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Microstock Photography Forum - General => General Photography Discussion => Topic started by: Ron on November 03, 2013, 04:37
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Found this link posted in the symbiostock forum, its about a guy wanting free work from a talented illustrator
http://neechart.blogspot.jp/2013/11/artists-beware-roy-torres-of-grey.html (http://neechart.blogspot.jp/2013/11/artists-beware-roy-torres-of-grey.html)
In the comments there is a link to presentation from this guy Roy Torres
Its a very bad presentation of him, its even out of focus for the first minute or so, using copyrighted work taken of Google. I am not sure if that is allowed as fair use, but at 3.26 there is an image from Tyler (Leaf)
Ray Torres - Associate Creative Director - Grey, New York (complete presentation) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/70109742)
It seems he is not taking copyright and paying for work very seriously, with is a disgrace as he is a photographer and art director himself
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Just a heads up, the first link seems a bit dodgy, tries to download some kind of program supposed to be a Java update. Maybe their site got hacked by someone who didn't like what they had to say?
ETA just tried again and didn't get the dodgy message this time, so not sure what's going on?
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Amazing. What a AZZ Roy is, particularly in his response to Travis. Just another sponge wanting to get his greedy hooks in the hard work of other people for free.
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Just a heads up, the first link seems a bit dodgy, tries to download some kind of program supposed to be a Java update. Maybe their site got hacked by someone who didn't like what they had to say?
ETA just tried again and didn't get the dodgy message this time, so not sure what's going on?
NO issues for me, it just takes me to the blog, no warnings, and bit defender is not alarming me either.
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Amazing. What a AZZ Roy is, particularly in his response to Travis. Just another sponge wanting to get his greedy hooks in the hard work of other people for free.
The reply was shocking indeed.
His work is cool, but what a way to treat your own kind.
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Amazing. What a AZZ Roy is, particularly in his response to Travis. Just another sponge wanting to get his greedy hooks in the hard work of other people for free.
The reply was shocking indeed.
His work is cool, but what a way to treat your own kind.
Totally. Zero respect and appreciation for the skills, talent and time that go into production of this art.
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Personally, I try not to be confrontational in the responses I give to email inquiries. They're just going to lead to exchanges like this and nothing is resolved or changed.
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Personally, I try not to be confrontational in the responses I give to email inquiries. They're just going to lead to exchanges like this and nothing is resolved or changed.
I don't think Travis was confrontational in his response. He was professional and very plainly explained why he can't and won't work for free.
I've had the unfortunate opportunity to work for a dirtbag like Torres before, the sort of people who are happy to take and take from artists for their own benefit and profit but don't see the need to pay for the work. I actually really like that people are calling out these predatory art directors and helping to spread the word that this kind of stuff is not acceptable.
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Personally, I try not to be confrontational in the responses I give to email inquiries. They're just going to lead to exchanges like this and nothing is resolved or changed.
I don't think Travis was confrontational in his response. He was professional and very plainly explained why he can't and won't work for free.
I've had the unfortunate opportunity to work for a dirtbag like Torres before, the sort of people who are happy to take and take from artists for their own benefit and profit but don't see the need to pay for the work. I actually really like that people are calling out these predatory art directors and helping to spread the word that this kind of stuff is not acceptable.
No, I thought he was very professional and polite, but even opening a dialogue seems to lead to confrontation. I think it is because what you are really saying (between the lines) is "why don't you pay me you cheapskate". Just like when they say, "I love your work, but I can't pay you". Does anybody really think they love your work at that point? ;)
If I own a coffee shop (like in the example), I don't need to explain to anybody why I need to charge for coffee. I just point to the board with the prices and ask if they want to order something.
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I hope he likes working at Grey, because this story is making the advertising rounds.
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No, I thought he was very professional and polite, but even opening a dialogue seems to lead to confrontation. I think it is because what you are really saying (between the lines) is "why don't you pay me you cheapskate". Just like when they say, "I love your work, but I can't pay you". Does anybody really think they love your work at that point? ;)
If I own a coffee shop (like in the example), I don't need to explain to anybody why I need to charge for coffee. I just point to the board with the prices and ask if they want to order something.
True, it does tend to lead to confrontation. But I think it's a confrontation we need to be willing to have more often. Because right now, it's a far-too-common misconception that the menu at the proverbial art and design coffee shop should still say $0 next to each item.
None of us wants to waste time with these jokers who aren't willing to pay. But I think ignoring the jokers is part of the reason why they keep coming around looking for free work.
Let's face it, every one of us wants to say "yes" when a company like Grey comes knocking. But even when it's a company like that, I still think it's important to politely say no and explain why, even if it results in an email exchange like the one seen here.
Matter of fact, I think when a request for free work comes in from a company like this, the fact that it's coming from such a high-profile company with household-name clients and award-winning ADs makes it that much more important to respond and (sometimes) call attention to the request publicly, like the artist in question did here.
We see big companies like Walmart getting called out all the time for poor pay, poor employee treatment, etc. Here's a company offering zero pay. They're worse than Walmart, if you ask me, so how can we not call them out and try to bring some attention to this issue?
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These stories always make me think of this:
https://vimeo.com/22053820
Probably NSFW for some language but so appropriate. :)
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Great video!
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Emails like these are unfortunate but numerous, but in most scenarios, the person requesting doesn't normally respond when "called out" or rejected. This one in particular shocks me - faced with rejection, the creative director goes on to call Travis a "fake artist" and suggest that there was nothing special or outstanding about his portfolio.
What was his plan... to insult the artist until they gave in? :S
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I think it's best to not enter in arguments about why one can't work for free or anything that looks like you are trying to change their mind or convince them they are wrong.
Just answer something like this:
Thank you for contacting me!
If you are interested in my services here are the prices...
Best!
They won't answer back, no confrontation.
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Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.
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These stories always make me think of this:
[url]https://vimeo.com/22053820[/url] ([url]https://vimeo.com/22053820[/url])
Probably NSFW for some language but so appropriate. :)
And this one.
The Vendor Client relationship - in real world situations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY#ws)
I get contacted pretty regularly with the "we'll give you credit" pitch. I've gotten to the point where I either respond with prices or don't respond. When I don't respond if they want the image bad enough they eventually contact me again asking about fees.
I had one guy I responded to with fees respond back with a somewhat dismissive tone. Amazingly this guy was based in a very wealthy area of Southern California. I responded to him that when camera equipment manufacturers, computer makers, airline companies, gas companies, and all the rest stop charging for their products and services I will too.
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Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.
I had a request once from a cruise business, they found one of my images on Flickr and they wanted to use on of my Howth cliff images for their website because their in-house photographer was sick or something. Sure they could, I asked 10 dollar for the web use. They never came back to me. 10 (!) dollar, if thats an insult to you, than its even a bigger insult to me that you find that too much. They used another image.
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Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.
I had a request once from a cruise business, they found one of my images on Flickr and they wanted to use on of my Howth cliff images for their website because their in-house photographer was sick or something. Sure they could, I asked 10 dollar for the web use. They never came back to me. 10 (!) dollar, if thats an insult to you, than its even a bigger insult to me that you find that too much. They used another image.
Most just want it for free and think that the photographer will just be happy having their work published in some way. I have had plenty of stuff published (30-40 articles, book) and it no longer is exciting to me unless I get paid. And $10? That smacks of pure business idiocracy.
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Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.
I had a request once from a cruise business, they found one of my images on Flickr and they wanted to use on of my Howth cliff images for their website because their in-house photographer was sick or something. Sure they could, I asked 10 dollar for the web use. They never came back to me. 10 (!) dollar, if thats an insult to you, than its even a bigger insult to me that you find that too much. They used another image.
Most just want it for free and think that the photographer will just be happy having their work published in some way. I have had plenty of stuff published (30-40 articles, book) and it no longer is exciting to me unless I get paid. And $10? That smacks of pure business idiocracy.
You mean my price is way too low, or that they wouldnt pay it?
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I had a request once from a cruise business...
One of the comments I've read in regards to this Roy Torres case is this: "Multi-millionaires become multi-millionaires by pleading poverty every hour of every day."
Your story reminds me of that sentiment as well. These companies have money. Lots of it in some cases. Roy Torres himself probably isn't suffering financially, being an award-winning art director for a hot Park Avenue ad agency. But these companies probably stay flush with cash in part by ripping off the folks who supply the creative material for the ads they sell to their clients. What's better than selling an ad to a client for $50k? Selling an ad for $50k without spending a dime on photos, art, etc.
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Actually, ad agencies usually provide a detailed breakdown of expenditures. And clients are willing to pay good money for art and photography. It sounds more to me like Torres is having a tough time getting his creative work approved at boring, awful Grey ("There's a reason they call it Grey"), and was trying to do some spec work that he could pay to run once somewhere so it would qualify for award shows. The client probably wasn't interested.
Now, if you and your buddies want to get together and do some spec work with the mutual agreement that it may win you some awards and get you a better job, great. I did that with one of the art directors I work with for a director who wanted to expand her reel, and we all got a nice spec commercial for our websites. But to ask someone you don't know to do work for free on the slim chance your unwanted spec work will win an award is pretty ballsy.
His nasty put-down is coming back to bite him.
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What a dbag. Looking at the link to his presentation to the Miami Ad School, his lack of professionalism seems to be the norm - drinking beer during a presentation to students? Showing a bunch of Goggled images for his life story and basically just running some reels from Gray without any explanation of his involvement in the creative process. My guess is he is basically the guy they send out to pick up the sandwiches.
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Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.
I had a request once from a cruise business, they found one of my images on Flickr and they wanted to use on of my Howth cliff images for their website because their in-house photographer was sick or something. Sure they could, I asked 10 dollar for the web use. They never came back to me. 10 (!) dollar, if thats an insult to you, than its even a bigger insult to me that you find that too much. They used another image.
Most just want it for free and think that the photographer will just be happy having their work published in some way. I have had plenty of stuff published (30-40 articles, book) and it no longer is exciting to me unless I get paid. And $10? That smacks of pure business idiocracy.
You mean my price is way too low, or that they wouldnt pay it?
No I mean that if a cruise line won't fork out $10 to be legal they are idiots. Not targeted at you.
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Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.
I had a request once from a cruise business, they found one of my images on Flickr and they wanted to use on of my Howth cliff images for their website because their in-house photographer was sick or something. Sure they could, I asked 10 dollar for the web use. They never came back to me. 10 (!) dollar, if thats an insult to you, than its even a bigger insult to me that you find that too much. They used another image.
Most just want it for free and think that the photographer will just be happy having their work published in some way. I have had plenty of stuff published (30-40 articles, book) and it no longer is exciting to me unless I get paid. And $10? That smacks of pure business idiocracy.
You mean my price is way too low, or that they wouldnt pay it?
No I mean that if a cruise line won't fork out $10 to be legal they are idiots. Not targeted at you.
I agree, thats what is frustrating or angering. You give them an absolute fair price, and its still not good enough. A ticket is 19 euros, I should ask them if its ok if I took the cruise for free.
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Completely missing the point there. But you'll say anything to get some attention.
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I recently extracted payment* from my own mother for some portrait work so you can imagine the short shrift I give to penny pinching fleabags asking me to work for a pat on the back - and I don't care who they are or where they are from.
*Admittedly this payment was in the form of a bottle of Tullamore Dew and thus heavily discounted...but I got paid!
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*Admittedly this payment was in the form of a bottle of Tullamore Dew and thus heavily discounted...but I got paid!
Yummmmm
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I wouldn't want a cruise ticket either, I'm sure we all have done our fair share of contra, but ultimately we all prefer, need, cash.
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Not much different from photographers trying to get away without paying models for commercial work.
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Not much different from photographers trying to get away without paying models for commercial work.
Two artists swapping services (a model needing images for their port and a photographer needing a model for their images) is different than an ad agency expecting someone to work for free. That said, I'd still recommend always paying your models. I feel that if you are making $$ from the images you should be paying the models $$. For images simply to try something new or creative for a personal portfolio, perhaps a swap is more fair.
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@ Leaf, is that use of your image in the presentation allowed?
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Two artists swapping services (a model needing images for their port and a photographer needing a model for their images) is different than an ad agency expecting someone to work for free.
The world of advertising and the arts and photography in general is very much about people starting out, or being tried out by working for free. Whether as interns or assistants, or unpaid runners etc. You start out sleeping on a friend's sofa and getting the coffees. That's definitely one part of how people have always built working relationships.
I feel that if you are making $$ from the images you should be paying the models $$.
Yes I agree. But many photographers don't. Especially in the world of stock. In the world of fashion I think it is more acceptable for people to model for tear sheets - e.g. on a magazine shoot where nobody is getting paid by the magazine but, say, the clothes have been supplied free.
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I wish I could chalk this one up to a lone idiot at Grey, but looking at their facebook page it sounds like this may be more of a pattern of behavior. There was a post a few months back accusing them of advertising paid internships for less than minimum wage. Which of course is illegal with just a few exceptions, none of which apply to a for-profit ad agency.
Maybe Roy Torres is simply following the lead he is being shown from within Grey. Doesn't make what he did ok, but would shed some light on where some of this kind of behavior comes from.
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The world of advertising and the arts and photography in general is very much about people starting out, or being tried out by working for free. Whether as interns or assistants, or unpaid runners etc. You start out sleeping on a friend's sofa and getting the coffees. That's definitely one part of how people have always built working relationships.
That's never been part of my world.
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That's never been part of my world.
My very best work experience, also many of my best life experiences and several friends for life came out of my unpaid internship at a photo agency - and the work which I got afterwards as a result of it - the next 2 permanent jobs actually. It was also my introduction to life in 2 capital cities. Wouldn't have missed it for anything.
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That's never been part of my world.
My very best work experience, also many of my best life experiences and several friends for life came out of my unpaid internship at a photo agency - and the work which I got afterwards as a result of it - the next 2 permanent jobs actually. It was also my introduction to life in 2 capital cities. Wouldn't have missed it for anything.
How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).
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How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).
I lived on friends' sofas (I paid them back later) and then for free in a building which was scheduled for demolition. I did every bit of assisting for cash which was offered and also worked at the weekends. The agency paid my travel pass and quite often someone there would feed me. I lived from day to day on very little money without ever really planning ahead - which is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s.
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How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).
I lived on friends' sofas (I paid them back later) and then for free in a building which was scheduled for demolition. I did every bit of assisting for cash which was offered and also worked at the weekends. The agency paid my travel pass and quite often someone there would feed me. I lived from day to day on very little money without ever really planning ahead - which is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s.
COme on, thats a load of bull. If you are living on a couch and in abandoned buildings you are a stray dog. Even at 20.
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How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).
I lived on friends' sofas (I paid them back later) and then for free in a building which was scheduled for demolition. I did every bit of assisting for cash which was offered and also worked at the weekends. The agency paid my travel pass and quite often someone there would feed me. I lived from day to day on very little money without ever really planning ahead - which is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s.
There's nothing wrong with that. But after 4 years of college, I was ready to go out, earn some money and put that BFA degree to work.
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Not much different from photographers trying to get away without paying models for commercial work.
Totally different. A model just does a TFCD swap if she/he wants.There's a agreement on both sides. But an image stealer doesn't make any agreement with the image author. It's no a small, its a huge difference, in case you didn't notice it.
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My very best work experience, also many of my best life experiences and several friends for life came out of my unpaid internship at a photo agency - and the work which I got afterwards as a result of it - the next 2 permanent jobs actually. It was also my introduction to life in 2 capital cities. Wouldn't have missed it for anything.
There's nothing wrong with unpaid internships, when done properly and legally. The experience can be valuable.
It is wrong, however, for any company to assume that seasoned professionals and people with established portfolios would work for free. Or that they should cut art completely out of the budget with the full intention of finding free work from pros who should be paid.
That's the big difference here. Internships are for learning, and you pay for the experience you get by helping out the pros you are learning from. What Grey is doing is soliciting people who do great work (the kind of work they should be paying for and not the kind of work an intern would do) to produce their ad artwork for free.
They wouldn't put an intern into an account manager position I'm sure, but they seem to have no problem asking for free work to put into the final product that they sell to that account/client.
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How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).
I lived on friends' sofas (I paid them back later) and then for free in a building which was scheduled for demolition. I did every bit of assisting for cash which was offered and also worked at the weekends. The agency paid my travel pass and quite often someone there would feed me. I lived from day to day on very little money without ever really planning ahead - which is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s.
COme on, thats a load of bull. If you are living on a couch and in abandoned buildings you are a stray dog. Even at 20.
I did that when I first came to NYC. Lived on a friend's couch, and worked at studios for free to make connections. I made money by making deliveries for the photographers, charging for a cab and taking the subway. I could clear $50 a week that way, which paid for food. And I eventually got hired by one of the studios I was helping out. It was one of the greatest times of my life. I was 17 though- I guess that makes it ok.
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How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).
I lived on friends' sofas (I paid them back later) and then for free in a building which was scheduled for demolition. I did every bit of assisting for cash which was offered and also worked at the weekends. The agency paid my travel pass and quite often someone there would feed me. I lived from day to day on very little money without ever really planning ahead - which is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s.
COme on, thats a load of bull. If you are living on a couch and in abandoned buildings you are a stray dog. Even at 20.
I did that when I first came to NYC. Lived on a friend's couch, and worked at studios for free to make connections. I made money by making deliveries for the photographers, charging for a cab and taking the subway. I could clear $50 a week that way, which paid for food. And I eventually got hired by one of the studios I was helping out. It was one of the greatest times of my life. I was 17 though- I guess that makes it ok.
Sure, some people can do that, but he said its the way it should be when you are 20. I just say it shouldnt be like that at all. Can you imagine if all 20 year old graduates lived on couches and in abandoned buildings. LOL. Its BS.
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Sure, some people can do that, but he said its the way it should be when you are 20. I just say it shouldnt be like that at all. Can you imagine if all 20 year old graduates lived on couches and in abandoned buildings. LOL. Its BS.
Probably, with english as a 2nd language, you are misunderstanding what I mean when I say that is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s. It is not supposed to be literal. I do not propose that all 20-somethings live on the friends' sofas or in buildings which are scheduled for demolition. Said like that it is really only intended to imply a general sense - in this case that more people should take a chance.
Equally I am probably misunderstanding your use of english when you use expressions like "bull" and BS which seem out of place in an otherwise friendly conversation.
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Sure, I agree with your completely different explanation. And BS and bull apply if you meant it literally, which you dont, you mean something completely different, so then its not bull. I guess. :)
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Totally different. A model just does a TFCD swap if she/he wants.There's a agreement on both sides. But an image stealer doesn't make any agreement with the image author. It's no a small, its a huge difference, in case you didn't notice it.
But this is not about an "image stealer". It's about someone from an agency offering an artist the chance to build a relationship in exchange for work. It's a swap. There would have been agreement on both sides but the artist declined.
An artist or photographer working for tearsheets is no different from a model working in exchange for pictures.
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Similar subject being discussed again in the NY Times...
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/11/07/the-cost-of-being-an-artist/instead-of-exploiting-artists-pay-them (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/11/07/the-cost-of-being-an-artist/instead-of-exploiting-artists-pay-them)
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How did you afford it? I had to work my way through college and needed a paying job the minute I graduated. There's no way I could take an unpaid internship, which by the way is pretty common in the ad industry (and disgusting, IMO, as summer interns are treated like gofers).
I lived on friends' sofas (I paid them back later) and then for free in a building which was scheduled for demolition. I did every bit of assisting for cash which was offered and also worked at the weekends. The agency paid my travel pass and quite often someone there would feed me. I lived from day to day on very little money without ever really planning ahead - which is exactly how it should be when you are in your early 20s.
Speaking about the free internships.. I didn't ever do it but I wish I had. When starting out - out of high school I thought that University was very important (and it probably is important.. at least a bit). I did a degree in photography and ended up with very little that I could actually apply to running a studio or making a living any other way as a photographer. At the time I also visited a photo studio that offered to take me on as an unpaid assistant but I didn't take it because I felt it was a rip-off.
In retrospect, if I wanted the best education to be a professional working photographer I should have worked for free for 4 years for the photographer and save the uni tuition and I would have been a lot further ahead than 4 years of university. I learned lots at the uni as well but not much directly related to working as a photographer.