MicrostockGroup
Agency Based Discussion => Dreamstime.com => Topic started by: Microstock Posts on April 01, 2018, 11:11
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We all know about the downturn in sales.
Dreamstime says Google is to blame.
Dreamstime Files Lawsuit Against Google Claiming the Search Giant Threatens its Survival (http://www.microstockposts.com/dreamstime-files-lawsuit-against-google-claiming-the-search-giant-threatens-its-survival/)
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Interesting! They'll get nothing, of course, but at least suits like this will start to expose Google's real business practices to daylight. And I think when that happens, Google will make Facebook look like a bunch of choir boys by comparison.
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Google makes fun of everyone, for example with their pseudo algorithm (algori$hm), they need a powerful kick just like Facebook
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SS and FT do the same thing to us. Just sayin'.
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So... do we get X% of whatever they win?
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Dreamstime is its own worst enemy
I wonder how they feel like the little guy being stepped on by the big greedy corporation?
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Of course they'll not win but it just goes to show the search manipulation and algorithm deniers out there that searches are twisted and manipulated.
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Dreamstime claims that they have spent tens of millions of dollars on Google’s advertising and other services, but that “Google only provided its services selectively to benefit itself at Dreamstime’s expense.”
Well, with such an argument, they will go down, given Google makes a separation between its SEA and SEO systems and given that Google SEA's systems (apart from several exceptions), are based on a CPC system corrected with quality indicators. So, no matter how much DT was investing in SEA on Google, there were no reasons for them to be favoured compared to competitors.
Then, to counter this argument, they could try to prove that the Google system is biased, and that they are privileging some advertisers... but they wouldn't be the first ones to try and fail.
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So... do we get X% of whatever they win?
X% of nothing is still nothing. But maybe if you pay for the lawyers, you can insure you get a cut. ;)
Filing a lawsuit is proof of nothing, just that Dreamstime is unhappy. I like the jury trial, that's a smart move. We'll have to see, but I can understand why DT has filed at this point. Sales down, income down, rank down, the future isn't looking to prosperous. If the next quote, from their claim, is true, even more reason to go all in.
"47. Google also plans to enter the online stock photography business segment directly..." That should be interesting if true.
Partnership - adwords with Shutterstock: https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/280120/google-shutterstock-licensing-deal-automatically.html (https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/280120/google-shutterstock-licensing-deal-automatically.html) Down at the bottom, "Google joins AOL, Salesforce and Sprinklr in integrating Shutterstock search capabilities directly into their products." Shouldn't we be seeing an income increase?
Basically, DT is claiming that Google cooks the results to benefit SS and IS and adds Adobe to the group, even though Adobe doesn't pay for the advantage. DT's main market is discounted images. Called "competitive pricing" in the lawsuit. DT says there's a monopoly and anti-trust violations involved because of the way Google treats Dreamstime, because Google profits from the others higher rank. DT says new buyers have declined 30% since the "manipulated" drop in the search ranking. DT's drop from page one and further down has in effect reduced their clicks from the search, 95%. Also "low cost per acquisition advertisements were being removed" for non-compliance while higher cost, similar ads were allowed to stay.
The antitrust part is pretty much general ways that Google is in violation. DT also asserts that "overcharged and over delivered AdWords to
Dreamstime" which isn't the first time I've read a complaint from an advertiser about AdWords costs and contracts. Amusing, if any of this can be that, DT claims unfair removal of ads when SS ran similar ads. When DT wrote to Google to complain, they were ignored. Hey how does that feel? :)
I use Bing for my default search. I enjoy the points and can get gift cards for places, just for doing what I do anyway, which is search the web.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BndrX732/bing-stock-photo-search.jpg)
How's SS doing? Some people have noticed that the drop in sales for us has been connected to the drop in the rank.
SS
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5JDs8zW/ss-alexa-graph-march-2018.png)
DT
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpdMtf6G/dt-alexa-graph-mar-2018.png)
I don't know how much to base on Alexa graphs and I don't have an account, so that's about all I can see.
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I googled "Dreamstime sues Google" and there was nothing recent - mostly the past legal challenges to the way Google behaves. Limiting the search to just the last week didn't improve things. Before concluding Google was burying the news on purpose, I thought I'd try Bing - nothing.
Perhaps suits against Google are so common that none of the business trade rags find this newsworthy? Google's parasitic, but given all the changes they make all the time, it'll be hard to prove that any changes they made that hurt Dreamstime were specifically directed at them.
It may well be that Google's recent changes hurt Dreamstime - and other stock agencies - but Dreamstime doomed itself long before 2015, and they never did better than a perennial #3 in the earnings rankings. The biggest problem, IMO, was their insane pricing policies - way, way too complex. They also had some bizarre games with search rankings on their own site (going back years, to 2007/8) that probably didn't help the customer get the best results.
Given Google's deep pockets and army of lawyers, I can't see anything good coming out of this.
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1.04.
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I've learned something about Google advertising recently because I tried running some ads for print sales. And I've had exchanges with people who know more about it. Many advertisers have concluded that it's a waste of money and that Google is running all sorts of games. You have no way of knowing what you're actually getting for your money, Google can show you any numbers they want, you can't verify anything.
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.
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I've learned something about Google advertising recently because I tried running some ads for print sales. And I've had exchanges with people who know more about it. Many advertisers have concluded that it's a waste of money and that Google is running all sorts of games. You have no way of knowing what you're actually getting for your money, Google can show you any numbers they want, you can't verify anything.
I've heard the same including unusual views and click farms to make Google more money as you use your budget. Same 3 results as others but using dogpile I hit this one https://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/candce/5:2018cv01910/324533/ nothing more. Dreamstime.com, LLC v. Google, LLC Put that into Bing and many.
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I've learned something about Google advertising recently because I tried running some ads for print sales. And I've had exchanges with people who know more about it. Many advertisers have concluded that it's a waste of money and that Google is running all sorts of games. You have no way of knowing what you're actually getting for your money, Google can show you any numbers they want, you can't verify anything.
I've heard the same including unusual views and click farms to make Google more money as you use your budget. Same 3 results as others but using dogpile I hit this one https://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/candce/5:2018cv01910/324533/ (https://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/candce/5:2018cv01910/324533/) nothing more. Dreamstime.com, LLC v. Google, LLC Put that into Bing and many.
All docket listings = https://www.bing.com/search?form=MOZPSB&pc=MOZO&q=Dreamstime.com%2C+LLC+v.+Google%2C+LLC (https://www.bing.com/search?form=MOZPSB&pc=MOZO&q=Dreamstime.com%2C+LLC+v.+Google%2C+LLC) only news comes from us. Does that say anything about, how little the other news media cares about Microstock, Dreamstime, or just another Google lawsuit?
Good find Microstock Posts!
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Poor DT tries to earn money from big fat G.
World is very predictive.
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Getting close to a verdict..
"U.S. District Judge William Alsup heard about an hour of argument on Google's motion to dismiss Dreamstime's suit alleging its stock images were intentionally ranked below those of rivals..."
https://www.law360.com/competition/articles/1080298/stock-photo-co-gets-one-shot-at-google-antitrust-suit (https://www.law360.com/competition/articles/1080298/stock-photo-co-gets-one-shot-at-google-antitrust-suit)
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If Dreamstime wins do we get 'Back Pay' 8)
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Sammy! we are not alone in our theories! right now there is a distributor collecting evidence and in contact with Lawyers to see if there are grounds to file a suit against SS for exactly what we have been talking about in dozens of threads, stopping photographers images and earnings or what we call capping earnings!
btw I'm not a member of that distributor, just saying!
Our entire business may it be micro or anything to do with Royalty free lends itself to all kind of skull duggery thats for sure!
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Even assuming* earnings are capped at SS, there's a fundamental difference between Google allegedly damaging a third party (Dreamstime) to favour their new found partner (Getty), and SS allegedly controlling sales, despicable but probably not illegal. That said, this is just my opinion, I am not a lawyer and I would like to be proven wrong.
*I am still unconvinced, but this is not the point: as you said there are already many other threads.
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Even assuming* earnings are capped at SS, there's a fundamental difference between Google allegedly damaging a third party (Dreamstime) to favour their new found partner (Getty), and SS allegedly controlling sales, despicable but probably not illegal. That said, this is just my opinion, I am not a lawyer and I would like to be proven wrong.
*I am still unconvinced, but this is not the point: as you said there are already many other threads.
That's because any thread is a chance for Derek to write something disparaging about SS and accuse them of "skull duggery" of some sort. That never changes. :)
I can't prove that something doesn't exist, we can't prove a negative, so proving Derek/Chris wrong is impossible. Proving you wrong, is impossible. The idea is, the person making the claim needs to present evidence and facts that show their claims are a fact and true. (unless it's a microstock conspiracy...) ;)
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Sammy! we are not alone in our theories! right now there is a distributor collecting evidence and in contact with Lawyers to see if there are grounds to file a suit against SS for exactly what we have been talking about in dozens of threads, stopping photographers images and earnings or what we call capping earnings!
btw I'm not a member of that distributor, just saying!
Our entire business may it be micro or anything to do with Royalty free lends itself to all kind of skull duggery thats for sure!
So what happens if the evidence they collect points to a safety net not a cap and is consequently removed and their sales collapse, will you be more happy with this more equitable state of affairs? Be careful what you ask for!
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Sammy! we are not alone in our theories! right now there is a distributor collecting evidence and in contact with Lawyers to see if there are grounds to file a suit against SS for exactly what we have been talking about in dozens of threads, stopping photographers images and earnings or what we call capping earnings!
btw I'm not a member of that distributor, just saying!
Our entire business may it be micro or anything to do with Royalty free lends itself to all kind of skull duggery thats for sure!
So what happens if the evidence they collect points to a safety net not a cap and is consequently removed and their sales collapse, will you be more happy with this more equitable state of affairs? Be careful what you ask for!
I dont care! I'm out of it!...IMO there is nothing that can make the contributors situation worse or better! about DT and Google? it was bloody obvious Google somehow would screw the whole thing so I really dont know what DT was ever thinking about??
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Anyone have a link that's not pay? Or do I need to read more than what's already in the brief document?
This is also interesting:
Companies
Getty Images Inc.
Google Inc.
Shutterstock Inc.
Yahoo! Inc.
"A California federal judge on Thursday said he will give stock photography company Dreamstime.com LLC one shot at a sprawling antitrust suit alleging Google LLC stifles access to Dreamstime's images in search results, giving it the option to amend its complaint before he rules on a dismissal bid or submit the filing knowing "that would be it."
Docket log here: https://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/candce/3:2018cv01910/324533 (https://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/candce/3:2018cv01910/324533)
Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff
Interesting also Certificate of Interested Entities by Dreamstime.com, LLC identifying Other Affiliate Serban Enache, Other Affiliate Dragos Jianu, Other Affiliate Jeff Prescott for Dreamstime.com, LLC.
Interesting Alsup is a cameras in the courtroom judge. I didn't follow up how to watch. http://cand.uscourts.gov/cameras (http://cand.uscourts.gov/cameras)
If you want to read the complaint, I just posted it here on one of my Cobweb sites: http://crapstock.com/ (http://crapstock.com/)
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If Dreamstime wins do we get 'Back Pay' 8)
In your dreams, but not in your dreamstime…
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An update here.
Dreamstime’s Antitrust Claim against Google Dismissed (http://www.microstockposts.com/dreamstimes-antitrust-claim-against-google-dismissed/)
This is not over yet. Dreamstime may still win the Breach of Contract claim. Stranger things have happened.
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I wouldn’t bank on it. google has more money than gawd to squash this stuff, payoff judges, etc.
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$50 Million for Adwords? No wonder we only get a small cut.
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So... do we get X% of whatever they win?
X% of nothing is still nothing. But maybe if you pay for the lawyers, you can insure you get a cut. ;)
Filing a lawsuit is proof of nothing, just that Dreamstime is unhappy. I like the jury trial, that's a smart move. We'll have to see, but I can understand why DT has filed at this point. Sales down, income down, rank down, the future isn't looking to prosperous. If the next quote, from their claim, is true, even more reason to go all in.
"47. Google also plans to enter the online stock photography business segment directly..." That should be interesting if true.
Partnership - adwords with Shutterstock: https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/280120/google-shutterstock-licensing-deal-automatically.html (https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/280120/google-shutterstock-licensing-deal-automatically.html) Down at the bottom, "Google joins AOL, Salesforce and Sprinklr in integrating Shutterstock search capabilities directly into their products." Shouldn't we be seeing an income increase?
Basically, DT is claiming that Google cooks the results to benefit SS and IS and adds Adobe to the group, even though Adobe doesn't pay for the advantage. DT's main market is discounted images. Called "competitive pricing" in the lawsuit. DT says there's a monopoly and anti-trust violations involved because of the way Google treats Dreamstime, because Google profits from the others higher rank. DT says new buyers have declined 30% since the "manipulated" drop in the search ranking. DT's drop from page one and further down has in effect reduced their clicks from the search, 95%. Also "low cost per acquisition advertisements were being removed" for non-compliance while higher cost, similar ads were allowed to stay.
The antitrust part is pretty much general ways that Google is in violation. DT also asserts that "overcharged and over delivered AdWords to
Dreamstime" which isn't the first time I've read a complaint from an advertiser about AdWords costs and contracts. Amusing, if any of this can be that, DT claims unfair removal of ads when SS ran similar ads. When DT wrote to Google to complain, they were ignored. Hey how does that feel? :)
I use Bing for my default search. I enjoy the points and can get gift cards for places, just for doing what I do anyway, which is search the web.
(https://s5.postimg.org/6qfwd7b87/bing_stock_photo_search.jpg)
How's SS doing? Some people have noticed that the drop in sales for us has been connected to the drop in the rank.
SS
(https://s5.postimg.org/hq65lrfmv/ss_alexa_graph_march_2018.png)
DT
(https://s5.postimg.org/6dtk3yjsn/dt_alexa_graph_mar_2018.png)
I don't know how much to base on Alexa graphs and I don't have an account, so that's about all I can see.
Already happened (sort of) with their fast growing Audio Library in Youtube.
They put the space and say: free to promote your work artists (music industry)
Free legal music to you customers (call them creators or whatever you believe...)
Google knows one thing for sure to first offer for free and then collect on a payed basis.
As a newbie in stock footage I know nothing, especially on images and profit.
But as an average user, i know this. Google first gatheres and then sell (by giving a cut).
If all those backup cloud pictures in Google account reach a possible milestone,
Why not google send a generic: profit from your pictures in Photos!
Select and sell those that you want! With face recognitions, here are some suggested
Clients that might be interested: schoolmates, the bar you posed, your vacation climbing clip..
Etc. Google as a compliment does a really good work on human analysis.
I remember using Picasa ages ago and clearly face detected 97-98% persons in the picture.
Nowadays, guess that they can do better. Way much more better! (For them, not us...)
Edit, i wanted to quote the Google entering stock phrase! Silly me!
As a second thought, if Google connect me with the bar owner I shot a selfie,
Send him a sample and suggest him/her to make an offer?
No need to be a contributor or anything.
Instant profit, automated and with no "i am shamed to ask if my photo values anything..."
Where there is extra offer, a saturated market, automation enters.
Kind of industrie. If we produced 10 tomatoes we make them dinner.
If we produce 10tons a day we need automation. And Google is the king on that...
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An update on this.
Judge Dismisses Google’s 1st Amendment Defense in Dreamstime’s Contract Breach Case (http://www.microstockposts.com/judge-dismisses-googles-1st-amendment-defense-in-dreamstimes-contract-breach-case/)
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This isn't done, or is it?
https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2019/06/contract-breach-claims-against-google-survive-first-amendment-defense-dreamstime-v-google.htm
Cutting to the end: "I’m pretty sure the DOJ won’t be investigating Dreamstime’s problem. Instead, this case reminds me a lot of the e-Ventures case, also involving allegations of competitive downranking/de-indexing. e-Ventures survived Google’s motion to dismiss but then got shut down on summary judgment. I think it’s pretty clear Dreamstime will suffer the same fate, especially given the low odds it will find anything close to the smoking gun it seeks. Unfortunately, it will take lots of money on discovery to reach this seemingly inevitable outcome."
Just to add who wrote this opinion, Eric Goldman is a Professor of Law at Santa Clara University School of Law. He also co-directs the school’s High Tech Law Institute and supervises the school’s Privacy Law Certificate. Previously, he was an Assistant Professor at Marquette University Law School in Milwaukee, WI. Before that, I was General Counsel of Epinions, Inc. in Brisbane, CA and, before that, a technology transactions and Internet lawyer at Cooley Godward LLP in Palo Alto, CA.
Somehow I lean towards, his opinion might be right?
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This isn't done, or is it?
It's done now.
Verdict in Favor of Google leaves Dreamstime looking bad (https://www.microstockposts.com/verdict-in-favor-of-google-leaves-dreamstime-looking-bad/)
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This isn't done, or is it?
It's done now.
Verdict in Favor of Google leaves Dreamstime looking bad (https://www.microstockposts.com/verdict-in-favor-of-google-leaves-dreamstime-looking-bad/)
Thanks for keeping up on this, I was wondering how that went.
"After successive rulings whittled the case down, all that was left was a breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing plus associated 17200 claims on the theory that “Google fraudulently concealed the reasons for Dreamstime’s search ranking drop in order to boost its advertising revenue.” Unsurprisingly, discovery did not produce anything damning.”"
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/3:2018cv01910/324533/184/ (https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/3:2018cv01910/324533/184/)
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The big ones almost always crush the weakest ones.
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The big ones almost always crush the weakest ones.
Did you read the decision from the judge?
"Dreamstime’s fraud claims fail for one simple reason. Nobody at Google, either on the advertising or the organic side, ever believed that Dreamstime’s ranking dropped as a result of the update to Google’s salient terms algorithm."
Try page 11:
Although both sides now agree that Google did not deliberately demote Dreamstime’s search ranking, Dreamstime insists that a late 2015 update to one of Google’s algorithms did cause Dreamstime’s search-ranking drop. For its part, Google insists that the update is extremely unlikely to be the explanation for any ranking changes Dreamstime may have experienced.
So DT should win because he's the little guy or because there's no case and no law was broken?
I wouldn’t bank on it. google has more money than gawd to squash this stuff, payoff judges, etc.
Yeah, that's it, the judge was paid off. ;D
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/3:2018cv01910/324533/184/
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Yeah, that's it, the judge was paid off. ;D
You say that like it never happens. :D
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Yeah, that's it, the judge was paid off. ;D
You say that like it never happens. :D
Never say never?
Better yet, DTs argument was "they changed the algorithm". ;D
For the Cliff Notes version: DT said they changed the search, to favor the competition. G says, the DT website and organic search was what caused the rank to drop. DT spent millions in adwords and still didn't recover the rank.
I think the number was 12.6 million dollars. That doesn't sound small to me when DT pays me 35c for a sub download?
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I think the number was 12.6 million dollars. That doesn't sound small to me when DT pays me 35c for a sub download?
I wonder where they got that kind of money to both pay for these adwords and for this expensive lawsuit. Fighting google in court certainly wasn't going to be cheap?
The conspiracy theorist in me wants to suspect if DT misreports sales to contributors. Because clearly it's a pretty widespread consensus that people aren't making a lot of money there. Which means DT isn't making a lot of money either. But they're still up and haven't gone under (yet) and that must cost a lot of money too. So either they have a lot of highly generous benefactors funding them or they aren't paying contributors what they ought to be paying them. How do we find out anyway? Unlike SS, where there's a quarterly circus where you know how much they made and how little they paid you, all of DT's sales statistics are under wraps.
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or they aren't paying contributors what they ought to be paying them. How do we find out anyway? Unlike SS, where there's a quarterly circus where you know how much they made and how little they paid you, all of DT's sales statistics are under wraps.
People would find their images being used, online or in the real world, without seeing the sales reflected in their Dreamstime dashboard.
And that didn't happen until now, I think they play that quite fair.
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People would find their images being used, online or in the real world, without seeing the sales reflected in their Dreamstime dashboard.
And that didn't happen until now, I think they play that quite fair.
Most contributors have their portfolio spread across a number of different agencies. If your picture is on many different sites, you can't specifically point a finger at one particular microstock site saying your image was downloaded there. That explanation only works for exclusive DT contributors (are there really any these days?) or pictures that have been made exclusive on the site and there are ways to make sure those sales get reported while others who aren't exclusive don't. Not saying DT is doing it but my eyebrows get raised when they spend so much money on these things when evidently they aren't making so much and don't disclose sales data or the money they are actually making.
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I think the number was 12.6 million dollars. That doesn't sound small to me when DT pays me 35c for a sub download?
I wonder where they got that kind of money to both pay for these adwords and for this expensive lawsuit. Fighting google in court certainly wasn't going to be cheap?
The conspiracy theorist in me wants to suspect if DT misreports sales to contributors. Because clearly it's a pretty widespread consensus that people aren't making a lot of money there. Which means DT isn't making a lot of money either. But they're still up and haven't gone under (yet) and that must cost a lot of money too. So either they have a lot of highly generous benefactors funding them or they aren't paying contributors what they ought to be paying them. How do we find out anyway? Unlike SS, where there's a quarterly circus where you know how much they made and how little they paid you, all of DT's sales statistics are under wraps.
None of ever got paid what we should, that's without the fraud. Agency takes 80% we get 20% (that's a big number, overall) DT paid us, on average, 35c-85c a DL and what did they license them for?
More like this. Say I made $100 on DT? They made $400. Now take that and monthly and thousands of good contributors, the numbers get pretty big.
After reading every document, from DT and the court cases, it appears that DT was dropping and dropping in the search. He spent millions to bring that back up, but the agency was losing rank. DT hired a SEO specialist, to bring them back, and that still didn't work. Maybe the big agencies and the market had changed? But his answer was, Google got more money from the top agencies, so they conspired to lower DT.
The claims were not shown to be true. He lost. Better Call Saul... DT went for the injury claim, and could have won big. I sure hope his lawyers worked on a contingency basis?