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Author Topic: Fotolia D-Day (Deactivation Day) - May,1  (Read 181430 times)

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« Reply #1450 on: June 09, 2014, 03:27 »
+22
It's not six million, it's seven million. It was six million a week or two ago. Seven million is a quarter of the collection, and probably the best quarter of it. Well to be exact it is 24% (which is not the 21% that Mike somehow calculates).

Sure, Fotolia could make it compulsory to participate but maybe they are afraid they would simply lose 24% of their entire collection if they do that to people who have made the effort to opt out. Maybe they don't want even more bad publicity alerting even more people to what they are up to.

Mike, why are you constantly trying to sabotage this effort? It's as if you want Fotolia to succeed in further devaluing the market.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 03:33 by BaldricksTrousers »


« Reply #1451 on: June 09, 2014, 05:00 »
+1
I am wondering how much bigger the difference of images count between Fotolia and DPC would be if no one would have deleted images from Fotolia or stopped uploading to them, but just have opted out from DPC instead. Currently I am not uploading to Fotolia, but this makes me think if uploading to Fotolia and being opted out from DPC would make DPC less attractive for the buyers, as the images count difference between Fotolia and DPC would grow bigger.

« Reply #1452 on: June 09, 2014, 05:46 »
+6
Fotolia is the largest European agency and the strongest here in Germany. Many people earn more on Fotolia than on Shutterstock or istock or even both combined. Fotolia also pays out up to 63 % to their exclusive artists. Even at my lowly bronze level I would already be earning 40% with higher pricing if I was fully artist exclusive.

So this is a really major player for many of us and people will not just walk away.

Here in Germany Fotolia is also reaching out directly, in the German forum people are reporting that fotolia is calling up many artists and not just top level people to ask about DPC and invite them back in. They also ask about Fotolia in general etc...but I am not hearing that anyone was convinced and opted back in. Maybe some do but dont share that in the forums, I dont know.

There is a very active stock artist community around Fotolia, they are deeply involved in "fotocommunity" the German version of flickr.

Fotolia even has a gallery in Berlin that showcases the work of their artists.

Many artists would love to see more attention given to Fotolia and to have Fotolias presence expanded to the US, not DPC.

I understand that for many US artists Fotolia only brings in a negligible income, so giving it up completely is easy. But for the artists here the situation is different. Shutterstock, istock or anyone else is not bringing in the same level of income.

Personally, I have opted out of DPC, but I will continue to work with Fotolia, inspite of the known communication problems and surprising changes. But I dont think that what they do is worse than istock/getty (they are still planning to pay for content...) and as an independent my risk is spread over several sites.

I have content for many price levels and many different agencies. Fotolia is in the "normal micro stock" group. I have more specific content for macro sites and lower value content for extremely cheap sites, or sites I am still new to and dont know what to expect.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 05:51 by cobalt »

« Reply #1453 on: June 09, 2014, 06:09 »
+9
I am wondering how much bigger the difference of images count between Fotolia and DPC would be if no one would have deleted images from Fotolia or stopped uploading to them, but just have opted out from DPC instead. Currently I am not uploading to Fotolia, but this makes me think if uploading to Fotolia and being opted out from DPC would make DPC less attractive for the buyers, as the images count difference between Fotolia and DPC would grow bigger.

I can't imagine that any customers care.  Some of us may obsess over the relative numbers, but buyers will only be concerned with the quality and quantity of product and the quality of service.  As long as they find a reasonable selection of images that meet their needs, why would the relative size of DPC vs. the Fotolia Mother Ship matter to them?

Me, I'm opted out from DPC and continuing to delete my Fotolia port one image at a time.  I can't change buyers' behavior, but at least I can avoid supporting those who work against my interests.

« Reply #1454 on: June 09, 2014, 08:57 »
+3
Mike, why are you constantly trying to sabotage this effort? It's as if you want Fotolia to succeed in further devaluing the market.

Sabotage? Are you serious? I got people to opt out, after I did so myself. I blogged, tweeted, and posted on facebook about this. I communicated directly with Mat about this in hopes of getting him to understand why this is such a bad thing for contributors. I've been a part of this effort and have never supported DPC.

Furthermore, I've stated all along that I support efforts to change the course of things in this business, as long as those efforts are going somewhere. I still would support any effort to stop DPC if it were even remotely possible to have an impact, but unfortunately this opt-out effort isn't working and it's a waste of time. However I have always (and still do) welcome different strategies to effect change.

I highly resent your implication that I'm trying to sabotage anything, that I want DPC to succeed, or that I want to devalue anyone's work. The fact that your accusations are getting up votes is even more disturbing. Really makes me wonder why I keep coming back here.

Shelma1

« Reply #1455 on: June 09, 2014, 09:25 »
+17
I am wondering how much bigger the difference of images count between Fotolia and DPC would be if no one would have deleted images from Fotolia or stopped uploading to them, but just have opted out from DPC instead. Currently I am not uploading to Fotolia, but this makes me think if uploading to Fotolia and being opted out from DPC would make DPC less attractive for the buyers, as the images count difference between Fotolia and DPC would grow bigger.

I can't imagine that any customers care.  Some of us may obsess over the relative numbers, but buyers will only be concerned with the quality and quantity of product and the quality of service.  As long as they find a reasonable selection of images that meet their needs, why would the relative size of DPC vs. the Fotolia Mother Ship matter to them?

Me, I'm opted out from DPC and continuing to delete my Fotolia port one image at a time.  I can't change buyers' behavior, but at least I can avoid supporting those who work against my interests.

It may or may not matter to buyers. To the buyers who put images in their cart only to find that they couldn't buy them because they'd been removed, it mattered enough to tweet and complain about it. It could matter enough for them to look elsewhere.

If more images went missing, even more people wouldn't be able to buy the images they thought they could, and DPC would get a bad reputation. A bad reputation alone could kill them.

We've already succeeded in cutting their library by 24%, having at least a few buyers wonder what kind of crazy operation they are when images keep disappearing, and basically forcing Fotolia into offering an opt out lest they risk losing millions of images in their main collection.

Just because we didn't shut them down completely in one month doesn't mean the effort is a failure. Even if it just makes us feel like we can finally come together and make some kind of positive change it's a success. And it's not over. People keep opting out.

« Reply #1456 on: June 09, 2014, 09:55 »
+15
The collective effort is definitely having an effect on Fotolia. I just got an email from a photographer whom I alerted to DPC. They said Fotolia rang them for the first time ever and wanted to know why they'd opted out of DPC. This is desperation on the part of Fotolia and illustrates how poorly they treat and understand the needs of their main asset, us photographers. If the gap keeps growing between DPC and Fotolia that should mean DPC should struggle long term because clients will certainly note the difference in choice.

« Reply #1457 on: June 09, 2014, 12:01 »
+24
Mike, why are you constantly trying to sabotage this effort? It's as if you want Fotolia to succeed in further devaluing the market.

Sabotage? Are you serious? I got people to opt out, after I did so myself. I blogged, tweeted, and posted on facebook about this. I communicated directly with Mat about this in hopes of getting him to understand why this is such a bad thing for contributors. I've been a part of this effort and have never supported DPC.

Furthermore, I've stated all along that I support efforts to change the course of things in this business, as long as those efforts are going somewhere. I still would support any effort to stop DPC if it were even remotely possible to have an impact, but unfortunately this opt-out effort isn't working and it's a waste of time. However I have always (and still do) welcome different strategies to effect change.

I highly resent your implication that I'm trying to sabotage anything, that I want DPC to succeed, or that I want to devalue anyone's work. The fact that your accusations are getting up votes is even more disturbing. Really makes me wonder why I keep coming back here.

Sorry, but that's the way it's coming across. You noted first that the number of files was slightly more at one point than it had been a week earlier and therefore discounted a one-day drop as being irrelevant because, you said, the effort had failed. You added that we should wait a week or so to see where things were going. 10 days later the tally was LOWER than it had been when you came up with that test of achievement, but you didn't acknowledge it.
You tell people that the effort they are making is a waste of time, that they've only reduced tally by 6 million images (when it's 7 million) and that simply will have no effect on Fotolia at all. You dismiss the letters Fotolia has sent to people asking them to reconsider as signifying nothing, you say there is only a 21% difference between Fotolia and DFC, when it is actually 24% difference. And hyou tell everyone that if they do start having an effect on Fotolie they will simply be forced to participate, which is merely speculation.
In short, you underplay every achievement of the boycott campaign and play up every difficulty it faces. If you don't want to sabotage the campaign then you have adopted the most defeatist attitude imaginable and seem to want to share the misery with all those who are still being positive.  It's a real pity when, as has been pointed out, the community is being more active and effective than it has ever been in standing up to this.
I'm sure we all know how heavily the odds are weighted against the campaign succeeding. But we also know that the one absolute guarantee of DPC coming out on top would be for everybody to adopt the negative attitude that you have expressed for the past three or four weeks.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 12:04 by BaldricksTrousers »

« Reply #1458 on: June 09, 2014, 15:05 »
+4
But we also know that the one absolute guarantee of DPC coming out on top would be for everybody to adopt the negative attitude that you have expressed for the past three or four weeks.

Amen to everything you said. Very well put.

« Reply #1459 on: June 09, 2014, 15:43 »
+7
Mike, why are you constantly trying to sabotage this effort? It's as if you want Fotolia to succeed in further devaluing the market.

Sabotage? Are you serious? I got people to opt out, after I did so myself. I blogged, tweeted, and posted on facebook about this. I communicated directly with Mat about this in hopes of getting him to understand why this is such a bad thing for contributors. I've been a part of this effort and have never supported DPC.

Furthermore, I've stated all along that I support efforts to change the course of things in this business, as long as those efforts are going somewhere. I still would support any effort to stop DPC if it were even remotely possible to have an impact, but unfortunately this opt-out effort isn't working and it's a waste of time. However I have always (and still do) welcome different strategies to effect change.

I highly resent your implication that I'm trying to sabotage anything, that I want DPC to succeed, or that I want to devalue anyone's work. The fact that your accusations are getting up votes is even more disturbing. Really makes me wonder why I keep coming back here.


Agreed, I hardly think that EmberMike is doing anything to sabotage anything.  And since when is someone posting their opinion a sabotage.  That is the whole point of this site, to share opinions and discuss topics.  If we all agree about something, the discussion gets rather boring.  Debate about a subject is what we want.  I welcome people to have a different opinion, especially when it is expressed in a mature and professional way.  Keep at it EmberMike (and others).

[/soapbox]

Ron

« Reply #1460 on: June 09, 2014, 15:50 »
+9
I dont think Mike is sabotaging anything. I think he just feels powerless against the agencies, to a point of frustration.

« Reply #1461 on: June 09, 2014, 15:52 »
0
...You noted first that the number of files was slightly more at one point than it had been a week earlier and therefore discounted a one-day drop as being irrelevant because, you said, the effort had failed. You added that we should wait a week or so to see where things were going. 10 days later the tally was LOWER than it had been when you came up with that test of achievement, but you didn't acknowledge it....

I also didn't comment every time it went up. I wasn't ignoring anything, I just don't feel the need to comment on every change in numbers. For the record, I was right, though, the number is going up. But feel free to keep quibbling over the minutia of what I've said.

...
You tell people that the effort they are making is a waste of time, that they've only reduced tally by 6 million images (when it's 7 million) and that simply will have no effect on Fotolia at all. You dismiss the letters Fotolia has sent to people asking them to reconsider as signifying nothing, you say there is only a 21% difference between Fotolia and DFC, when it is actually 24% difference. And hyou tell everyone that if they do start having an effect on Fotolie they will simply be forced to participate, which is merely speculation...

I didn't come up with the 6 million number, I was just going by what others had stated here. And although technically it is in fact less than 7 million, rounding up is appropriate. I stand corrected.

But that's a far cry from "sabotage". And my point is still perfectly valid. Reducing the DPC collection by 24% is far from what would force Fotolia's hand to do something more significant. DPC can live on perfectly fine with 24% fewer images. I'd wager they'd still keep cruising along just fine with 50% fewer images really. How many images do you think they need to lose before they have to change course? I guarantee it's a lot more than 24%.

...
In short, you underplay every achievement of the boycott campaign and play up every difficulty it faces. If you don't want to sabotage the campaign then you have adopted the most defeatist attitude imaginable and seem to want to share the misery with all those who are still being positive...

Simply not true. I think I actually have a more positive attitude than most around here. I'm not interested in wasting time fighting these companies, it just doesn't work. I'm interested in positive action. Supporting good companies, collectively rallying around 1 or 2 of the most "fair trade" companies and trying to push them up the ladder. I believe that positive actions will have a far greater effect on the bad companies by putting pressure on them to act in the interests of contributors.

If you want to talk about underplaying efforts, you should look into my past threads here. Every time I (or anyone) has suggested that we band together behind a good company, those efforts are thwarted by naysayers, disgruntled contributors who were rejected by that company, or people just looking to be negative about things in general.

My attitude is not defeatist. It is progressive, as in, let's progress to the next plan and try to do something different. Frankly I think it's more defeatist to ignore the reality that opting out images isn't working but to simply keep on that losing path. Defeat is all but guaranteed if the majority of folks here are content to ignore reality and just keep hoping for the impossible.

...
I'm sure we all know how heavily the odds are weighted against the campaign succeeding. But we also know that the one absolute guarantee of DPC coming out on top would be for everybody to adopt the negative attitude that you have expressed for the past three or four weeks.

The one way to guarantee that DPC comes out on top is to ignore the hard facts. There is absolutely zero chance that DPC goes under 20 million images. I think they'd still be functional with 10 million (many companies operate fine with even less). So it is a near certainty that opting out images won't force any significant change. If more people had my attitude and were willing to move on to other efforts, then we might have something. Unfortunately very few people are interested in silly things like facts around here. And far fewer are interested in making change happen in a way that doesn't involve boycotts or opt-outs.

Again, we've done this all before. It doesn't work. I'm simply suggesting that we need to try something different. And that suggestion seems to be interpreted as sabotage, negative attitude, and defeatism.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 15:59 by EmberMike »

« Reply #1462 on: June 09, 2014, 16:20 »
+10
OK, Mike, it's just a different point of view, then.
To me, DPC looks like a cancer that threatens the entire microstock body. It may not be possible to destroy it, but ignoring it and moving on to something else is not a good option, in my opinion.
I guess you see it as a minor problem that won't cause too much trouble if it is left to get on with whatever it will do.
I still don't understand why you started off joining in the campaign against it and then switched to announcing it was a lost cause and people should switch their attention to trying to activate a moribund site run by people who took our images, sold the previous site for $10m or whatever, and then set up another site and asked everyone to supply once more the images the site owners had already cashed in on once.

« Reply #1463 on: June 09, 2014, 16:45 »
-4
OK, Mike, it's just a different point of view, then.
To me, DPC looks like a cancer that threatens the entire microstock body. It may not be possible to destroy it, but ignoring it and moving on to something else is not a good option, in my opinion.
I guess you see it as a minor problem that won't cause too much trouble if it is left to get on with whatever it will do.
I still don't understand why you started off joining in the campaign against it and then switched to announcing it was a lost cause and people should switch their attention to trying to activate a moribund site run by people who took our images, sold the previous site for $10m or whatever, and then set up another site and asked everyone to supply once more the images the site owners had already cashed in on once.

I neversaid that DPC was a lost cause, I said getting enough images opted out to force a change wasn't going to work. I've always said that I would support other efforts to force DPC to change, although I don't know what would work. Throwing some huge effort behind supporting good companies is one way to try something different, but I've always been open to other ideas on how to push back at DPC.

I never said it was a minor problem. In fact, I've said the exact opposite here, that I consider it the biggest threat to our ability to earn in microstock.

I joined the campaign to get as many images opted out of DPC as possible because it was certainly worth a shot. I saw where it went and I have a pretty good idea of where it's going. So I think something different needs to be done.

I like Stockfresh, but I also have said that I'm open to other options if the majority of people wanted to rally behind a single company. A lot of people like GL. I'm good with that. I also don't share your concern about the Stockfresh guys having sold their previous company. They didn't sell with the intention of it getting shut down. It was supposed to simply change hands. But that's a discussion for a different thread.

I'm fine with differences of opinion, but you seem intent on twisting everything I say (or don't say) to suggest that I'm in favor of DPC and I'm against any effort to change it. That's not a different viewpoint, that's just simply slander.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 16:48 by EmberMike »

« Reply #1464 on: June 09, 2014, 16:57 »
+8
Well, OK, so you want to change it. But how? To my mind trying to activate stockfresh is way more of a waste of time than trying to undermine the site that is the problem. If Stockfresh ever did become even a modest success, the owner's past record suggests they would just sell it off and pocket the cash.  Maybe Scanstockphoto is a better bet, I think they pay 50% (not sure) and I get a payout or two a year from them (but sending pictures to them wouldn't do anything to solve the DPC problem, either).

Shelma1

« Reply #1465 on: June 09, 2014, 17:12 »
+3
A list of successful boycotts (the first one is particularly applicable to our situation):

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/boycotts/successfulboycotts.aspx

« Reply #1466 on: June 09, 2014, 17:13 »
0
Perhaps Fotolia is so desperate they have created the odd profile or two to try and fill this topic with doubt about whether it is succeeding?

« Reply #1467 on: June 09, 2014, 17:16 »
-2
Well, OK, so you want to change it. But how?...

I've suggested propping up good companies, but that idea is very light on community support. Beyond that, I'm honestly not sure what to do. All I know is that opting out images isn't going anywhere, and I wish we could figure out something else to put all of that effort and energy into. I'm certainly open to suggestions.

...If Stockfresh ever did become even a modest success, the owner's past record suggests they would just sell it off and pocket the cash...

Would you say that about any company run by someone who previously sold a stock company? Stocksy? Or any company run by someone who previously sold any other company? Seems like a harsh rule.

« Reply #1468 on: June 09, 2014, 18:41 »
-11
A list of successful boycotts (the first one is particularly applicable to our situation):

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/boycotts/successfulboycotts.aspx


Got any successful stock agency boycotts to share?

« Reply #1469 on: June 09, 2014, 20:10 »
+7
I made a search on DPC with some specific words "beard hipster drawing" and made the same search on Shutterstock. There is a huge difference between them in terms of quality and quantity.

« Reply #1470 on: June 09, 2014, 22:09 »
+2
Got any successful stock agency boycotts to share?

Has one ever been attempted before? Serious question. I honestly don't know.

« Reply #1471 on: June 10, 2014, 02:37 »
+6

...If Stockfresh ever did become even a modest success, the owner's past record suggests they would just sell it off and pocket the cash...

Would you say that about any company run by someone who previously sold a stock company? Stocksy? Or any company run by someone who previously sold any other company? Seems like a harsh rule.

Good point, but also rather missing my point. If I were looking at trying to support a site for political reasons, yes I would. If I were simply trying to make some more money and thought the site had a chance of doing that then I wouldn't bother thinking about it.
The lack of investment in Stockfresh to attract buyers suggests to me that the owners aren't really interested in running a stock site any longer.
As for Stocksy, is anybody convinced that it won't be sold on at some point? That doesn't mean that it won't produce a worthwhile return on effort in the meantime, or, indeed, continue to do so if it is sold.
It's also a dangerous business building up "fair" sites. If I remember aright, back in 2005 Fotolia was the fairest of the fair. The first site that was going to be totally fair to photographers and stop the rip-off commission. It was the site you had to join to start the fair-pay revolution. And what happened as soon as Fotolia gained unstoppable momentum? It became nastier and more exploitative than any of those it was going to save us all from.

« Reply #1472 on: June 10, 2014, 03:10 »
+6
Got any successful stock agency boycotts to share?

Has one ever been attempted before? Serious question. I honestly don't know.

Yes, there have been campaigns before. Some of them got concessions and some of them didn't. I think one of the first was against StockXpert and they did make some changes as a result, but I can't remember what it was about.  If I remember correctly another was about Fotolia's plan to introduce subcriptions without counting them as a sale towards the higher levels, they eventually counted them as a quarter of a sale, didn't they? There was the Media Bakery problem.  One I do remember clearly was when Veer quietly tried to start re-routing our files through Alamy - we won that outright.  There have been loads of things that have been taken up.

« Reply #1473 on: June 10, 2014, 03:41 »
+23
I'll just point out that several concessions have already been given by FL since the campaign started, the rise in sub commissions, introduction of ELs, even the opt out itself wasn't on the table until people started pulling portfolios.

So the idea that it isn't having an effect is just plain wrong.

This is the most positive contributor action this industry has ever seen, I have really taken heart seeing so many of us come together over something and make a difference for once.

To anyone that hasn't opted out already, please consider doing so and doing your bit to force some more concessions, even if you are unsure, you personally and we collectively will be in a much stronger negotiating position without your images in.

« Reply #1474 on: June 10, 2014, 06:22 »
0
Got any successful stock agency boycotts to share?

Has one ever been attempted before? Serious question. I honestly don't know.

Yes, there have been campaigns before. Some of them got concessions and some of them didn't. I think one of the first was against StockXpert and they did make some changes as a result, but I can't remember what it was about.  If I remember correctly another was about Fotolia's plan to introduce subcriptions without counting them as a sale towards the higher levels, they eventually counted them as a quarter of a sale, didn't they? There was the Media Bakery problem.  One I do remember clearly was when Veer quietly tried to start re-routing our files through Alamy - we won that outright.  There have been loads of things that have been taken up.

Thanks for that information. I have very little history here, so it helps to learn from those who do.


 

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