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Author Topic: The secret of the Holly Grail  (Read 14806 times)

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« on: June 12, 2008, 01:51 »
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Perhaps first images in results are those with less number of keywords? Just a theory, not sure...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 02:52 by Peter »


« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2008, 02:28 »
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I saw that as well, but only in searches with many images. If you search penguin it is not so. However, I am trying out with keywording a few images with only 7 keywords. In general I am doing now slightly better after the search engine change. Usually I have as well 15-20 keywords.

« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2008, 02:29 »
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Are you sure?
I have look for "computer business" and there are images in the first page with 10, 12 and more keywords...

« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2008, 02:38 »
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I am not sure, it is just a guess. And people at FT forum also talking about this. But maybe it is not 100% rule to all images, but on cerain amount of them it is.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 02:53 by Peter »

« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2008, 02:40 »
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Can you modify keywords of images that are already online?

« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2008, 02:44 »
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I think that ranking is also playing a bigger part than before.  Most of the people doing the complaining are bronze and under.  Or maybe it is just that most people are bronze and under. :)

« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2008, 02:47 »
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No, although in the past support would sometimes change genuine mistakes for  you.
Can you modify keywords of images that are already online?

« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2008, 02:51 »
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I dont think ranking has anything to do with it. I am silver, I am affected a lot. My friend is bronze, and my other friend is gold. Same situation.

« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2008, 03:24 »
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well it does look like that holds some truth and would explain a few things about my poor portfolio  performance :)

There are no doubt other factors though, like perhaps overall port. strength, or individual image strength from downloads, or view (if they count that), and perhaps a reviewer rating which could put the image higher or lower in the search results, but the amount of keywords probably plays an important part.

I feel dreamstime has also alluded to this - that less is more.

jsnover

« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2008, 03:53 »
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My test for this concept was to search for picnic basket.

Right now, the first image (by relevance) of the 667 results is my image and it has 40 keywords. It does have reasonable downloads, but isn't a new image (2 years old).

I also tested straw hat. 1719 results, mine is first; 30 keywords.

I can't begin to fathom how they work out placement - although it's easy to tell when they've changed it as the sales results tell the tale...

« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2008, 03:59 »
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i that is a good example of an image getting high in the results due to being a nice image.  Check out the first 'why is this image so high' image (the third one)... and it only has 7 keywords.

« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2008, 04:14 »
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I've read many contributors complaining about poor performance at FT and I must confess that my performance is excellent for the last few weeks: my overall rank is 300 and my 7 days rank used to be around 500 for the last few months, but is has suddenly improved to 200 any my earnings this month should improve almost 100% compared to the previous months!

I don't know why some do see a drop in sales and I see the opposite, but I also use a lot more than 7 keywords in all my pictures which means that it is probably not the reason for Chode's poor performance.

Go figure... but I'm personally not complaining, at least for now  ;D

« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2008, 04:37 »
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lately my sales have been better than usual,which must have been due to the search engine change. I never though number of kws would be a parameter for the search engine. and never thought of limiting them to 7  but now after a few search  the impression I got is  that files less kws show up first,

if that theory  is true it is strange that Fotolia  kept it as  a secret formula,they should have just clarify that by saying: 7 kws only ,which would have been a lot fairer imo.

edit:I think at lease they should give chance to remove extra keywords if not allowing us to modifying them fully.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 04:39 by stokfoto »

« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2008, 04:40 »
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I will do a few keywords only and try out if it works. At least I want to see improved "views" even if not "downloads". At least I know the problem is with me and not the search engine.

My old images have more views than my new images, also because when I first started, I only have a few keywords. but my better vectors are my latest ones so I have to delete and re keyword the latest files.

Ill see if it would work.

« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2008, 05:00 »
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After v2 came out, my sales soared while many others saw their sales tank.  Now it's my turn.  Whatever they did to the search this time, it's hitting me pretty hard. 

I'm a silver.  My earnings are down 57% from only a month ago (in other words, they have gone from 15% of my earnings down to 7%).  Ugh.  My seven-day ranking has also plummeted...from 330 all the way down to 1022.  I've never even come close to breaking 1000.  And I'm watching my overall ranking drop as well...from 323 to 401 in just a couple of weeks. 

All of that on top of a crazy increase in the number of rejections.  My rejections have gotten so bad that once the subscription model details were announced, I decided to quit uploading.  Enough is enough.  Fotolia just ain't for me.

CofkoCof

« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2008, 06:31 »
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I was wondering the same thing the other day, will try a few searches later today. But I certainly won't keyword especially for fotolia. As you said it's risky to start using only 7 keywords due to the possible change in the search) but also since less keywords means less searches that bring customer to your file. What is better, to be 50 times on page 10 or 3 times on page 1?

My old images have more views than my new images, also because when I first started, I only have a few keywords. but my better vectors are my latest ones so I have to delete and re keyword the latest files.
You can't rekeyword or delete keywords on FT. You can only mix the order of keywords.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 06:33 by CofkoCof »

« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2008, 07:20 »
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I actually think it is better to be 50x on page 1 than 500x on page 10

I have watched this mostly on istock, but images that get on page one get downloaded like CRAZY even if they are crappy, and when that image gets moved to page X ... X being anything other than 1, the sales stop dead in their tracks!

so being on page 1 of the search results is actually very important.

Dreamstime does a similar thing but uses the image name for the 'valuable keywords'.. so that gives you 2 or 3 'power words' .. but if you use them wisely they can be helpful.

« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2008, 08:38 »
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I was wondering the same thing the other day, will try a few searches later today. But I certainly won't keyword especially for fotolia. As you said it's risky to start using only 7 keywords due to the possible change in the search) but also since less keywords means less searches that bring customer to your file. What is better, to be 50 times on page 10 or 3 times on page 1?

My old images have more views than my new images, also because when I first started, I only have a few keywords. but my better vectors are my latest ones so I have to delete and re keyword the latest files.
You can't rekeyword or delete keywords on FT. You can only mix the order of keywords.


Oh I meant I deleted my files in the queue and "re-keyworded" it! Haha! Anyway what I mean is I started fresh. It was easy because I only had 5 files in the queue and I would just have to pick 7-10 keywords for each. But if you have hundreds of files in the queue, it's probably not easy. Or you could just choose the best ones and re-do it.

« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2008, 08:43 »
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my image is 1st for "pumpkin, fruit", 7 kws only. hm.......

edit: day after it is not among first results any more :(
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 02:54 by Peter »

« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2008, 08:56 »
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http://www.fotolia.com/search?k=pumpkin+fruit&search.x=0&search.y=0&order=relevance

my image is 1st for "pumpkin, fruit", 7 kws only. hm.......

Oh, boy! Now I know what to do! Sales, here I come! LOOOOL!

I'm rich again, I tell you, rich!!! hhhhhhhhhh

good for you:)
but what will happen if everyone decides to get 7 keywords only,which one will show up first?

« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2008, 08:58 »
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I'll just test it.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 02:54 by Peter »

« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2008, 08:59 »
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http://www.fotolia.com/search?k=pumpkin+fruit&search.x=0&search.y=0&order=relevance

my image is 1st for "pumpkin, fruit", 7 kws only. hm.......

Oh, boy! Now I know what to do! Sales, here I come! LOOOOL!

I'm rich again, I tell you, rich!!! hhhhhhhhhh

good for you:)
but what will happen if everyone decides to get 7 keywords only,which one will show up first?


then the other variables would play a larger roll like perhaps a reviewer rating if there is one, or views, sales, sales/day or other things that ranking is based on.

CofkoCof

« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2008, 09:00 »
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http://www.fotolia.com/search?k=pumpkin+fruit&search.x=0&search.y=0&order=relevance

my image is 1st for "pumpkin, fruit", 7 kws only. hm.......

Oh, boy! Now I know what to do! Sales, here I come! LOOOOL!

I'm rich again, I tell you, rich!!! hhhhhhhhhh

Looks like it they use something like: # of keywords that match the search / number of all keywords on an image. So if you have 2 keywords that match out of 7 keywords thats 2/7 relevance and if you have 40 keywords that 2/40 relevance.

But that's probably just one of the factors. Downloads, age and others are probably also included.

« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2008, 09:16 »
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Of course, just "pure" number of kws is not all that is, there are many more factors, but that is the one I can change on any new image. The others, I dont have control of.

But, I will rather make a system like this:

If I shoot a series, most images will have normal 20-30 kws, but I will pick a few (1-2) from the same series that will have only 7 kws, and perhaps they will go on first pages, linking the other ones in the same series.... :D

That is the plan I will do for any new image/series I upload. I whish I knew this before, In last 2 months I uploaded over 500 new images without being aware of this... thats pitty. Oh well...

« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2008, 09:34 »
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but what will happen if everyone decides to get 7 keywords only,which one will show up first?
Close this thread and throw the key to the river  ;D

« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2008, 10:10 »
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 ;D ;D ;D that would be the best thing lol

« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2008, 11:24 »
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Page 21 before I found the first of my own shots with pumpkins (part of series of cornucopia shots).  Plenty of isolated apples and oranges and other squashes without any sign of a pumpkin appear before mine shows up.   >:(

My photo series has a lot of keywords, because it's a cornucopia of specifically autumn produce in an antique wooden basket shot outdoors.  Seven keywords right there.  How does someone accurately describe a complex photo like that with only seven keywords (and no field for an actual description)? 

So anyway...I searched for "outdoors cornucopia" and the first image is a photo of a dog shot with a flash isolated on white.   >:(  Check out the keywords...!!!

http://www.fotolia.com/id/1499349

Quote
abundance access adorable animals apples armor armour arrangment autumn baskets bite blue bountiful bounty breed canine castle centerpiece cocker color comedy comic computer confusion control corn cornacopia cornucopia couples cute day decoration dogs emotion expressions face fall family flowers flowing food fresh friends fruits fun funny girls golden gourds grapes grave guard guardian halloween happy harvest head health holiday horn horses humor humorous humour identity in isolated key kids knights leaf leaves leisure lie lock love loves mammal mans me medieval metal military mum mutts natural nature nose orange out outdoors over password paws people pets plates plenty pose prison privacy produce protection protects pumpkin puppies pyramids question questioning safe safeguard safety seasonal secure security sharp silly smiles spaniel spill spilled squash steel suit summer sweet sword thanksgiving time vacation vegetables vet veterinarian veterinary war weapons wheat woman yellow


Mine are well thought out and accurate, not spam, and yet this obviously spammed image shows up before mine. 

Seems to put to rest the theory of seven keywords.  LOL


« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2008, 12:01 »
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this dog image is example of spam. it is so rude. cant believe it...

OK my theory does not work in every cases, but in some it does. I dont know any more. Thi search engine is real puzzle. I have some more images with 7 kws, but they are buried deep on page 40 or so.... dont know what to think about....
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 12:03 by Chode »

« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2008, 19:27 »
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I dont care. I know I will from now put only 7 words for Fotolia..... lol. ...

Maybe we don't need to go that far, just reduce the number of keywords to what is really really relevant.

I agree it is a nightmare to have a different procedure for FT, but in the end I already have to edit my keywords because FT doesn't use composed keywords.

Regards,
Adelaide

cphoto

  • CreativeShot.com
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2008, 21:52 »
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After v2 came out, my sales soared while many others saw their sales tank.  Now it's my turn.  Whatever they did to the search this time, it's hitting me pretty hard. 

I'm a silver.  My earnings are down 57% from only a month ago (in other words, they have gone from 15% of my earnings down to 7%).  Ugh.  My seven-day ranking has also plummeted...from 330 all the way down to 1022.  I've never even come close to breaking 1000.  And I'm watching my overall ranking drop as well...from 323 to 401 in just a couple of weeks. 

All of that on top of a crazy increase in the number of rejections.  My rejections have gotten so bad that once the subscription model details were announced, I decided to quit uploading.  Enough is enough.  Fotolia just ain't for me.


Same for me, after V2 I was in the 500 ish for the rank.
Right after the subs fiasco I sinked to 1200 :(

Fotolia, you're the next micro I'm gonna dump, LOL!

PaulieWalnuts

  • On the Wrong Side of the Business
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2008, 21:56 »
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Who is Holly Grail? She own Fotolia?

« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2008, 22:04 »
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Who is Holly Grail? She own Fotolia?

Nope , It something you put on bread :)

PaulieWalnuts

  • On the Wrong Side of the Business
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2008, 22:05 »
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Ahhhh, okay. A spread of some sort. Secret revealed.

« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2008, 23:07 »
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A Russian guy owns FT.

cphoto

  • CreativeShot.com
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2008, 23:52 »
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A Russian guy owns FT.


No, actually 2 French guys own it.  One of them is Oleg Tscheltzoff:
http://blogs.photopreneur.com/shoot-better-not-more-says-fotolia-founder

« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2008, 00:06 »
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if an astronaut is communicating to you from Mars, it does not mean that she or he is a Martian.

« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2008, 00:31 »
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Who is Holly Grail? She own Fotolia?


I think he meant to say 'Holy Grail'
check it out here

« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2008, 01:37 »
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Oleg is from Ukraine

« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2008, 04:15 »
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I give up. I totaly dont get this search engine. I just got aproved some watermelon images, and they have 13 keywords. 5 images on first page for "watermelon". This is really strange. There is no rule I guess....

CofkoCof

« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2008, 05:12 »
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I give up. I totaly dont get this search engine. I just got aproved some watermelon images, and they have 13 keywords. 5 images on first page for "watermelon". This is really strange. There is no rule I guess....
Maybe they have a limit like IS. Only a few images (5?) from the same author can be on the first page.

« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2008, 06:51 »
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I give up. I totaly dont get this search engine. I just got aproved some watermelon images, and they have 13 keywords. 5 images on first page for "watermelon". This is really strange. There is no rule I guess....
Maybe they have a limit like IS. Only a few images (5?) from the same author can be on the first page.

that might be as well.

RacePhoto

« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2008, 11:28 »
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My answer:

In 1948, behavioural psychologist B.F. Skinner published an article in the Journal of Experimental Psychology, in which he describes his pigeons exhibiting what appeared to be superstitious behaviour. One pigeon was making turns in its cage, another would swing its head in a pendulum motion, while others also displayed a variety of other behaviours. Because these behaviours were all done ritualistically in an attempt to receive food from a dispenser, even though the dispenser had already been programmed to release food at set time intervals regardless of the pigeons' actions, Skinner believed that the pigeons were trying to influence their feeding schedule by performing these actions. He then extended this as a proposition regarding the nature of superstitious behaviour in humans.

Translation? People are finding the secrets of the search engines, increased sales (or lower sales) based on superstition and guessing. Only the programmer knows.  ;D

I can't understand how someone can have 20 or 30 keywords for a Watermelon in Easter Hay. There are only so many objects and if you want to sell a photo, having bad, inaccurate and deceptive keywords seems counterproductive.

Good keywords are concise and describe what's really in the images. Otherwise buyers are just wasting time looking at pictures that don't match. How would you like to search for something on the web and find half your matches, have nothing to do with what you want? Frustrating!

If they have a keyword counter and spam defeater by counting the number of words that match or are relevant vs the total number, I'm all for it. That's why I like the sites that limit the best keywords, include secondary words and have a third box for "related" words.

I find it amusing that people keep trying to find ways to circumvent the system that was designed to find photos for buyers. I'd really like to see some site come out with keyword police  :D who will just remove photos, with a short note, please re-submit with appropriate keywords.

Torpedo the keyword spammers and make their life miserable, until people start putting ONLY accurate words into their files.

Sites review at 100% and throw out good photos, based on someones personal opinion, keywords are much easier and less subjective. Extra words, dump it. Keyword spam, remove it.

The site that does this will have more sales because it has produced good accurate matches and wastes less of the buyers time. It's a marketing point.

« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2008, 11:58 »
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Dude you missed the point. I am against kw spam as well. But sometimes you need to put 15 relevant keywords, and if the image with 7 keyword will be in front of this with 15, well, I will shorten my list, and cut out some relevant kws. I never supported spam in kws.

Also, about superstition thing. Search engine is made by human. So it works on some pattern. It is not natural phenomenon, that nobody knows how it works. It is made by some programer, by some key. So there is the answer out there, but we dont know it (yet). hh

« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2008, 12:42 »
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It's not that, I just tried a search using 6 of my common  keywords and it came up with 6 pages of results and I had 23 on the first page. I looked at the images on the last  page and they had all of the keywords so it wasn't because they only had 5 or  or less out of the 6.  I am due to become emerald quite soon so I still believe that ranking plays quite a major part .

I give up. I totaly dont get this search engine. I just got aproved some watermelon images, and they have 13 keywords. 5 images on first page for "watermelon". This is really strange. There is no rule I guess....
Maybe they have a limit like IS. Only a few images (5?) from the same author can be on the first page.

that might be as well.

« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2008, 13:27 »
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Dude you missed the point. I am against kw spam as well. But sometimes you need to put 15 relevant keywords, and if the image with 7 keyword will be in front of this with 15, well, I will shorten my list, and cut out some relevant kws. I never supported spam in kws.

I totally  agree  with chode on this one.having more than 7 kw doesn't make one a keyword spammer.there are time you indeed need more keywords than just 7 keywords.
keywords and their impact  on sales is the bit the least  I like about this business. I don't know if it will ever come true but  I wish it was only quality that mattered not how well the photos were keyword .and as in this specific example we don't know exactly what is good keywording as it all depends on the search engine.

« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2008, 15:17 »
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It's not that, I just tried a search using 6 of my common  keywords and it came up with 6 pages of results and I had 23 on the first page. I looked at the images on the last  page and they had all of the keywords so it wasn't because they only had 5 or  or less out of the 6.  I am due to become emerald quite soon so I still believe that ranking plays quite a major part .

I give up. I totaly dont get this search engine. I just got aproved some watermelon images, and they have 13 keywords. 5 images on first page for "watermelon". This is really strange. There is no rule I guess....
Maybe they have a limit like IS. Only a few images (5?) from the same author can be on the first page.

that might be as well.

It's quit obvious and no secret  there are sites that rank pictures, good or bad rankings make your sales... visibility.. success.

Patrick H.

« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2008, 15:35 »
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I dont agree with ranking theory. I am almost certain that photographer's rank has little impact on image order in search, actually, I am positive that photographers rank has NOT AT ALL influence on image relevance order. Not at all. I am 99% sure of that. I was suspecting on that too, but I conducted series of tests, and made conclusion that photographer's rank has nothing to do with relevance order in search. 99% sure.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 15:39 by Chode »

« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2008, 15:38 »
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I dont agree with ranking theory. I am almost certain that photographer's rank has little impact on image order in search, actually, I am positive that photographers rank has NOT AT ALL influence on image relevance order. Not at all. I am 99% sure of that. I was suspecting on that too, but I conducted series of tests, and made conclusion that rank has nothing to do with relevance order in search. 99% sure.

Maybe not on fotolia.. but on some other sites it does.

Patrick H.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 15:39 by patrick1958 »

« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2008, 15:40 »
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I dont agree with ranking theory. I am almost certain that photographer's rank has little impact on image order in search, actually, I am positive that photographers rank has NOT AT ALL influence on image relevance order. Not at all. I am 99% sure of that. I was suspecting on that too, but I conducted series of tests, and made conclusion that rank has nothing to do with relevance order in search. 99% sure.

Maybe not on fotolia.. but on some other sites it does.

Patrick H.


I talk about FT. Dont know (and dont care too much actually) about other sites.

FT+SS is my primary combination, all others are auxilary earners for me, so I dont spend time to figuring their systems much....

« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2008, 17:25 »
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my only problem is where i search.. when i search in germany with the word Frauen (women) i get my pictures.. when i search on the english-Fotolia-Webpage with woman or women no of my pics where found...

when i search on the italian side i am on side 3 thats ok, but in uk and amerika my pics where not found.

If heard that the german market is great, perhaps your pics where not found here. how many buyers are german of your pics?

fotoKmyst

« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2008, 18:10 »
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7 keywords max ?
this is the opposite of what some other sites in the Big 6 advise you.

i remember reading the photographer's handbook or whatnot and they give an example of how to choose your keywords,
and if i am not mistaken, there were a lot more than seven.

so, my question to you chode is:
are you only referring to fotolia on this matter? :-\

CofkoCof

« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2008, 18:21 »
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so, my question to you chode is:
are you only referring to fotolia on this matter? :-\
Just might be so, since he started the topic in the fotolia part of the forum.

« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2008, 02:30 »
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7 keywords max ?
this is the opposite of what some other sites in the Big 6 advise you.



FT dont advise you to use 7 max, it is just my own (anf few other people) theory. It might not be correct. I also have few images on first pages with 13-15 keywords, so it does not support that theory, but mostly, images with less keywords (not always 7) will come first. Not always, but often. Once again, it is just a unproven theroy, not an official information.


 

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