still works. Perhaps, Leaf can tell what settings provide the option to "show hidden posts".
Could I ask you log out, refresh the page and post a screenshot of what you see please, because when I log out there is no option to show the comment.

« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2014, 12:07 »
+2
This place is basically the only place where we can speak up and speak openly. Thats the power of this forum, and it should stay like that.

So why do you so often basically tell people to shut up ?

« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2014, 12:08 »
+2
Ok, I wasnt aware of this, and I just tested it. I logged out and check the FT thread where Mat announced the new royalties on Fotolia.

As it turns out, as explained by Baldrick, the comment is hidden and cant be read. That is a very bad thing indeed. And that needs to be fixed as it completely defeats the purpose of an open debate. Anyone can now hide a comment if they group together. There is a mob running against FT and DPC, but ALL COMMENTS need to be visible. Moderation and censorship only on less popular stand points is a very bad thing on a forum so important for contributors. This place is basically the only place where we can speak up and speak openly. Thats the power of this forum, and it should stay like that.

Ron - I agree that all posts must be visible irrespective of their net vote count. But, as things stand now, though Mat's post is hidden, there is an option next to it "Show hidden post" and if I click on it, I can see it. I tried to check in my profile for any settings, but could not locate any that would directly correlate to hidden posts. I logged out of MSG and tried again. It still works. Perhaps, Leaf can tell what settings provide the option to "show hidden posts".
Could I ask you log out, refresh the page and post a screenshot of what you see please, because when I log out there is no option to show the comment.

Oh ! I read a bit too much. I realised that you had logged out but NOT logged in again. Sooo sorry. If I logout and open the thread (like a visitor to MSG who is not logged on), Mat's post is hidden and there is NO option. You are correct !  ;D

« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2014, 16:18 »
+8
Why is so hard to show both up and down votes? I see that on plenty of forums.



On plenty of forums using SMF? I doubt it because you'd have to code the extension yourself.  It would probably take a day and I'd probably only break a couple things in the process but I simply haven't spent the time to fight my way through it.

I have made it so posts don't hide themselves now though.

« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2014, 16:32 »
+2
I have made it so posts don't hide themselves now though.

This is a very useful change. I didn't know that when not logged in you couldn't see things that had been hidden, and now that's been fixed. Thanks

« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2014, 17:35 »
+2
Why is so hard to show both up and down votes? I see that on plenty of forums.



On plenty of forums using SMF? I doubt it because you'd have to code the extension yourself.  It would probably take a day and I'd probably only break a couple things in the process but I simply haven't spent the time to fight my way through it.

I have made it so posts don't hide themselves now though.


Thank you.


 

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