MicrostockGroup
Agency Based Discussion => Alamy.com => Topic started by: MetaStocker on October 22, 2012, 09:08
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On friday Alamy sent an email to all contributors telling us that from now on the image search will bring BY DEFAULT results picked from their (manually ?) edited selection while the other images will appear after the BestOf ones, that means 10-20 pages for common keywords !
There's a 20 pages thread in the Alamy forum :
http://www.alamy.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=14107 (http://www.alamy.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=14107)
Looks like a very cruel step taken by Alamy, this is gonna kill the business of so many photographers there, even the ones with tens of thousands images are reporting no sales since friday !
admin: edited subject to be more descriptive
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They should change their QC policy and stop accepting every snapshot instead of bringing new search based on someone's personal taste.
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They should change their QC policy and stop accepting every snapshot instead of bringing new search based on someone's personal taste.
With time new bold move they basically killed Alamy as a non-edited agency.
Now for every keyword you will soon get dozens of pages of BestOf, anything else will be irrilevant and never sell as the BestOf is now the default search option.
If before it was hard to make a sale over there now it will become impossible.
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"best of" is not the default search engine. Buyers are directed to the most appropriate search engine based on their buying pattern.
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Sounds like "popularity ranking" now has its icy grip of death around the neck of another agency.
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I saw the e-mail, but stuffed it in a folder as it didn't seem to having anything significant to say. But based on the length of the thread, it's certainly got some Alamy contributors stirred up.
I did a couple of searches just now, and the "best of" seems anything but. And as noted in the forum comments, the text at the end "End of Best Of. Everything else:" is breathtakingly bad - what were they thinking?
I guess I'm still not clear on whether something I have done in keywording my images plays any role in how things appear in this new search option.
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It's blindingly obvious that all the agencies are now drowning in a sea of poor-quality material and need a way forward.
It would be great if Alamy could actually say "we're biting the bullet and are going to actually look at the product we sell and decide what's good and what isn't, so we can present to customers on that basis" - like any ordinary retailer does with his products. But with 25 million unique products in stock, that's simply not possible. All they can possibly do is fall back on some variation of popularity-based ranking - which, as we know, is basically instant death to new images. It results in that casino-like situation where your image has to 'get lucky' and make a couple of sales very early, or it sinks into the depths forever.
Hope I'm wrong about this and that Alamy has some new spin on an old problem - or gives us a way to re-keyword our images to take advantage of the new system.
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In regards to editing their submission of what "should be" approved and what shouldn't it's a catch 22.
Previously Alamy posted "terrible" photos that sold for 5 figures because someone out there wanted exactly that. These images would have never made it into the collection if reviewers were to pick only the "best".
To me it appears that Getty actually went into the same direction with the Flickr move. They added substandard quality images and sold them for good money although many contributors had no clue what Getty is and how much an image is "worth".
I believe it's not so much about rejecting "bad" images but rather having a very good search algorithm.
The buyers need to have options presented that filter out the crap and find exactly what the buyer wants.
Of course this includes the contributors submitting correctly keyworded images.
This is where some leverage could be applied that reported images (and reviewed to be confirmed) for invalid keywords which would lead to lower search result rankings favoring honest contributors using correct keywords.
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even the ones with tens of thousands images are reporting no sales since friday !
A weekend without sales. That sounds scary. ::)
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It's blindingly obvious that all the agencies are now drowning in a sea of poor-quality material and need a way forward.
It would be great if Alamy could actually say "we're biting the bullet and are going to actually look at the product we sell and decide what's good and what isn't, so we can present to customers on that basis" - like any ordinary retailer does with his products. But with 25 million unique products in stock, that's simply not possible. All they can possibly do is fall back on some variation of popularity-based ranking - which, as we know, is basically instant death to new images. It results in that casino-like situation where your image has to 'get lucky' and make a couple of sales very early, or it sinks into the depths forever.
Hope I'm wrong about this and that Alamy has some new spin on an old problem - or gives us a way to re-keyword our images to take advantage of the new system.
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Exactly! spot on! they are basically drowning in it, poor quality, irrelevant material, spamming, etc. It really shows and in almost every search. Buyers, even if they dont care about quality must find it a nightmare. Its beginning to resemble a photography-class where all their material in hung up on the classroom wall, especially an evening class with introduction to PS elements.
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Exactly! spot on! they are basically drowning in it, poor quality, irrelevant material, spamming, etc. It really shows and in almost every search. Buyers, even if they dont care about quality must find it a nightmare.
So what's the answer? Wait until artificial intelligence research produces software that can judge the aesthetics and applicablity of a photo? That won't happen in 3 lifetimes, IMHO. Other than 'popularity' ranking, I don't know what the big agencies can do, except watch helplessly as newer agencies, with more carefully curated collections, slowly eat their lunch.
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Exactly! spot on! they are basically drowning in it, poor quality, irrelevant material, spamming, etc. It really shows and in almost every search. Buyers, even if they dont care about quality must find it a nightmare.
So what's the answer? Wait until artificial intelligence research produces software that can judge the aesthetics and applicablity of a photo? That won't happen in 3 lifetimes, IMHO. Other than 'popularity' ranking, I don't know what the big agencies can do, except watch helplessly as newer agencies, with more carefully curated collections, slowly eat their lunch.
They could first find out what most annoys their buyers :
is it heaps of similars all in a row - in which case they need to hide similars under one thumbnail.
is it anomalous spam - in which case they need to drop a bomb on the spammers.
Is it old images - automatically push the old images to the back of the search.
I think the easiest thing they could do is to start with the most popular searches and go through the first 5 or so pages of them and if something doesn't belong there move it down in the search. This could go a long way towards making the searches look good. If someone is searching back many pages then they expect to start seeing things that might not belong there.
I do agree that whatever site really gets a handle on this will move up a lot. Unfortunately from what I have seen in my very brief poking around with the Alamy edited selection they didn't do a very good job. My own sales there are sporadic enough that the fact that I have had no sales since then doesn't tell me anything.
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Exactly! spot on! they are basically drowning in it, poor quality, irrelevant material, spamming, etc. It really shows and in almost every search. Buyers, even if they dont care about quality must find it a nightmare.
So what's the answer? Wait until artificial intelligence research produces software that can judge the aesthetics and applicablity of a photo? That won't happen in 3 lifetimes, IMHO. Other than 'popularity' ranking, I don't know what the big agencies can do, except watch helplessly as newer agencies, with more carefully curated collections, slowly eat their lunch.
They could first find out what most annoys their buyers :
is it heaps of similars all in a row - in which case they need to hide similars under one thumbnail.
is it anomalous spam - in which case they need to drop a bomb on the spammers.
Is it old images - automatically push the old images to the back of the search.
Today's software could make some progress in cleaning up 'similars' although many would escape. Software might recognize 2 head shots of the same model against the same background. But is that fair, if one is laughing and one is crying?
Productive, meaningful and fair editing can only be done by qualified, knowledgeable people - i.e. expensive people. Not a pool of subcontracted, temporary reviewers with marginal English working off of checklists and paid by the numbers.
To do it right AND affordably would be a very slow, very long process. Might as well get started I guess.
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You simply can't trust this agency.
What's next ? This is unacceptable.
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You simply can't trust this agency.
What's next ? This is unacceptable.
Which agency/ies do you trust and find their behaviour acceptable?
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On friday Alamy sent an email to all contributors telling us that from now on the image search will bring BY DEFAULT results picked from their (manually ?) edited selection while the other images will appear after the BestOf ones, that means 10-20 pages for common keywords !
There's a 20 pages thread in the Alamy forum :
[url]http://www.alamy.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=14107[/url] ([url]http://www.alamy.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=14107[/url])
Looks like a very cruel step taken by Alamy, this is gonna kill the business of so many photographers there, even the ones with tens of thousands images are reporting no sales since friday !
This post is ridiculous, please check your facts then maybe you won't spread wrong information.
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I'm cursed with a degree in English with a specialization in creative writing....my interpretation of the "best of" portion of the email was different....
Best of – This option is specifically designed with the creative picture buyer in mind and is where Alamy’s creative imagery will stand out. This sort function combines the edited selection with customer data – this means images previously selected by our customers for that specific search. These ‘Best of’ images appear first and are then followed by the remaining images in relevancy order.
Our editors will continue to review the collection and as images are added and purchased, the idea is that the ‘Best of’ option will evolve.
Based on my read, "best of" is a combination of images selected for "best of" as well as images that have been previously licensed by agencies based in the "creative" market.
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On friday Alamy sent an email to all contributors telling us that from now on the image search will bring BY DEFAULT results picked from their (manually ?) edited selection while the other images will appear after the BestOf ones, that means 10-20 pages for common keywords !
There's a 20 pages thread in the Alamy forum :
[url]http://www.alamy.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=14107[/url] ([url]http://www.alamy.com/forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=14107[/url])
Looks like a very cruel step taken by Alamy, this is gonna kill the business of so many photographers there, even the ones with tens of thousands images are reporting no sales since friday !
This post is ridiculous, please check your facts then maybe you won't spread wrong information.
Could you clarify what is the "right information". I either didn't get the e-mail or it hit my spam filter. This sounds pretty worrisome to me. If you can offer clarification, Equus, it would be helpful.
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Lisa, here is the email....
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2v0e92h.jpg)
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As someone else has said, the BY DEFAULT is not correct. The search will in fact bring different results to different buyers, depending on their profile.
Also, someone JOKINGLY said that they had no sales since the new search came in, that is on Saturday and Sunday, so the new search wasn't working, but of course there are almost no sales at the weekend anyway.
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Thanks Ed, for posting that, and Equus for further explaining.
Reading it over, it doesn't seem like Armageddon has hit or anything. Buyers can choose which of those searches they want. It didn't seem to indicated that any of them would be the default, but I assume it would be relevancy unless specified otherwise.
I don't know if any of my stuff will qualify as "best of" but for those who are submitting the most creative imagery, that will be quite a boost in sales, I would imagine.
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It's not necessarily alarming in itself but hints at increased use of popularity ranking - in one form or another - in the future, as an attempt to replace 'junk' with files that at least have sold in the past. And also the start of a higher-priced collection, and the temptation to push it in the search.
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As someone else has said, the BY DEFAULT is not correct. The search will in fact bring different results to different buyers, depending on their profile.
Also, someone JOKINGLY said that they had no sales since the new search came in, that is on Saturday and Sunday, so the new search wasn't working, but of course there are almost no sales at the weekend anyway.
As sales seem to be reported at 02:30 BST iyou can have a sale recorded on a Saturday (from Friday). However, that same contributer claimed to be having sales coming in during today. I've never found a sale other than that 02:30 timing. (I don't mean I wait up every night. Sometimes I'm up anyway, and find the odd sale come in then. I look each morning if I wasn't up late. I've never noticed a file come in later in the day. I've heard others say the same, but also I've read that person talk about sales coming in during the day before too. Another Alamy mystery.
@Lisa: James' Video: http://www.alamy.com/blog/contributor/archive/2012/10/18/5162.aspx (http://www.alamy.com/blog/contributor/archive/2012/10/18/5162.aspx)
Incidentally, I've noticed a few of my 'test searches' are cleaner on 'relevant' today.
I see no difference in many searches between the creativity of many of the 'creative' files, nor can I see why James' special editors handpicked many of the images to be the alleged 'best'. Maybe that's just the searches I picked.
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if you're not logged in, BestOf is the default option.
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Best-of? its going to be interesting to see how they do this. Are they themselves going to chose whats "best-of" in every category or are they going after picture sales, i.e. downloads? cause in that case creative photography wont stand a chance.
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Best-of? its going to be interesting to see how they do this. Are they themselves going to chose whats "best-of" in every category or are they going after picture sales, i.e. downloads? cause in that case creative photography wont stand a chance.
If I understood the email correctly it'll be a mix of the two variables. Their own personal 'best-of' picks plus sales history.
This sort function combines the edited selection with customer data
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from the Alamy CEO blog :
http://www.alamy.com/blog/contributor/archive/2012/10/18/5162.aspx?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_content=&utm_campaign=Resend%20of%20Initial%20CI%20email&utm_term=Contributors (http://www.alamy.com/blog/contributor/archive/2012/10/18/5162.aspx?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_content=&utm_campaign=Resend%20of%20Initial%20CI%20email&utm_term=Contributors)
"This is the first step in a longer project to make Alamy the number one choice for the creative industries. We will continue to add new creative content and functionality to our site and in the New Year, we will be unveiling a new look and feel."
So, it seems he's telling us they're finally downplaying their editorial business and driving full force into becoming a creative agency ? What do they have in store for the end of the year ? he's hinting about a new look and new buttons and new options, all designed for Creative buyers, not at all for editorials ...
He also hint that it's just the tip of the iceberg and the project is long term and carefully crafted to target Creatives.
I can't see any good news for us into editorials from all this, and this grand plan sounds too much ambititious for such a small fish like Alamy.
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^^^Is there any reason why they can't keep their editorial buyers happy and add a lot more non-editorial buyers? I think they needed to do something and it could be good, if they do it right.
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^^^Is there any reason why they can't keep their editorial buyers happy and add a lot more non-editorial buyers? I think they needed to do something and it could be good, if they do it right.
That's what I was thinking. They are 2 completely different markets so one shouldn't affect the other.
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On the +side, being Alamy we can be fairly confident that there is not some hidden agenda. They have a history of being straight both with contributors and with their staff. They seem to genuinely be in the business of selling pictures. Rather than being about trading companies, options, debt, dividends.
I think they deserve to be supported. And they are a photographer-friendly company that even beleaguered IS exclusives can get behind (whilst they cling to the trust-tree waiting to hear that their E+ pictures are never going to be ported to Getty !)
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They seem to genuinely be in the business of selling pictures. Rather than being about trading companies, options, debt, dividends.
+ 1
In the end, this is going to outweigh every other factor.
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I wish they'd stick with what they do best - editorial - though I have had a lot of "creative" sales there too.
I'm not sure how this will play out but if it gets us better prices that's a plus. Lately I've had some RM sales there that were lower than the micros - but also some full price. Sales have been steady for me this year - really picked up but nothing since the change in ranking. I have several creative photos that have sold multiple times so hoping that gives them a bump. Lots of travel/editorial multiples too but guessing the editorial buyers will not be using the "best of" function.
As always with Alamy we'll have to wait and see how it plays out. If it's a disaster, they'll change it. Something they are good about.
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Other than the slow payment process, I have no problems with Alamy. And I find it interesting that when a photographer talks about "crap," "garbage," and "inferior quality," he's usually talking about "all of the images except mine."
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Other than the slow payment process, I have no problems with Alamy. And I find it interesting that when a photographer talks about "crap," "garbage," and "inferior quality," he's usually talking about "all of the images except mine."
Of course and I agree with your entire post. When do we write the follow-up book on that theory, "I'm OK, You're Not!" ::)
I was going to say, if my sales go up, it's a good plan, if they go down, then the plan is a failure. Of course only base on MY sales, nothing to do with the rest of the world. :D
Oh and I'm not even bothered by the "slow" payment process. Alamy pays fast, the buyers are the problem.