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Author Topic: Incorrect keywords DT  (Read 31814 times)

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dbvirago

« Reply #75 on: March 02, 2010, 16:40 »
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Yeah, someone is on a tear at DT. I had a batch of these back when they first started. I replied to all as the flagged keyword was appropriate and never heard or saw anything else about it. Six months later, I have had a dozen flagged today and yesterday. First one I opened, called Front Door and Umbrella is a picture of a front door and an umbrella. Keyword flagged is umbrella. I closed it and ignored the rest. Not worth the trouble. Flag it, don't flag it, keep it, delete it, whatever. I'm not going to spend time justifying a top 10 seller that's been on the site for three years.


« Reply #76 on: March 02, 2010, 16:58 »
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...but I don't understand why they would pay someone 2 cents to flag keywords. I would think that would create misuse. Why in the world did they do that?

My words, they just want to pay DT members less than what they would have to pay for their own staff for taking care of the problem.

As somebody mentioned before: Also deduct 2 cents if the flagged keyword was indeed a correct one. Then the flaggers will have to think 3 times before submitting their report and refrain from flagging unsure keywords.

Yes I 100% agree. I just received about 30 more notifications for images mostly flagged for DIRECTLY RELEVANT keywords. After I forwarded examples of that to support, I received the same reply as been posted here earlier, to the word. I think it would be a smart course of action for Dreamstime to accept that this keyword reporting program has proven to be a failure and just dump it instead of  waisting time and resources on it. Better concentrate on marketing strategies and advertising...

macrosaur

    This user is banned.
« Reply #77 on: March 02, 2010, 18:10 »
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DT is a fly by night company.

maybe they outsourced to India and the indians there expect "queen's english" in the keywords ?

RT


« Reply #78 on: March 02, 2010, 18:49 »
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Has anyone returned the favor, and reviewed a few of the flaggers images?  

The four I had today and the five from yesterday were both from people with zero images in their portfolio!

Today's classics included a photo of a boy flying a kite flagged for the word "kite" and an image of a pen writing the words 'Contact us' flagged for the phrase ...well I bet you can guess  ::)

I think DT's experiment of getting a room full of chimpanzees to go through the keyword database has backfired a bit and they should set them back on their task of writing War and Peace.

« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2010, 18:58 »
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I would like to see all the micro-engines accept keyword phrases rather than breaking up all the data into single strings. It seems like it would be the most logical solution.

In another post somebody mentioned getting flagged for the color blue and their subject was a blue collar worker. If we were able to use the keyword phrase "blue collar worker" instead of "blue", "collar", "worker" there would be no confusion in the flagging process plus there should be an improvement in search results for the buyers. Is the buyer looking for my photos of a person with brown hair and blue eyes or blue hair and brown eyes .. with single keywords there is no way of knowing.

« Reply #80 on: March 02, 2010, 19:21 »
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I would like to see all the micro-engines accept keyword phrases rather than breaking up all the data into single strings. It seems like it would be the most logical solution.

In another post somebody mentioned getting flagged for the color blue and their subject was a blue collar worker. If we were able to use the keyword phrase "blue collar worker" instead of "blue", "collar", "worker" there would be no confusion in the flagging process plus there should be an improvement in search results for the buyers. Is the buyer looking for my photos of a person with brown hair and blue eyes or blue hair and brown eyes .. with single keywords there is no way of knowing.

Correct thinking but tricky approach.

"blue collar worker" works at Shutterstock for instance if you put that term in quotation marks. Still I would like to keep the three keywords individually because not every buyer is typing "blue collar worker".

I think in most cases the buyer will type in the term without the quotation marks. So if an image still gets reported for "blue" or "collar" and the reviewer thinks: "Hey that's right, there is no color "blue" and no "collar" and removes these terms you are left to those buyers who make the effort of typing in "blue collar worker" with quotation marks and all other searches without quotation marks will direct the buyers to all images that haven't been flagged before and still carry the individual terms.

This is the problem that important keywords may be stripped form our images decreasing the chance to find the correct buyers who do search for these terms but instead we get (partially) flagged by our competitors who simply want to move our images out of the search results.

I hope this occurred to you all already...?

« Reply #81 on: March 02, 2010, 19:41 »
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I got a bunch of them today, too, and all from just two people. 

Several were on photos of angel food cake, which were uploaded when we couldn't hyphenate words and the search engine was designed to put the two words together in a search and bring up the image.  They changed the system  :o and now I have to go through and do....what?  I tried changing it to angelfood, as it is in similar images, but the system wouldn't take it.  Do buyers search with hyphens?  Oh, dear, what's a girl to do.

DT sometimes seems like a site doing its best to make itself crash.  Oh, dear, oh, dear.

lisafx

« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2010, 19:44 »
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This is the problem that important keywords may be stripped form our images decreasing the chance to find the correct buyers who do search for these terms but instead we get (partially) flagged by our competitors who simply want to move our images out of the search results.

I hope this occurred to you all already...?

It's definitely occurred to me.  I took your advice and wrote DT support and this was one of the points I made in the e-mail. 

I think Dreamstime's intention to clean up keywords is a good one.  It's just the implementation that seems to have some problems.

« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2010, 19:53 »
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My latest comment flags (from 2007) are over the keywords "kangaroo" (shot on Kangaroo Island in South Australia, "island" (shot on Waiheke Island in New Zealand) and, my favorite, "yellow car" (an isolated "falling rock zone" sign that is yellow and has a picture of a car being hit by falling rocks).  This has long since passed ridiculous.

Updated:  I sent a message to DT and got the following response:
Quote
Thank  you  for  contacting  Dreamstime.
Please ignore reports that are irrelevant. If the image info indeed requires adjustments, we recommend you to correct. We are aware there are instances of incorrect reports or incorrect usage of the flag icon therefore we kindly ask you to ignore any flag that is not relevant for your files.
Let us know if we can be of further assistance.

Civil and to the point.

But does the flagging of an image has any negative effects on it?  Like those keywords being ignored in a search?

I received a flag in an image for kangaroo also, it has no kangaroo in it, but a "kangaroo ball'.  Again, the problem of composed keywords.  It was flagged by a member from Australia, so perhaps she was looking for kangaroos and did not like to see an improper image in the results.  She is right, but I am not wrong either.

« Reply #84 on: March 02, 2010, 19:55 »
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...I think Dreamstime's intention to clean up keywords is a good one.  It's just the implementation that seems to have some problems.

I believe it's the approach how to get rid of spamming.

First off, this system is not preventing spammers from initially spamming their keywords otherwise reviewers would catch on to those EVERY SINGLE TIME. As this is not possible (we're all humans/usually are not getting paid enough for what we do  ::) ) there will be spamming all the time.

Secondly, paying flaggers is definitely wrong. Since they won't deduct 2 cents for "false flags" the flaggers have nothing to fear.

If they simply don't want or can not implement a disambiguation system then go ahead and lock all new images to begin with. This will significantly reduce spamming.

Take all the 2 cents per correctly reported spam and invest it into reviewers professionally checking our images and not some numb nuts who never learned English yet think they can report keywords.

Plenty of long standing contributors have made the experience of being flagged unnecessarily. Such a waste of time (and money).

I'm telling you - we all have to carry the costs for these flaggers. Bye bye commission raise 2011 !!!

« Reply #85 on: March 02, 2010, 21:41 »
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Has anyone returned the favor, and reviewed a few of the flaggers images? 

I was tempted . . . but no i didn't  ;D

« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2010, 22:08 »
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Serban proudly announced:"We are 2 million"
Just curious how many of accounts have been opened by freebies' and 2cts keywords spamming hunters. Maybe only reason of this flagging system is to have as many as possible registered user?   

« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2010, 22:53 »
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DT sometimes seems like a site doing its best to make itself crash.  Oh, dear, oh, dear.

my thoughts exactly:)

« Reply #88 on: March 02, 2010, 23:09 »
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For me its seems that they have new marketing campain adds in poor countries like "Find wrong keyword" and earn money?!? (1 or 2 cents are big there) but they dont tell them that min payout is 100$
I have also raising numbers of Keyword comments one day 1 next 3 next 5???? and only in one case it is real case about that keyword (one keyword).
I erase it and add 3 or 5 more which I dont add because of my ignorance from this time...  ;D

« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2010, 05:04 »
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And the problem is... ?
You get a flag/commment for bad keywords.
Next check all your keywords on reported images.
Remove irrelevant (if any).
Job done.

What's the big story?
And why is this move considered suicidal?


I have quite a few images at IStock with 5 keywords only.
Bare minimum allowed.
Had it been possible I would have used even less.
That's how much I hate spam.
Let them do it, errors aside, this is for the best.

« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2010, 07:17 »
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It is funny to see that to fight spam they use spam ::)

« Reply #91 on: March 03, 2010, 07:34 »
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This flagging system is in wrong hands when given to the public. Some people has no vision how the keywording works. Most of the flaggers do look at a single point and doesn't understand the whole. Others has no idea what is indirectly related to the image and what is really off subject.
Annoying examples:
- my car wheel image was flagged because of 'car' and 'black' words. 80% of the buyers searched for 'car wheel'. The poor flagger searched after 'black car' and voila, there is a wheel, nowhere the needed black car! He/she saw only one point, doesn't imagine that the system splits apart the words and actually the car is related to wheel, this is how the system works, since DT doesn't have controlled vocabulary.
- stupid example of a flagging of a beach illustration flagged on word 'beach'. I don't believe anymore in tales 'somebody accidentally flagged' because of the countless examples of this.

I had some images with wrong keywords, thanks for flagging, I removed the bad words, but it's very annoying that 90% of flaggings are wrong, steals extra time to reply why is the flagging incorrect and contact support to ignore the flagging state. I think, now support @DT is flooded with these stupid messages, also stealing precious time from them.

I think, this keywording stuff must be made by people who really understands the system, not by the public.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 11:40 by icefront »

macrosaur

    This user is banned.
« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2010, 08:04 »
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It is funny to see that to fight spam they use spam ::)

in serious agencies anyone spamming would be booted out without any further questioning.

DT is obviously not a serious agency.

« Reply #93 on: March 03, 2010, 09:08 »
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And the problem is... ?
You get a flag/commment for bad keywords.
Next check all your keywords on reported images.
Remove irrelevant (if any).
Job done.
...

Eirann, please do understand that there are contributors with more than 10, 20 or 50 times more images in their portfolio than you do.

With up to 40 or 50 flagged images per day this is a major inconvenience. These photographers don't make a living by double checking invalid flags from Dreamstime.

Today, I found one of my best sellers reported AND my keywords locked for the keyword "ski" showing a skyline with 2 jet skiers in the foreground. Not to mention that the keyword "jet" was also removed.

I've made more money with that image than many photographers will ever make with their portfolios and now someone received a whopping 2 cents for reporting a valid keyword pushing my image out of the search for a water sport in front of a major tropical skyline. This is sick.

« Reply #94 on: March 03, 2010, 09:44 »
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Has anyone returned the favor, and reviewed a few of the flaggers images? 

Yes, and then it got embarrassing because it turned out that the "flag" was two years old and the one-time newbie who had flagged them had a) forgotten about flagging them b) grown out of such behaviour c) thought he was being persecuted because he had got piles of antique "flags", too.

« Reply #95 on: March 03, 2010, 09:57 »
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@Click - Click,
typical.
Since I haven't started uploading in 1963 (or thereabouts) my portfolio is small.
And that's the first thing you come up with.  
Anything else?
What about the quality of my images?
Are they ok with you? Any complains?
Now, that beeing said, let's try to leave my portfolio out of the debate and return to the subject on hand.

There are photographers who have portfolios 50 times larger than mine.
Well, I'm sorry to say, but I imagine the number of bad keywords growing proportionally.
Is it not a good idea to clean them up? After all they're the ones who cover most searches.

And I still can't see the problem.
Don't have the time to edit them all?
Let admins do it.
Errors?
Report them.
Losing a few sales?
Were they legitimate in the first place?

I believe cleaning keywords is a good idea, hassle or not.
And you haven't managed to convice me otherwise, regardless of the thousands of images in your portfolio.

« Reply #96 on: March 03, 2010, 10:06 »
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Looks like DT is shooting themselves in the foot. Screwing up keywords on good images will result in drop of sales - not just for us, for them as well. I wish they'd stop being stubborn and drop the entire thing.
I am receiving more than 30 comments a day for flagged images, and 90% are irrelevant. My portfolio is over 10, 000 images, so I figure I'll keep receiving those for a while.  Dreamstime admins,  please hear me - I will not waste my time going through all of these comments every day. My time is better spent elsewhere. If you remove relevant keywords from my images, wiping out years of hard work, you will not only reduce yours and mine sales, you'll also give me a good reason to stop uploading to DT.
The problem with Dreamstime is that it looks like they still stick with the crowd-sourcing idea - for both images and now keywords - and this kind of thinking is getting more and more outdated today. Microstock has matured - we have serious professional buyers and serious professional contributors. It's basically a new RF stock business. For the crowds, there is Flickr and other places like that, where they can share and interact and comment on each other and don't have to pay. But you can not rely on amateurs anymore in microstock - yeah, many of us and many of the site started that way, 5 years ago or more, but times have changed. Not seeing this and not being flexible in your ideas is not good for the business. Let's hope DT won't have to learn that lesson the hard way. 

« Reply #97 on: March 03, 2010, 10:15 »
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@Click - Click,
typical.
Since I haven't started uploading in 1963 (or thereabouts) my portfolio is small.
And that's the first thing you come up with.  
Anything else?
What about the quality of my images?
Are they ok with you? Any complains?
Now, that beeing said, let's try to leave my portfolio out of the debate and return to the subject on hand.

There are photographers who have portfolios 50 times larger than mine.
Well, I'm sorry to say, but I imagine the number of bad keywords growing proportionally.
Is it not a good idea to clean them up? After all they're the ones who cover most searches.

And I still can't see the problem.
Don't have the time to edit them all?
Let admins do it.
Errors?
Report them.
Losing a few sales?
Were they legitimate in the first place?

I believe cleaning keywords is a good idea, hassle or not.
And you haven't managed to convice me otherwise, regardless of the thousands of images in your portfolio.

If you would have followed this and the parallel topic which was merged into this one you'd realize that nobody is against reporting spammed keywords.

Removing spam is good - I hope this clarifies it for you!

It is not good to have thousands of images reported ALHTOUGH the keywords ARE CORRECT!!!

This is the problem we're discussing here that CORRECT KEYWORDS are being flagged BY ABUSERS OF THE SYSTEM!!!

Just because you wouldn't have to go through hundreds and hundreds of images IF they WOULD be flagged doesn't mean that OTHER contributors HAVE TO DO SO.

Regardless of how whiny you think we are - we are making a living off of this and if relevant keywords are being stripped from our images it's my *CENSORED* right to voice concerns about this system.

And if you haven't gotten my point yet!

SPAM IS BAD!!!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 10:18 by click_click »

RT


« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2010, 10:26 »
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Looks like DT is shooting themselves in the foot. Screwing up keywords on good images will result in drop of sales - not just for us, for them as well. I wish they'd stop being stubborn and drop the entire thing.
I am receiving more than 30 comments a day for flagged images, and 90% are irrelevant. My portfolio is over 10, 000 images, so I figure I'll keep receiving those for a while.  Dreamstime admins,  please hear me - I will not waste my time going through all of these comments every day. My time is better spent elsewhere. If you remove relevant keywords from my images, wiping out years of hard work, you will not only reduce yours and mine sales, you'll also give me a good reason to stop uploading to DT.
The problem with Dreamstime is that it looks like they still stick with the crowd-sourcing idea - for both images and now keywords - and this kind of thinking is getting more and more outdated today. Microstock has matured - we have serious professional buyers and serious professional contributors. It's basically a new RF stock business. For the crowds, there is Flickr and other places like that, where they can share and interact and comment on each other and don't have to pay. But you can not rely on amateurs anymore in microstock - yeah, many of us and many of the site started that way, 5 years ago or more, but times have changed. Not seeing this and not being flexible in your ideas is not good for the business. Let's hope DT won't have to learn that lesson the hard way. 

Well said, but it will probably fall on deaf ears.

lisafx

« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2010, 10:42 »
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And the problem is... ?
SNIP
Let them do it, errors aside, this is for the best.

Well, to answer your question, the errors are 90% of the flags, just as Elena is reporting.  You can't really put them aside.  

No one is defending spam here. If you think that's what's going on, you are missing the point.(please refer to Click Click's post above subtly clarifying this point ;D)

  If 90% of the flags reported are actually relevant and essential to the image then this is a seriously flawed system. And as Elena and others point out, it is damaging to Dreamstime on several levels:

1. It costs them money to pay reviewers to sort through all the flags, including the vast majority which are in error.
2. Correcting the errors costs contributors a lot of time, which results in lost productivity producing and uploading salable images.
3. Inevitably some bad flags will be approved and relevant words removed.  This will result in the following:
    a) reduced accuracy of search results = disgruntled buyers
    b) reduction of legitimate sales for contributors = disgruntled contributors
4. Ultimately buyers will migrate to sites that are not removing vast swaths of images from relevant searches, and contributors will focus their uploading efforts on sites that actually sell their work.

Personally, I have made no secret of the fact that DT has always been my favorite site.  But over the last year or so DT has fallen from 16-17% of my income to a consistent 12%.  As my numbers drop there I have less and less incentive to commit time to responding to DOZENS of inaccurate keyflags a day.  And like Elena, if my sales plummet further because of essential keywords removed from hundreds or thousands of my images, I will no longer have any incentive to upload there.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 10:46 by lisafx »


 

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