Author Topic: Our own kind looking for free work / using images from Google search (Read 28340 times)

Ron · « **Reply #26 on:** November 04, 2013, 13:00 »

Completely missing the point there. But you'll say anything to get some attention.

tickstock · « **Reply #27 on:** November 04, 2013, 13:14 »

Red Dove · « **Reply #28 on:** November 04, 2013, 17:15 »

I recently extracted payment* from my own mother for some portrait work so you can imagine the short shrift I give to penny pinching fleabags asking me to work for a pat on the back - and I don't care who they are or where they are from.

*Admittedly this payment was in the form of a bottle of Tullamore Dew and thus heavily discounted...but I got paid!

elvinstar · « **Reply #29 on:** November 05, 2013, 01:32 »

Quote from: Red Dove on November 04, 2013, 17:15

*Admittedly this payment was in the form of a bottle of Tullamore Dew and thus heavily discounted...but I got paid!

Yummmmm

gillian vann · « **Reply #30 on:** November 05, 2013, 04:14 »

I wouldn't want a cruise ticket either, I'm sure we all have done our fair share of contra, but ultimately we all prefer, need, cash.

bunhill · « **Reply #31 on:** November 05, 2013, 04:41 »

Not much different from photographers trying to get away without paying models for commercial work.

leaf · « **Reply #32 on:** November 05, 2013, 04:58 »

Quote from: bhr on November 05, 2013, 04:41

Not much different from photographers trying to get away without paying models for commercial work.

Two artists swapping services (a model needing images for their port and a photographer needing a model for their images) is different than an ad agency expecting someone to work for free. That said, I'd still recommend always paying your models. I feel that if you are making $$ from the images you should be paying the models $$. For images simply to try something new or creative for a personal portfolio, perhaps a swap is more fair.

Ron · « **Reply #33 on:** November 05, 2013, 06:13 »

@ Leaf, is that use of your image in the presentation allowed?

bunhill · « **Reply #34 on:** November 05, 2013, 07:08 »

Quote from: leaf on November 05, 2013, 04:58

Two artists swapping services (a model needing images for their port and a photographer needing a model for their images) is different than an ad agency expecting someone to work for free.

The world of advertising and the arts and photography in general is very much about people starting out, or being tried out by working for free. Whether as interns or assistants, or unpaid runners etc. You start out sleeping on a friend's sofa and getting the coffees. That's definitely one part of how people have always built working relationships.

Quote from: leaf on November 05, 2013, 04:58

I feel that if you are making $$ from the images you should be paying the models $$.

Yes I agree. But many photographers don't. Especially in the world of stock. In the world of fashion I think it is more acceptable for people to model for tear sheets - e.g. on a magazine shoot where nobody is getting paid by the magazine but, say, the clothes have been supplied free.

EmberMike · « **Reply #35 on:** November 05, 2013, 12:46 »

I wish I could chalk this one up to a lone idiot at Grey, but looking at their facebook page it sounds like this may be more of a pattern of behavior. There was a post a few months back accusing them of advertising paid internships for less than minimum wage. Which of course is illegal with just a few exceptions, none of which apply to a for-profit ad agency.

Maybe Roy Torres is simply following the lead he is being shown from within Grey. Doesn't make what he did ok, but would shed some light on where some of this kind of behavior comes from.

cthoman · « **Reply #36 on:** November 05, 2013, 12:56 »

Quote from: bhr on November 05, 2013, 07:08

The world of advertising and the arts and photography in general is very much about people starting out, or being tried out by working for free. Whether as interns or assistants, or unpaid runners etc. You start out sleeping on a friend's sofa and getting the coffees. That's definitely one part of how people have always built working relationships.

That's never been part of my world.

bunhill · « **Reply #37 on:** November 05, 2013, 14:35 »

Quote from: cthoman on November 05, 2013, 12:56

That's never been part of my world.

My very best work experience, also many of my best life experiences and several friends for life came out of my unpaid internship at a photo agency - and the work which I got afterwards as a result of it - the next 2 permanent jobs actually. It was also my introduction to life in 2 capital cities. Wouldn't have missed it for anything.

Shelma1 · « **Reply #38 on:** November 05, 2013, 15:11 »

Quote from: bhr on November 05, 2013, 14:35

Quote from: cthoman on November 05, 2013, 12:56
That's never been part of my world.

My very best work experience, also many of my best life experiences and several friends for life came out of my unpaid internship at a photo agency - and the work which I got afterwards as a result of it - the next 2 permanent jobs actually. It was also my introduction to life in 2 capital cities. Wouldn't have missed it for anything.

How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).

bunhill · « **Reply #39 on:** November 05, 2013, 15:56 »

Quote from: Shelma1 on November 05, 2013, 15:11

How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).

I lived on friends' sofas (I paid them back later) and then for free in a building which was scheduled for demolition. I did every bit of assisting for cash which was offered and also worked at the weekends. The agency paid my travel pass and quite often someone there would feed me. I lived from day to day on very little money without ever really planning ahead - which is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s.

Ron · « **Reply #40 on:** November 05, 2013, 16:07 »

Quote from: bhr on November 05, 2013, 15:56

Quote from: Shelma1 on November 05, 2013, 15:11
How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).

I lived on friends' sofas (I paid them back later) and then for free in a building which was scheduled for demolition. I did every bit of assisting for cash which was offered and also worked at the weekends. The agency paid my travel pass and quite often someone there would feed me. I lived from day to day on very little money without ever really planning ahead - which is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s.

COme on, thats a load of bull. If you are living on a couch and in abandoned buildings you are a stray dog. Even at 20.

cthoman · « **Reply #41 on:** November 05, 2013, 16:28 »

Quote from: bhr on November 05, 2013, 15:56

Quote from: Shelma1 on November 05, 2013, 15:11
How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).

I lived on friends' sofas (I paid them back later) and then for free in a building which was scheduled for demolition. I did every bit of assisting for cash which was offered and also worked at the weekends. The agency paid my travel pass and quite often someone there would feed me. I lived from day to day on very little money without ever really planning ahead - which is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s.

There's nothing wrong with that. But after 4 years of college, I was ready to go out, earn some money and put that BFA degree to work.

loop · « **Reply #42 on:** November 05, 2013, 18:47 »

Quote from: bhr on November 05, 2013, 04:41

Not much different from photographers trying to get away without paying models for commercial work.

Totally different. A model just does a TFCD swap if she/he wants.There's a agreement on both sides. But an image stealer doesn't make any agreement with the image author. It's no a small, its a huge difference, in case you didn't notice it.

EmberMike · « **Reply #43 on:** November 05, 2013, 19:46 »

Quote from: bhr on November 05, 2013, 14:35

My very best work experience, also many of my best life experiences and several friends for life came out of my unpaid internship at a photo agency - and the work which I got afterwards as a result of it - the next 2 permanent jobs actually. It was also my introduction to life in 2 capital cities. Wouldn't have missed it for anything.

There's nothing wrong with unpaid internships, when done properly and legally. The experience can be valuable.

It is wrong, however, for any company to assume that seasoned professionals and people with established portfolios would work for free. Or that they should cut art completely out of the budget with the full intention of finding free work from pros who should be paid.

That's the big difference here. Internships are for learning, and you pay for the experience you get by helping out the pros you are learning from. What Grey is doing is soliciting people who do great work (the kind of work they should be paying for and not the kind of work an intern would do) to produce their ad artwork for free.

They wouldn't put an intern into an account manager position I'm sure, but they seem to have no problem asking for free work to put into the final product that they sell to that account/client.

jbarber873 · « **Reply #44 on:** November 06, 2013, 19:38 »

Quote from: Ron on November 05, 2013, 16:07

Quote from: bhr on November 05, 2013, 15:56
Quote from: Shelma1 on November 05, 2013, 15:11
How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).

I lived on friends' sofas (I paid them back later) and then for free in a building which was scheduled for demolition. I did every bit of assisting for cash which was offered and also worked at the weekends. The agency paid my travel pass and quite often someone there would feed me. I lived from day to day on very little money without ever really planning ahead - which is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s.
COme on, thats a load of bull. If you are living on a couch and in abandoned buildings you are a stray dog. Even at 20.

I did that when I first came to NYC. Lived on a friend's couch, and worked at studios for free to make connections. I made money by making deliveries for the photographers, charging for a cab and taking the subway. I could clear $50 a week that way, which paid for food. And I eventually got hired by one of the studios I was helping out. It was one of the greatest times of my life. I was 17 though- I guess that makes it ok.

Ron · « **Reply #45 on:** November 07, 2013, 03:26 »

Quote from: jbarber873 on November 06, 2013, 19:38

Quote from: Ron on November 05, 2013, 16:07
Quote from: bhr on November 05, 2013, 15:56
Quote from: Shelma1 on November 05, 2013, 15:11
How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).

I lived on friends' sofas (I paid them back later) and then for free in a building which was scheduled for demolition. I did every bit of assisting for cash which was offered and also worked at the weekends. The agency paid my travel pass and quite often someone there would feed me. I lived from day to day on very little money without ever really planning ahead - which is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s.
COme on, thats a load of bull. If you are living on a couch and in abandoned buildings you are a stray dog. Even at 20.

I did that when I first came to NYC. Lived on a friend's couch, and worked at studios for free to make connections. I made money by making deliveries for the photographers, charging for a cab and taking the subway. I could clear $50 a week that way, which paid for food. And I eventually got hired by one of the studios I was helping out. It was one of the greatest times of my life. I was 17 though- I guess that makes it ok.

Sure, some people can do that, but he said its the way it should be when you are 20. I just say it shouldnt be like that at all. Can you imagine if all 20 year old graduates lived on couches and in abandoned buildings. LOL. Its BS.

bunhill · « **Reply #46 on:** November 07, 2013, 03:54 »

Quote from: Ron on November 07, 2013, 03:26

Sure, some people can do that, but he said its the way it should be when you are 20. I just say it shouldnt be like that at all. Can you imagine if all 20 year old graduates lived on couches and in abandoned buildings. LOL. Its BS.

Probably, with english as a 2nd language, you are misunderstanding what I mean when I say that is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s. It is not supposed to be literal. I do not propose that all 20-somethings live on the friends' sofas or in buildings which are scheduled for demolition. Said like that it is really only intended to imply a general sense - in this case that more people should take a chance.

Equally I am probably misunderstanding your use of english when you use expressions like "bull" and BS which seem out of place in an otherwise friendly conversation.

Ron · « **Reply #47 on:** November 07, 2013, 05:48 »

Sure, I agree with your completely different explanation. And BS and bull apply if you meant it literally, which you dont, you mean something completely different, so then its not bull. I guess.

bunhill · « **Reply #48 on:** November 07, 2013, 09:42 »

Quote from: loop on November 05, 2013, 18:47

Totally different. A model just does a TFCD swap if she/he wants.There's a agreement on both sides. But an image stealer doesn't make any agreement with the image author. It's no a small, its a huge difference, in case you didn't notice it.

But this is not about an "image stealer". It's about someone from an agency offering an artist the chance to build a relationship in exchange for work. It's a swap. There would have been agreement on both sides but the artist declined.

An artist or photographer working for tearsheets is no different from a model working in exchange for pictures.

Shelma1 · « **Reply #49 on:** November 08, 2013, 12:46 »

Similar subject being discussed again in the NY Times...

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/11/07/the-cost-of-being-an-artist/instead-of-exploiting-artists-pay-them

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Author Topic: Our own kind looking for free work / using images from Google search (Read 28340 times)

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Ron

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Red Dove

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gillian vann

bunhill

leaf

Ron

bunhill

EmberMike

cthoman

bunhill

Shelma1

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Ron

cthoman

loop

EmberMike

jbarber873

Ron

bunhill

Ron

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Shelma1

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