I am wondering how much bigger the difference of images count between Fotolia and DPC would be if no one would have deleted images from Fotolia or stopped uploading to them, but just have opted out from DPC instead. Currently I am not uploading to Fotolia, but this makes me think if uploading to Fotolia and being opted out from DPC would make DPC less attractive for the buyers, as the images count difference between Fotolia and DPC would grow bigger.

I am wondering how much bigger the difference of images count between Fotolia and DPC would be if no one would have deleted images from Fotolia or stopped uploading to them, but just have opted out from DPC instead. Currently I am not uploading to Fotolia, but this makes me think if uploading to Fotolia and being opted out from DPC would make DPC less attractive for the buyers, as the images count difference between Fotolia and DPC would grow bigger.

I can't imagine that any customers care.  Some of us may obsess over the relative numbers, but buyers will only be concerned with the quality and quantity of product and the quality of service.  As long as they find a reasonable selection of images that meet their needs, why would the relative size of DPC vs. the Fotolia Mother Ship matter to them?

Me, I'm opted out from DPC and continuing to delete my Fotolia port one image at a time.  I can't change buyers' behavior, but at least I can avoid supporting those who work against my interests.

Quote from: BaldricksTrousers on June 09, 2014, 03:27

Mike, why are you constantly trying to sabotage this effort? It's as if you want Fotolia to succeed in further devaluing the market.

Sabotage? Are you serious? I got people to opt out, after I did so myself. I blogged, tweeted, and posted on facebook about this. I communicated directly with Mat about this in hopes of getting him to understand why this is such a bad thing for contributors. I've been a part of this effort and have never supported DPC.

Furthermore, I've stated all along that I support efforts to change the course of things in this business, as long as those efforts are going somewhere. I still would support any effort to stop DPC if it were even remotely possible to have an impact, but unfortunately this opt-out effort isn't working and it's a waste of time. However I have always (and still do) welcome different strategies to effect change.

I highly resent your implication that I'm trying to sabotage anything, that I want DPC to succeed, or that I want to devalue anyone's work. The fact that your accusations are getting up votes is even more disturbing. Really makes me wonder why I keep coming back here.

Agreed, I hardly think that EmberMike is doing anything to sabotage anything.  And since when is someone posting their opinion a sabotage.  That is the whole point of this site, to share opinions and discuss topics.  If we all agree about something, the discussion gets rather boring.  Debate about a subject is what we want.  I welcome people to have a different opinion, especially when it is expressed in a mature and professional way.  Keep at it EmberMike (and others).

[/soapbox]

...You noted first that the number of files was slightly more at one point than it had been a week earlier and therefore discounted a one-day drop as being irrelevant because, you said, the effort had failed. You added that we should wait a week or so to see where things were going. 10 days later the tally was LOWER than it had been when you came up with that test of achievement, but you didn't acknowledge it....

I also didn't comment every time it went up. I wasn't ignoring anything, I just don't feel the need to comment on every change in numbers. For the record, I was right, though, the number is going up. But feel free to keep quibbling over the minutia of what I've said.

...
You tell people that the effort they are making is a waste of time, that they've only reduced tally by 6 million images (when it's 7 million) and that simply will have no effect on Fotolia at all. You dismiss the letters Fotolia has sent to people asking them to reconsider as signifying nothing, you say there is only a 21% difference between Fotolia and DFC, when it is actually 24% difference. And hyou tell everyone that if they do start having an effect on Fotolie they will simply be forced to participate, which is merely speculation...

I didn't come up with the 6 million number, I was just going by what others had stated here. And although technically it is in fact less than 7 million, rounding up is appropriate. I stand corrected.

But that's a far cry from "sabotage". And my point is still perfectly valid. Reducing the DPC collection by 24% is far from what would force Fotolia's hand to do something more significant. DPC can live on perfectly fine with 24% fewer images. I'd wager they'd still keep cruising along just fine with 50% fewer images really. How many images do you think they need to lose before they have to change course? I guarantee it's a lot more than 24%.

...
In short, you underplay every achievement of the boycott campaign and play up every difficulty it faces. If you don't want to sabotage the campaign then you have adopted the most defeatist attitude imaginable and seem to want to share the misery with all those who are still being positive...

Simply not true. I think I actually have a more positive attitude than most around here. I'm not interested in wasting time fighting these companies, it just doesn't work. I'm interested in positive action. Supporting good companies, collectively rallying around 1 or 2 of the most "fair trade" companies and trying to push them up the ladder. I believe that positive actions will have a far greater effect on the bad companies by putting pressure on them to act in the interests of contributors.

If you want to talk about underplaying efforts, you should look into my past threads here. Every time I (or anyone) has suggested that we band together behind a good company, those efforts are thwarted by naysayers, disgruntled contributors who were rejected by that company, or people just looking to be negative about things in general.

My attitude is not defeatist. It is progressive, as in, let's progress to the next plan and try to do something different. Frankly I think it's more defeatist to ignore the reality that opting out images isn't working but to simply keep on that losing path. Defeat is all but guaranteed if the majority of folks here are content to ignore reality and just keep hoping for the impossible.

...
I'm sure we all know how heavily the odds are weighted against the campaign succeeding. But we also know that the one absolute guarantee of DPC coming out on top would be for everybody to adopt the negative attitude that you have expressed for the past three or four weeks.

The one way to guarantee that DPC comes out on top is to ignore the hard facts. There is absolutely zero chance that DPC goes under 20 million images. I think they'd still be functional with 10 million (many companies operate fine with even less). So it is a near certainty that opting out images won't force any significant change. If more people had my attitude and were willing to move on to other efforts, then we might have something. Unfortunately very few people are interested in silly things like facts around here. And far fewer are interested in making change happen in a way that doesn't involve boycotts or opt-outs.

Again, we've done this all before. It doesn't work. I'm simply suggesting that we need to try something different. And that suggestion seems to be interpreted as sabotage, negative attitude, and defeatism.

OK, Mike, it's just a different point of view, then.
To me, DPC looks like a cancer that threatens the entire microstock body. It may not be possible to destroy it, but ignoring it and moving on to something else is not a good option, in my opinion.
I guess you see it as a minor problem that won't cause too much trouble if it is left to get on with whatever it will do.
I still don't understand why you started off joining in the campaign against it and then switched to announcing it was a lost cause and people should switch their attention to trying to activate a moribund site run by people who took our images, sold the previous site for $10m or whatever, and then set up another site and asked everyone to supply once more the images the site owners had already cashed in on once.

I neversaid that DPC was a lost cause, I said getting enough images opted out to force a change wasn't going to work. I've always said that I would support other efforts to force DPC to change, although I don't know what would work. Throwing some huge effort behind supporting good companies is one way to try something different, but I've always been open to other ideas on how to push back at DPC.

I never said it was a minor problem. In fact, I've said the exact opposite here, that I consider it the biggest threat to our ability to earn in microstock.

I joined the campaign to get as many images opted out of DPC as possible because it was certainly worth a shot. I saw where it went and I have a pretty good idea of where it's going. So I think something different needs to be done.

I like Stockfresh, but I also have said that I'm open to other options if the majority of people wanted to rally behind a single company. A lot of people like GL. I'm good with that. I also don't share your concern about the Stockfresh guys having sold their previous company. They didn't sell with the intention of it getting shut down. It was supposed to simply change hands. But that's a discussion for a different thread.

I'm fine with differences of opinion, but you seem intent on twisting everything I say (or don't say) to suggest that I'm in favor of DPC and I'm against any effort to change it. That's not a different viewpoint, that's just simply slander.

A list of successful boycotts (the first one is particularly applicable to our situation):

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/boycotts/successfulboycotts.aspx

Well, OK, so you want to change it. But how?...

I've suggested propping up good companies, but that idea is very light on community support. Beyond that, I'm honestly not sure what to do. All I know is that opting out images isn't going anywhere, and I wish we could figure out something else to put all of that effort and energy into. I'm certainly open to suggestions.

...If Stockfresh ever did become even a modest success, the owner's past record suggests they would just sell it off and pocket the cash...

Would you say that about any company run by someone who previously sold a stock company? Stocksy? Or any company run by someone who previously sold any other company? Seems like a harsh rule.

I made a search on DPC with some specific words "beard hipster drawing" and made the same search on Shutterstock. There is a huge difference between them in terms of quality and quantity.

Quote from: BaldricksTrousers on June 09, 2014, 16:57

...If Stockfresh ever did become even a modest success, the owner's past record suggests they would just sell it off and pocket the cash...

Would you say that about any company run by someone who previously sold a stock company? Stocksy? Or any company run by someone who previously sold any other company? Seems like a harsh rule.

Good point, but also rather missing my point. If I were looking at trying to support a site for political reasons, yes I would. If I were simply trying to make some more money and thought the site had a chance of doing that then I wouldn't bother thinking about it.
The lack of investment in Stockfresh to attract buyers suggests to me that the owners aren't really interested in running a stock site any longer.
As for Stocksy, is anybody convinced that it won't be sold on at some point? That doesn't mean that it won't produce a worthwhile return on effort in the meantime, or, indeed, continue to do so if it is sold.
It's also a dangerous business building up "fair" sites. If I remember aright, back in 2005 Fotolia was the fairest of the fair. The first site that was going to be totally fair to photographers and stop the rip-off commission. It was the site you had to join to start the fair-pay revolution. And what happened as soon as Fotolia gained unstoppable momentum? It became nastier and more exploitative than any of those it was going to save us all from.