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Author Topic: the reason why you shouldn't submit to Depositphotos!  (Read 43696 times)

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« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2012, 15:48 »
0
had 1 a few days ago for 2.76$, I wish we had some reply/explanation from DP here, just turned bronze this week


EmberMike

« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2012, 16:16 »
0
...I see no logic in uploading to minor agencies that don't do much, except selling for cents to get some customers and accelerating the race to the bottom.

Race to the bottom? The smaller agencies tend to have much higher royalty rates, and average to above average prices. None of the top 4 are offering 50% royalties. My highest RPD comes from small agencies, not the big 4. So how is that a race to the bottom, when the small agencies are at the top of the scale in many cases?

« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 16:19 by EmberMike »

EmberMike

« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2012, 16:19 »
0
That's exactly the reason why I don't upload to the agencies outside the top 4 and deleted half of my accounts already. Shady business practices all the time. On top of offensively low commissions we get from sales that happen on their sites.

Again, false. This is just flat-out wrong, and yet you keep saying it in this forum.

Yes, there are a few bad apples among the smaller agencies. But some of the worst business practices come from some of the top 4 companies as well. Fotolia is probably one of the shadiest companies in the business.

And we get some of th highest commissions from small companies. My highest RPD sites are not the top 4.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion about these sites, but gross generalizations based on your opinion of just a few less reputable companies doesn't help anyone.

And how does you comment differ in any way? LOL!

I don't know what you mean here. My comment is the opposite of yours. It's not full of gross generalizations. I clearly said that while I understand that there are some bad apples among the smaller companies, there are also plenty of companies that make far better offers than the big 4 in terms of pricing, royalties, etc. I recognize that not all companies are the same, unlike you who chooses to label them all identically based on the actions of the few.


stan

    This user is banned.
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2012, 17:26 »
0
That's exactly the reason why I don't upload to the agencies outside the top 4 and deleted half of my accounts already. Shady business practices all the time. On top of offensively low commissions we get from sales that happen on their sites.

Again, false. This is just flat-out wrong, and yet you keep saying it in this forum.

Yes, there are a few bad apples among the smaller agencies. But some of the worst business practices come from some of the top 4 companies as well. Fotolia is probably one of the shadiest companies in the business.

And we get some of th highest commissions from small companies. My highest RPD sites are not the top 4.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion about these sites, but gross generalizations based on your opinion of just a few less reputable companies doesn't help anyone.

And how does you comment differ in any way? LOL!

I don't know what you mean here. My comment is the opposite of yours. It's not full of gross generalizations. I clearly said that while I understand that there are some bad apples among the smaller companies, there are also plenty of companies that make far better offers than the big 4 in terms of pricing, royalties, etc. I recognize that not all companies are the same, unlike you who chooses to label them all identically based on the actions of the few.

I you said I was flat out wrong, you didn't say why. Highest commissions from small companies?!? Name 1, for photos of course. And that has the volume as well, or else even a 10$ RPD doesn't help much (which you don't get anyway). You say gross generilazations based on my opinion, but what are you basing your post on?

Sure the small companies make better pricing. For the buyers ;)

Be specific, tell something, don't just talk for talk's sake

« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2012, 17:37 »
+2
...I see no logic in uploading to minor agencies that don't do much, except selling for cents to get some customers and accelerating the race to the bottom.

Race to the bottom? The smaller agencies tend to have much higher royalty rates, and average to above average prices. None of the top 4 are offering 50% royalties. My highest RPD comes from small agencies, not the big 4. So how is that a race to the bottom, when the small agencies are at the top of the scale in many cases?

Just went there. You can get a XS for 0,40 (no subs) and an XL for 4.00. Tha'ts 0,20 and 2,00 royalties. Above average prices?? I get 2,50 from an XS  and 12 from an XL  at IS (not to talk of E+ Vetta and Agency). My RPD is about 5 $.
At the end of the day, what matters is what we get for our work. That has three factors: % royalties, sales volume and price. If two of these factors fail, in my opinion, the agency it's not worth.

EmberMike

« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2012, 23:22 »
+2
I you said I was flat out wrong, you didn't say why. Highest commissions from small companies?!? Name 1, for photos of course. And that has the volume as well, or else even a 10$ RPD doesn't help much (which you don't get anyway). You say gross generilazations based on my opinion, but what are you basing your post on?

Sure the small companies make better pricing. For the buyers ;)

Be specific, tell something, don't just talk for talk's sake

I can't comment specifically on photo sales as I'm not a photographer, but here's what I'm talking about (and most of these sites sell photos as well as vectors):

StockFresh. $10 vector sales, $5 in my pocket for each one, over $100 per month total earnings.

GL. $6-$15 vector pricing (set by contributor, option to set it higher). $3.60 - $7.80 per sale, good sales volume.

GraphicRiver. 33% royalty (not great but more than double what istock will be paying me next year). 2nd highest earner last month in total earnings for me, behind SS, out of 20 sites I sell at.

Unnamed site (I'm not giving away any secrets), it's not even on the poll list. Over $3,000 in earnings there so far this year.

Veer. I saw a ton of $7 royalties last month, a good number of $2-$5 royalties. Significant growth in the last few months. Veer will probably move ahead of DT on my list soon.

My earnings from middle and low tier sites last month represented 30% of my total.

These sites are far from bottom feeders. They pay no worse than the worst of the top 4, percentage wise and in some cases in total earnings for me. And I sure as heck wouldn't want to do without the 30% of my income that comes from the small sites.

You can hate on small sites for whatever reason. And I'm not interested in convincing anyone that they should participate in them. But I'm not ok with anyone making these general claims about all small site based on your opinion of how a few of the bad ones operate. These sites are important, and I think it's reckless and damaging to the industry to discourage people from looking into them because you say they all pay poorly.

How about you let people decide for themselves? Why try to discourage people from trying smaller sites that, in some cases and contrary to your generalization, do pay well, do offer good deals for contributors, and do not contribute to this "race to the bottom" you're so concerned with?

And since we're being "specific" as you asked, how about you be specific about which sites you think are bad for the business, and why.

Microbius

« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2012, 01:25 »
0
...I see no logic in uploading to minor agencies that don't do much, except selling for cents to get some customers and accelerating the race to the bottom.

Race to the bottom? The smaller agencies tend to have much higher royalty rates, and average to above average prices. None of the top 4 are offering 50% royalties. My highest RPD comes from small agencies, not the big 4. So how is that a race to the bottom, when the small agencies are at the top of the scale in many cases?
100% behind you (Mike) on the point that some of the best sites in terms of treatment of contributors are the smaller ones. But what loop was saying I think doesn't contradict you.

There is no point uploading to the other small sites that only compete on price like DP. You can justify uploading to the big sites that threat us like s**t because of the volume of sales, but uploading to one of the bad small guys is serving no purpose but "accelerating the race to the bottom"

What stan is saying I can't quite figure out, as I think you have been pretty clear on your stance which is opposite to his (i.e. some of biggest sites offer the worst terms, some of the smallest some of the best)

ETA one more interesting thing you bought up, the site that isn't on the right and is your second best earner, I am also on there and it demonstrates that the "you need millions for marketing" thing is not necessarily true. They bring in their buyers with great customer service and lots of work on SEO, but that's another topic.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 01:29 by Microbius »

« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2012, 01:55 »
0
So we lose lagereek and gain stan around the same time.  There's something very familiar about those bold statements that are correct in everything but the facts :)
Must be a coincidence that they both dislike the smaller sites, I'm sure it couldn't possibly be the same person, that never happens here (sarcasm emoticon)

Perhaps the worst site of them all for leading the race to the bottom is Thinkstock and they're owned by the biggest site, Getty.  I never understand why some people say the small sites with low volume are forcing prices down?  People complain that they don't have buyers but at the same time think they have a big influence on prices?  And most of the small sites I use pay much more commission percentages than most of the bigger sites.

As for Depositphotos, I've never fully trusted them.  They aren't like the other smaller sites I use.  They invested lots of money and seem too much like FT.  I wouldn't be surprised if they end up as unpopular.  And there's the previous discussions here about alleged financial links to the site that hosts stolen microstock images.  Never quite understood how people can have confidence in a site that has those connections.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 01:58 by sharpshot »

Microbius

« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2012, 02:11 »
0
...... I never understand why some people say the small sites with low volume are forcing prices down?  People complain that they don't have buyers but at the same time think they have a big influence on prices? ........
Fotolia made it pretty clear they were paying attention when DP came on the scene when they tried to use it as an excuse to lower their prices for any contributor selling on DP

stan

    This user is banned.
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2012, 04:36 »
0
I you said I was flat out wrong, you didn't say why. Highest commissions from small companies?!? Name 1, for photos of course. And that has the volume as well, or else even a 10$ RPD doesn't help much (which you don't get anyway). You say gross generilazations based on my opinion, but what are you basing your post on?

Sure the small companies make better pricing. For the buyers ;)

Be specific, tell something, don't just talk for talk's sake

I can't comment specifically on photo sales as I'm not a photographer, but here's what I'm talking about (and most of these sites sell photos as well as vectors):

StockFresh. $10 vector sales, $5 in my pocket for each one, over $100 per month total earnings.

GL. $6-$15 vector pricing (set by contributor, option to set it higher). $3.60 - $7.80 per sale, good sales volume.

GraphicRiver. 33% royalty (not great but more than double what istock will be paying me next year). 2nd highest earner last month in total earnings for me, behind SS, out of 20 sites I sell at.

Unnamed site (I'm not giving away any secrets), it's not even on the poll list. Over $3,000 in earnings there so far this year.

Veer. I saw a ton of $7 royalties last month, a good number of $2-$5 royalties. Significant growth in the last few months. Veer will probably move ahead of DT on my list soon.

My earnings from middle and low tier sites last month represented 30% of my total.

These sites are far from bottom feeders. They pay no worse than the worst of the top 4, percentage wise and in some cases in total earnings for me. And I sure as heck wouldn't want to do without the 30% of my income that comes from the small sites.

You can hate on small sites for whatever reason. And I'm not interested in convincing anyone that they should participate in them. But I'm not ok with anyone making these general claims about all small site based on your opinion of how a few of the bad ones operate. These sites are important, and I think it's reckless and damaging to the industry to discourage people from looking into them because you say they all pay poorly.

How about you let people decide for themselves? Why try to discourage people from trying smaller sites that, in some cases and contrary to your generalization, do pay well, do offer good deals for contributors, and do not contribute to this "race to the bottom" you're so concerned with?

And since we're being "specific" as you asked, how about you be specific about which sites you think are bad for the business, and why.

You see. I stopped reading right after you said you weren't a tog. Irrelevant info for me ;)

Microbius

« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2012, 05:29 »
0
I don't consider what 123rf did as stunt, their new compensation system would still make them one of the fairer sites out there. They even offered to grandfather in anyone with a sizable portfolio or number of sales. Big players shouldn't see a drop in commission in any case.

DP hasn't become any more shady, they are pretty much the same as ever.

stan

    This user is banned.
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2012, 05:34 »
0
I don't consider what 123rf did as stunt, their new compensation system would still make them one of the fairer sites out there. They even offered to grandfather in anyone with a sizable portfolio or number of sales. Big players shouldn't see a drop in commission in any case.

DP hasn't become any more shady, they are pretty much the same as ever.

Them saying anyone with over 250 sales (or something like that) is going to keep on getting 50% and than changing it is not a stunt, but one of the fairer sites? Wow, people just keep on surprising me with their interpretations about what fair is. I don't know anything about grandfathering, was that kept quiet, did they just send emails to the chosen ones?

So that makes them just ok then? ;D

Microbius

« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2012, 05:44 »
+1
Paying between 30% and 60% with achievable lower tiers easily makes the new terms some of the best (the best?) among the the bigger sites.

If you are, say, a platinum seller on IS you should be making 50+ percent on 123, on IStock you would be lucky to make 20%

Poncke

« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2012, 06:02 »
0
Re 123: I cannot for the life of me figure out how the h3ll a drop in commission is going to motivate me to upload more high quality images. How is punishing me by paying me less for my OWN work going to make me want to reward you with giving you even more and better images?? What drugs are these people on? Problem is that only the small guy is getting hit, and we might not hear a lot from the top contributors because they are not affected. I assume if everyone would see the drop, hell would be raised. But thats an assumption I made, and if I am wrong assuming that, I must have missed something then and I apologise up front.

stan

    This user is banned.
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2012, 06:05 »
0
Paying between 30% and 60% with achievable lower tiers easily makes the new terms some of the best (the best?) among the the bigger sites.

If you are, say, a platinum seller on IS you should be making 50+ percent on 123, on IStock you would be lucky to make 20%

When will some of you get a grasp on basic math? What is better:

Making 1000 sales/month with 1,5$+ RPD at IS or getting 200 at 0,6$ RPD at 123RF or 150 at DP at 0,4$ RPD. I've made up the number of DLs, while the RPD and DL ratios are (almost) exact, when I look at my stats. You see, if I earned 1500$ at IS, I got only 120$ at 123RF and 60$ at DP. Can you understand where I'm coming from now? On top of all that IS rolled out the RC system and said this is the deal, take it or leave it, while 123RF promised some of us we wouldn't be affected and later on broke that promise. They hustled us, those that were close to the 250 DLs limit to UL all they have and the rest of us to UL a while longer/delete our ports at a later date or in the best case scenario (for them) either don't delete our ports, just stop ULing. All in all the RC system is of course bad, it's exactly this https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=472614526105332&set=a.244903342209786.71434.212514318782022&type=1&theater

Microbius

« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2012, 06:08 »
+1
Re 123: I cannot for the life of me figure out how the h3ll a drop in commission is going to motivate me to upload more high quality images. How is punishing me by paying me less for my OWN work going to make me want to reward you with giving you even more and better images?? What drugs are these people on? Problem is that only the small guy is getting hit, and we might not hear a lot from the top contributors because they are not affected. I assume if everyone would see the drop, hell would be raised. But thats an assumption I made, and if I am wrong assuming that, I must have missed something then and I apologise up front.
I guess I just apply the rules the same way as I do to stocks and shares.

Instead of looking at the history of what their commissions were I take an assessment of the new situation and decide as if it was a new investment if it is worth uploading or maintaining my portfolio on a site.

With 123 I will not see a drop in commission and may see an increase, plus even with a decrease I would still be uploading to many sites with less fair terms and lower sales.

DP on the other hand are fast approaching the point where I will have to pull all the work I have on there.

You should definitely stop uploading if your assessment is that the site cannot be trusted or that their compensation isn't worth the effort.

Poncke

« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2012, 06:10 »
0
Re 123: I cannot for the life of me figure out how the h3ll a drop in commission is going to motivate me to upload more high quality images. How is punishing me by paying me less for my OWN work going to make me want to reward you with giving you even more and better images?? What drugs are these people on? Problem is that only the small guy is getting hit, and we might not hear a lot from the top contributors because they are not affected. I assume if everyone would see the drop, hell would be raised. But thats an assumption I made, and if I am wrong assuming that, I must have missed something then and I apologise up front.
I guess I just apply the rules the same way as I do to stocks and shares.

Instead of looking at the history of what their commissions were I take an assessment of the new situation and decide as if it was a new investment if it is worth uploading or maintaining my portfolio on a site.

With 123 I will not see a drop in commission and may see an increase, plus even with a decrease I would still be uploading to many sites with less fair terms and lower sales.

DP on the other hand are fast approaching the point where I will have to pull all the work I have on there.

You should definitely stop uploading if your assessment is that the site cannot be trusted or that their compensation isn't worth the effort.

Thanks, thats very insightful advice, and I will look at it that way come January.

Wim

« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2012, 06:16 »
+1
With 123 I will not see a drop in commission and may see an increase, plus even with a decrease I would still be uploading to many sites with less fair terms and lower sales.

DP on the other hand are fast approaching the point where I will have to pull all the work I have on there.

True, I don't like the cut either and I will probably get one (45%) but that still doesn't get rid of the fact that we sell our work elsewhere under far worse conditions.

My 2c.

Microbius

« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2012, 06:17 »
+1
Paying between 30% and 60% with achievable lower tiers easily makes the new terms some of the best (the best?) among the the bigger sites.

If you are, say, a platinum seller on IS you should be making 50+ percent on 123, on IStock you would be lucky to make 20%

When will some of you get a grasp on basic math? What is better:

Making 1000 sales/month with 1,5$+ RPD at IS or getting 200 at 0,6$ RPD at 123RF or 150 at DP at 0,4$ RPD. I've made up the number of DLs, while the RPD and DL ratios are (almost) exact, when I look at my stats. You see, if I earned 1500$ at IS, I got only 120$ at 123RF and 60$ at DP. Can you understand where I'm coming from now? On top of all that IS rolled out the RC system and said this is the deal, take it or leave it, while 123RF promised some of us we wouldn't be affected and later on broke that promise. They hustled us, those that were close to the 250 DLs limit to UL all they have and the rest of us to UL a while longer/delete our ports at a later date or in the best case scenario (for them) either don't delete our ports, just stop ULing. All in all the RC system is of course bad, it's exactly this https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=472614526105332&set=a.244903342209786.71434.212514318782022&type=1&theater
Wow, your RPD on 123 and DP is really low!
Please factor in all those 25c (ever increasing) Thinkstock downloads before making your calculations for IS though, that would only be fair given that the RPD on 123 and DP includes their sub schemes. Then have a think about the demand curve and the fact that number of sales increases with a drop in price for no marginal cost to us and that IS is pricing themselves out of micro, and you start to see that it isn't as easy all that.
Just make your assessment and decide where you want to upload.

stan

    This user is banned.
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2012, 06:29 »
0
Paying between 30% and 60% with achievable lower tiers easily makes the new terms some of the best (the best?) among the the bigger sites.

If you are, say, a platinum seller on IS you should be making 50+ percent on 123, on IStock you would be lucky to make 20%

When will some of you get a grasp on basic math? What is better:

Making 1000 sales/month with 1,5$+ RPD at IS or getting 200 at 0,6$ RPD at 123RF or 150 at DP at 0,4$ RPD. I've made up the number of DLs, while the RPD and DL ratios are (almost) exact, when I look at my stats. You see, if I earned 1500$ at IS, I got only 120$ at 123RF and 60$ at DP. Can you understand where I'm coming from now? On top of all that IS rolled out the RC system and said this is the deal, take it or leave it, while 123RF promised some of us we wouldn't be affected and later on broke that promise. They hustled us, those that were close to the 250 DLs limit to UL all they have and the rest of us to UL a while longer/delete our ports at a later date or in the best case scenario (for them) either don't delete our ports, just stop ULing. All in all the RC system is of course bad, it's exactly this https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=472614526105332&set=a.244903342209786.71434.212514318782022&type=1&theater
Wow, your RPD on 123 and DP is really low!
Please factor in all those 25c (ever increasing) Thinkstock downloads before making your calculations for IS though, that would only be fair given that the RPD on 123 and DP includes their sub schemes. Then have a think about the demand curve and the fact that number of sales increases with a drop in price for no marginal cost to us and that IS is pricing themselves out of micro, and you start to see that it isn't as easy all that.
Just make your assessment and decide where you want to upload.

Indeed it is, but at least when it comes to DP, I hear it from many people they're getting the same.

Yes, I haven't factored in PP. It would lower the RPD. But it would only further increase the differences in earnings. You do see that don't you? ;) . And as I've said many times, all I care about is the bottom line, RPD by itself is meaningless, if it's not multiplied by a healthy number of sales. OTOH sales can get really low if they're multiplied by huge RPD. I really don't care about the formula only the end result. That's why, I've been saying that for me, only top 4 agencies really matter. I am making the assessment as I go all the time. I've deleted some non top 4 accounts, while I just stopped ULing at the others. I'm pretty sure I'll drop DP and 123RF at the end of the year. Perhaps the whole bunch, I might be doing more damage than good to myself. Meaning those pathetic double digit earnings at those sites don't make up for all the google searches that lead to the cheapest sites and the price difference can be huge. And about IS, their latest price change was a reduction, for indies and E+.

Microbius

« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2012, 06:33 »
0
Fair enough, I get 50%+ of my income from the smaller sites all added together so it is worth it for me, provided as I say, they aren't undercutting my sales on other sites by competing just on price.

If it isn't worth it for you, you are right not to upload.

stan

    This user is banned.
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2012, 08:48 »
0
Fair enough, I get 50%+ of my income from the smaller sites all added together so it is worth it for me, provided as I say, they aren't undercutting my sales on other sites by competing just on price.

If it isn't worth it for you, you are right not to upload.

It makes sense in your case, I don't think I ever got over 15%. But then again, comparing us is like comparing apples and bananas; I'm a tog and you're an illustrator, we all know that some small sites work great for you, I've read many post from another illustrator (I can't remember her nick, but she has her own site that also works great for her), come to think about it, there were a few actually

EmberMike

« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2012, 09:53 »
+1
...I'm against small sites since they don't deliver and every single time they feel like they've become an important player, they pull stunts like 123RF or operate in a shady manner like DP (they don't answer to your request to delete your account or they just deactivate the files or as someone reported, keep on selling them). I've had some good experience after asking the small sites to delete my port, they did it immediately...

You realize you're contradicting yourself from one sentence to the next, right? First it's more generalizations, all small sites are bad, all do the same stuff, are shady, wont really delete things, etc. Then it's some small sites respond well to deletion requests.

So it's "every single time," except those times when it didn't happen that way. I see.

...Not a single top photographer earns most at a non top 4 agency...

And not a single top photographer limits their business to just the top 4, like you would probably suggest we all should. Wonder why that is...
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 14:44 by EmberMike »

« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2012, 12:54 »
0
A number of posts were removed from this thread consisting of petty personal disagreements.  If you have problems with another member, send me a PM, you don't need to make a public statement about it.  Please stick to the topic and not attack each other.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 13:52 by leaf »

lisafx

« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2012, 16:46 »
0
Instead of looking at the history of what their commissions were I take an assessment of the new situation and decide as if it was a new investment if it is worth uploading or maintaining my portfolio on a site.


I never thought of it like that, but I am very impressed by the logic of what you're saying.  This is probably the most rational way to assess any/all of the sites. 


 

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