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Author Topic: What's holding you back from joining Symbiostock?  (Read 76858 times)

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« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2013, 14:09 »
0
The earlier you jump in, the better it is for you.. getting a good placement in organic google search takes time and by the time we are having regular sales you are going to be far behind..

Also, personally speaking, I am not the type to report my sales on public forums because I just don't feel right if I accidentally post earnings data.. the only time I do it is when I feel it is necessary to convey my opinion..

I'm intrigued by Symbiostock, but I have yet to hear of anyone seeing many sales from it.

Yes, there's the occasional "I got my first sale!" but it's going to take more than the occasional sale, or even the daily sale, to motivate me to invest the time in this.

Still, I applaud Leo for his efforts and for everyone else who has jumped in to test the waters for the rest of us.  I really want to see you succeed, and I'll gladly join you if and when your efforts prove fruitful.


travelwitness

« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2013, 14:11 »
+3
And here's a real fear I have... what if some of the established agencies decide they'd rather not carry the work of people who have set themselves up as competitors to them?

If gets to that then you know the project has legs because the fear won't be from you it will be from them.

« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2013, 14:12 »
+1
Okay, all the SY supporters are insisting how it's not a big deal to set it up.

But my big unanswered question is still this: who is making money at it?

It's great that SEO is working well for some of the sites, but if potential customers see it, does it compel them to buy?  I've always been skeptical of individual sites, just because as a customer, I would see it and think, "Okay, this site has one image I like, but then I'd have to go open another account at a different site to get that other image I need.  Why not just open one account at SS, FT, DT, etc. and get it altogether?"

So far, I think there's little evidence of SY sites getting over this hump.  But I'd like to be proven wrong, to be convinced there's real opportunity here, so please chime in with your reports of great sales, and maybe you'll convince me to join.

I've averaged a little above $400 a month this year. My store (Ktools) is coming up on 3 years old and growth has been slow and steady. It's not quite where I want it to be, but it is getting closer.

farbled

« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2013, 14:18 »
+1
For those looking for reasons to get into this:

besides selling direct, with its own pros and cons you can:

store your entire portfolio online great in case of catastrophic loss of data at home,
you get to choose what goes up instead of arbitrary reviews (also with pros and cons),
you will never have to worry about an image getting "orphaned" online because any diligent search will find it on your own website thanks to Leo's wonderful built in SEO.

Just a few, I'm sure there's more.

Ron

« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2013, 14:20 »
+1
For those looking for reasons to get into this:

besides selling direct, with its own pros and cons you can:

store your entire portfolio online great in case of catastrophic loss of data at home,
you get to choose what goes up instead of arbitrary reviews (also with pros and cons),
you will never have to worry about an image getting "orphaned" online because any diligent search will find it on your own website thanks to Leo's wonderful built in SEO.

Just a few, I'm sure there's more.
That

travelwitness

« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2013, 14:23 »
+1
I've always been skeptical of individual sites, just because as a customer, I would see it and think, "Okay, this site has one image I like, but then I'd have to go open another account at a different site to get that other image I need.  Why not just open one account at SS, FT, DT, etc. and get it altogether?"


Leo is developing a search theme that will act as a hub much like www.symbiostock.info but with a shopping cart - as a customer you should be able to place various images from the search results into one cart - go to the check out, pay and download the files. From the outside it will look like one collection - from the inside it will be linked to the network - payments will be distributed through Paypal to the artists. As far as a customer is concerned it should act and feel like any other agency.

Ron

« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2013, 14:26 »
0
I've always been skeptical of individual sites, just because as a customer, I would see it and think, "Okay, this site has one image I like, but then I'd have to go open another account at a different site to get that other image I need.  Why not just open one account at SS, FT, DT, etc. and get it altogether?"


Leo is developing a search theme that will act as a hub much like www.symbiostock.info but with a shopping cart - as a customer you should be able to place various images from the search results into one cart - go to the check out, pay and download the files. From the outside it will look like one collection - from the inside it will be linked to the network - payments will be distributed through Paypal to the artists. As far as a customer is concerned it should act and feel like any other agency.


We cant call it an agency or it might get troublesome  ;)

marthamarks

« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2013, 14:36 »
0
I mentioned on another thread that are remarkable parallels between "indie" artists/photographers and "indie" authors. Reading this thread only reinforces that the reasons creators might go indie, plus the challenges and rewards of doing so, are almost identical.

Just a few minutes ago, on a blog for writers that I subscribe to, I read the following post (which I've edited only for length). Substitute "artist/photographer" for "writer" and you've got a good argument for going indie. Substitute "Leo" for "our friend and colleague Wil Kinghan" and you'll see we all have an ally in this game.

The red highlights are mine. They might have come from this very thread!

http://wildhunt.org/2013/07/adventures-in-self-publishing-an-interview-with-john-matthews.html

**************************

Self-publishing has now become a very viable option for even the most accomplished and prolific of authors.  This mode of production puts the power back into the artists hands.

Last week I interviewed one such author John Matthews. Over the past 30 years he has written over 90 books on Arthurian mythology as well as a volume of poetry and many short stories.  His childrens book, Pirates, reached the number one slot on the New York Times Best Seller list in 2006. 
. . . .

H: After all this time, why have you decided to move away from traditional publishing to self-publishing?

J: Partly from economic necessity, partly from a desire to get some of our old books back into print, and partly to have some control over the appearance and content of the books.

All of our professional lives my wife, Caitlin, and I have had to contend with editors who felt they knew better than we did, who wanted to change the emphasis of various things, cut things out, amend spellings, and so on. ... So we decided that we would do it ourselves. Fortunately weve been aided in this by our friend and colleague Wil Kinghan, who as well as being an incredibly good artist with whom weve worked several times, also trained as a graphic designer. His input means that the books will look sensational, and hopefully have very few mistakes. In fact, we think they look a lot better than some of the professional titles released by the big publishing houses.
. . . .

H:  Lets go back to the self- vs. trad- publishing debate.  Weigh the pros and cons of the two. 

J: The pros of course are that you have control over what goes into print, though this can have a downside, which Ill come back to in a minute. The other good thing is that you get to keep most of the money that comes in from purchases. If you think that with an average publisher the very highest royalty that you can get is 12%, we can offer our authors 60%. And that is of actual money received, not percentages of percentages, as you get from so many regular publishers.

The cons are that if you intend to do it yourself it is quite labor-intensive and unless you are very computer savvy can take quite a long time to fathom out all the different formatting problems. The other con goes back to the idea of being able to publish whatever you like. This means, unfortunately, that a lot of shall we say less than wonderful books get out there. They may have nice covers, interesting titles, and they may have an interesting topic; but they can be badly written and full of typos. Thats why you need an editor

But there is still one thing which I personally find annoying, but which is at the moment anyway, inevitable. There is a certain stigma around publishing your own work. There will always be people out there who will say, Well, it cant be very good then, or he or she would have published it with a proper publisher! Theres not much we can do about that, though the proof of the pudding is in the eating. In time I think people will realize that a great deal of really good work is coming out from smaller companies or self published authors.

And theres no getting away from the fact that you can make a lot of money this way. Ive heard of people earning as much as $10,000 a month from their self published books. Of course these tend to be very popular subjects, mostly fiction, and the people in question usually have a couple of dozen books out there. Even if youre only getting 60% of say $5.95 it soon adds up.

H: Are there any other limitations to self-publishing?

J: I dont think there are any limitations providing you have the time and energy and the know-how to format your manuscript. That can require a lot of learning if its going to be done properly. But you have to start somewhere.

« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2013, 14:44 »
0
Just out of interest is there anyone out there considering Symbiostock but is holding back?

If you are hesitant - what would persuade you to start using Symbiostock?

It sounds interesting, but I'm still a little unclear on why I should use it.  ???

Doesn't PayPal take a small stipend?

It's pretty sweet getting 100% royalties.

« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2013, 14:47 »
0
It's hard sometimes for me even to upload all my content on new agency, for free!
That is reason why I don't have my portfolio on many low earners...
So, in short, too expensive, too experimental, too complicated for someone who don't know anything about making website, to much effort for small money....

« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2013, 14:48 »
+3
Thanks to those who provided info to answer my questions, especially Tinny for the detailed response.

I'm guessing that the investment is several days of time, and no additional money (given that I already have the web site and BlueHost).

I would prefer it if there were a decent agency or two and I could skip setting up my own site (as opposed to some who actively wanted to have their own sales site), but the bottom line is that the microstock agencies are either like abusive pimps, or decent folks with very little traffic and low monthly earnings.. Alamy used to be OK, but since late May sales for me  have just collapsed.

Symbiostock appears to be a huge step up from KTools as a base for a self-hosted site. I was/am part of WarmPicture and I suppose I need to convince myself that a network of Symbiostock self hosted sites will be able to succeed where WarmPicture, even with all Dan's hard work, wasn't able to.

Ron

« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2013, 14:50 »
0
Jo, it would be great to have you on board. Word.  :)

« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2013, 14:56 »
0
I mentioned on another thread that are remarkable parallels between "indie" artists/photographers and "indie" authors. Reading this thread only reinforces that the reasons creators might go indie, plus the challenges and rewards of doing so, are almost identical.

Just a few minutes ago, on a blog for writers that I subscribe to, I read the following post (which I've edited only for length). Substitute "artist/photographer" for "writer" and you've got a good argument for going indie. Substitute "Leo" for "our friend and colleague Wil Kinghan" and you'll see we all have an ally in this game.

Most successful self publishing authors will be mostly selling through trusted e-commerce marketplaces - ie the Amazon Kindle store and, to a lesser extent, Nook and and Apple iBooks. Not from their own sites.

eBook sites can afford to take a much smaller commission probably because of their economies of scale and partly because of cross subsidy. The ebook business is also largely consumer rather than business orientated  and is relatively low friction.

« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2013, 15:30 »
0
What's holding me back?

Hmm - time to set this all up for once other reasons:
not having a paypal account (I work with skrill)
not knowing about the legal repercussions of doing that from the perspective of German law (those were already reasons why I took my blog down). Other than that - it looks interesting... .

« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2013, 18:32 »
0
I would really like to join, I think it is the future. And Im tired of the greedy middlemen, they have had their time.

But I find it hard to take concrete action, I dont know how to get started.

So if someone would help me, and guide me a bit, I would be willing to pay....

« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2013, 18:39 »
0
The only thing holding me back is the upfront cost of hosting and that's it.  Then it would be just a matter of self-reviewing, uploading, making the site look good and advertising (SEO stuff).

If it wasn't for that I'd already be up and running by now.

« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2013, 18:48 »
0
How much are the hosting costs?
and other costs?
and where are the servers located?

« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2013, 19:01 »
+1
The only thing holding me back is the upfront cost of hosting and that's it.  Then it would be just a matter of self-reviewing, uploading, making the site look good and advertising (SEO stuff).

If it wasn't for that I'd already be up and running by now.
????
hosting is $5-10 a month  - you'll make that with 1 sale per month

« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2013, 19:06 »
+3

.....

So far, I think there's little evidence of SY sites getting over this hump.  But I'd like to be proven wrong, to be convinced there's real opportunity here, so please chime in with your reports of great sales, and maybe you'll convince me to join.

no one's TRYING to convince you -- and once we start making the big bucks, why would anyone be looking for competition??

« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2013, 19:15 »
-3
JESUS man,
all kinds of different sizes, licenses and prices.
Thats not smart.

That should be standardized, else the customers have to sit and read everything at each photographers site. The whole concept is only viable when many artists provide a good variety of images, standing alone, very few photographers can provide enough variation.

Is there any way, the symbioticers can agree to standardize things?
And is there any way that the umbrella can stand out stronger and guarantee that the members are not pirates?
Also each site must have a return to base button so that the customer can go back and search the main search engine.
And BTW, how is the algoritm? And who holds the key to that.
As it is now, the customer is directed to the individual photographers and gets lost there.
And what about customers registration, at every photogs site?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 19:21 by JPSDK »

« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2013, 19:29 »
0
The only thing holding me back is the upfront cost of hosting and that's it.  Then it would be just a matter of self-reviewing, uploading, making the site look good and advertising (SEO stuff).

If it wasn't for that I'd already be up and running by now.

Hosting is pretty cheap, really.  Especially when you look at it as a necessary business expense.  Even if it costs $10 - $15 a month, you are only paying $120 - $180 a year.  Try to buy any advertising anywhere to promote you and your business for only $10 a month. Compare how cheap a web host is to any other form of advertising - such as buying a 1,000 business cards - when you buy them, what do you do with them?  Most hosting companies have first month free or nearly free programs to get started.  If you think about it, and shop around, you could probably get started for a lot less than you might expect. You sure don't need to spend much for your first 90 days, then you can evaluate if this is something you want to do.

George
 

« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2013, 19:35 »
+8
JESUS man,
all kinds of different sizes, licenses and prices.
Thats not smart.

That should be standardized, else the customers have to sit and read everything at each photographers site. The whole concept is only viable when many artists provide a good variety of images, standing alone, very few photographers can provide enough variation.

Is there any way, the symbioticers can agree to standardize things?
And is there any way that the umbrella can stand out stronger and guarantee that the members are not pirates?
Also each site must have a return to base button so that the customer can go back and search the main search engine.
And BTW, how is the algoritm? And who holds the key to that.
As it is now, the customer is directed to the individual photographers and gets lost there.
And what about customers registration, at every photogs site?

If we wanted to do all that, we would just stay at the agencies and let them keep reaming us.

Just like at the agencies, there are no guarantees. People there steal images. If you have the knowledge, you can customize your own search engine, some people are. Yes, customers have to register at every site, but they have to do that if they want to buy from different agencies, so nothing different there.

We don't want to standardize things. Our sites are individual. Bear in mind, this is a very young venture. Yes, there are holes, but there are BIG holes at the agencies.

Just like microstock, when it first started, wasn't perfect. It caused big arguments between traditional photographers and microstockers. Images were GIVEN away, contributors didn't even get paid. This venture is going to have growing pains, but I, for one, am sick and tired of getting reamed. If I have the slightest chance of making some money, I am going to try it. If it doesn't work, at least I can live with myself and be proud that I didn't just sit around, complain about how the agency is reaming me, and NOT DO ANYTHING.

If you think staying at an agency is the right choice, you should stick with it. I don't and apparently a lot of other people don't either because everyday, more and more sites are cropping up.

« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2013, 19:53 »
-1
ja ja, thats all true, but look at it from the customers side.

A customer would want to register only once and read only one EULA and relate to one set of prices.

The whole idea of symbiosis is that in unity the photographers provide enough value and choice for the customer.

That idea is being destroyed by inadequate structures. Definately counter productive for the whole concept.
Just a simple thing as links to photographers opening in a blank window instead of _self, would save the customer from getting lost.

As it is now, its not good enough and I would not buy there. Which again I might, because I would like to support my fellow artists.



« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2013, 20:12 »
+1
I agree with a lot of what Cathy says, but I also think JPSDK has some good points. I said right at the start that everyone should use the same licence, and I hadn't realised that some were not doing this.

As JPSDK says, think about it from the customer's point of view, and ask yourself why you would want to make things more difficult for customers? If you were a customer, would you really want to read all those different licences? I think a licence should be imposed on Sym, and it could even exclude those explicit photos which Leo and some others want to keep out.

If we are ever going to progress beyond the occasional sale to individuals, we do need a centralised shopping cart. This could actually work out cheaper than individual sales, certainly for us, as Paypal charge us 50 cents for every transaction.

It would be really great of some of the members of MSG who are also customers of the agencies, would look at Symbiostock and give some honest feedback from the buyers point of view.

We've seen what CogentMarketing thinks - not impressed! But that is what we really need to hear, so we can make things better for customers.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head, please can others join in and point out what's wrong with these ideas, and suggest alternatives.

« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2013, 20:13 »
+1
I see I recieve minuses, because Im critical and dared to mention the customers.



 

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