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Author Topic: An Interesting Commentary by CEPIC to Dreamstime About Giving Images Away  (Read 10139 times)

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Ed

« on: May 27, 2013, 12:24 »
+1
This is a post by CEPIC directed toward Serban and Dreamstime....

http://www.cepic.org/news/blog/2013/05/fair_trade_creator_distributor_and_customer


« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2013, 12:36 »
+14
It's criminal when agencies that are supposed to be representing us are offering images for free, and bragging about how it's going to educate people. As one person in the article pointed out, free images aren't free. The site makes money off of ads and clicks, etc. They are making money...the contributor is the loser.

You will NEVER convince me that people can't afford to pay micro prices for images, when those same people, I would bet, stop at Starbucks for $4.00 or $5.00 a pop for a mocha latte, or buy a carton of cigs on the way home, or I could go on and on. Microstock prices are affordable for everyone and images should NEVER be given away for free.

But then as long as Dreamstime continues to rake in the profits, who gives a crap about the contributor.  >:(

« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2013, 12:43 »
+6
I'm confused. What's the debate here? Do you really need to form a council to decide that giving away images for free isn't a very good idea?

Ed

« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2013, 12:47 »
0
I'm confused. What's the debate here? Do you really need to form a council to decide that giving away images for free isn't a very good idea?


CEPIC stands for the Coordination of European Picture Agencies Stock, Press and Heritage.  It is an organization similar to ASMP or PACA.

http://www.cepic.org/

« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2013, 12:51 »
+4
If you check out the site, what he is doing is trying to use free images as a lure to redirect people to DT.

If people hadn't agreed to have their work given away then there wouldn't be this issue.

« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2013, 12:54 »
+1
I'm confused. What's the debate here? Do you really need to form a council to decide that giving away images for free isn't a very good idea?

Hmm __ it would seem so. Serban has been giving images away for free for several years now and yet he still doesn't 'get it'. Of course he can only do so by virtue of the photographers who have 'donated' their images.

I'd assume that he is also picking up the tab for site maintenance and bandwidth too so it must be costing him money. Obviously the conversion rate of users clicking through to DT, to actually buy a more suitable image for their project, must make it relatively cheap marketing. He has the data ... and we don't.

« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2013, 12:59 »
+4
If you check out the site, what he is doing is trying to use free images as a lure to redirect people to DT.

If people hadn't agreed to have their work given away then there wouldn't be this issue.

You are right about that. But aren't agencies supposed to look out for contributors? If an agency is hired to make money for a contributor, why would the agency even propose such nonsense? The answer is, of course, because the agency continues to make money while the contributor has been convinced that the free images are going to bring in paying customers. That was Serban's philosophy regarding Pinterest, and now he has taken it one step further. I would like to see the hard data saying that contributors are getting lots of conversion sales and people are indeed being educated.  ::)

« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2013, 13:03 »
+1
If you check out the site, what he is doing is trying to use free images as a lure to redirect people to DT.

If people hadn't agreed to have their work given away then there wouldn't be this issue.

You are right about that. But aren't agencies supposed to look out for contributors? If an agency is hired to make money for a contributor, why would the agency even propose such nonsense? The answer is, of course, because the agency continues to make money while the contributor has been convinced that the free images are going to bring in paying customers. That was Serban's philosophy regarding Pinterest, and now he has taken it one step further. I would like to see the hard data saying that contributors are getting lots of conversion sales and people are indeed being educated.  ::)

I would like to see that too, and in fact how much cash I'm making from those conversions.

« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2013, 13:03 »
0
I'm confused. What's the debate here? Do you really need to form a council to decide that giving away images for free isn't a very good idea?

Hmm __ it would seem so. Serban has been giving images away for free for several years now and yet he still doesn't 'get it'. Of course he can only do so by virtue of the photographers who have 'donated' their images.

I'd assume that he is also picking up the tab for site maintenance and bandwidth too so it must be costing him money. Obviously the conversion rate of users clicking through to DT, to actually buy a more suitable image for their project, must make it relatively cheap marketing. He has the data ... and we don't.

It may look to him on the surface like good marketing but he won't be able to tell how many people who might otherwise  have paid simply grab something free and go away. Without knowing the sum that has been removed from the industry's overall earnings, he can't know whether he is gaining or losing even if the referrals from the site exceed the cost of maintaining it.

It doesn't look to me as if it has been an effective police for DT, if my earnings are an indication (which, of course, they might not be).

« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2013, 13:11 »
0
It may look to him on the surface like good marketing but he won't be able to tell how many people who might otherwise  have paid simply grab something free and go away. Without knowing the sum that has been removed from the industry's overall earnings, he can't know whether he is gaining or losing even if the referrals from the site exceed the cost of maintaining it.

It doesn't look to me as if it has been an effective police for DT, if my earnings are an indication (which, of course, they might not be).

Yep. No other significant agency operates the 'free images' policy although Peter of Stockxpert did do so and thought it highly effective in growing StockXpert.

PaulieWalnuts

  • We Have Exciting News For You
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2013, 13:12 »
+1
I'd love to see some stats on what percentage of freebie hunters that are lured by free images actually end up buying something.

As long as free usable images are available why would anyone buy an image?


Poncke v2

« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2013, 16:08 »
+1
Where does he get those free images? Same with Fotolia, they have a collection of free images. But how does it get there?

They get all these images because the option to offer the image for free when it is rejected for the main library is opt out. You need to untick the box to prevent the image from being given away for free, and there are tons of contributors that do not know this or simply overlook it.

The option to give away your image needs to be opt in and when that happens, you will see no more images for free.

Facebook is the king of opt out and have been reprimanded many times for this. It should be made law that any option, whatever it is, is opt in, instead of opt out.

« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2013, 16:13 »
+24
Why doesn't CEPIC make a comment about the thousands of stock images Google is giving away for free without fair compensation to the owners?

dbvirago

« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2013, 16:34 »
+7
Early on, I opted in a few free images on FT and DT if they weren't 'good enough' to sell for .25. After they got thousands of downloads, I disabled/deleted and never did that again.

« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2013, 16:46 »
+4
The standard that nine out of 10 buyers require for a project is way below the minimum quality demands of microstock inspectors. So it stands to reason that all the "marginal" rejected images will be good enough for the vast majority of commercial users.
What Serban is giving away is largely BETTER - by a country mile - than the stuff that microstock was founded on 10 years ago and which people were more than happy to give a dollar or two for.

« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2013, 17:01 »
-2
I'm confused. What's the debate here? Do you really need to form a council to decide that giving away images for free isn't a very good idea?


CEPIC stands for the Coordination of European Picture Agencies Stock, Press and Heritage.  It is an organization similar to ASMP or PACA.

http://www.cepic.org/


sure! I wonder what CEPIC does anyway, what sort of authority have they in terms of private companies? CEPIC is just another cool "company" with some big guys filling well their pockets pretending they are making the all photography industry so much better ;)

will this commentary change DT or IS or other? nop!

in case you don't know go and be a CEPIC friend for 100 EUR ;D

Ed

« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2013, 17:01 »
0
Why doesn't CEPIC make a comment about the thousands of stock images Google is giving away for free without fair compensation to the owners?


Go through their website - you'll find many good articles....

They have done this successfully with Yahoo

http://www.cepic.org/news/blog/2013/04/when_it%E2%80%99s_time_say_no

There are various articles regarding orphan works and Google.

Ed

« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2013, 17:07 »
+2
I'm confused. What's the debate here? Do you really need to form a council to decide that giving away images for free isn't a very good idea?


CEPIC stands for the Coordination of European Picture Agencies Stock, Press and Heritage.  It is an organization similar to ASMP or PACA.

http://www.cepic.org/


sure! I wonder what CEPIC does anyway, what sort of authority have they in terms of private companies? CEPIC is just another cool "company" with some big guys filling well their pockets pretending they are making the all photography industry so much better ;)

will this commentary change DT or IS or other? nop!

in case you don't know go and be a CEPIC friend for 100 EUR ;D


Luis - CEPIC board members are elected by owners of stock photography companies that are trying to make a difference and change the way DT IS and other agencies do business.  You can find the member agencies here...

http://www.cepic.org/directory/member_agencies

Yes, you can join CEPIC as an individual for 100 EUR plus a 20% one time initiation fee.  Your membership helps to influence agencies to do the right thing for photographers.  This is no different than the ASMP, or the APA.

« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2013, 17:13 »
-2
I'm confused. What's the debate here? Do you really need to form a council to decide that giving away images for free isn't a very good idea?


CEPIC stands for the Coordination of European Picture Agencies Stock, Press and Heritage.  It is an organization similar to ASMP or PACA.

http://www.cepic.org/


sure! I wonder what CEPIC does anyway, what sort of authority have they in terms of private companies? CEPIC is just another cool "company" with some big guys filling well their pockets pretending they are making the all photography industry so much better ;)

will this commentary change DT or IS or other? nop!

in case you don't know go and be a CEPIC friend for 100 EUR ;D


Luis - CEPIC board members are elected by owners of stock photography companies that are trying to make a difference and change the way DT IS and other agencies do business.  You can find the member agencies here...


oh really... interesting that nothing changes, actually it has, for worst :o

« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2013, 17:19 »
+1
It doesn't seem easy to find out who the board members and their companies are, but I did notice this on one of their press releases: "On 7 March, Jonathan Lockwood, VP Legal Counsel at Getty Images UK & BAPLA board member, gave a presentation on automated licensing solutions for low volume transactions"

So while I share their feelings over free images, I do suspect they are an old-time-trad agency pressure group.

Ed

« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2013, 17:32 »
0
It doesn't seem easy to find out who the board members and their companies are...


Board members serve for two years.  All of the information is on their website.  Here are the current list of nominees (requiring ratification)

http://cepic.org/news/2013/04/cepic_agm_10th_june_2013_barcelona_1400

« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2013, 17:42 »
0
It doesn't seem easy to find out who the board members and their companies are...


Board members serve for two years.  All of the information is on their website.  Here are the current list of nominees (requiring ratification)

http://cepic.org/news/2013/04/cepic_agm_10th_june_2013_barcelona_1400


And the list of Board members?  I have googled without success

« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2013, 17:45 »
0
It doesn't seem easy to find out who the board members and their companies are...


Board members serve for two years.  All of the information is on their website.  Here are the current list of nominees (requiring ratification)

http://cepic.org/news/2013/04/cepic_agm_10th_june_2013_barcelona_1400



And the list of Board members?  I have googled without success


One click from the link above.

http://cepic.org/about_us/cepic_committee

« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2013, 17:59 »
0
It doesn't seem easy to find out who the board members and their companies are...


Board members serve for two years.  All of the information is on their website.  Here are the current list of nominees (requiring ratification)

http://cepic.org/news/2013/04/cepic_agm_10th_june_2013_barcelona_1400



And the list of Board members?  I have googled without success


One click from the link above.

http://cepic.org/about_us/cepic_committee


Thanks, though I'm still really none the wiser since I don't know what the acronyms mean, so I guess microstock is not one of their interests. That might explain why they weren't bothered about the Google deal, if Sean's observation is correct.

« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2013, 18:26 »
-1
I like the fancy idea of us all giving away our images for free.
And such undermine the whole industry.

And actually, why shouldnt we. We are almost there anyway.

10 cents here and 25 cents there. And the distributors making all kinds of fancy trades with our content.

It can produce a much better feeling when you give a picture away to someone who needs it and he says thanks.

« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2013, 20:10 »
0
oh really... interesting that nothing changes, actually it has, for worst :o

LOL. That's what I was thinking.

Beppe Grillo

« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2013, 00:37 »
+2
"While some people can't 
 afford to pay for content; others don't want to pay, even though they 
still need specific images."

Well, I cannot afford to pay for an Aston Martin DB9, but I really need this specific car, so?

rubyroo

« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2013, 02:37 »
+1
It's the 'others don't want to pay' that baffles me.

Others don't want to pay, so we should reward them with freebies at the expense of the creators?

It's nonsensical.


gillian vann

  • *Gillian*
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2013, 02:48 »
+11
isn't it interesting that an image not deemed good enough for the DT collection would still get hundreds of downloads if free?


« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2013, 03:05 »
0
In the DT forum its mentioned that non-selling files more than 4 years old will be transferred to the free photo collection.

rubyroo

« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2013, 03:07 »
+1
@ zeamonkey ...only if you choose to put them in the free collection.  You get an option to disable them instead.

@ Gillian ... yes, if it's a much-downloaded image, it surely has remunerative value.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 03:13 by rubyroo »

« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2013, 06:38 »
0
Curiously, on the 'Earnings' page (when you are logged into DT), there is a tab labelled "Free Image Earnings". Why?

cuppacoffee

« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2013, 06:51 »
0
http://www.dreamstime.com/forumm_34234_pg1

"Given the large collection available and being committed to provide an equitable deal, we launch today a subscription pilot program where SFI becomes a freemium platform. After an initial free startup (10 free downloads), the web resolution will remain free for all visitors, while high resolution files will be available subscription-based only. Members opting for paid access will also benefit from attractive discounts on Dreamstime packages, the discount depending on the plan selected. The licenses granted for the images are Limited Royalty Free RF-LL for all images downloaded free of any charge (web resolution) and standard Royalty Free for paid images. The major difference between the two is related to the number of copies allowed: 10,000 for RF-LL and 500,000 for RF.

Plans begin at $15 (1 week & 10 downloads/day) and the royalties are $0.10 (non exclusives) and $0.12 (exclusive images or exclusive contributors). Of course, these royalties refer only to images available on SFI and do not interfere with Dreamstime's royalties.

The project will remain separate of Dreamstime but all sales will be reported in contributors' accounts on Dreamstime..."

« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2013, 06:55 »
0
^^^ Ah __ thanks for that!

aspp

« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2013, 08:29 »
-1
We use free stock images from time to time. Just the other day my partner was asking where she could search for an image which they could use for free.

The poster they wanted the image for is something they did themselves. It will be on their Facebook and also run off on the Xerox. So totally low budget. Looks great.

Plus side is thanks to her the people she works with know that they cannot just use stuff they have found on Google Images. They were not going to buy something for that job either - the alternative would have been Instagram or something shared with them online.

So not a sale for someone - but not a theft from someone else either. ETA: obviously she would not have used a stolen image but nobody else in the office knew that was not ok. And they get into the idea of searching a stock site.

I did not know about the DT free site. Thanks. Bookmarked. Vote me down (eek!) :)

ETA: schools and colleges should require project work to list the legitimate sources and copyright information of content used. In the same way that proper universities have always required a properly formatted and annotated  bibliography. Or else a fail.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 08:37 by aspp »

Pinocchio

« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2013, 08:31 »
0
Why doesn't CEPIC make a comment about the thousands of stock images Google is giving away for free without fair compensation to the owners?


The only comment I'm aware of can be found here http://www.microstockgroup.com/blog-updates/reaction-of-cepic-about-the-getty-google-deal/msg298964/#msg298964 - seems like ancient history now - not that that excuses what iStock did...

Regards

ruxpriencdiam

    This user is banned.
  • Location. Third stone from the sun
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2013, 09:17 »
+7
I dont know who has been blowing smoke up DT's you know what but giving images for free wont help any at all!

All it will do is get all of the leaches looking for free stuff to their site.

If they want more paying customers they need to get rid of the BS similar rejections they have so that the buyers can have more choices!

« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2013, 11:34 »
+1
Blog posting by Gwyn Headley, Managing Director of fotolibra, on DT's "A Million Free Images":

http://blog.fotolibra.com/?p=3517

And, as mentioned in earlier posts on MSG here, DT's policy of requiring opt out for rejected image = free image, and requirement to disable image unsold for 4 years = free image so clearly works against best interest of actual creators of images & photographers in general.
-Ann
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 11:37 by ann »

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2013, 13:49 »
0
Blog posting by Gwyn Headley, Managing Director of fotolibra, on DT's "A Million Free Images":

http://blog.fotolibra.com/?p=3517

And, as mentioned in earlier posts on MSG here, DT's policy of requiring opt out for rejected image = free image, and requirement to disable image unsold for 4 years = free image so clearly works against best interest of actual creators of images & photographers in general.
-Ann

He has argued his points quite well.
On a PoI, does fL vet contributions now? They didn't used to.

Ed

« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2013, 20:46 »
0
Blog posting by Gwyn Headley, Managing Director of fotolibra, on DT's "A Million Free Images":

http://blog.fotolibra.com/?p=3517

And, as mentioned in earlier posts on MSG here, DT's policy of requiring opt out for rejected image = free image, and requirement to disable image unsold for 4 years = free image so clearly works against best interest of actual creators of images & photographers in general.
-Ann

He has argued his points quite well.
On a PoI, does fL vet contributions now? They didn't used to.


They don't currently, but I think the tide is changing.  Fotolibra recently announced a video submission option...and the videos will be vetted.  This will be interesting in that Fotolibra simply doesn't sell based on my experience and the experience I've heard from others.

« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2013, 05:30 »
0
I like the fancy idea of us all giving away our images for free.
And such undermine the whole industry.

And actually, why shouldnt we. We are almost there anyway.

10 cents here and 25 cents there. And the distributors making all kinds of fancy trades with our content.

It can produce a much better feeling when you give a picture away to someone who needs it and he says thanks.
You first:)

« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2013, 23:26 »
0

ETA: schools and colleges should require project work to list the legitimate sources and copyright information of content used. In the same way that proper universities have always required a properly formatted and annotated  bibliography. Or else a fail.

+1.  Requiring students to credit photos as well as text sources would go a long way towards educating the general populace about photo copyrights. 

« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2013, 02:49 »
0

ETA: schools and colleges should require project work to list the legitimate sources and copyright information of content used. In the same way that proper universities have always required a properly formatted and annotated  bibliography. Or else a fail.

+1.  Requiring students to credit photos as well as text sources would go a long way towards educating the general populace about photo copyrights.

IME, plagiarism is a big problem at College and University level and many institutions use anti-plagiarism software that they run assessments through, which has reduced the practice somewhat.

I''m a few years out of being involved in University education now (I was at Senior Lecturer/Assistant Prof level) but I shall have to ask if current anti-plagiarism software picks up non- or wrongly credited images in addition to plagiarised text. This type of software was just coming in at the time I left and I can't remember if it did then.

dbvirago

« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2013, 19:23 »
+1
Searching for something else and stumbled across the link below. It is one of the partners that DT uses for its free images. This is one of the ones I let go free early days at DT. I have long disabled the image, but it still shows on the page. Notice that even though it has my name as the photographer, no link would bring anyone back to my images at DT. Based on this, I see no way that giving my image away would have benefited me at all. If, instead of similar images, there was, more images by this photographer than maybe.  Anyone thinking that free images will drive traffic, check this link.

http://www.free-stockphotos.com/downlaod-free-lighthouse-at-christmas-stock-photos/

cuppacoffee

« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2013, 21:45 »
+2
Searching for something else and stumbled across the link below. It is one of the partners that DT uses for its free images. This is one of the ones I let go free early days at DT. I have long disabled the image, but it still shows on the page. Notice that even though it has my name as the photographer, no link would bring anyone back to my images at DT. Based on this, I see no way that giving my image away would have benefited me at all. If, instead of similar images, there was, more images by this photographer than maybe.  Anyone thinking that free images will drive traffic, check this link.

http://www.free-stockphotos.com/downlaod-free-lighthouse-at-christmas-stock-photos/


I don't think it is a DT partner. It is a wordpress site set up by a contributor there. It is also linked to fotalia and bigstock so I suspect it is promotion for his images. Follow the links and it goes to a portfolio for a person who says they started a free site. Sounds odd to me. http://www.dreamstime.com/ximagination_info
He says in his bio, " O yea.. One more thing, some of my photos are also available for free on my free photos website" and it goes to the link you listed. I would contact DT support.

dbvirago

« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2013, 05:05 »
0
I went to DT and did a forum search. Found this four year old thread: http://www.dreamstime.com/thread_18707
Where an admin says, The images from Dreamstime displayed on the page are among our free images. The page is made using our referral program.

At any rate, I've long since deleted all free images I allowed before I knew better.

Just wanted to point out to those who still wonder that despite what the sites say, there is no value to the photographer in giving away images.

I also remembered something else. I also write, and one of the sites I submit to want pictures as part of the article. Years ago, they had a link to Fotolia free images to select from. No one who writes for that site would ever know who the photographer was or have a reason to buy an image from them or Fotolia.


 

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