MicrostockGroup
Microstock Photography Forum - General => Symbiostock => Symbiostock - General => Topic started by: Ron on February 25, 2014, 02:46
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Symbiostock must coast for a while.
Success is relative, depending on how one measures it. I'm happy to see many people with their own sites. More and more people are gettings sales.
The expanse of the network has halted though, so I no longer have any way to maintain my involvement in it since that was my only means of profit. So I'm joining your ranks! I'm an illustrator again! YAAYYY!
To drop the load a bit, we're simply sending the little forum involvement we have back to MSG ( [url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiostock/[/url] ([url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiostock/[/url]) ) so I can give all of my focus to my customers again, designing mascots, promoting my own site...stuff you guys are familiar with.
I will not be available for quite a while, depending on how long it takes for things to get active again with Symbiostock. Meanwhile stock illustration has always been profitable, so I can fall back on that.
Not bad news...not amazing news. Its just news. Its almost boring actually...
Symbiostock.org Read Only
Symbiostock.org will be left open as a read-only reference once I get a chance to change settings, since it has quite a bit of good info. I cannot keep up these sites since they generate very, very little income. In fact, I will have to spend quite a bit of time bouncing back from Symbiostock development, since it required a heavy investment of time which did not show proper returns.
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what? Is it no longer being developed? Did I choose to buy the wrong software :-\
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What?! :o
Whose quote is it?
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Symbiostock news letter
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I've never had a newsletter from them, only bought it a few months ago and now it's dead? What a waste of money!
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Ron, you seem to be the only one who saw that message, was that the whole thing?
Flotsam - you mean creating your own site and being able to sell your own images directly to the customer at a price you choose is a waste of time.
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If the project has folded and plugins are no longer going to be updated for security fixes or future versions of WP then yes I've wasted money on buying them and time on implementing them and should have purchased a different option.
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This is strange. I can understand that Leo wants to move on but why drop everything without a notice? symbiostock.org all of a sudden out of the air, I know that costs money to upkeep but I can hardly believe the site is paid per day. Why didn't he give a notice on symbiostock.org that it was closing down and he was stopping?
Strange.
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The first words on Ron's post read
"Symbostock must coast for a while"
It looks to me, from what is written there that Leo needs to start earning a living again with his illustrations as Symbiostock is not paying off for him. He has spent most of the last year or more working on it, not forgetting everyone he has helped setting up their sites and sorting out their site problems - most, if not al,l for free so I imagine he needs some income now. The wording "Symbiostock must coast for a while" is hardly the same as saying the project is dead. Normally when Leo writes something he writes quite a bit more so unless he was in a hurry I suspect the original text could have been a bit longer ?
I know how he feels, I have helped quite a few people out with their sites, and done it with pleasure, but when I am doing that I am not doing my own work and being self employed that means a loss. This is why I have added a line to my signature now :)
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Ron, you seem to be the only one who saw that message, was that the whole thing?
I received it as well and I have to say I don't like these kind of surprises. Not a good form to communicate wanted changes.
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I didn't get any kind of newsletter either, just noticed yesterday that the SYS forum was "down for maintenance." It's still down, and if Ron hadn't posted those quotations, I wouldn't have thought anything about it.
Ron, is there a date on those quotations? The name of a sender attached? Did they come from Leo? If so, when? It would help to know that.
We all greatly appreciate Leo's talent and what he's done for our little community. But the near-constant up-down-up-down instability is disconcerting, to say the least.
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I didn't get any kind of newsletter either, just noticed yesterday that the SYS forum was "down for maintenance." It's still down, and if Ron hadn't posted those quotations, I wouldn't have thought anything about it.
Ron, is there a date on those quotations? The name of a sender attached? Did they come from Leo? If so, when? It would help to know that.
We all greatly appreciate Leo's talent and what he's done for our little community. But the near-constant up-down-up-down instability is disconcerting, to say the least.
If you want to give me your email address by PM, I can forward the newsletter to you.
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I got the news letter too (you had to resubscribe recently). It sounds like he is taking I hiatus to earn some money and he also mentioned that he has been hired to develop the VAT plugin so I am guessing once developed someone will be offering that for sale. Probably a better route to go rather than the continuous improvements that we all request. I hope Dennis can chime in with some clarification.
I am sorry to see the .org site disappear so suddenly. We were starting to get some momentum on the Twitter experiment and lost access to the list not to mention other resources
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Sorry, thought everyone with a site would get the NL. Its dated today and here is the whole text.
I have no idea what happened, I have been out of the country since Friday and got back yesterday.
3 Updates. Symbiostock coasting, Vat Tax Plugin, Network site services
Symbiostock must coast for a while.
Success is relative, depending on how one measures it. I'm happy to see many people with their own sites. More and more people are gettings sales.
The expanse of the network has halted though, so I no longer have any way to maintain my involvement in it since that was my only means of profit. So I'm joining your ranks! I'm an illustrator again! YAAYYY!
To drop the load a bit, we're simply sending the little forum involvement we have back to MSG ( [url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiostock/[/url] ([url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiostock/[/url]) ) so I can give all of my focus to my customers again, designing mascots, promoting my own site...stuff you guys are familiar with.
I will not be available for quite a while, depending on how long it takes for things to get active again with Symbiostock. Meanwhile stock illustration has always been profitable, so I can fall back on that.
Not bad news...not amazing news. Its just news. Its almost boring actually...
But here is good news (next)
VAT Tax Plugin
As a parting project I've been hired to do a VAT Tax plugin. So far its wonderful. It actually fetches the user's information to minimize the form-filling work involved. This will be extremely useful to you people who require this in a transaction.
This is what happens:
• During checkout, user enters VAT Tax number.
• Plugin checks two online databases, returning all information on the customer, including address, business name, etc.
• Customer verfies this is correct, then completes sale.
• You and customer will both have necessary info for taxes.
This plugin is progressing nicely and should be available soon.
The ones who hired me to do it will have the greatest say in the features it has. So far its off to a great start and the most challenging to design features are already functional. Good news!
Site Services
Some of you for reasons of technology or workload are unable to completely run your own sites. It can be a learning curve, to say the least. Steve Cascoly has been setting up the means to do assisted hosting on Symbiostock sites. Its possible AJT will do the same, but I cannot speak for them. We are actually quite independent though we've been coordinated in designing features :)
If you are experienced in the areas of hosting and running a Symbiostock site, you may wish to help others set up as well, and monitor their sites, charging a modest monthly fee. The time they are saved in setting up and running a site will allow them to focus on the all-important product amount / quality necessary for customer conversion, and it should be a justifiable trade.
Symbiostock.org Read Only
Symbiostock.org will be left open as a read-only reference once I get a chance to change settings, since it has quite a bit of good info. I cannot keep up these sites since they generate very, very little income. In fact, I will have to spend quite a bit of time bouncing back from Symbiostock development, since it required a heavy investment of time which did not show proper returns.
In the Words of Doc Brown...
Who's seen Back to the Future II? Here's the closing script to the movie:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AtE54HpXBM[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AtE54HpXBM[/url])
Jennifer: Doctor Brown, I brought this note back from the future and now it's erased.
Doc: Of course it's erased!
Jennifer: But what does that mean?
Doc: It means your future hasn't been written yet. No one's has. Your future is whatever you make it, so make it a good one. Both of you.
Marty: We will, Doc!
Doc: Stand back! All right, boys, buckle up.
Marty: Hey, Doc! Where you going now? Back to the future?
Doc: Nope. Already been there.
Some of us are Martys, some of us are Doc Browns. But together we can change the future :D
I hope you can enjoy the results of having your own Stock Image websites, and we've all had a share in making it a reality. Give it time, and work, and soon you'll be glad you made the investment.
As one who's been there, its a sure thing.
Leo
Italic and bold as is from the NL
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I got the news letter too (you had to resubscribe recently). It sounds like he is taking I hiatus to earn some money and he also mentioned that he has been hired to develop the VAT plugin so I am guessing once developed someone will be offering that for sale. Probably a better route to go rather than the continuous improvements that we all request. I hope Dennis can chime in with some clarification.
I am sorry to see the .org site disappear so suddenly. We were starting to get some momentum on the Twitter experiment and lost access to the list not to mention other resources
I received the newsletter as well. What I don't understand is why the Symbiostock forum had to be be closed. There is a huge amount of valuable information there not only for newcomers but also for existing owners who where trying to collectively push Symbiostock on twitter. What a pity :(
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Hey gang,
I've start a Facebook group for Symbiostockers to communicate with one another.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1413060825613141/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1413060825613141/)
And we still have Twitter, which is going along swimmingly. People are re-tweeting like crazy.
I've kept my site very simple, which seems to be working fine, and sales are picking up for me. In fact, I've had people get in touch to buy extended licenses and for custom work, which aren't even available on my site. And one microstock house has emailed to say they'd like to represent me. :)
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Hey gang,
I've start a Facebook group for Symbiostockers to communicate with one another.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1413060825613141/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1413060825613141/)
And we still have Twitter, which is going along swimmingly. People are re-tweeting like crazy.
I've kept my site very simple, which seems to be working fine, and sales are picking up for me. In fact, I've had people get in touch to buy extended licenses and for custom work, which aren't even available on my site. And one microstock house has emailed to say they'd like to represent me. :)
Congratulations! Those are great news!!
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Michele's new FB page is off to a great start. What a fine idea that was!
OK, everybody, let's migrate over to
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1413060825613141/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1413060825613141/)
and keep the conversation going.
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Speaking only for myself I don't believe the project is dead. Leo has been saying for some time now that he needs to get back to his own life. He also said that he would work on the project until it reached a stable version. To me this isn't news but I was surprised by the board being closed and moved here though.
I don't think this is the end but rather just a time to get on with our lives and build our sites.
Jo
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I got the newsletter last night and honestly have no clue what it means. I have asked to join the FB group though so we can chat there
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I do not use FB so sadly will now be out of the loop if everyone decides to take the discussion elsewhere
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Obviously, something happened with Leo behind the scenes. I'm working on it. Ill get back with you all later today.
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I don't understand the sudden decision to turn off the symbiostock.org site, we have been encouraged to have technical dissusions over there rather than MSGroup. Now those discussions are hidden.
Why not slightly delay hitting the off switch until figuring out the way to make it read only.
All this "drama" just leads potential site starters to wonder if this is legit and "fuels the fires" of symbio's many detractors who love to tear it down.
**Kudos to Leo for quickly restoring the other forum in read only mode so the valuable technical data is available again***
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All this "drama" just leads potential site starters to wonder if this is legit and "fuels the fires" of symbio's many detractors who love to tear it down.
+1
If the growth of SYS sites has slowed in recent months, it may well be because the platform doesn't appear as stable and reliable as it once did.
And that's very sad, because there are now over 170 connected SYS sites with almost 250,000 images available through the network. Site owners report increasing sales. We have a fine Facebook page and an active Twitter community that supports one another's work. This should be the best of times for this endeavor.
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This is my final post in MSG.
Symbiostock's greatest strenth is also its greatest weakness: Its mostly free.
The most crucial and advanced features come in the basic free package. Some specialized features come in the optional packages.
Many of you do not understand the developments that occur - some good, some bad, so today I'm going to write the final words on this subject before going back to illustration. I'm going to address you the same as I speak to the professionals behind closed doors, otherwise you will not fully understand the truth of why this project barely survives, although being quite loved by the majority of users. Forgive me if some of you are insulted.
Free and Open Source - Its greatest strength is it's greatest weakness
For those of you who do not remember, the infamous Google deal that had spawned this project. It was the proverbial handwriting on the wall, evidence that our profession was deadly near to a close. That deal sent a multi-tiered message to people. Things have never been the same since.
Symbiostock was started as a simple "life boat" system for when the big ships started to sink, or professionals could no longer work in Microstock. Symbiostock sites would form the alternative, theoretically. My site worked for me. Another one I had designed did great -- why not introduce the concept to the microstockers?
Yuri - Microstock Not Sustainable. "Professionals work with Professionals"
"Professional" is a vague word, its definition varies among cultures. Yuri realized there was no future in the current agency system for professionals, and spoke concerning "professionals" making correct decisions, and was ridiculed for 20+ pages.
Nonetheless, things taking shape, Symbiostock was seeming like a timely idea. Yet the culture that spit on Yuri would also be the downfall of the Symbiostock project.
Love it privately, hate it publically
There are a few particularly strong voices which have slandered to this project to the point that people are afraid to get involved. These people know who they are. When things are going great, they are missing. When something goes wrong, they "vent" saying what a waste of time this has been. Their ignorance is their ally with their imagination being their main window to reality. The more extreme cases painted this out to be a scam. They killed it for everyone. They are like the virus that keeps the whole working body sick. Although the majority are happy, the angry have the loudest and most influential voice.
You see, although I never expected to get rich, it was never expected that a project like this could be so badly misrepresented by angry entitled people that it would become almost completely a volunteer work. So even the modest income I made to support my work on this was killed. I had hoped to make this into a paying situation for the greatest supporters and developers. The problem is there are far too many agendas and distorted visions of this business, along with preconceptions on how things should be, vs what they are.
But for that silent, happy majority? ...
The original invitation that started this entire project was this:
"Open Source Platform For Selling Images: Authors and PHP Developers Wanted" ( http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiost ... 8ced1532ae (http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiostock-development-area/selling-rf-images-is-really-not-that-hard-php-developers-wanted/?PHPSESSID=c699e930ad35287943e6508ced1532ae) )
Notice the title "Developers Wanted". The idea was that a good number of developers could get involved. Everything in this projected idea was achieved except the title. We have a few developers, but due to constraints we are all badly limited. Our work was dependent on growth, but growth is compromized due to distorted horror stories of Symbiostock involvement. Its almost as though the whole project was concieved with a virus in it -- microstock thinking.
Many developers who get involved do not stick around. The ones we had at first were treated insolently and left. I'm happy for them.
"It looks like your only interested in getting more contributors..."
This was the knife that entered my creative artery, and I gradually bled out. That was the day Symbistock died silently. I stumbled for a few weeks trying to get up again, but this was the end of it. After a year of trouble and drama creating Symbiostock, things had become stable enough where I might refine the main website and make good on my year's time/money investement.
When I finally unveiled it, it was disappointment. People expected a mock-microstock site. What they saw was a queen bee for laying Symbistock eggs. And what came was the most hurtful accusation to date: "It looks like your only interested in getting more contributors..."
People, how do developers profit on this? By getting comissions? A sense of making the world a better place? Symbistock is largely free. In the long-run it leaves the smallest financial footprint on a "contributor" of all Microstock and Direct-sell methods. The only way we (developers) could possibly profit on this is through expanse.
Yet somehow despite that the ENTIRE purpose of Symbistock was to lay a giant catch-net for customers (and indeed it works) I was also expected to take my one income source and dedicate that to the network's customer base as well.
While there have been some major attacks, this one was the worst, because this one got through the armor. It told me I was welcome as long as I worked for free.
The only way development continues
AJT and Cascoly are the network's (development-related) unsung heros. If AJT held the same philosophy as many the network would not be connected. I would have loved nothing more than to pay them. But this project was engineered to be a perfect alterative at as small a financial investement as possible.
The only way development will continue is through expanse. Photographers are a highly disadvantaged group. I can't keep making plugins for sale, and finding new ways to charge you. Illustrators have a great advantage, being much less competed against.
I can see that there will be ways they can monetize this, and they are both very competent. Its my personal hope that they succeed greatly in their investments of time. I've given them permission to give the premium upgrade to those who hop onto their server space to take advantage of their expertise. That is how much I appreciate their work.
The Future
Its not that I hate the network. Its as we stated. Its greatest strength is its greatest weakness. Its mostly free. Its also trafficked by a few angry who have the most distinct voice. My experience with Symbiostock is like pushing a rock up hill, where the hill gets steeper, and the rock gets bigger. And every ten paces or so one of a few angry people come out and shoot insults at me. The few projects I've tried to organize as a "community" were trolled and destroyed before one productive person got involved. The Twitter game was the only successful coordianted project of the 3 attempted.
As you know I've been hired to do a plugin for VAT Tax. After that I will maintain Symbiostock with every Wordpress release.
Why we cannot keep these boards open
I intend to keep this as read-only since it contains all needed reference. But having an open board is one more thing for me to monitor. Right now my time must be invested in the final plugin and doing illustration full time without distraction.
My Advantage is Your Advantage
The strange irony of this is really something you should take home from this thread. The main reason I could afford to carry a project like this for a year on it's minute profit: Because of my own website. What am I going back to as a sure redemption from a year walking through the desert? Illustration, on my own website.
The thing you have is the thing that I have, and the main advantage. We have our own website.
This is only a small fraction of the issue regarding keeping this network afloat. For me its a dead-weight. But our individual websites are really the achievement. Perhaps a few of the people I have spoken to privately can expound.
But the basic note is this:
1. It was killed by angry people.
2. It is easy to maintain on an individual level, which is why it has a future.
3. I'll be back after I recover from a year of financial breakdown and stress.
4. I'll update the theme to remove branding and correct issues that occur with Wordpress updates since that's only a few minutes work.
5. There is a VAT Tax plugin on the way, well developed.
6. Symbiostock was a pet project. But some pets bite and should be left in a cage.
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As you know I've been hired to do a plugin for VAT Tax. After that I will maintain Symbiostock with every Wordpress release.
That's all I would really ask is that the project is at least maintained. The rest is really up to us as individual sites and a community to drive traffic to our sites and get sales. To be honest, that's all I ever expected.
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Two things:
1. Thanks for the time and effort that Leo and all other developers (programmers and testers) put into what it has become.
2. I would have loved to contribute more (besides bug reporting). I didn't know anyone who has the necessary skills that could have worked on this for free. It's pretty unbelievable that this was even created by people who do something else for a living.
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Yep - thanks for all you have done Leo, it is very much appreciated. I am glad to hear that you have passed it onto others who hopefully can keep it moving along.
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Two times I was writing a reaction and both times Leaf closed the topic. This time hopefully I’ve been in time to post!
Leo, even if you should have become a millionaire last year with your work for Symbiostock, you should have deserved it!
Hopefully you do well with your website and enjoy being with your family.
When the VAT-plugin is ready , (nearly) everyone is now able to build his own website and sell his own work, even within the EU, if they wish to do so AND at very low costs. This was never possible before you came up with the idea of Symbiostock and we all thank you for that.
When getting negative reactions: don’forget most people are grateful for all the work you did.
I am absolutely sure that the Symbiostock idea will not die.
The negative comments makes no sense. People are busy for years to build up a good portfolio with an agency and then expect to get rich overnight selling from their own website? That’s not a realistic view, to say the least. Things need time to grow.
Paul Melcher used in his blog about Symbiostock the example of the mushroom-network:
http://blog.melchersystem.com/2013/05/08/crowd-managed-photo-agency/ (http://blog.melchersystem.com/2013/05/08/crowd-managed-photo-agency/)
…it is a 2,200 year old fungus whose fruits, or otherwise known as mushrooms, peek out here and there…
Can it be destroyed partially? Yes. And then it will recover. Can it be destroyed totally? Yes, but you need to destroy the whole forest too! And when the forest starts to grow again, the mushrooms will too.
And I think this is the same with Symbiostock. When people silently go on building their own sites, the Symbio-principle will not be destroyed and will be successful at last, unless you destroy the internet too...
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First of all Kudos to Leo!
Having been an Technology Director I know the feeling for Leo! I admit I was on the sideline on this project (wanted to see it mature plus I lacked the time - full time day job and this wonderful MS business) - but I see promise and what it can be in the future.
Here are some of my thoughts-
1. Limit a test group before going to the masses
2. Keep all noise (comments) internal
3. Run a proof of concept to a larger but limited group (players that can have major impact on the project)
4. Release to the masses - have general uses defined along with expectations
Once again thanks Leo for your hard efforts and don't worry this project will turn out to be a success...
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Hold on, we'll make it!
Leo, good luck out there :) And don't you forget, how much people are grateful for all this hard work! (even if they are not writing here:P )
You know, you did something great :)
Forgive me now, I'm coming back to improve my Sys site :)
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Thanks Leo, and good luck for your future projects :)
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The Symbiostock forum is back! Thank you Leo!! ;)
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The Symbiostock forum is back! Thank you Leo!! ;)
Sorry, I wrote too fast. It's read only and posts are not allowed :-(
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This is my final post in MSG.
Symbiostock's greatest strenth is also its greatest weakness: Its mostly free.
The most crucial and advanced features come in the basic free package. Some specialized features come in the optional packages.
Many of you do not understand the developments that occur - some good, some bad, so today I'm going to write the final words on this subject before going back to illustration. I'm going to address you the same as I speak to the professionals behind closed doors, otherwise you will not fully understand the truth of why this project barely survives, although being quite loved by the majority of users. Forgive me if some of you are insulted.
Free and Open Source - Its greatest strength is it's greatest weakness
For those of you who do not remember, the infamous Google deal that had spawned this project. It was the proverbial handwriting on the wall, evidence that our profession was deadly near to a close. That deal sent a multi-tiered message to people. Things have never been the same since.
Symbiostock was started as a simple "life boat" system for when the big ships started to sink, or professionals could no longer work in Microstock. Symbiostock sites would form the alternative, theoretically. My site worked for me. Another one I had designed did great -- why not introduce the concept to the microstockers?
Yuri - Microstock Not Sustainable. "Professionals work with Professionals"
"Professional" is a vague word, its definition varies among cultures. Yuri realized there was no future in the current agency system for professionals, and spoke concerning "professionals" making correct decisions, and was ridiculed for 20+ pages.
Nonetheless, things taking shape, Symbiostock was seeming like a timely idea. Yet the culture that spit on Yuri would also be the downfall of the Symbiostock project.
Love it privately, hate it publically
There are a few particularly strong voices which have slandered to this project to the point that people are afraid to get involved. These people know who they are. When things are going great, they are missing. When something goes wrong, they "vent" saying what a waste of time this has been. Their ignorance is their ally with their imagination being their main window to reality. The more extreme cases painted this out to be a scam. They killed it for everyone. They are like the virus that keeps the whole working body sick. Although the majority are happy, the angry have the loudest and most influential voice.
You see, although I never expected to get rich, it was never expected that a project like this could be so badly misrepresented by angry entitled people that it would become almost completely a volunteer work. So even the modest income I made to support my work on this was killed. I had hoped to make this into a paying situation for the greatest supporters and developers. The problem is there are far too many agendas and distorted visions of this business, along with preconceptions on how things should be, vs what they are.
But for that silent, happy majority? ...
The original invitation that started this entire project was this:
"Open Source Platform For Selling Images: Authors and PHP Developers Wanted" ( [url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiost[/url] ... 8ced1532ae ([url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiostock-development-area/selling-rf-images-is-really-not-that-hard-php-developers-wanted/?PHPSESSID=c699e930ad35287943e6508ced1532ae[/url]) )
Notice the title "Developers Wanted". The idea was that a good number of developers could get involved. Everything in this projected idea was achieved except the title. We have a few developers, but due to constraints we are all badly limited. Our work was dependent on growth, but growth is compromized due to distorted horror stories of Symbiostock involvement. Its almost as though the whole project was concieved with a virus in it -- microstock thinking.
Many developers who get involved do not stick around. The ones we had at first were treated insolently and left. I'm happy for them.
"It looks like your only interested in getting more contributors..."
This was the knife that entered my creative artery, and I gradually bled out. That was the day Symbistock died silently. I stumbled for a few weeks trying to get up again, but this was the end of it. After a year of trouble and drama creating Symbiostock, things had become stable enough where I might refine the main website and make good on my year's time/money investement.
When I finally unveiled it, it was disappointment. People expected a mock-microstock site. What they saw was a queen bee for laying Symbistock eggs. And what came was the most hurtful accusation to date: "It looks like your only interested in getting more contributors..."
People, how do developers profit on this? By getting comissions? A sense of making the world a better place? Symbistock is largely free. In the long-run it leaves the smallest financial footprint on a "contributor" of all Microstock and Direct-sell methods. The only way we (developers) could possibly profit on this is through expanse.
Yet somehow despite that the ENTIRE purpose of Symbistock was to lay a giant catch-net for customers (and indeed it works) I was also expected to take my one income source and dedicate that to the network's customer base as well.
While there have been some major attacks, this one was the worst, because this one got through the armor. It told me I was welcome as long as I worked for free.
The only way development continues
AJT and Cascoly are the network's (development-related) unsung heros. If AJT held the same philosophy as many the network would not be connected. I would have loved nothing more than to pay them. But this project was engineered to be a perfect alterative at as small a financial investement as possible.
The only way development will continue is through expanse. Photographers are a highly disadvantaged group. I can't keep making plugins for sale, and finding new ways to charge you. Illustrators have a great advantage, being much less competed against.
I can see that there will be ways they can monetize this, and they are both very competent. Its my personal hope that they succeed greatly in their investments of time. I've given them permission to give the premium upgrade to those who hop onto their server space to take advantage of their expertise. That is how much I appreciate their work.
The Future
Its not that I hate the network. Its as we stated. Its greatest strength is its greatest weakness. Its mostly free. Its also trafficked by a few angry who have the most distinct voice. My experience with Symbiostock is like pushing a rock up hill, where the hill gets steeper, and the rock gets bigger. And every ten paces or so one of a few angry people come out and shoot insults at me. The few projects I've tried to organize as a "community" were trolled and destroyed before one productive person got involved. The Twitter game was the only successful coordianted project of the 3 attempted.
As you know I've been hired to do a plugin for VAT Tax. After that I will maintain Symbiostock with every Wordpress release.
Why we cannot keep these boards open
I intend to keep this as read-only since it contains all needed reference. But having an open board is one more thing for me to monitor. Right now my time must be invested in the final plugin and doing illustration full time without distraction.
My Advantage is Your Advantage
The strange irony of this is really something you should take home from this thread. The main reason I could afford to carry a project like this for a year on it's minute profit: Because of my own website. What am I going back to as a sure redemption from a year walking through the desert? Illustration, on my own website.
The thing you have is the thing that I have, and the main advantage. We have our own website.
This is only a small fraction of the issue regarding keeping this network afloat. For me its a dead-weight. But our individual websites are really the achievement. Perhaps a few of the people I have spoken to privately can expound.
But the basic note is this:
1. It was killed by angry people.
2. It is easy to maintain on an individual level, which is why it has a future.
3. I'll be back after I recover from a year of financial breakdown and stress.
4. I'll update the theme to remove branding and correct issues that occur with Wordpress updates since that's only a few minutes work.
5. There is a VAT Tax plugin on the way, well developed.
6. Symbiostock was a pet project. But some pets bite and should be left in a cage.
Just to preserve this, as it will probably disappear soon.
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I didn't get any kind of newsletter either, just noticed yesterday that the SYS forum was "down for maintenance." It's still down, and if Ron hadn't posted those quotations, I wouldn't have thought anything about it.
Ron, is there a date on those quotations? The name of a sender attached? Did they come from Leo? If so, when? It would help to know that.
We all greatly appreciate Leo's talent and what he's done for our little community. But the near-constant up-down-up-down instability is disconcerting, to say the least.
Want to preserve this too.
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Congratulations Cathy, you managed to strike a massive blow for the micros. Not sure what your actual gripe was but you spoke loud and clear that you are OK with the mistreatment of the large micros and are avidly opposed to any sort of organization of the contributors. You have earned every thing IS,DP, and FT throw your way. You could have chosen to stay quietly upset or voiced your displeasure in private but you didn't. You can't kill this project but you did help kill its leader. Leo has moved on and everyone including yourself is poorer for it. You win, everyone else loses and if you can't see it I feel sorry for you.
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Congratulations Cathy, you managed to strike a massive blow for the micros. Not sure what your actual gripe was but you spoke loud and clear that you are OK with the mistreatment of the large micros and are avidly opposed to any sort of organization of the contributors. You have earned every thing IS,DP, and FT throw your way. You could have chosen to stay quietly upset or voiced your displeasure in private but you didn't. You can't kill this project but you did help kill its leader. Leo has moved on and everyone including yourself is poorer for it. You win, everyone else loses and if you can't see it I feel sorry for you.
I do not believe that the SY networking has any advantage. That has nothing to do with my belief that photographers should build their own sites and sell direct. I still believe in that, and I still have my own independent site. Either YOU believe in the project or you dont. Not my concern.
Photographers are desperate for a way to sell their work independently. The SY theme is a means to give that a shot. I dont want to use that software any more. If others do, its ok by me. I have found an alternative and i am going to give it a year. If nothing happens, which is very likely, based on the big picture of microstock nowadays, then i will try something else or give it up, too.
Stop already with the blame and guilt trips. They dont work on me. Sorry to disappoint.
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Congratulations Cathy, you managed to strike a massive blow for the micros. Not sure what your actual gripe was but you spoke loud and clear that you are OK with the mistreatment of the large micros and are avidly opposed to any sort of organization of the contributors. You have earned every thing IS,DP, and FT throw your way. You could have chosen to stay quietly upset or voiced your displeasure in private but you didn't. You can't kill this project but you did help kill its leader. Leo has moved on and everyone including yourself is poorer for it. You win, everyone else loses and if you can't see it I feel sorry for you.
I do not believe that the SY networking has any advantage. That has nothing to do with my belief that photographers should build their own sites and sell direct. I still believe in that, and I still have my own independent site. Either YOU believe in the project or you dont. Not my concern.
Photographers are desperate for a way to sell their work independently. The SY theme is a means to give that a shot. I dont want to use that software any more. If others do, its ok by me. I have found an alternative and i am going to give it a year. If nothing happens, which is very likely, based on the big picture of microstock nowadays, then i will try something else or give it up, too.
Stop already with the blame and guilt trips. They dont work on me. Sorry to disappoint.
No, you obviously have an axe to grind or you wouldn't have entered this thread at all. Your previous two posts were simply gloating. They were unnecessary and bitter. If you were indifferent then you would have read this thread determined it had nothing to do with you and moved on. Furthermore your vision is extremely short sighted. There is a huge amount of great self hosting information, tips and suggestions that went along with Symbiostock. Besides that there is a community being built which is actually creating a unifying mentality among contributors. That was the genius of Symbiostock. You completely missed the true value and turned it into something so much smaller. It became all about you and your lack of sales. I do agree though that you are probably better off elsewhere.
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I am also disappointed by the slow sales at my Symbiosite. But these things take a long time to get noticed and I'm not blaming anyone.
I'd like to thank Leo, Steve, AJT, JoAnn, Christine, Chromaco, Martha, and many others who helped us all and kept the spirit high.
If more people on the network had taken such positive actions, we might have been further ahead.
Keep on shooting,
Les
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:)
I have every right to read and/or post in any thread i choose. I am interested in where this project goes, whether it is a success or failure. I put eight months into it...yes, i would like to see what happens to it.
There IS a huge amount of info about self-hosting on here and SY forum. I am not in control of either one. I did not take the SY forum down. You are going to blame me for that? Just fyi, i have been busy and havent even spent but a few minutes here (posted in a thread about bluehost) and but a few minutes browsing over at SY forum these past couple of weeks. Whatever this latest brouhaha is about cant have anything to do with me. I am but one ignorant, lying woman, as some of you like to say. Theres always gotta be a scapegoat tho.
The genius of SY was supposed to be a way for contributors to sell their images and eliminate the middle man, the agency, and get a fair share for their work. The genius of SY was supposed to be the seo networking advantages for ALL people who were networked. A few people came up with that "community" idea and tried to push it. That was NOT what the original idea was. The original idea was all about independence. Each of us selling our own work. That the concept deviated and took another path was not something i was interested in, business-wise.
Your idea of value and mine are two different things. But thanks for affirming my decision that i am better off elsewhere. I already knew it, tho. ;)
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Thanks Leo, Thanks for your hard work, dedication and help to other symbio member and symbiostock theme , all the best for clipartillustration :-) , soon we will see some new awesome illustration like orange man :-).
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Dear Leo, thank you so much for your work on Symbiostock.
I wish you health, luck and satisfaction in your life.
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Congratulations Cathy, you managed to strike a massive blow for the micros.
In any project, especially software, the people who find problems are often more important and useful than those who find everything easy or say nothing. A sustainable project will be strong enough to survive disagreements, misunderstandings etc. Problems encountered and solved will shape the thing. A software project is never only technical but is always also social.
Open Source projects are never finished and need to be economically attractive enough to draw in enough developers. The number of users needs to be big enough to support an adequate number of developers. A project with only 1 or 2 developers will always quickly reach a point at which it is no longer developed and maintained - and is either orphaned or only bug fixed. Because people have other stuff to do.
Successful software is under constant development. There is always a road map - typically voted on and agreed. Software projects need some sort of management and rules. On the technical side the code needs to be managed - e.g. there needs to be agreement about how revisions will be implemented, when new code will officially be signed off etc. Also about how versions are maintained, timetabled etc.
IMO the strongest idea around Symbiostock is in everyone owning and paying for their own costs towards a single network. But it needs to be turnkey IMO. Also it needs to seem like a single network to potential buyers. Most portfolios are not strong enough to be viable standalone sites.
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We want to thank Leo and all people involved in the development of this project as well to all others, like us, that simply joined it giving it motive to keep it alive.
I also like to say to Leo that I completely understand what you're going through since, in a completely different area, I've passed through the exact same.
I too worked for free (in fact I've spent a lot of my money) in a very worthy cause, but had to leave due to the same type of people with petty and false accusations, and jealousies. As a prove that they were wrong, the whole project crashed after I left since I could not take it any more. Unfortunately in my case that meant that a lot of people, including many children, lost access to outdoors sports activities. All the following appeals for me to return were not enough to compensate for the damage made.
Up to this day the decision I had to make hurts, but it was inevitable since some people are not any better than cancers, corroding to death what they touch.
Someone mentioned the importance of the critiques. I could not agree more!
But when those critiques are made, not with the intent to help, but to deliberately destroy something based only of spite and grudge they are not helpful and they are not welcome.
Unfortunately all it takes it's a hand full of mean-spirited people to destroy good things. And that's one of the causes why the world is how it is. As I said in another discussion, it takes months or years to build a skyscraper, but only 5 minutes to build a bomb to destroy it.
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Thank you Leo for Symbiostock and good luck with illustration :)
You are doing the right thing.
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Unfortunately all it takes it's a hand full of mean-spirited people to destroy good things.
if a project is sustainable it will be able to cope with criticism.
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Unfortunately all it takes it's a hand full of mean-spirited people to destroy good things.
if a project is sustainable it will be able to cope with criticism.
The vast majority of the criticism I saw was purely destructive, and in no way meant to help. It was based in slandering, lies and misinformation.
Against that there's hardly anything to do especially if it kills the growth a project needs to become sustainable.
You wouldn't mess with a crocodile, right? He is "sustainable". But if it happens for you to cross with a new-born croc, or better with an egg you just need to step on it. You just need to kill it before it grows and becomes "sustainable". That is what happened with Symbiostock.
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Here we go again. Lots of minuses for me! Oh, the dramatics of it all. ::)
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Unfortunately all it takes it's a hand full of mean-spirited people to destroy good things.
if a project is sustainable it will be able to cope with criticism.
You nailed it in your earlier post. There needs to be more than one developer for this type of project. Leo put out a call, but not many can afford to commit. If the SY idea were working, it wouldnt matter what i said. The problem is the idea isnt working as it was intended. Anyone who believed in the project would find a way to take any criticism and use it to make improvements.
Theres no shortage of troops to come in with the minuses, thats for sure! As for actually doing something constructive for the project, its much easier to blame someone else than to actually give up ones time or money to help out. ;)
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The vast majority of the criticism I saw was purely destructive, and in no way meant to help. It was based in slandering, lies and misinformation.
It makes no difference. There are always going to be disagreements. You cannot blame people with different opinions for you not doing a thing. You should treat all criticism as positive.
Look at other open source projects. If people are going to learn from this then they need to start defining their goals and sketching out a roadmap. Then you need to look at what issues need to be solved, how you can get people with the right skills involved, how much funding the thing needs and how you can raise that funding. Instead of blaming one or two people for falling out on a forum.
if the thing is serious then take it seriously. Pick up what Leo has started and make it into something. And don't hang on to anything you have so far including existing code - treat that as maybe the beta.
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:)
Your idea of value and mine are two different things. But thanks for affirming my decision that i am better off elsewhere. I already knew it, tho. ;)
Hasta la vista, baby
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:)
Your idea of value and mine are two different things. But thanks for affirming my decision that i am better off elsewhere. I already knew it, tho. ;)
Hasta la vista, baby
Not going anywhere. :) Just not using SY software.
Many issues related to SY are relevant to other wordpress sites.
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Hasta la vista, baby
I would suggest to ignore her. For some reason her personality needs this kind of attention. Why should we give her what she needs?
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Hasta la vista, baby
I would suggest to ignore her. For some reason her personality needs this kind of attention. Why should we give her what she needs?
Really? I would say the same about some of you people here. After all, what started this whole thread was a newsletter that went out to all SYers, then the removal of the SY forum, then leos big long post. I havent even been around much the past couple of weeks. I would say that it is someone else who requires the attention.
I am merely responding to the events, just like you all. Just not woo-yaying.
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The vast majority of the criticism I saw was purely destructive, and in no way meant to help. It was based in slandering, lies and misinformation.
It makes no difference. There are always going to be disagreements. You cannot blame people with different opinions for you not doing a thing. You should treat all criticism as positive.
Look at other open source projects. If people are going to learn from this then they need to start defining their goals and sketching out a roadmap. Then you need to look at what issues need to be solved, how you can get people with the right skills involved, how much funding the thing needs and how you can raise that funding. Instead of blaming one or two people for falling out on a forum.
if the thing is serious then take it seriously. Pick up what Leo has started and make it into something. And don't hang on to anything you have so far including existing code - treat that as maybe the beta.
I agree with almost all of what you are saying here with a couple of exceptions. I am pleased that you realize that Symbiostock is a collection of individual sites. That seems to elude a lot of people. I grew up and was educated in a constructive criticism culture. It made me better and I fully understand its value. The problem here is you are mudding up the subject. What I am talking about is not constructive and the criticism was directed at an individual person, not the project. It is the equivalent of walking into a gallery, looking at a painting and then turning to the artist and saying "I don't like it, and you're fat!" The first part is OK the second part is not.
Leo is not Symbiostock. He was it's rocket fuel. About once a month he offered up some extremely useful piece of information or upgrade or the like. I am certain that a month from now a plug-in or some other useful thing would have appeared from him. My site works very well and will continue to do so for a long time. Nevertheless I am poorer and will make less sales because of his absence. Also indirectly you will be poorer too. Any method of contributors standing up together in a small way slows the abuse of the agencies. I know you know this, and perhaps your royalty rates will remain unchanged for a bit longer because of Symbiostock. Unfortunately probably not as long as they would have if Leo was still involved.
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If Leo is not SY, then it can continue on, hopefully to be something positive for all involved.
I never called Leo fat, but i most definitely criticized his sense of humor AS IT RELATES to web developing. He threatened to hack into peoples website and mess with them because they were "misbehaving". To me, thats not funny. At all. And that is a lot different than calling someone fat. I paid for software, and i dont want the developer threatening any kind of hacking. Thats just not cool.
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@chromaco i think you are much too much focused on personality clashes. Far too little focused on why some projects fail and others succeed. Exactly the same as the stupid personality driven arguments and protests about the stock agencies. But worse in some ways because nobody has moderated the thing or taken charge.
A project like this needs a development budget. And it needs developers. The people developing the project need direction - agreed strategies, common design policies etc. A plan.
Ask yourself whether as a business you would today commit to paying for services from the team behind Symbiostock so far. Where is the rest of the team? Who looks after versioning? Who speaks for the project ? What is the roadmap? How are decisions agreed? Who is in charge of communications, security etc?
This is all way more important surely than some forum argument. You've all had ages to start putting a team together and working on strategies.
ETA: sooner or later there will be a big issue and nobody on hand to fix it.
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If Leo is not SY, then it can continue on, hopefully to be something positive for all involved.
I never called Leo fat, but i most definitely criticized his sense of humor AS IT RELATES to web developing. He threatened to hack into peoples website and mess with them because they were "misbehaving". To me, thats not funny. At all. And that is a lot different than calling someone fat. I paid for software, and i dont want the developer threatening any kind of hacking. Thats just not cool.
No, you called him a liar, a cheat, a fraud, and a Ponzi schemer. I used the metaphor to avoid this exact discussion but alas like everything else you broke it down into irrelevant minutia. Perhaps Leo's sense of humor was ill conceived but I really don't understand your seemingly never ending ire towards what was in essence an act of altruism by him.
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@chromaco i think you are much too much focused on personality clashes. Far too little focused on why some projects fail and others succeed. Exactly the same as the stupid personality driven arguments and protests about the stock agencies. But worse in some ways because nobody has moderated the thing or taken charge.
A project like this needs a development budget. And it needs developers. The people developing the project need direction - agreed strategies, common design policies etc. A plan.
Ask yourself whether as a business you would today commit to paying for services from the team behind Symbiostock so far. Where is the rest of the team? Who looks after versioning? Who speaks for the project ? What is the roadmap? How are decisions agreed? Who is in charge of communications, security etc?
This is all way more important surely than some forum argument. You've all had ages to start putting a team together and working on strategies.
ETA: sooner or later there will be a big issue and nobody on hand to fix it.
Perhaps, but the misconception that this was a business is the problem. That was never the plan. The plan was to build a large network of sites, say 1000. At that point individual coders (including Leo) could write add ons and plugins. The idea was to create the market and then ultimately serve that market. Yes I think a smart businessman would see the logic in this plan. Ultimately this plan is still working. As far as no-one being around to fix-it that is not an issue. The question is whether people will be willing to pay for something that used to be free.
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@chromaco i think you are much too much focused on personality clashes. Far too little focused on why some projects fail and others succeed. Exactly the same as the stupid personality driven arguments and protests about the stock agencies. But worse in some ways because nobody has moderated the thing or taken charge.
A project like this needs a development budget. And it needs developers. The people developing the project need direction - agreed strategies, common design policies etc. A plan.
Ask yourself whether as a business you would today commit to paying for services from the team behind Symbiostock so far. Where is the rest of the team? Who looks after versioning? Who speaks for the project ? What is the roadmap? How are decisions agreed? Who is in charge of communications, security etc?
This is all way more important surely than some forum argument. You've all had ages to start putting a team together and working on strategies.
ETA: sooner or later there will be a big issue and nobody on hand to fix it.
While I agree with a little bit of this, where would the budget come from? The entire point of this was a guy who wanted to put something good out there for other people to have an alternative to the agencies. That he did it in the face of a lot of naysayers is remarkable.
I think Leo did an astounding job and the software itself is a work of art. I will be using it for a long time to come. On the network side, I just don't know. This thread alone shows everyone has wildly different ideas of what it should be. The good side of it is, its open source. The comments above could be easily implemented for a network if someone had the time and budget and interest. Nothing stopping them. Nothing stopping someone else doing it on a shoestring or for free. As well, I can start my own network and so can anyone else.
It seems like everyone is fixated on only one network. Why? I really don't get it? What if I use the software to sell music or other themes, or ebooks (it would certainly do that)? I'd want a different one and it would be up to me to create it. As it stands, if I had the time and knowledge I would very well consider building my own network for stock photo sales.
I am no where near as eloquent as Leo or Chromaco though, so I may be phrasing this poorly. But the gist is:
No one is stopping you or anyone else from realizing your own vision of what this should be.
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If Leo is not SY, then it can continue on, hopefully to be something positive for all involved.
I never called Leo fat, but i most definitely criticized his sense of humor AS IT RELATES to web developing. He threatened to hack into peoples website and mess with them because they were "misbehaving". To me, thats not funny. At all. And that is a lot different than calling someone fat. I paid for software, and i dont want the developer threatening any kind of hacking. Thats just not cool.
No, you called him a liar, a cheat, a fraud, and a Ponzi schemer. I used the metaphor to avoid this exact discussion but alas like everything else you broke it down into irrelevant minutia. Perhaps Leo's sense of humor was ill conceived but I really don't understand your seemingly never ending ire towards what was in essence an act of altruism by him.
Nope, those are your words. Seo is based on links to and from sites. The more links, the more advantages. A few in SY have a ton more links than most. No where in there did i use the words you are saying. That is you and your buds doing the name calling.
My never ending ire...i am merely defending myself, just like you. No ire. This board keeps getting bombed, after leo himself encouraged all to go over to the SY forum. Why do the bombs keep showing up here, why not over there? Im ok with it, i thought it kind of rude when people would ask questions here and get sent over there.
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I will be using it for a long time to come. On the network side, I just don't know.
Software always needs to be developed maintained. Otherwise it inevitably quickly becomes incompatible - perhaps an issue with Paypal, or perhaps some php or Wordpress upgrade will break it. Or there will be some security issue. This always happens with software. It needs to be managed and monitored.
Well it might get to 1000 sites. But almost none of those sites will ever sell much at all. In which case what is the point ? Not unless the thing starts to look like a single destination with common branding. Because most of the portfolios are not strong enough, on their own, to be viable standalone sites. And unless the thing makes money there will be no economic incentive or momentum to support further development.
Sites which can do well without being part of a greater whole would have done well on any platform - including many which currently already look much better across many different devices etc.
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I stay with my opinion that Symbiostock is one of the best ideas that came up in the last years.
But of course, like all other software that has to work on so many different computers, there are problems showing up. When even the specialists at Microsoft are not able to solve all the problems with their software, what can be expected from others?
When searching the big plugin database of Wordpress you often see: (this number of) people say it works.(this number of)people say it doesn’t… Nothing works for everyone , or works for everyone the same way, unless you use an Apple computer. Apple narrowed the use of hard and software to get stability at all circumstances. That is simply not possible when using Windows. Too much different hardware combinations and too much different software combinations. These days the stability of the software and hardware is already better then it ever was before.
Therefore, when website building isn’t your specialism, the best is to keep your Symbio website simple and cheap. At least for the moment. Over time there will come up a database with software and plugins that are proven to work well with each other. It is too early now for that.
The strength of Symbiostock is that everone is fully independent. You are the only one to choose what to do with it. Build a website or not, network or not, try to sell your work, or choose to only show your portfolio.
There was a problem with tax rules in the EU. It affected me too. In short time there will be a plugin for that. These crazy rules force people living in the EU to run a complete administration of their sales. Not every one likes to do that. You are free to choose to do not. Also in some Eastern European countries it seems to be difficult to sell direct from your website. But in that situation you are still able to build and run a website of your own at low costs and with great seo. Some people choose to link to agencies like Alamy or Stocksy. Everyone who is not able to sell direct from his website can choose this path to get more visibility of his work. You are fully independent and free to make your own choices depending on your situation. Only future can tell what will come up next, people are endlessly creative!
What has be done in less then a year from scratch by only a few enthousiast people is unbelievable!
And what will happen when thousands of people over the whole world will pick up this idea and give it their own swing, no one can tell…
Be pig-headed, don’t listen to negatives, think out your own ideas and make your own choices!
When Symbiostock was like a young plant or tree, growing from one central point, it could be easily be broken at this stage, but just for the full freedom that everyone has worldwide to make his/her own choices and find his/her own way to work with it, it will be succesfull.
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I will be using it for a long time to come. On the network side, I just don't know.
Software always needs to be developed maintained. Otherwise it inevitably quickly becomes incompatible - perhaps an issue with Paypal, or perhaps some php or Wordpress upgrade will break it. Or there will be some security issue. This always happens with software. It needs to be managed and monitored.
Well it might get to 1000 sites. But almost none of those sites will ever sell much at all. In which case what is the point ? Not unless the thing starts to look like a single destination with common branding. Because most of the portfolios are not strong enough, on their own, to be viable standalone sites. And unless the thing makes money there will be no economic incentive or momentum to support further development.
Sites which can do well without being part of a greater whole would have done well on any platform - including many which currently already look much better across many different devices etc.
As Leo said above he "will maintain Symbiostock with every Wordpress release."
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As Leo said above he "will maintain Symbiostock with every Wordpress release."
And what if he decides to go on holiday for a few weeks and there is a significant security issue ?
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Nope, those are your words. Seo is based on links to and from sites. The more links, the more advantages. A few in SY have a ton more links than most. No where in there did i use the words you are saying. That is you and your buds doing the name calling.
You can call something a Ponzi scheme without actually using the words "Ponzi scheme."
"One only has to look at the massive amount of links the top few people have to your site in Webmaster Tools to see what is going on...It sounds an awful lot like just another internet scheme...get a whole bunch of people to do your selling for you so you can live off their backs."
That's a pretty clear description of a Ponzi scheme, IMO. Your words.
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You can call something a Ponzi scheme without actually using the words "Ponzi scheme."
Don't people understand that the more you blame and whine at each other the less likely it is that your project survives and prospers ?
It's as if you are deliberately avoiding the business and technical issues because bitching at each other is easier.
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Theres no shortage of troops to come in with the minuses, thats for sure! As for actually doing something constructive for the project, its much easier to blame someone else than to actually give up ones time or money to help out. ;)
Cathy, I'm afraid you have really talked yourself out of the credibility of "actually doing something constructive". I'm beginning to suspect you really like the drama, and at any cost. We get it, you think SymbioStock is a failure. So come up with a solution because the minuses on your posts indicate people are tired of hearing the same old vitriol. Yes, when you post without thinking, I WILL vote your post down. Fortunately for your minuses I don't come here very often.
So I get your message. There is no need to keep on ....
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As Leo said above he "will maintain Symbiostock with every Wordpress release."
And what if he decides to go on holiday for a few weeks and there is a significant security issue ?
Well, anything could happen. What if he doesn't. What if someone else decides to improve the theme for themselves (again, open source). If Leo completely walked away tomorrow some of us could conceivably keep our own sites going and potentially release fixes. We could "what if" for everything. Being fair, Leo has demonstrated many times that he is conspicuously reliable in fixing anything that goes wrong.
Really, this whole thing seems to be two parts to me. The software, which seems after a full year of testing and improving, very stable. Certainly compared to other Wordpress themes I've used.
The other part is the network side. To be completely honest, I really have less interest in this side because my main niche doesn't really work with most of the other sites. So I'm happy to go alone. Also, sales are just one reason to have my portfolio on it's own website. I've gone over those a few times here in the forum and I stand by them. Even if I never recoup my (negligible) costs in setting it up, I'm happy to do it.
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As Leo said above he "will maintain Symbiostock with every Wordpress release."
And what if he decides to go on holiday for a few weeks and there is a significant security issue ?
And what if there's an earthquake and what if there's a flood and what if...
Clearly things can and do go wrong. The major "businesses" of our existing stock agencies have, with a few exceptions, had major software disasters (I'm thinking Fotolia V2.0, iStock's disambiguation after the Getty CV was introduced, most of iStock's "improvements" in search and every fall for the last several years at iStock) that rendered their site, slow, insecure, subject to credit card fraud (think that Christmas/New Year at iStock where no one was home for about 2 weeks).
These disasters happened with paid staff, corporate structure and in some cases parent companies with deep pockets.
What all the opining by those who don't have Symbiostock sites reminds me of is the type of comment and advice non-parents give parents about how they should be raising their kids. If only you do A, B and C, everything will turn out just fine. It's easy for them to say because other than being a kid, they have no experience on the subject - on the other side of the fence, as it were, as a parent.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but some are informed opinions and some are just hot air. Life is messy and sometimes you have to take that leap and give things a try - if I weren't willing to jump of a cliff now and then I wouldn't be married, I wouldn't have kids and I wouldn't have a Symbiostock site.
I'm well aware that everything could go tits up. I worked in software organizations for a lot of years and I understand most of the issues and risks involved. But listening to a bunch of know-it-alls sitting on the sidelines with nothing at stake just lobbing criticism and doom-and-gloom is irritating.
Let's just stipulate that the critics are wonderful sooth-sayers who have it all figured out and the rest of us with Symbiostock sites are the naive kids who just wont listen to your sage advice. You go and get on with whatever else it is you have to do and let the rest of us work on our sites, or not, in peace.
Find someone else to bless with your great wisdom - please!
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You can call something a Ponzi scheme without actually using the words "Ponzi scheme."
Don't people understand that the more you blame and whine at each other the less likely it is that your project survives and prospers ?
It's as if you are deliberately avoiding the business and technical issues because bitching at each other is easier.
Yep.
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Nope, those are your words. Seo is based on links to and from sites. The more links, the more advantages. A few in SY have a ton more links than most. No where in there did i use the words you are saying. That is you and your buds doing the name calling.
You can call something a Ponzi scheme without actually using the words "Ponzi scheme."
"One only has to look at the massive amount of links the top few people have to your site in Webmaster Tools to see what is going on...It sounds an awful lot like just another internet scheme...get a whole bunch of people to do your selling for you so you can live off their backs."
That's a pretty clear description of a Ponzi scheme, IMO. Your words.
Good one Shelma. So you disagree with the statement that the more links a site has, the more seo advantages? And do you disagree with the statement that the more people recruited, the more links that means for those people? In a way, seo is pretty much a ponzi scheme (if thats what you say is a ponzi scheme). The games that have to be played to get any traction with seo is kind of a game.
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Theres no shortage of troops to come in with the minuses, thats for sure! As for actually doing something constructive for the project, its much easier to blame someone else than to actually give up ones time or money to help out. ;)
Cathy, I'm afraid you have really talked yourself out of the credibility of "actually doing something constructive". I'm beginning to suspect you really like the drama, and at any cost. We get it, you think SymbioStock is a failure. So come up with a solution because the minuses on your posts indicate people are tired of hearing the same old vitriol. Yes, when you post without thinking, I WILL vote your post down. Fortunately for your minuses I don't come here very often.
So I get your message. There is no need to keep on ....
Dont care what you think. Who emailed the newsletter? Who posted the big long post with big giant type? You are mistaken, that wasnt me creating the drama. Yep, i will defend myself. Dont care about the minuses. Everyone knows the troops have been gathered once again.
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As Leo said above he "will maintain Symbiostock with every Wordpress release."
And what if he decides to go on holiday for a few weeks and there is a significant security issue ?
And what if there's an earthquake and what if there's a flood and what if...
Clearly things can and do go wrong. The major "businesses" of our existing stock agencies have, with a few exceptions, had major software disasters (I'm thinking Fotolia V2.0, iStock's disambiguation after the Getty CV was introduced, most of iStock's "improvements" in search and every fall for the last several years at iStock) that rendered their site, slow, insecure, subject to credit card fraud (think that Christmas/New Year at iStock where no one was home for about 2 weeks).
These disasters happened with paid staff, corporate structure and in some cases parent companies with deep pockets.
What all the opining by those who don't have Symbiostock sites reminds me of is the type of comment and advice non-parents give parents about how they should be raising their kids. If only you do A, B and C, everything will turn out just fine. It's easy for them to say because other than being a kid, they have no experience on the subject - on the other side of the fence, as it were, as a parent.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but some are informed opinions and some are just hot air. Life is messy and sometimes you have to take that leap and give things a try - if I weren't willing to jump of a cliff now and then I wouldn't be married, I wouldn't have kids and I wouldn't have a Symbiostock site.
I'm well aware that everything could go tits up. I worked in software organizations for a lot of years and I understand most of the issues and risks involved. But listening to a bunch of know-it-alls sitting on the sidelines with nothing at stake just lobbing criticism and doom-and-gloom is irritating.
Let's just stipulate that the critics are wonderful sooth-sayers who have it all figured out and the rest of us with Symbiostock sites are the naive kids who just wont listen to your sage advice. You go and get on with whatever else it is you have to do and let the rest of us work on our sites, or not, in peace.
Find someone else to bless with your great wisdom - please!
Really? Bunhill is about the only one making any sense, actually looking at things from a business standpoint. Others just seem to be coming to the defense of the person who clearly doesnt want to be bothered with it all anymore. How many times has the threat of abandonment come up? How many times have posts disappeared? What about the disappearing forum?
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Really? Bunhill is about the only one making any sense, actually looking at things from a business standpoint. Others just seem to be coming to the defense of the person who clearly doesnt want to be bothered with it all anymore. How many times has the threat of abandonment come up? How many times have posts disappeared? What about the disappearing forum?
FWIW I think that Leo has done an amazing job. From a software perspective I completely understand his frustration. There is only so much that one person can do.
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Really? Bunhill is about the only one making any sense, actually looking at things from a business standpoint. Others just seem to be coming to the defense of the person who clearly doesnt want to be bothered with it all anymore. How many times has the threat of abandonment come up? How many times have posts disappeared? What about the disappearing forum?
FWIW I think that Leo has done an amazing job. From a software perspective I completely understand his frustration. There is only so much that one person can do.
He did. I was there for 8 months. You are correct, it cant be done by one person. Why on earth he is here posting some of the stuff he does is beyond me.
By the way, the definition of a ponzi scheme ( words i never used) which has nothing to do with this situation:
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/ponzischeme.asp (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/ponzischeme.asp)
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I purchased the plugin a few months ago, I didn't buy it for the networking features, only because it appeared that it was going to be supported for some time and seemed to be heading somewhere and I wanted some reliable, secure software with licensing ability to sell images directly. I've read enough drama about it now to realise that I chose the wrong software and should have spent more time reading the various forums before committing myself to many hours of work setting it up. This software could have a future but I feel only as a commercial plugin, with a clear roadmap, the networking is a nice idea but personally I don't think it's viable unless the plugin is paid for only and would probably only work successfully if all sites are networked automatically. As it stands and as previously mentioned in this thread it only takes ones small security flaw.... thus no longer worth putting any effort in too.
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Good one Shelma. So you disagree with the statement that the more links a site has, the more seo advantages? And do you disagree with the statement that the more people recruited, the more links that means for those people? In a way, seo is pretty much a ponzi scheme (if thats what you say is a ponzi scheme). The games that have to be played to get any traction with seo is kind of a game.
I think it's well understood that more links are good but what I don't understand is the perception that anyone did something underhanded or fraudulent in creating additional avenues to create links. They had the initiative and coding skills to create master search engines, analyze and share data reports, etc. Good for them they put effort into alternate means to drive traffic to their sites. I certainly don't fault them for it or think they somehow stabbed me in the back. In fact, I appreciated those efforts. As for the links included in the theme, which were explains as a thank you to some involved in early development, there was always the option to turn them off. I guess I'm just perplexed as to what part of this was unfair or a scheme to benefit some and deprive others when everyone has the same options they could pursue.
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I purchased the plugin a few months ago, I didn't buy it for the networking features, only because it appeared that it was going to be supported for some time and seemed to be heading somewhere and I wanted some reliable, secure software with licensing ability to sell images directly. I've read enough drama about it now to realise that I chose the wrong software and should have spent more time reading the various forums before committing myself to many hours of work setting it up. This software could have a future but I feel only as a commercial plugin, with a clear roadmap, the networking is a nice idea but personally I don't think it's viable unless the plugin is paid for only and would probably only work successfully if all sites are networked automatically. As it stands and as previously mentioned in this thread it only takes ones small security flaw.... thus no longer worth putting any effort in too.
What part of Leo concentrating on paid stuff (plus supporting anything needed for the basic theme) didn't you read the first few times you brought this up?
If you're not using the network side, what part of the software are you not finding viable? Which security flaw are you referring to? All a customer needs to use for the actual site is an email address. Payment, etc is run through Paypal. I'm confused by your statements and I'm curious what plugin you bought?
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Good one Shelma. So you disagree with the statement that the more links a site has, the more seo advantages? And do you disagree with the statement that the more people recruited, the more links that means for those people? In a way, seo is pretty much a ponzi scheme (if thats what you say is a ponzi scheme). The games that have to be played to get any traction with seo is kind of a game.
I think it's well understood that more links are good but what I don't understand is the perception that anyone did something underhanded or fraudulent in creating additional avenues to create links. They had the initiative and coding skills to create master search engines, analyze and share data reports, etc. Good for them they put effort into alternate means to drive traffic to their sites. I certainly don't fault them for it or think they somehow stabbed me in the back. In fact, I appreciated those efforts. As for the links included in the theme, which were explains as a thank you to some involved in early development, there was always the option to turn them off. I guess I'm just perplexed as to what part of this was unfair or a scheme to benefit some and deprive others when everyone has the same options they could pursue.
Everyone has their own opinion about what is happening and what is not. I know what I believe, and if you don't believe it, that's ok with me. No one here has to believe me, everyone can do their own research and come to their own conclusions. I know that the networking in SY, for me, doesnt work. I know that it IS working for a few. It's functionality I don't need, so I have scrapped it. If others don't want to, that's ok with me. Some people are using the site just as a site. Thats cool. I didnt want to hassle with the problems every time an update was done, and the constant up and down of the projects future was too dramatic.
Most photographers cannot code, create master search engines, analyze and share data reports. Those that can, have a huge advantage over the rest and every single site that gets built helps them along with more links. If YOU want to call that a ponzi scheme, underhanded, or whatever, you can. I call it NOT what was presented as the original networking idea. Could I do those things if I wanted to? Sure if I wanted to spend my time becoming an seo expert. Just isnt what the SY wordpress theme was designed to do. It was designed for us photographers to sell images and be networked to provide seo advantages. It is not doing that. Ask the other 160 or so people in the network, not me.
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I purchased the plugin a few months ago, I didn't buy it for the networking features, only because it appeared that it was going to be supported for some time and seemed to be heading somewhere and I wanted some reliable, secure software with licensing ability to sell images directly. I've read enough drama about it now to realise that I chose the wrong software and should have spent more time reading the various forums before committing myself to many hours of work setting it up. This software could have a future but I feel only as a commercial plugin, with a clear roadmap, the networking is a nice idea but personally I don't think it's viable unless the plugin is paid for only and would probably only work successfully if all sites are networked automatically. As it stands and as previously mentioned in this thread it only takes ones small security flaw.... thus no longer worth putting any effort in too.
What part of Leo concentrating on paid stuff (plus supporting anything needed for the basic theme) didn't you read the first few times you brought this up?
If you're not using the network side, what part of the software are you not finding viable? Which security flaw are you referring to? All a customer needs to use for the actual site is an email address. Payment, etc is run through Paypal. I'm confused by your statements and I'm curious what plugin you bought?
Instead of being sarcastic please re read my post properly - I bought the Symbiostock professional plugin - perhaps if everyone had done the same the developer wouldn't have pulled the plug. If the software is not being actively worked on then at some point there WILL be security flaws and incompatibilities. Although the developer has said they will keep it updated, he is only one person and obviously as it is not returning any revenue and his heart is no longer in it, we will have to wait until he has the time to do so. You may be happy with this scenario if you're using free software, I am not, it is not good business sense. It takes time to develop a site which = money, and it is pointless building foundations on software that is no longer being actively developed unless you have the time and the programming skills to do it yourself, thus in my opinion the software is no longer viable.
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If the software is not being actively worked on then at some point there WILL be security flaws and incompatibilities. Although the developer has said they will keep it updated, he is only one person and obviously as it is not returning any revenue and his heart is no longer in it, we will have to wait until he has the time to do so.
OK, so basically you just don't believe him, despite him answering your question in the original newsletter. Just wanted to be clear. I also missed the part where he said his plugins weren't making revenue. (Uh oh, here comes the sarcasm) I guess as a self employed developer it would make sense for him to abandoned the parts that make money, and his paying customers, even after he has said he wouldn't?
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You know what? I apologize for the sarcasm. It is beneath me. The product speaks for itself and doesn't need help from me cheerleading. Just seems like you're making a whole lot of something that hasn't happened.
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If the software is not being actively worked on then at some point there WILL be security flaws and incompatibilities. Although the developer has said they will keep it updated, he is only one person and obviously as it is not returning any revenue and his heart is no longer in it, we will have to wait until he has the time to do so.
OK, so basically you just don't believe him, despite him answering your question in the original newsletter. Just wanted to be clear. I also missed the part where he said his plugins weren't making revenue. (Uh oh, here comes the sarcasm) I guess as a self employed developer it would make sense for him to abandoned the parts that make money, and his paying customers, even after he has said he wouldn't?
Farbled, this is just the sort of petty nonsense that spoils forums like this and projects like
Symbiostock. Did you conveniently miss the part where Leo wrote "a year of financial breakdown and stress"?. Stop trying to pick silly fights, this whole thread is full of the childish sort of petty back stabbing and people picking on each other that I would expect to see in a playground of 5 year olds. Grow up!
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Farbled, this is just the sort of petty nonsense that spoils forums like this and projects like
Symbiostock. Did you conveniently miss the part where Leo wrote "a year of financial breakdown and stress"?. Stop trying to pick silly fights, this whole thread is full of the childish sort of petty back stabbing and people picking on each other that I would expect to see in a playground of 5 year olds. Grow up!
That's hilarious because I was seriously thinking much the same thing about your posts! I'm not picking fights, and I was very much trying to stay out of it. But it bothers me to see someone hammering the same asked and answered questions for seemingly no reason other than to tear things down. You have added nothing constructive, and I'm angry at letting myself react to some of these posts. I will, as you say "grow up" and stay out of this thread. There is nothing useful or constructive going on now.
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You can call something a Ponzi scheme without actually using the words "Ponzi scheme."
....
It's as if you are deliberately avoiding the business and technical issues because bitching at each other is easier.
which issues? VAT is being addressed as a plugin; i'm not aware of any othe rmajor issues -- there are a number of suggestions and wishes for future enhancements, but right now Sym is fully functional for anyone who wants to get their site started
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......
I think it's well understood that more links are good but what I don't understand is the perception that anyone did something underhanded or fraudulent in creating additional avenues to create links. They had the initiative and coding skills to create master search engines, analyze and share data reports, etc. Good for them they put effort into alternate means to drive traffic to their sites. I certainly don't fault them for it or think they somehow stabbed me in the back. In fact, I appreciated those efforts. As for the links included in the theme, which were explains as a thank you to some involved in early development, there was always the option to turn them off. I guess I'm just perplexed as to what part of this was unfair or a scheme to benefit some and deprive others when everyone has the same options they could pursue.
right --sym's networking does precisely what it was designed to do
networking of sym sites provides hundreds, if not thousands of links to the other members (any site owner can confirm this by using webmaster tools)-- what some people just don't understand is that SEO and traffic is only the first step. you need to do that to get people to look at your site. but 1000's of lin ks won't help at all if you don't have something people want to buy.
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which issues? VAT is being addressed as a plugin; i'm not aware of any othe rmajor issues -- there are a number of suggestions and wishes for future enhancements, but right now Sym is fully functional for anyone who wants to get their site started
It feels almost pointless responding because nobody wants to hear anything other than how great Symbiostock is. But here goes anyhow:
It seems very half finished, at best, to me. Which is possibly why the majority of the sites look so bad. Half the time the rollover previews (where implemented) disappear outside of the screen area. Presumably because the pages have not been tested at all different screen and window sizes. The networking is convoluted and does not look good IMO ( - by which I mean the suggested alternatives). Imagine you were a buyer - you wouldn't bother following all those links to different sites. And very few of the sites are convincing.
A huge amount of work has gone into developing this. It's an achievement. But it isn't there yet. And then it needs to be developed and maintained. For comparison have a look at sites built on the modern Squarespace platform - which is also much easier for users to implement and is maintained 24/7 by a team.
FWIW try doing a search on the site linked to in your own footer for example. All of the links returned by the search are broken.
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"FWIW try doing a search on the site linked to in your own footer for example. All of the links returned by the search are broken."
Works fine here.
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"FWIW try doing a search on the site linked to in your own footer for example. All of the links returned by the search are broken."
Works fine here.
(http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12672675/shared/Screen%20Shot%202014-02-27%20at%2000.20.24.jpg)
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My guess is that those links are to images deleted by the symbiostock site it refers to, and the Global Network Search has not yet filtered those out. If you scroll down the results are fine.
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My guess is that those links are to images deleted by the symbiostock site it refers to, and the Global Network Search has not yet filtered those out. If you scroll down the results are fine.
Well that's an example of stuff which needs sorting out. I mentioned this in response to the suggestion that Symbiostock is finished / ready. The page design looks like it is from the mid 90s.
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Maybe this is more to your liking then : http://symbiostock.info/index.php (http://symbiostock.info/index.php)
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.....but 1000's of links won't help at all if you don't have something people want to buy.
Bingo!
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.....but 1000's of links won't help at all if you don't have something people want to buy.
Bingo!
:D It MUST be the crappy images.
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Not crappy, but perhaps less in demand. Agencies have big collections of practically every subject and it seems that for now the Symsites with illustrations and vectors do best.
Buyers behaviour is also a point you have to deal with. When buying images from sites within the EU for example, buyers has to fill in lots of personal info for every single image they want to buy, thanks to the complicated tax rules. For buyers that needs lots of images it is perhaps easier to buy a subscription pack with an agency instead.
When a company buys images with a certain agency all the time, they are not going to change that at once too.
It is possible that the next thing is that people with symsites are going to ask for a plugin to let buyers have a sort of subscription. Not with the extreme low prices, but with the possibility for buyers to download a certain amount of images without the need for all the digital paperwork with every download.
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Isnt there a bit of witchhunting going on here and doesnt it smell of cult?
Sym had problems right from the start, one of them was the lack of self critique, very obvious now.
Not to mention a few others, that I wont mention now, but did in the past.
Now prove the cult thing true and give me some minuses, since I speak against the true belief.
(http://www.fotostart.dk/usergallery/fullsize/7901-20130716031229.jpg)
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It is possible that the next thing is that people with symsites are going to ask for a plugin to let buyers have a sort of subscription. Not with the extreme low prices, but with the possibility for buyers to download a certain amount of images without the need for all the digital paperwork with every download.
That is one of the best ideas I've seen in a while! Nice. :)
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@jpsdk i gave you a plus but i am certain both you and i will be getting an avalanche of minuses. It very much reminds me of the wooyayers at istock. And look where that is ending up.
On the other hand, developing plugins to add functionality is a positive step, but i am wondering if even some of the basic functions of SY are even working correctly. Last i heard, licenses couldnt be assigned easily.
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Isnt there a bit of witchhunting going on here and doesnt it smell of cult?
Sym had problems right from the start, one of them was the lack of self critique, very obvious now.
Not to mention a few others, that I wont mention now, but did in the past.
Now prove the cult thing true and give me some minuses, since I speak against the true belief.
I don't get the cult thing. I'm just trying to make some money and trying something new. Maybe, I didn't get my robe, sneakers and Kool-Aid when I opened my site.
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Isnt there a bit of witchhunting going on here and doesnt it smell of cult?
Sym had problems right from the start, one of them was the lack of self critique, very obvious now.
Not to mention a few others, that I wont mention now, but did in the past.
Now prove the cult thing true and give me some minuses, since I speak against the true belief.
I gave you a plus, just because (I don't know that they matter to anything and I just noticed them a few weeks ago, but they're fun) :) I do agree about the witch-hunt though, albeit probably not the same way as you do.
One thing I never know, which are you talking about? The actual theme software or the "official" network/forum/sites/etc. Because on the software side we critiqued (bug hunted, discussed improvements, concerns, etc) the heck out of it for a long, long time.
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I don't get the cult thing either. I think we're a bunch of people who are just tired of being a bit unappreciated by some of the microstock houses and are looking for an alternative way to earn income with our work. We're hoping that linking to each other gives us more visibility and gives buyers an alternate way to search more images than just those on our individual sites, which might help keep them coming back. We're helping each other navigate and boost SEO and Twitter and Facebook visibility.
It's a way to build a store with the added bonus of supportive people and more visibility.
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Isnt there a bit of witchhunting going on here and doesnt it smell of cult?
Sym had problems right from the start, one of them was the lack of self critique, very obvious now.
Not to mention a few others, that I wont mention now, but did in the past.
Now prove the cult thing true and give me some minuses, since I speak against the true belief.
I don't get the cult thing. I'm just trying to make some money and trying something new. Maybe, I didn't get my robe, sneakers and Kool-Aid when I opened my site.
Good luck with the making money thing, tho illustrators seem to have a leg up, so you will probably do well.
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Isnt there a bit of witchhunting going on here and doesnt it smell of cult?
Sym had problems right from the start, one of them was the lack of self critique, very obvious now.
Not to mention a few others, that I wont mention now, but did in the past.
Now prove the cult thing true and give me some minuses, since I speak against the true belief.
I don't get the cult thing. I'm just trying to make some money and trying something new. Maybe, I didn't get my robe, sneakers and Kool-Aid when I opened my site.
Good luck with the making money thing, tho illustrators seem to have a leg up, so you will probably do well.
Actually, a couple of photographers are doing well too.
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Actually, a couple of photographers are doing well too.
It aint me, promise. ;) Doubled my portfolio but not one sale since Dec 18, 2013. My site dropped 400,000 places on Alexa. Something happened and killed my sales. And I cant stop the free fall.
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Actually, a couple of photographers are doing well too.
It aint me, promise. ;) Doubled my portfolio but not one sale since Dec 18, 2013. My site dropped 400,000 places on Alexa. Something happened and killed my sales. And I cant stop the free fall.
I think it has already been established that a few people are doing "well". That is a relative term. It would only take 5 sales in the past year to be doing well, as compared with the majority of those networked.
It would have been so useful to get some sort of stats from those who are/were doing well, anonymously of course, such as x amount of images, social media plan, how many sites interlinked, etc etc.
Nobody wanted to share that kind pf data with everyone in the network tho.
I think i just made some constructive criticisms about SY. But watch how many minuses i get. Yeah, that cult. :)
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I shared. In fact that is what prompted your first explosion in the previous thread. I also explained in fairly large detail what I have done to achieve my sales. Later on many other people offered helpful suggestions and tips. I am pretty certain you have read that thread a number of times and have probably adopted many of those approaches for your non- symbio site. If you haven't you really should it will probably help your sales. However, instead of saying thanks for the helpful information you accused Leo of self marketing and other nefarious acts. This is why you get so many minuses. There is a lot of great info associated with Symbiostock but you refuse to acknowledge any of it.
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A cult in my belief is a gathering of people who do not accept challenges to the belief.
Basically the symbiostock idea was very healthy, and is a huge challenge to the operative market. It could have developed and won.
IF it had focused focused on the target, and not on the sand in the playground.
1.. The network must be a network and not some doomesdays preppers displaying their version. There must be a common vision, and a common display and gateway. There must be a goal for the entreprise, and it becomes meaningless when people wants freedom to upload pictures of their aunt on brown colours on the wall paper.
2.. There must be some kind of audit to maintain quality.
3...The network must be customer friendly.
SYM has failed in all three.
Mostly because of two factors:
You cannot base such a huge task on one mans shoulders, and pay him with only saying, thank you!
You could however, place it on the shoulders of many, if the vision is clear. But we cannot have an an irreplacable guru.
The software should not be a free one, but one fenced in, deep in Fort Knox.
So... next time.. Grab the software, fence it in, and describe a vision. And let the people who agree, form the arena, kick the others out.
It can be done, it is many times seen that gatherings of pheasants formed a coop, that outcompeted the middlemen.
The idea is sound, and could revolutionize commercial image licensing. But it does take a lot of discipline and hard work.
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I find it remarkable that the ones without sites know best what happened and what should be done.
De beste stuurlui staan aan wal. Google it.
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I find it remarkable that the ones without sites know best what happened and what should be done.
De beste stuurlui staan aan wal. Google it.
crap Ron, I have followed SYM right from the start, and I didnt get in, because I could see the weaknesses already back then.
I hoped it would have worked, hoped it would get rid of the child deceases and mature.
But it didnt, it had to die first.
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There are no child diseases any longer, people keep saying that. The product is mature. It broke down on accusations and envy.
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A cult in my belief is a gathering of people who do not accept challenges to the belief.
It's kind of hard to stop people from believing in themselves. If that is a cult, then I guess I was in that cult before I had a Symbio site. We all know Symbiostock isn't perfect. It is open source after all. It's supposed to be a work in progress that anybody can contribute to. You have to start somewhere though.
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A cult in my belief is a gathering of people who do not accept challenges to the belief.
Basically the symbiostock idea was very healthy, and is a huge challenge to the operative market. It could have developed and won.
IF it had focused focused on the target, and not on the sand in the playground.
1.. The network must be a network and not some doomesdays preppers displaying their version. There must be a common vision, and a common display and gateway. There must be a goal for the entreprise, and it becomes meaningless when people wants freedom to upload pictures of their aunt on brown colours on the wall paper.
2.. There must be some kind of audit to maintain quality.
3...The network must be customer friendly.
SYM has failed in all three.
Mostly because of two factors:
You cannot base such a huge task on one mans shoulders, and pay him with only saying, thank you!
You could however, place it on the shoulders of many, if the vision is clear. But we cannot have an an irreplacable guru.
The software should not be a free one, but one fenced in, deep in Fort Knox.
So... next time.. Grab the software, fence it in, and describe a vision. And let the people who agree, form the arena, kick the others out.
It can be done, it is many times seen that gatherings of pheasants formed a coop, that outcompeted the middlemen.
The idea is sound, and could revolutionize commercial image licensing. But it does take a lot of discipline and hard work.
I actually agree with a good chunk of this, who knew?
The thing I disagree with is that you are treating Leo's Sym network forum and pages as the only network. Others have search pages and "networks". So SYm (the software platform) hasn't failed at all. It works exactly as promised. When a musician or writer or other developer downloads the Sym theme, they will create yet another network, and another, etc, etc...
I agree though, and when I create a closed network it will be with similar subjects, prices and quality and, as it happens, Sym already has that functionality built in. And I won't join any other networks that impose restrictions on me unless I choose to. It really is the good side of this concept, there can be (and is) many networks. Leo just has an "official" one that got all the feedback.
"The software should not be a free one, but one fenced in, deep in Fort Knox." This one I don't agree with, having worked for a multimillion dollar reseller who used nothing but Opencart, Paypal and a decent accounting package. Worked (and still works) fine.
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A cult in my belief is a gathering of people who do not accept challenges to the belief.
Basically the symbiostock idea was very healthy, and is a huge challenge to the operative market. It could have developed and won.
IF it had focused focused on the target, and not on the sand in the playground.
1.. The network must be a network and not some doomesdays preppers displaying their version. There must be a common vision, and a common display and gateway. There must be a goal for the entreprise, and it becomes meaningless when people wants freedom to upload pictures of their aunt on brown colours on the wall paper.
2.. There must be some kind of audit to maintain quality.
3...The network must be customer friendly.
SYM has failed in all three.
Mostly because of two factors:
You cannot base such a huge task on one mans shoulders, and pay him with only saying, thank you!
You could however, place it on the shoulders of many, if the vision is clear. But we cannot have an an irreplacable guru.
The software should not be a free one, but one fenced in, deep in Fort Knox.
So... next time.. Grab the software, fence it in, and describe a vision. And let the people who agree, form the arena, kick the others out.
It can be done, it is many times seen that gatherings of pheasants formed a coop, that outcompeted the middlemen.
The idea is sound, and could revolutionize commercial image licensing. But it does take a lot of discipline and hard work.
I actually agree with a good chunk of this, who knew?
The thing I disagree with is that you are treating Leo's Sym network forum and pages as the only network. Others have search pages and "networks". So SYm (the software platform) hasn't failed at all. It works exactly as promised. When a musician or writer or other developer downloads the Sym theme, they will create yet another network, and another, etc, etc...
I agree though, and when I create a closed network it will be with similar subjects, prices and quality and, as it happens, Sym already has that functionality built in. And I won't join any other networks that impose restrictions on me unless I choose to. It really is the good side of this concept, there can be (and is) many networks. Leo just has an "official" one that got all the feedback.
"The software should not be a free one, but one fenced in, deep in Fort Knox." This one I don't agree with, having worked for a multimillion dollar reseller who used nothing but Opencart, Paypal and a decent accounting package. Worked (and still works) fine.
Either way, the integrity of your data must be controlled. If you loose your data your are out of business. I dont care which platform, free or not, but data must be guaranteed. The entegrity can be guaranteed both by an open source platform or a closed one, the point is that it should be in the coop or syms control when you are dependant on it. In this case one mand has the control, and has threathened to undermine paying users. Or did I misunderstand something?
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Actually, a couple of photographers are doing well too.
It aint me, promise. ;) Doubled my portfolio but not one sale since Dec 18, 2013. My site dropped 400,000 places on Alexa. Something happened and killed my sales. And I cant stop the free fall.
I think it has already been established that a few people are doing "well". That is a relative term. It would only take 5 sales in the past year to be doing well, as compared with the majority of those networked.
It would have been so useful to get some sort of stats from those who are/were doing well, anonymously of course, such as x amount of images, social media plan, how many sites interlinked, etc etc.
Nobody wanted to share that kind pf data with everyone in the network tho.
I think i just made some constructive criticisms about SY. But watch how many minuses i get. Yeah, that cult. :)
I've shared every sale. I've also followed several people's advice, which may have helped. They didn't have to share their advice...after all, at the end of the day, we're competitors. Helping me might hurt an illustrator who was willing to share his advice. And aren't you the one who insisted you were only interested in your own site and helping yourself? How about you share here how many sales you've had and all the details about how you achieved them. Hold on, let me make some popcorn.
There are 174 sites, yet your post got only 4 minuses. Cult? Huh?
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In this case one mand has the control, and has threathened to undermine paying users. Or did I misunderstand something?
What?!?!? See that is the damage that has been done. Gossip and lies and now its accepted as truth. Job done. Un-f^$ing-believable.
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1.. The network must be a network and not some doomesdays preppers displaying their version. There must be a common vision, and a common display and gateway. There must be a goal for the entreprise, and it becomes meaningless when people wants freedom to upload pictures of their aunt on brown colours on the wall paper.
2.. There must be some kind of audit to maintain quality.
3...The network must be customer friendly.
I thought we had been over this enough already. Your top 3 items above seem to spell out like another agency. If it were that simple then many of the low earners on the list would be sucessful, but they aren't.
Warmpicture was such an effort with pics from many high quality lifestyle and other photographers, they gave up.
I wanted to try something different, something where I control online pics, prices, license terms, appearance, etc. If it fails there isn't anyone to blame but me, but I will know I tried.
Maybe there is room for a self run coop, or it has been discussed somer smaller closed networks of like minded niche subjects.
You don't know what could happen until you try..........
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sigh... another Symbio thread locked. I can't understand why something so community related and positive creates such negative feelings in people. People that's a sign that it is worth fighting for??