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Poll

Alamy contributor: Do you submit your micro images to the RF collection at Alamy?

Yes
61 (74.4%)
No
21 (25.6%)

Total Members Voted: 73

Author Topic: Alamy contributors: Are you submitting micro images to Alamy?  (Read 28174 times)

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Slovenian

« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2011, 14:04 »
0
So much talk about micro and macro images. But what's the difference, really? Could someone enlighten me, illustrate it for me? Not making fun or anything, just asking same newbie questions. I did go through Alamy and Getty and did find photos to be a bit different, I'd say a bit more natural and when it comes to RM, really conceptual or even arty. And I didn't find many photos with punchy colors (vetta style) either. But that alone can't be it, these are just more or less minor differences


steheap

  • Author of best selling "Get Started in Stock"

« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2011, 09:18 »
0
Quote
So much talk about micro and macro images. But what's the difference, really?

I've struggled with that difference. It is clear that there are licensing choices that companies (and the photographer can make), but I don't think that is the same as "micro" and "macro." Wikipedia defines microstock as:
Quote
What defines a company as a microstock photography company is that they (1) source their images almost exclusively via the Internet, (2) do so from a wider range of photographers than the traditional stock agencies (including a willingness to accept images from "amateurs" and hobbyists), and (3) sell their images at a very low rate (anywhere from $.20 - $10) for a royalty-free (RF) image

However, the point I wanted to make was slightly different and it goes back to the discussion a few posts back about the apparently new line in the Alamy terms and conditions where they state that the license should be the same as the license offered for similar images on other stock sites.

I was posing a question on a different thread about copyright of a statue - we all agreed it was complicated, although there are some documents that I am going to plough through to get to the answer. But, assuming I hadn't done that and just uploaded to Shutterstock et al, some of the sites would have accepted it and others would have rejected because of no property release (as has happened). I then go to Alamy and complete their upload form where I am specifically asked if the image needs a property release and if I have one. As I am not 100% sure, I say that I think it needs one and I don't have one. That defaults the image to RM. Bottom line - even though I may think I have done some research and am "sort of" sure that it doesn't still have copyright, the subject is so complex that no photographer can be really sure, so I err on the side of caution with Alamy. I then end up, with no ulterior motive, with the file as RF on some sites and RM on Alamy.

Steve

« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2011, 11:28 »
0
" I then end up, with no ulterior motive, with the file as RF on some sites and RM on Alamy."

But that isn't what you asked in your survey. Your survey asks specificaly for RF rather than RM. You would likely have seen completely different results had you asked if people submit their RF images as RM on Alamy. I certainly don't.

« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2011, 11:29 »
0
OK, nvm, I just noticed it wasn't your survey. Sorry.

RacePhoto

« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2011, 23:36 »
0
For me it has almost nothing to do with dual marketing, although I don't want to compete with myself when I get $80 commission on Alamy and 25c to 50c on Micro. Anyone can sell at multiple sites if they wish and find they are also wasting time on Alamy because buyers aren't living in a closet and do search for better prices?

The question for me is, do I want to waste time competing with myself and will the same images that sell on micro actually sell on Alamy? Maybe some do, but they are different buyers and a different market, so no I just don't bother.


So, 18 says "yes", and 5 says "no". Very surprised by the poll results so far. I thought most people were against it as I've read many posts over time encouraging not to submit micro images to Alamy. Maybe these people have been more sound than others and I've just misunderstood the situation.
Think I'm going to start reading their agreement and consider selling my images there

« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2011, 01:04 »
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I agree with RacePhoto about not wanting to compete with oneself.
A while back, I was speaking with someone who had a lovely conceptual image zoomed on Alamy and then downloaded on a micro. Though the 2 events might have been unrelated, the micro sale was not happy news.

Carl

  • Carl Stewart, CS Productions
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2011, 06:18 »
0
If you're selling an image as RM on one site, and RF on another, you're likely to encounter legal problems.  RM goes with the image, not the site.  A possible and hypothetical scenario:  I'm a buyer, and I want a particular image, but I don't have the budget to hire a photographer, model, MUA, stylist, etc.  I don't want an exclusive, but neither do I want to use an image that has been used or that could be used by one of my competitors, so I look through a RM collection, find just the right image that fits that criteria, and I purchase the rights to that image in a way that precludes that image from being used in a similar fashion (i.e., that image can't be used in association with a competitor's product).  Later, I discover that the same image was purchased and used on a RF basis by a competitor.  I'm furious because the image was presented to me under false pretenses, so I sue everyone involved - the RM site, the RF site, the photographer, and anyone else who even remotely could be held responsible or accountable.  I have a strong case to present in court, and I'm seeking punitive damages plus compensation for lost income, lost market share, attorneys' fees, etc.  As a photographer, if I were to offer an image as RM, I certainly wouldn't offer it as RF on another site because of just such a likely scenario, and I would limit the RM image(s) to one site.  How could the rights be tracked and managed otherwise?

« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2011, 08:25 »
0
Lately, my RF sales on Alamy are almost the same royalties as on the Micros.

Regardless of what Alamy pricing is, for my images they ALWAYS offer steep discounts (up to 80%), so even for medium sized RF sales, I get $10.

Maybe that's the Micros effect, but hey, at least I pocketed those $10 that I might have not gotten at all. Who knows.

steheap

  • Author of best selling "Get Started in Stock"

« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2011, 09:23 »
0
Quote
If you're selling an image as RM on one site, and RF on another, you're likely to encounter legal problems.  RM goes with the image, not the site.  A possible and hypothetical scenario:  I'm a buyer, and I want a particular image, but I don't have the budget to hire a photographer, model, MUA, stylist, etc.  I don't want an exclusive, but neither do I want to use an image that has been used or that could be used by one of my competitors, so I look through a RM collection, find just the right image that fits that criteria, and I purchase the rights to that image in a way that precludes that image from being used in a similar fashion (i.e., that image can't be used in association with a competitor's product).  Later, I discover that the same image was purchased and used on a RF basis by a competitor.  I'm furious because the image was presented to me under false pretenses, so I sue everyone involved - the RM site, the RF site, the photographer, and anyone else who even remotely could be held responsible or accountable.  I have a strong case to present in court, and I'm seeking punitive damages plus compensation for lost income, lost market share, attorneys' fees, etc.  As a photographer, if I were to offer an image as RM, I certainly wouldn't offer it as RF on another site because of just such a likely scenario, and I would limit the RM image(s) to one site.  How could the rights be tracked and managed otherwise?

Is that correct? If I sold an image as RM on Alamy, and the same image as RM on Panthermedia, then there is no linkage in terms of managing usage between those two sites. I don't believe that the basic RM license on Alamy allows anyone to purchase in a way that the image could not be used by a competitor say. If it was exclusive RM on Alamy, then OK, but not in any other circumstances.

Steve

lisafx

« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2011, 09:26 »
0
Lately, my RF sales on Alamy are almost the same royalties as on the Micros.

Regardless of what Alamy pricing is, for my images they ALWAYS offer steep discounts (up to 80%), so even for medium sized RF sales, I get $10.

So true!  Makes the rest of this discussion pretty much moot. 

ShadySue

« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2011, 09:36 »
0
Quote
If you're selling an image as RM on one site, and RF on another, you're likely to encounter legal problems.  RM goes with the image, not the site.  A possible and hypothetical scenario:  I'm a buyer, and I want a particular image, but I don't have the budget to hire a photographer, model, MUA, stylist, etc.  I don't want an exclusive, but neither do I want to use an image that has been used or that could be used by one of my competitors, so I look through a RM collection, find just the right image that fits that criteria, and I purchase the rights to that image in a way that precludes that image from being used in a similar fashion (i.e., that image can't be used in association with a competitor's product).  Later, I discover that the same image was purchased and used on a RF basis by a competitor.  I'm furious because the image was presented to me under false pretenses, so I sue everyone involved - the RM site, the RF site, the photographer, and anyone else who even remotely could be held responsible or accountable.  I have a strong case to present in court, and I'm seeking punitive damages plus compensation for lost income, lost market share, attorneys' fees, etc.  As a photographer, if I were to offer an image as RM, I certainly wouldn't offer it as RF on another site because of just such a likely scenario, and I would limit the RM image(s) to one site.  How could the rights be tracked and managed otherwise?

Is that correct? If I sold an image as RM on Alamy, and the same image as RM on Panthermedia, then there is no linkage in terms of managing usage between those two sites. I don't believe that the basic RM license on Alamy allows anyone to purchase in a way that the image could not be used by a competitor say. If it was exclusive RM on Alamy, then OK, but not in any other circumstances.

Steve
I believe that, as content does not need to be exclusive to Alamy, they will contact you to ask if any exclusive RM terms can be granted. If the sale goes through (I once had urgent emails asking about a particular image, but the sale didn't go through), it is then up to you to make sure than any other outlet you sell the image knows about any exclusive rights you sold.

« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2011, 09:52 »
0
Quote
If you're selling an image as RM on one site, and RF on another, you're likely to encounter legal problems.  RM goes with the image, not the site.  A possible and hypothetical scenario:  I'm a buyer, and I want a particular image, but I don't have the budget to hire a photographer, model, MUA, stylist, etc.  I don't want an exclusive, but neither do I want to use an image that has been used or that could be used by one of my competitors, so I look through a RM collection, find just the right image that fits that criteria, and I purchase the rights to that image in a way that precludes that image from being used in a similar fashion (i.e., that image can't be used in association with a competitor's product).  Later, I discover that the same image was purchased and used on a RF basis by a competitor.  I'm furious because the image was presented to me under false pretenses, so I sue everyone involved - the RM site, the RF site, the photographer, and anyone else who even remotely could be held responsible or accountable.  I have a strong case to present in court, and I'm seeking punitive damages plus compensation for lost income, lost market share, attorneys' fees, etc.  As a photographer, if I were to offer an image as RM, I certainly wouldn't offer it as RF on another site because of just such a likely scenario, and I would limit the RM image(s) to one site.  How could the rights be tracked and managed otherwise?

Is that correct? If I sold an image as RM on Alamy, and the same image as RM on Panthermedia, then there is no linkage in terms of managing usage between those two sites. I don't believe that the basic RM license on Alamy allows anyone to purchase in a way that the image could not be used by a competitor say. If it was exclusive RM on Alamy, then OK, but not in any other circumstances.

Steve

Here is my 2 cents about the definition of RM (please, anyone correct me if I'm wrong):

RM does NOT mean exclusivity is implied.

RM (or RF) exclusive uses can only be guaranteed if the image is only offered by one agency - UNLESS the following example happens:
An image is offered as RM (non-exclusive) on Alamy but a buyer wants the image exclusively. Alamy Member Services will contact you and ask if it's possible to license this image exclusively, which means Alamy wants to know if you have uploaded this image to another RM agency or if you already licensed it RM yourself already.

If you are able to disable the image at other agencies for the term required and don't license it yourself, you can then tell Alamy to go ahead an license it as exclusive.

Alamy offers two RM licenses - exclusive and non-exclusive.  

At other agencies RM means non-exclusive or exclusive depending on their terms of agreement.

Offering non-exclusive RM at various agencies is perfectly fine. Only if a buyer requires exclusivity you might get the run-around.

RacePhoto

« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2011, 01:26 »
0
That seems to be true and the case, however, since I sell Editorial on Alamy and RF on Micro, I don't really have the same situation.

Someone who puts Micro style shots up on Alamy, should expect to get the same value from them for the same license and materials. There's no magic there. :)

I put up one large RF image on Alamy and got the usual $200 download, $120 commission. I wonder if I should have uploaded it to Micro and collected my $3 from four agencies. Oh Whoopee, that's exciting.

Even if the coincidence of views on Alamy and sales on micro are true, there's no way to prove it. I just figure if it's good enough for Alamy, that's where it goes. If it's editorial/news it goes on Alamy. If it's smaller and RF, then it goes on Micro. I don't need to compete with myself, with my own images, by selling them for 1/20th of the price, and pennies for commission. As far as views and sales, I have sales on Alamy with no views, no zooms, no searches and no data except someone did find it and did buy a license. Fine with me, the measures data is just for information, not perfect and accurate.

Let me be frank. I'm not willing to sell out and work for spare change by putting up hundreds of images and years of work, to get some payback from micro. The agencies change the rules, change the commission, change anything they please, cancel promises and people are so hungry and owned by Microstock that they are afraid to stand up to the abuse. Oh can't quit, I depend on the income. Oh good, crowdsourcing has now driven commissions down to 15% and worse. I'm not willing to spend a three day weekend shooting from Sunrise to Sunset, driving hundreds of miles to get to events. Gain access to highly selective and restricted media credentials. Spend another night or two culling, editing, identifying and uploading this work?

All so I can sell the photos on some Microstock site and get a crummy quarter or maybe a dollar. (honest IS is still best at $1.50 per download average, and that's going down)

I'm still happier getting less sales volume and getting paid what I feel is a fair price for my work.

Don't get me wrong, sales for me on Alamy have also dropped in the last year. But one sale still beats four years income from a small Micro site.  :o

 
Lately, my RF sales on Alamy are almost the same royalties as on the Micros.

Regardless of what Alamy pricing is, for my images they ALWAYS offer steep discounts (up to 80%), so even for medium sized RF sales, I get $10.

Maybe that's the Micros effect, but hey, at least I pocketed those $10 that I might have not gotten at all. Who knows.

« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2011, 04:29 »
0
I fail to see the benefits of choosing RM over RF in any situation. If the image is not even exclusive when being sold as RM, then why pay more for restricted usage - RM - when you can get almost unlimited usage - RF - for less ? Never understood the concept of rights managed. When is it beneficial ? Makes no sense to me

RacePhoto

« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2011, 12:43 »
0
I fail to see the benefits of choosing RM over RF in any situation. If the image is not even exclusive when being sold as RM, then why pay more for restricted usage - RM - when you can get almost unlimited usage - RF - for less ? Never understood the concept of rights managed. When is it beneficial ? Makes no sense to me

Yes. The reason I do is Editorial which defaults to RM on Alamy. They could be RF but that's not the way it works. Once I click no model release, zap, it's RM Editorial there.

In case anyone has been watching the prices for RF and RM have been coming closer together on Alamy. Also the Micro prices and the discounted Alamy prices have been coming closer together. So cheap RF is cheap (or inexpensive?) everywhere. Things are becoming much more alike all over, so the former debate which I took the side of integrity, over selling out or trying to bilk buyers, is irrelevant now.

Still the example changes when someone here is the buyer or the one paying for something, instead of the one selling it. Odd isn't that?

Person goes to store A and buys a new tent. Pays $399 because it's supposed to be good and the latest. Next week they see, identical tent on a website for $99. Now I want the ones arguing that buyers who can get the same images on Micro for subscriptions or $3 on demand are going to pay $240 for the same image on Alamy and not be pissed off at the artist? Also most semi-intelligent buyers know how to do a search or look at multiple sites and will but the same image from Micro if it's offered there, so then "artist" says, Alamy is crummy for sales, no one buys anything there and I have my best 500 Microstock images up there. Yeah, but "artist" also has those same 500 Microstock style images up on 10 - 20 sites, and the style of work is more suited for Micro than Alamy, so what's the obvious?

Different markets, different buyers much of the time, not just different pricing. Alamy has 24 million images. Consider the competition at a high level. And then add in competing with oneself based on price, there's not going to be a happy success story at the end of all this.  :D

Opinion, and that's why I don't compete with myself based on Micro pricing and image demands of buyers at the two sources, being different. I don't put the Micro RF on Alamy either. I don't see it being the right marketplace for those. Also I do pocket camera and snapshots on Micro, many are 4-6MP would never make it. Camera is not on the approved list. The choice is even easier.

ShadySue

« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2011, 05:13 »
0
I fail to see the benefits of choosing RM over RF in any situation. If the image is not even exclusive when being sold as RM, then why pay more for restricted usage - RM - when you can get almost unlimited usage - RF - for less ? Never understood the concept of rights managed. When is it beneficial ? Makes no sense to me

You would buy rights for an image if you didn't want your book cover to have the same photo as someone else's (posted on a different thread last week):
...
Similarly if you didn't want your calendar cover image to be the same as someone else's, or your photo used in an advert and also used in a rival's advert etc.
If you buy specific RM rights the photographer and agency has a reponsibility to assert that the image (and probably any 'significantly similar') has been used before in a conflicting use.
The more 'managed' you want your end usage to be, the more you pay. For example, you'd pay significantly more to buy rights to 'all uses, worldwide' for an image for five years than you would if you paid for 'advertisements, print, magazine, plumbing industry, Luxembourg, one month'.
It can have surprising benefits to the consumer too: a friend was trying to choose an itinerary for a trip to New Zealand and showed me that "all the different tour operators use mostly the same photos" (presumably sent out free by the New Zealand Tourist Board. She eventually chose one where the company showed 'different' images, not the  'obvious' ones most used.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 05:17 by ShadySue »

« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2011, 20:18 »
0
I do not put the same images on both Alamy and micro.
 

dbvirago

« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2011, 07:45 »
0
Revenue from last 3 sales at Alamy    $2.49
Revenue from last 3 sales at Bigstock $2.50

ShadySue

« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2011, 07:54 »
0
Revenue from last 3 sales at Alamy    $2.49
Is that novel use ... or ...?

dbvirago

« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2011, 08:47 »
0
yeah, those three were novel use. Between those and the $3-4 RFs, my average sale there has dropped from $194 to $65. Avg for last 12 is $22

lagereek

« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2011, 08:50 »
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Ibelieve there isnt much differance at all between amounts of RM and RF sales, pretty even, thats what I have heard. For me Alamy is producing better and better, just looked at my June stats and theres already 5, RF sales and some novelty. Uploading is easy and quite fun actually.

All in all they run their business in a professional way. Cant knock that. Slow payouts though.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 08:51 by lagereek »

Batman

« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2011, 10:55 »
0
Revenue from last 3 sales at Alamy    $2.49
Revenue from last 3 sales at Bigstock $2.50

Evidence that Micro and Alamy are getting closer and closer.  :) It all depends on what type of pictures you have for sale on both RF micro pictures will get RF micro prices.

« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2011, 20:29 »
0
Lately, my RF sales on Alamy are almost the same royalties as on the Micros.

Regardless of what Alamy pricing is, for my images they ALWAYS offer steep discounts (up to 80%), so even for medium sized RF sales, I get $10.

So true!  Makes the rest of this discussion pretty much moot. 

Normally I would jump on the "concur" bandwagon but this month has generated a lot of money for me (June=$1400).  Most months are less...sigh!

« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2012, 12:31 »
0
I have one RF image that Alamy licensed for me for $250 and then they turned around and licensed a similar one from the same shoot that very same month under the NU scheme for 83 cents. When that happens, I'm not the one a buyer should be angry at.
I think most buyers are sophisticated enough to know that they can shop around for images, so I don't think it's unethical when Alamy makes it clear that they will accept RF images that are on the micros. But you can't take an RF  image from the micros and put it on Alamy as RM. Allowing different licenses for the same image is wrong.  Alamy made that clear from day one (for me -  I started uploading there in 2007).

I experimented last year and took a couple of my RF images from Alamy and posted them on the micros - they are doing well for me on both - volume makes up for lower prices on the micros - but I don't allow ELs for them on sites that net me only a few dollars for an extended license after seeing them zoomed and then purchased elsewhere, which is why my experiment ended - Still, ,the experiment was a success netting me over $300 from a few of the images on the micros (and a bit more from the same ones on Alamy) - so I'm keeping that batch on both.

Since certain of my images sell well on both, I'm trying to shoot photos with the same the same feeling - just different subjects for each venue, with the better shots going to Alamy where I still get the occasional $250 RF sale - even ELs don't add up that fast on the micros.

I'm not giving up on the micros, though. I like that I can capture a good image with a handy point and shoot or even my iPhone and have somewhere to sell it. And when I put an Alamy-caliber image on the micros, it sells.

« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2012, 17:26 »
0
I believe that, as content does not need to be exclusive to Alamy, they will contact you to ask if any exclusive RM terms can be granted. If the sale goes through (I once had urgent emails asking about a particular image, but the sale didn't go through), it is then up to you to make sure than any other outlet you sell the image knows about any exclusive rights you sold.

right - i had this happen with DT - the buyer got an exclusive license from that day on, and the images were removed from other agencies that had them  - it was a $300 sale, so not hard to decide to remove it from RF


 

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