Author Topic: A Conspiracy? (Read 22199 times)

ibogdan · « **Reply #25 on:** December 08, 2010, 11:24 »

That's what I believe too. 123rf never sold an image for 0.4$ but I'm tired of having great expectations from small stock sites. They want to screw us...whatever, until someday when I'll delete my images and that's all.

WarrenPrice · « **Reply #27 on:** December 09, 2010, 10:36 »

Quote from: alex123rf on December 08, 2010, 21:57

Hi All,

I shall explain pricing.

The scenario :
Our cheapest package = $15 for 15 credits.
Price per credit = $1 / credit
50% share to you = $0.50 / credit

If customer purchases an S size image from you, you'll get $0.50. Clear?
If the customer purchases an XXL image from you (5 credits), you'll get 5 x $0.50 = $2.50 for that image downloaded.

Of course, we have discounts, loyal customers, customer who want a big discount as they've been with us for a very long time, so we then discount them for bulk purchases. Nevertheless, we will go through the same calculations and contributors will get 50% of the effective credit price.

So where does the $0.20/credit come from? These credits come from our PROMOTIONAL ACTIVITIES such as the case of giving away CREDITS to prospective clients whom we think require a bit of a test drive on the 123RF system before they make their first purchase. A demo if you like, we give these out at our discretion. The client DID NOT PAY for these credits, it's given to them courtesy of 123RF.com.

Therefore, seeing as 123RF is giving away these credits, it comes out from our Advertising and Promotions Budget and there is a cost attached to it - 20 cents per credit given away. I do hope you'll see this a bonus from your business partner 123RF as the prospective client did not pay for them in the first place.

As I have maintained many times before, 123RF Limited is running a business, we are not here to give away to charity nor as some have eloquently put it - "screw" our contributors.

Thank you for maintaining your objectivity on this matter. If there are any questions, you can always email us : [email protected]

P/S - Forums were closed because we decided to shift to Facebook. They have excellent searchable threads there.

Alex

First, Alex, I would like to say that this thread got very convoluted. It started as tongue-in-cheek humor and was accepted in that vein by many responders. Then came the question about commission rates. I too responded to that, having received a startling 20 cent commission on the only one of my pictures that 123rf has sold as extended license.
As stated earlier in this thread, I had emailed support, questioning the pricing. I was ignored. I posted the problem here after seeing a similar query from ibogdan. Finally, after seeing your response here, I received an email in response to my query. The email was a cut-and-paste of your pricing explanation in this thread.

I do appreciate that you have taken the time to explain your marketing and advertising strategy in this public forum. I'm sure that it is interesting to everyone. I do not, however, believe that it is accurate. The norm seems to be 36 cents. I think there is another flaw in your approach. That image that you offered for FREE is the same one that sold to someone as a P-EL, a $14 commission for me. I hope that buyer doesn't see that he was charged a considerably higher price for a FREE image.

And, a gray area here is the policy of offering FREE images. Did I agree to giving my images away; even for marketing and advertising? Especially for marketing and advertising -- isn't that an EL?

Again, thank you, Alex. I sincerely appreciate the frank and open explanation of the pricing structure.

PS: I would have been more specific in an email but will defer to your choice of forums.

dirkr · « **Reply #28 on:** December 09, 2010, 10:50 »

Quote from: alex123rf on December 08, 2010, 21:57

Hi All,

I shall explain pricing.

The scenario :
Our cheapest package = $15 for 15 credits.
Price per credit = $1 / credit
50% share to you = $0.50 / credit

If customer purchases an S size image from you, you'll get $0.50. Clear?
If the customer purchases an XXL image from you (5 credits), you'll get 5 x $0.50 = $2.50 for that image downloaded.

Of course, we have discounts, loyal customers, customer who want a big discount as they've been with us for a very long time, so we then discount them for bulk purchases. Nevertheless, we will go through the same calculations and contributors will get 50% of the effective credit price.

Those discounts seem to be the norm rather than the exception.

The example you give above is your smallest credit package, i.e. the one with the highest per credit cost. The biggest package costs only $0.68 per credit (according to you website), which results in a contributor share of $0.34.
Nevertheless, today I had two downloads, a small (two credits) that netted me $0.65, a XL (four credits) that netted me $1.17.
So these credits did cost the customer 65 cents or 58.5 cents each, well below the lowest advertised rate.

Such high discounts from a already low price (the same sizes cost a lot more at most competitors) are not encouraging. I'd rather see prices go up.

Quote from: alex123rf on December 08, 2010, 21:57

P/S - Forums were closed because we decided to shift to Facebook. They have excellent searchable threads there.

Alex

There are still many people (me included) who don't want to deal with Facebook. In my mind that's a bad decision - but it's your business.

ibogdan · « **Reply #29 on:** December 09, 2010, 11:04 »

Interesting point, dirkr. Almost two years I considered 123rf one of the best and loyal stock sites but recently I began to doubt this fact more and more. And yes, lately they took weird decisions (in my opinion), setting a new minimum resolution for images (first 8mp and then lowered to 6mp which indeed is a little high considering other major stock sites accepting 2 or 3 mp) and switching their forum to Facebook. I wonder how many active users on the 123rf forum are still active on FB discussions.
But anyway, like dirkr said, it's your business..

LE: I just checked the discussions on Facebook, seems that nobody is active.

donding · « **Reply #30 on:** December 09, 2010, 11:36 »

Quote from: ibogdan on December 09, 2010, 11:04

Interesting point, dirkr. Almost two years I considered 123rf one of the best and loyal stock sites but recently I began to doubt this fact more and more. And yes, lately they took weird decisions (in my opinion), setting a new minimum resolution for images (first 8mp and then lowered to 6mp which indeed is a little high considering other major stock sites accepting 2 or 3 mp) and switching their forum to Facebook. I wonder how many active users on the 123rf forum are still active on FB discussions.
But anyway, like dirkr said, it's your business..

LE: I just checked the discussions on Facebook, seems that nobody is active.

The facebook concern by many contributors here has been raised here before and has fallen on deaf ears. Many people don't join facebook simply because of the security issues. Watch the news and that would explain why. I don't understand why they insist on making facebook their forum. No one wants their private information put out there for all to see. In my opinion they should respect their contributors concerns.

pancaketom · « **Reply #31 on:** December 09, 2010, 11:53 »

Facebook is not an acceptable place to run your forums in my opinion unless you are Facebook. In fact I think it is a really lousy one.

So as I understand this a number of credits were given out for free as a promotion and it was decided that when they are used we would get .20 for each one used?

Can you give us an idea of how many credits were given out? (order of magnitude).

--=Tom

rubyroo · « **Reply #32 on:** December 09, 2010, 12:12 »

Just to add that I also avoid Facebook. Joined up once, but pulled out over security issues. No intention of re-joining.

alex123rf · « **Reply #33 on:** December 09, 2010, 23:20 »

Hi All,

We don't give away free images - we didn't choose any specific image to be free and then give it away. We give away free credits to select prospective clients, so far the response has been encouraging and we have no plans to drop this as a marketing and promotion activity. Some prospective clients we give less, some we give more.

Yes, I agree, we'd like to see the prices go up too, but we need to remain competitive and it's not an overnight decision.

36 cents is the price per download for subscriptions, for credits it's an even split right down the middle. As I have said, sometimes, people do get better than advertised discounts as they are purchasing well more than 7400 credits. Wouldn't you as a consumer want better rates if you're prepared to buy more and buy big? Same logic applies.

We're doing everything to ensure that your earnings on 123RF.com continue to grow and it's all part of our A&P activities.

Thank you very much for your understanding.

Alex.

Microstock Posts · « **Reply #34 on:** December 10, 2010, 09:51 »

Quote from: alex123rf on December 09, 2010, 23:20

Hi All,

We don't give away free images - we didn't choose any specific image to be free and then give it away. We give away free credits to select prospective clients,

Is Mark Zuckerberg one of them?

WarrenPrice · « **Reply #35 on:** December 10, 2010, 10:18 »

oooops... double post

WarrenPrice · « **Reply #36 on:** December 10, 2010, 10:21 »

Quote from: alex123rf on December 09, 2010, 23:20

Hi All,

We don't give away free images - we didn't choose any specific image to be free and then give it away. We give away free credits to select prospective clients, so far the response has been encouraging and we have no plans to drop this as a marketing and promotion activity. Some prospective clients we give less, some we give more.

Yes, I agree, we'd like to see the prices go up too, but we need to remain competitive and it's not an overnight decision.

36 cents is the price per download for subscriptions, for credits it's an even split right down the middle. As I have said, sometimes, people do get better than advertised discounts as they are purchasing well more than 7400 credits. Wouldn't you as a consumer want better rates if you're prepared to buy more and buy big? Same logic applies.

We're doing everything to ensure that your earnings on 123RF.com continue to grow and it's all part of our A&P activities.

Thank you very much for your understanding.

Alex.

Then, will you offer contributors the option to NOT participate in the giveaway of their images?

lisafx · « **Reply #37 on:** December 10, 2010, 12:19 »

Quote from: WarrenPrice on December 10, 2010, 10:21

We don't give away free images - we didn't choose any specific image to be free and then give it away. We give away free credits to select prospective clients, so far the response has been encouraging and we have no plans to drop this as a marketing and promotion activity. Some prospective clients we give less, some we give more.

Other sites that give away free credits still pay contributors for the downloads.

WarrenPrice · « **Reply #38 on:** December 10, 2010, 13:00 »

Quote from: lisafx on December 10, 2010, 12:19

Quote from: WarrenPrice on December 10, 2010, 10:21

We don't give away free images - we didn't choose any specific image to be free and then give it away. We give away free credits to select prospective clients, so far the response has been encouraging and we have no plans to drop this as a marketing and promotion activity. Some prospective clients we give less, some we give more.

Other sites that give away free credits still pay contributors for the downloads.

Free Credits vs Free Images is strictly spin, Lisa. I think Alex has been taking Spin Lessons from Serban at Dreamstime.

Sorry, Serban, but you know you are the best.

dirkr · « **Reply #39 on:** December 10, 2010, 13:18 »

Quote from: lisafx on December 10, 2010, 12:19

Quote from: WarrenPrice on December 10, 2010, 10:21

We don't give away free images - we didn't choose any specific image to be free and then give it away. We give away free credits to select prospective clients, so far the response has been encouraging and we have no plans to drop this as a marketing and promotion activity. Some prospective clients we give less, some we give more.

Other sites that give away free credits still pay contributors for the downloads.

As I understand it they do pay us - just at a drastically reduced rate of $0,20 per credit.
And no, I don't agree with that. These are essentially marketing costs and marketing is one of the generic tasks of a stock agency that should be paid from the agencies share of the revenues. (I know, paying 50% of the sales price makes 123RF one of the better paying agencies percentage-wise. But still, their 50% share should be enough to pay for their expenses including any marketing offers. Else their business is (cough) unsustainable.)

Microstock Posts · « **Reply #41 on:** December 12, 2010, 23:18 »

Quote from: alex123rf on December 12, 2010, 23:00

I was hoping that the community would be more appreciative?

hahahaha!

I'm not opposed to free credits being given to prospective clients if it has the desired effect. My sales on 123rf have significantly increased over the past few months and I'm not uploading much. 123rf always seem to be trying to push for more buyers and more sales. I wish I could get that same impression from BS.

WarrenPrice · « **Reply #42 on:** December 13, 2010, 11:07 »

Quote from: alex123rf on December 12, 2010, 23:00

Hi All,

Free images ==> You get 0, nothing, not a single CENT from any download.
Free credits given to Prospective clients ==> You get $0.20 / credit downloaded.

Give away according to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/giveaway

give·a·way (gv-w)
n. Informal
...
2. Something given away at no charge, especially a premium.
...

Fact: 123RF.com gaveaway credits for clients to test drive the site as part of our marketing campaigns. Similar to test driving a car before you decide to buy - if you like it, buy it! Similar logic applies. Mind you that these downloads are being paid for at $0.20 per credit downloaded it comes out from our A&P - why would we want to give this money to another less effective 3rd party when we can keep the money in the community? It's good for the community, you get some money for downloads that you wouldn't normally get when people are not test driving the site.

We do not force contributors to giveaway any downloads for FREE. We also do not insult you by asking, "Your image has not landed a sale since 1 year ago, would you consider giving it away for free?"

No - We do not have any feature to opt out from this "giveaway" because it really isn't a giveaway.

P/S - I don't spin anything, everything that I have told you, has been truthful, honest and transparent. I was hoping that the community would be more appreciative?

Oh yes, and thank you!

Alex.

Fact: Cars taken for a test drive at a dealership belong to the dealership. Our images do NOT belong to you.
That, Alex, is not just "spin," it is "twisted" logic.

As for "forcing" the giveaway, what the heck would you call it? You did not ask first.
We also do not insult you by asking, "Your image has not landed a sale since 1 year ago, would you consider giving it away for free?"
I am more insulted that you did not bother to ask; you just TOOK an image that sold for less than a year ago for an Extended License and gave it away.
Using your logic, the 20 cents was not for the image, it was for the free credits.

As for Transparency; Bull Dookey!!!

You took down the forum to keep from listening to objections; you ignored my email; and then, when you saw complaints in a "Transparent" forum, you rushed in to put your spin on a totally deceitful scheme.

And your pay scale ... it is more confusing than trying to navigate your site. I never know if the downloaded image was a "blog" "print" "large" "small" "subscription."
That certainly isn't very apparent ... and far from transparent. How are the FREE images licensed to prospective buyers? Or, do you even bother to license them?

I've made several bad decisions, Alex, in trying to navigate the microstock world; one was deleting a portfolio from an arrogant site. I regretted that and may regret deleting my insignificant portfolio from 123rf. But, if there is no other option I will protect my images. They are not Free.

Thank you for allowing us to speak openly.

pancaketom · « **Reply #43 on:** December 13, 2010, 11:56 »

Well, I don't feel that what 123RF did was all that unreasonable. Basically they gave away a bunch of credits as a promotion and we get .20 for each one used on our images. Now I could perhaps quibble over if .20 is the right amount, and how many of these credits they actually gave out, but as far as I know their use still follows all the restrictions for regular credits etc. It is just a marketing tool.

I do appreciate Alex coming on here and explaining this to us, as we can be a rough crowd (myself included usually). Thanks for that, and I hope the marketing works and sales go up.

--=Tom

alex123rf · « **Reply #44 on:** December 13, 2010, 21:25 »

Hi Everyone,

There are of course, supporters and detractors at every site, no one site is perfect. Your portfolio is your portfolio and the rights to your images belong to you, the door is always open - what ever choice you choose is yours to make, and so are your opinions.

I do hope you'll reconsider but our decision still stands. It remains an effective and equitable way for us to market our site in this manner, and we have no plans to change an effective campaign.

Thanks for your time with us and we wish you all the best in your present and future endeavors.

Alex
for 123RF.com

rubyroo · « **Reply #45 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:04 »

I'm considering stopping uploading to 123RF too... mainly because my most recent batches have had an acceptance rate of 90+% at iStock, Fotolia - only just under 90% at the other two in the big four; 100% at Alamy.... and yet only about 10% acceptance rate at 123RF. I'm so confused by that, I'm not sure I can be bothered any more. But I also agree that we should be consulted before our images are given away for free. AFAIK, all the other agencies give us the choice. It's just a matter of respect for our work and our copyright-holder status.

WarrenPrice · « **Reply #46 on:** December 14, 2010, 09:25 »

Quote from: alex123rf on December 13, 2010, 21:25

Hi Everyone,

There are of course, supporters and detractors at every site, no one site is perfect. Your portfolio is your portfolio and the rights to your images belong to you, the door is always open - what ever choice you choose is yours to make, and so are your opinions.

I do hope you'll reconsider but our decision still stands. It remains an effective and equitable way for us to market our site in this manner, and we have no plans to change an effective campaign.

Thanks for your time with us and we wish you all the best in your present and future endeavors.

Alex
for 123RF.com

I'm sure you are aware, Alex, It was done before you posted this. What I don't understand is why it is so difficult to have my images removed. Just had an email (looks like it could be a form letter?) having me send another email with more information. Why is it so difficult to understand that I want my portfolio deleted? And, why does the "form letter" threaten to keep my balance?

Adios,
Warren Price

ibogdan · « **Reply #47 on:** December 17, 2010, 19:47 »

1$ for a MH (mega high) sale? Sorry, but that's way too low! I notice my commissions are lower day by day.

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Author Topic: A Conspiracy? (Read 22199 times)

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