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Author Topic: For those who keep their backups on CD's/DVD's  (Read 11746 times)

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« on: January 02, 2009, 17:51 »
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Recently I bought some HDD's to save my data (backups, photos, music, movies, etc.) and I decided to copy all my existing CD's and DVD's onto HDD and throw away the disks to keep everything in one place and to get rid of the increasing backup DVD stack.

Guess what. I can't read half of the disks written 1-3 years ago!!! I knew that the design life of a CD is 20-100years but the actual 2-3 years is dangerously low.

I tried to read the CD's in question in many drives, the reading always stops at the same percent. I have CD's which aluminum foil (the actual data carrier) comes down so no way to recover the data but 99% of the CD's has prefect, unscratched surface, those simply doesn't read. Most of them is eProformance so don't buy this brand.

I decided to move on HDD backups (instead of DVD's), so all my data is stored twice on 2 separate HDD's. These are external, USB HDD's.


zymmetricaldotcom

« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2009, 18:04 »
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From my years in my first startup as a young'un which was a short-run CD duping firm, it brings a tear to my eye to remember all the nuances of CD technicalities which were drilled into me by fire: moist tissue (or preferably microfiber), start from the center and wipe radially outwards. Works wonders. :)        I'd be very surprised if the media was so degraded after such a short period, even with the crappiest Taiwan import brands.  If that doesn't work, try a CD/DVD drive from a different brand. It is a little known fact but disc manufacturers have long had inside deals with drive manufacturers for compatibility issues. Some discs that work with Matsushita won't work with Sony as well etc.

Otherwise there's a bunch of digital recovery solutions out there starting with http://www.isobuster.com/unreadable-cd-dvd-recovery.php. Just like with HDD's, there is very rarely no absolute dead-end to recover the data, it's just a matter of effort and cost.

p.s. a single physical HDD failure rate is unacceptable for any mission-critical as we call it. You should check out www.bucketexplorer.com and save your data on professionally maintained RAID arrays, in addition to any local backups.

hali

« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2009, 18:06 »
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Actually I learned my lesson about using named brands some 10 years ago when some of my music disc backed up 3 years prior on the cheapies did not read at all.
Since then, I have been playing my thousand odd music cds as well as my backup cds and dvds and glad to say, all seems well.
At the price that bulk cds and dvds are , it's almost senseless not to stick with named brands.
Do I really worry much about archival longevity? Well, I haven't looked at any of my negs and slides from the 70s, 80s and early 90's. So perharps, who knows,
the digital images I backed up nowadays may not be so important to me in 30 years time. ie. if I live to be that old  ;D

« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2009, 18:29 »
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Media quality and storage conditions should not be neglected.  Protecting them from humidity and heat is important.  I don't remember ever having an old CD that was not working.  I have recently discarded my Zipdrive, and before that I checked each zip disk, all were in good conditions (I didn't check all files, but they were all read and I checked a few files at random).

Regards,
Adelaide

Tuilay

« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2009, 18:43 »
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Oh my goodness Adelaide, zip drive...
now that's old media for you. Yes completely forgot about them. It's true too,
last time I checked my Amiga zipdisks they were all still working well. Yes, if you can believe it, Amiga ... now that's old !  ;D ;D ;D
No truer words can be said, as Adelaide just mentioned... proper storage is a must .
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 18:45 by Tuilay »

« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2009, 18:44 »
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I had heard before about refreshing your back ups ie copying CDs/DVDs/HDs onto fresh media every few years (Just bought a 1 TB today to back up my back ups).

Just shows how fragile our technology is, compared to old skool carving things in stone. Not sure how many stone tablets I would need to carve out 1 TB in binary on stone tablets not to mention how many eons it would take to carve.

« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2009, 18:46 »
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I had heard before about refreshing your back ups ie copying CDs/DVDs/HDs onto fresh media every few years (Just bought a 1 TB today to back up my back ups).

Yes, I ahve heard of that recommendation too.

Speaking of old things, I still have some IBM punch cards.  ;D

And I probably still have the cassette tape in which I recorded programs from my Casio scientific calculator.

But I am not old, I was a prodigy. ;)

Regards,
Adelaide

Tuilay

« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2009, 18:53 »
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I had heard before about refreshing your back ups ie copying CDs/DVDs/HDs onto fresh media every few years (Just bought a 1 TB today to back up my back ups).

Just shows how fragile our technology is, compared to old skool carving things in stone. Not sure how many stone tablets I would need to carve out 1 TB in binary on stone tablets not to mention how many eons it would take to carve.

cluckcluck ...stone tablets? 
Imagine how Moses would have felt having an ipod or hdd . He wouldn't have had a sore back carrying the 10 commandments down the Mount ! ;D


« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2009, 19:14 »
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Scary thought really........

Imagine the number of commandments we might have been stuck with then....   ???     ;D ;D ;D

e-person

« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2009, 19:25 »
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I decided to move on HDD backups (instead of DVD's), so all my data is stored twice on 2 separate HDD's. These are external, USB HDD's.

Hard disk are not meant to be backup media.

As for CD/DVDs, first try to read them with the units that wrote them, then find a unit that can read them. It is only a matter of lens focus.

« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2009, 20:43 »
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Unfortunately, there have been many reports in the industry of CDs/DVDs having a lifespan of only a few years.  It is one of the reasons that I moved away from CDs/DVDs onto HDDs a few years ago.

Here is just one of those reports:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/01/10/73755_HNcdlifespan_1.html
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 20:55 by GeoPappas »

« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2009, 20:47 »
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Hard disk are not meant to be backup media.


I'm not sure where you heard this, but it isn't correct.  HDDs are used for backups quite frequently.  There is a strategy called disk-to-disk (D2D) that is widely used in the IT industry for backing up crucial data very quickly.

See here for more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk-to-disk

HDDs are a very reliable and efficient means of backing up data.


« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2009, 20:54 »
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You should ... save your data on professionally maintained RAID arrays, in addition to any local backups.

While many people like RAID, it has its problems as well (and in my opinion is much over-rated for home usage).  For example, if your RAID controller goes bad and you can't find a replacement then you have probably just lost all of your data.  You would be surprised how often this happens.  Trying to find a replacement RAID controller for hardware that is only a few years old can be very difficult.


« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2009, 23:57 »
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I've heard problems where people wrote on their CDs with a pen that turned out to be acidic and ate thought the top 'paint' layer into the recording layer. This only affects CDs. DVDs (which I guess is now the backup of choice now we shoot raw) are laminated between a second layer of plastic so scratching the top does nothing.

But like those above I moved over to backing up onto hard disks. I have both plain duplicates of all my files and directories and ghost images of the whole system. One hard disk off site and 2 on site for alternate weeks (ahem well months sometimes...)

back ups are all well and nice, but what's more important is the speed you can get back to work after something happens, having all your files scattered into 100's of different CDs or DVDs might mean you never loose anything but also means days or weeks of putting everything back together after it went wrong, the then reinstalling and configuring software etc.

likewise having only restore methods that can be read back onto the original system (tape or sequential file backups) make for very swift and single click recoverey from some problems but not if the hardware itself is at fault, then you are scratching around to trying to read custom backup formats back onto to a new system.

Agree with staying away from RAID for a domestic set-up unless you have some need for the speed of striping or must have 1TB as a whole drive instead of 2x 500GB (like video work). The self correcting features of some RAID configs are there to allow disk arrays to continue or fail-over if one drive dies (increased uptime), not to 'guarantee' that data won't be lost if hardware fails

I'd think about to worst case scenarios, 1) a virus wipes everything thing on your machine leaving no choice but to format and reinstall the OS, and 2) your computer gets stolen or fries in lightning strike. Can you EASILY recover from both situations? if you make a living with the computer then you should!


« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2009, 00:55 »
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I do backups on another PC at home. I do plan to get an external HDD to have backups there as well. These days, one cen get 1TB for around $100 on sale.

« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2009, 03:05 »
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I'd be very surprised if the media was so degraded after such a short period, even with the crappiest Taiwan import brands.  If that doesn't work, try a CD/DVD drive from a different brand.

I'm afraid the OP is right. It's not actually 1-3 years but 4-7. In my case it's not the brand since we used top CDs then in a corporate environment. My copied audio done in 2000-2001 mostly died when I checked in 2006. My data (images) of 2002-2004 now are unreadable in 50% of the cases. When I found out 2 years ago CDs actually have a life span 40x lower than the manufacturers claimed at the time, I switched to USB HDs (4 Iomega and 1 Hp for now).

Moreover, the stupid socialist tax-horny Belgian government puts a tax of 0.12 eurocent on empty CDs and 0.59 eurocent on empty DVDs in behalf of the maffia of music and film companies to compensate them for the loss by illegal copying. Even if you put your own data and photos on the DVDs, you are bound to pay this tax of almost 1$ on a DVD, which goes then entirely to RIAA and IFPI maffiosi. No wonder sales of empty (and also music) CDs went down and that of HDs (untaxed till now) goes up (the ever-inventive politicians are thinking now about a tax on HDs and PCs, on behalf of the music and movie industry).

With a capacity of 4Gig per DVD, it costs you 225$ on tax alone to back up 1T, while a Iomega 1T USB HD costs here 140 euro now (included 21% VAT tax and 10% import tax). That means you can buy almost 2 HDs from the tax alone you save burning DVDs.

In short, it's a bit stupid to burn backups on DVD.
- It takes much longer to write and change disks
- It's basically read-only
- It takes a lot of storage and management for just 4Gig per unit if you include raws and processed TIFFs
- It's unsafe in the long term
- Included taxes and media, it's 3x the price of a HD

« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 03:09 by FlemishDreams »

« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2009, 00:59 »
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What about using solid state for those with smaller ports? I know that flash drives and cards have a limited number of writes / rewrites but as far as long term storage life are they any good? Should also be easy to store them in a fire proof box.

« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2009, 04:16 »
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CD and DVD are completly different when longevity is in question. DVD last 10 or more times longer than CD because of different material used as medium. Average life of CD is 2-10 years depending on disk quality, and DVD lasts at least 20 years, and sometimes up to 300 years. So, DVD is much safer than CD. Also, I would never keep my data only on HDD, because I don't believe too much in mediums sensitive to magnetic field. My son loves to play with magnets. :) He has some strong magnets in his arsenal and I don't want any of these toys to pass near my HDD
So, I keep my backups saved on DVDs and HDD aswell

« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 04:27 by whitechild »

« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2009, 04:32 »
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What about using solid state for those with smaller ports? I know that flash drives and cards have a limited number of writes / rewrites but as far as long term storage life are they any good? Should also be easy to store them in a fire proof box.

For smaller ports all options are open. Writing on DVD is fine too, as long as you write 2 copies every time, and you rewrite them every 2 years. If it's just for backup, USB sticks are overkill since they are intended as transportable rewritable medium and their price is too high per Gig for just backup. You could backup your stuff on an Ipod too  :o .

If you just have few Gigs to backup, consider free unlimited online storage like Gmail or Yahoo mail. You can simply mail the images to yourself on another account, so you have them twice per provider: as sender (in your outbox) and as receiver (in your inbox). There are aps around that treat Gmail and Ymail as a netdrive, but I think it's against the TOS of Yahoo and Google. Normal mail should do.

For larger ports, the real problem with DVDs is their limited storage and the number of manipulations required to backup. For 100 Gig for instance, you will have to insert/remove 50 (25 x 2) DVDs.

The last 3 months of 2008 I shot about 30 Gig. That corresponds with roughly 3,000 photos. Far from all is stock of course. Most is travel, just personal, or (especially) assignements like band shoots, events and commissioned portraiture. There are also the bloopers but I hate to delete them since they can be a goldmine for cloning in case you missed the tip of an elbow of in a good model shot. Customers of commissioned shoots also expect you to keep a backup since it's incredible how many dogs there are around that eat the DVDs you give their masters.  ::)

I keep all the versions: NEF and JPG out of the cam, and for the processed shots also the 16-bit TIFF. The TIFF stands for editing time, and time is money. The TIFF is lossless and you can always fall back on it for tweaking. An 8-bit JPG is lossy and every time you open/modify/save it again, it degrades. So that gives roughly 60 MB per processed shot: 8 MB NEF, 3 MB JPG out of cam, 35 MB TIFF (zipped or it's 60), 8 MB JPG for Alamy, 3 MB JPG (6MP) for SS, 5MB JPG (10 MP) for the rest.

So for an average shooter, count on 100 Gig per year, at least. Volume shooters (the guys with studios) might have a multiple of that. There is simply no other way to back up this volume of data in a productive way (time is money) than on HD and price is not an excuse since 1 Terra USB HDs will be around 140 $/110 euro in the post NewYear's sale.

Four notes:
- It makes sense to distinguish between shots with an emotional value (personal, family, travel) and shots without, like a model studio shoot. The first ones you'd backup always, the second you can discard largely and just keep the production images once the best are processed.
- When you backuped on an external HD, check the freshly made thumbs there quickly by a program that doesn't cache thumbs (Windows does) like Irfanview. Disks can fail...
- I'm worried for the time 24 MP cams will be the standard.
- I wonder how Yuri Arcurs backs up.

« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2009, 04:56 »
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CD and DVD are completly different when longevity is in question. DVD last 10 or more times longer than CD because of different material used as medium. Average life of CD is 2-10 years depending on disk quality, and DVD lasts at least 20 years, and sometimes up to 300 years.

Did you check your DVDs after 300 years yet?  :P
That's what the manufacturers told about CDs too, 10 years ago.

« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2009, 05:30 »
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I have no problems reading my personal archives recorded on CDs 10 years ago or even earlier. But they are brand name CDs; and they were read very few times since recorded.

I've read many times that DVDs are protected much better and should survive longer. However I've read may posts of people who lost their data, like one above so I am revising my backup strategy right now.

I used to put my RAW and edited PSD files on 2 DVDs of different brands; but now I will put a copy on 2 external hard drives (that will be different brands and will only be used for backup; one of the 2 will be kept off-site); plus I started uploading selected most important RAW files to Amazon S3 (to avoid too high costs I don't upload large PSD files; just some RAW files and personal data). That's my plan for now and it is already partially implemented.

« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2009, 05:32 »
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I knew that the design life of a CD is 20-100years but the actual 2-3 years is dangerously low.

CD-R:s are NOT CD:s. "Real" CD:s are made with a totally different process than CD-R:s you burn at home.

The main physical difference between CD-R:s and the standard prerecorded CD is that the latter has no recording layer; the information is permanently stamped in the aluminium reflecting layer.

I backup my files on two external drives (they are so cheap nowdays). If one drive breaks down, I still have two that most likely still works. I wouldn't have the time or energy to mess around with discs.

And remember: REAL backups are always stored in a separate location in case of burglary or fire or such.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 05:51 by Perry »

« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2009, 07:12 »
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CD and DVD are completly different when longevity is in question. DVD last 10 or more times longer than CD because of different material used as medium. Average life of CD is 2-10 years depending on disk quality, and DVD lasts at least 20 years, and sometimes up to 300 years.

Did you check your DVDs after 300 years yet?  :P
That's what the manufacturers told about CDs too, 10 years ago.

Oh no :D I found that somewhere on internet, but I tried to find it today and I couldn't :D Don't believe me on this :)

« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2009, 15:46 »
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Did you check your DVDs after 300 years yet?  :P
That's what the manufacturers told about CDs too, 10 years ago.


I don't know about DVDs and CDs, but there is a lot in the industry that goes through "accelerated life testing"
http://www.weibull.com/basics/accelerated.htm

A lot of the materials we use have data based on this.  I suppose that it is possible to safely guarantee a certain life, but statistically it can be much larger, such as the 300 years that are so appealing for marketing purposes. 

Regards,
Adelaide

« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2009, 16:55 »
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Moreover, the stupid socialist tax-horny Belgian government puts a tax of 0.12 eurocent on empty CDs and 0.59 eurocent on empty DVDs in behalf of the maffia of music and film companies to compensate them for the loss by illegal copying. Even if you put your own data and photos on the DVDs, you are bound to pay this tax of almost 1$ on a DVD, which goes then entirely to RIAA and IFPI maffiosi. No wonder sales of empty (and also music) CDs went down and that of HDs (untaxed till now) goes up (the ever-inventive politicians are thinking now about a tax on HDs and PCs, on behalf of the music and movie industry).


[/quote]

That canon it's just a way of protecting authors from piracy. While it's awkard, because it doesn't tell about storage media used to pirate copies from the ones used to store own content, it is the only effective way of giving back to the authors and the industry a tiny perercentage of what they lose everyday through PSP nets. I dont't now how do you react when you find a photo, or an illustration or whatever you do stolen; maybe it's ok with you, I don't know, but musicians, moviemakers etc are workers as well, and they deserve not to be stolen in masse.

« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2009, 17:04 »
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I got 3 hard drives. Let's say 300, 500 and 750 GB. I always save to 3 locations. When smallest runs out of space I will buy 1TB and keep copying to 3 locations. I use rsync so I always to 3 exact copies of folder with photos.

Tried to use Amazon S3 but it's too slow so I never finished uploading before I gave up. Ultimately cloud of computers should be safes what to backup but I wish I could send them a hard drive so they would upload data locally.

« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2009, 18:16 »
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Tried to use Amazon S3 but it's too slow so I never finished uploading before I gave up.


Saving large amounts of data to an online backup service would definitely require a very high speed Internet connection.  I have over 50 GB of images and a low-speed DSL connection (128 kbps upstream).  I calculated that it would take about 50 days to backup that amount of data over my current connection.  If I got high speed DSL (512 kbps upstream), I could cut that time down to only about 12 days!  :D

Ultimately cloud of computers should be safes what to backup but I wish I could send them a hard drive so they would upload data locally.


SOSOnline.com allows a user to send in a DVD or a hard disk (provided by them) to seed your online data.

I don't use them and have only tried out their free trial for a few days, but I didn't really like their feature set.

See here for more info:

http://www.sosonlinebackup.com/physical-media-upload.htm
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 18:29 by GeoPappas »

« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2009, 18:29 »
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Duplicate post.  Sorry.

« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2009, 18:59 »
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These guys are way too expensive. Hard drives are quite cheap now so it's still most cost effective option.

« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2009, 19:33 »
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That canon it's just a way of protecting authors from piracy. While it's awkard, because it doesn't tell about storage media used to pirate copies from the ones used to store own content, it is the only effective way of giving back to the authors and the industry a tiny perercentage of what they lose everyday through PSP nets.

Yeah right, so I demand a tax on the internet of which a percentage is given to me since my pictures are probably stolen by the internet. If the tax on empty media is intended to compensate the musicians for their losses through Torrents (P2P is outdated), they steal in fact from me since I used DVDs for backing up my own data.

Not that it really matters since I live part-time in this tiny country bordering to Germany and France (the Netherlands have the same tax) which don't apply the tax. Sales of empty media went down drastically here. As to piracy, well, stolen pictures, software, music would probably never been bought by the pirates anyways. And as to my other part-time place of living in SE Asia, well, I think I never saw a legal version of anything. And that's an understatement.  ::)

Tuilay

« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2009, 09:27 »
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Flemish, right on!
and more so, pirates don't store their backup on disks, they use the web storage.
and when they do pirate to disks, they pass the charges to the buyers anyway.

« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2009, 10:08 »
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Yeah, i am a bit nervous writing my stuff to CD's and DVD's.  I have backups on that media but also have another copy on my computer, and a third copy on another hard drive off site.  I think backing up on more than one media type is a good idea.

I also re-back-up everything every few years, on new drives so I know the media is for sure still good.  Drives are getting cheaper and cheaper so it is really inexpensive to back things up.

hali

« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2009, 11:01 »
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Yeah, i am a bit nervous writing my stuff to CD's and DVD's.  I have backups on that media but also have another copy on my computer, and a third copy on another hard drive off site.  I think backing up on more than one media type is a good idea.

I also re-back-up everything every few years, on new drives so I know the media is for sure still good.  Drives are getting cheaper and cheaper so it is really inexpensive to back things up.

I do the same thing too, leaf .
But sometimes I think we are overdoing it. I already have so many backup dvds and cds,
I don't even know what's on each one. As my friend once remarked about my collection of music
cds, plus my backup of images,etc.., "you're obsessive, how will you even find the time to
look at them again?"
Looking back, I still have my 4x5 , 2 1/4, and 35 mm slides and negatives, along with my
archival prints. But I don't think I've even looked at them for over 15 years.  ::)

« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2009, 11:11 »
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Last summer, I took a workshop at the Santa Fe Photography Workshops. My teacher recommended an external harddrive plus archival CDs or DVDs for backup. They come in gold and silver. I haven't used the silver, but the gold are supposed to last 300 years. Also, don't mark discs with sharpie markers. In time, they will make the discs unreadable. They now make special markers for writing on the discs. You can find both the discs and the markers at most good photography stores. I did an internet search to find the best price. A word of warning, they do cost a lot more, but it's worth it for safe storage. Another teacher of mine recommended having one backup stored in a different location. Somewhere away from your other two backups. Hope this helps.

Pat

« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2009, 11:24 »
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Not that it really matters since I live part-time in this tiny country bordering to Germany and France (the Netherlands have the same tax) which don't apply the tax. Sales of empty media went down drastically here.

Sio, I don't understand why are you so angry. Buy the media in the country without taxes, and problem solved without need of worrying about ethics.

hali

« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2009, 11:27 »
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Last summer, I took a workshop at the Santa Fe Photography Workshops. My teacher recommended an external harddrive plus archival CDs or DVDs for backup. They come in gold and silver. I haven't used the silver, but the gold are supposed to last 300 years. Also, don't mark discs with sharpie markers. In time, they will make the discs unreadable. They now make special markers for writing on the discs. You can find both the discs and the markers at most good photography stores. I did an internet search to find the best price. A word of warning, they do cost a lot more, but it's worth it for safe storage. Another teacher of mine recommended having one backup stored in a different location. Somewhere away from your other two backups. Hope this helps.

Pat

oh boy, I am in trouble. My cds and dvds are all marked with those pens.
Is there anyway I can erase them clean off the dvds? do you think there is a product I can use so I can have all the backups free of ink? That would be easier than to have to backup all again.

« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2009, 12:12 »
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If there is a way to save them, I haven't found it yet. I've been gradually changing all of mine over to the archival discs with the special markers. My system is to transfer a few old discs at a time to my external hard drive, and then to copy them to the new gold discs. It's been laborious, and is not much fun. The up side is that my storage is now as secure as I can make it. Someone on another list also recommended using Gmail as it has unlimited storage. I haven't checked this out yet. Does anyone do this?

« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2009, 13:15 »
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Sio, I don't understand why are you so angry. Buy the media in the country without taxes, and problem solved without need of worrying about ethics.

I'm not angry at all. I just keep being amazed how stupid politicians are. But then, I'm amazed at many things, all the time. Amazement keeps us going, right?

« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2009, 13:27 »
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Someone on another list also recommended using Gmail as it has unlimited storage. I haven't checked this out yet. Does anyone do this?


As far as I know I mentioned it, and also Yahoo mail. It's free since not the storage is an issue now but just the bandwidth. Dedicated remote storage servers might disappear, like Digital Railroad. Chances that Yahoo or Google fail are less. Using a GDRIVE (and here) or an YDrive (Google on it, also at Tucows.com) is more secure. If it's against their TOS, mail all the images to yourself, that's within the TOS. Of course, no network drive is safe in principle, and it has a bandwidth problem. The only decent solutions to mission-critical backups is redundancy so use your local drives (Iomega USB drives are cheap now) too.


 

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