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Microstock Photography Forum - General => General Photography Discussion => Topic started by: Graffoto on September 13, 2009, 00:36

Title: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: Graffoto on September 13, 2009, 00:36
I don't too often shoot outdoors, but I do the occasional beach shoot.

Usually I attempt early AM or late afternoon to avoid the harsh shadows of the sun, but that also means I often wind up with an overcast looking sky.

So how much power is really needed to over-power overhead full daylight?
I currently have two 330 ws and two 660 ws strobes.

The shot below was done using the two 660 ws strobes connected to a Vagabond battery pack. Even with that much power going for me, I had to have an assistant cut the ambient with a diffusion cloth held to the models left.
Shot @ 1/125 f7.1

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x253/graffoto/20080823-_MG_3881-Edit-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: Dreamframer on September 13, 2009, 06:03
I don't know the answer, but I'm sure you could pack all your equipment, fly to Greece, find any beach, and you will never have overcast sky or fog in the morning :) That would probably be very expensive photo session, but I'm sure you will have great time there :)
Stay away from oceans :)

Now, someone with real answer please..
Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: Perry on September 13, 2009, 06:44
I think you answered your own question with the image and information you posted, you seem to do just ok without our guidance :)

One thing to considerate is the flash sync speed of your camera, with a 1/500s sync speed (Hasselblad etc.) you get some advantage compared to a slow curtain shutter (35mm SLR's)
(Was 1/125s the fastest sync speed on your camera?)


Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: Graffoto on September 13, 2009, 09:16
Yeah,  Canon 5D MK 1, manual sync speed is 1/125 sec.
I can get high speed sync using speedlights, but I don't think that's a good alternative.
Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: Perry on September 13, 2009, 09:21
Have you tried faster sync speeds? If I remember correctly 1/200s is the utter maximum of 5D, I have had many succesful shoots using 1/160s with Elinchrom gear. I know, that's only a 1/3 stop shorter speed, but still...
Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: Graffoto on September 13, 2009, 10:46
I have tried 1/160 and it seems OK but any faster and I get curtain shadow at the edge of the frame.
I have only tried this in studio where my illumination is totally dependent on strobe.

However shooting outdoors with the sun as the main ambient source, I might be able to get away with a higher sync speed as I really only need the strobe to light the main subject. The ambient might take care of the rear curtain shadow problem.

Thanks for the suggestion, I may try that next time.
Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: davey_rocket on September 14, 2009, 10:09
I am no lighting expect but I wanted to point something out. 

The first thing I thought when I saw the picture was that it was a studio shot isolated and pasted onto a beach background.  The lighting on the model is very diffuse and contradicts what the lighting on the beach looks like.  As I profered above I'm no expert and I have no solution to offer.

Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: Digital66 on September 14, 2009, 13:49
It seems like you just needed fill light for such image.

If you are interested in over-powering the sunlight take a look at Joe McNally's work in the desert.  Like this: The Desert, Part II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7qEgl2uQHg&feature=channel_page#ws-normal)
Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: Graffoto on September 14, 2009, 16:17
That's a whole lotta speedlights!
Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: Pixart on September 14, 2009, 16:51
You may want to pick up a neutral density filter.  Also, I have used my CP from time to time for an extra stop, but if your model has pink tones in the skin a polarizer exaggerates them.
Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: goldenangel on September 14, 2009, 17:05
You may want to pick up a neutral density filter.  Also, I have used my CP from time to time for an extra stop, but if your model has pink tones in the skin a polarizer exaggerates them.
Thanks for the tip! I have been thinking about getting a CP. Being in California with a lot of sunny days, I think it would help me anyway.
Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: gostwyck on September 14, 2009, 19:47
I am no lighting expect but I wanted to point something out. 

The first thing I thought when I saw the picture was that it was a studio shot isolated and pasted onto a beach background.  The lighting on the model is very diffuse and contradicts what the lighting on the beach looks like.  As I profered above I'm no expert and I have no solution to offer.



I thought exactly the same thing. If you had the skills to light that girl like that against that background you'd hardly be here asking for basic advice.
Title: Re: Overpowering the sun, how much power is really needed?
Post by: Graffoto on September 14, 2009, 20:40
I am no lighting expect but I wanted to point something out.  

The first thing I thought when I saw the picture was that it was a studio shot isolated and pasted onto a beach background.  The lighting on the model is very diffuse and contradicts what the lighting on the beach looks like.  As I proffered above I'm no expert and I have no solution to offer.




I thought exactly the same thing. If you had the skills to light that girl like that against that background you'd hardly be here asking for basic advice.


Oy, give me a break guys.

If you look at a sports illustrated swimsuit issue, you will see similar lighting set ups.

I did this shot with an assistant holding a scrim (diffusion screen) to the model's left (camera right).
I used a polarizer to cut the ambient light and darken the sky.
So between the filter on the lens and the diffusion material I managed to cut the light down about 2.5-3 stops.
That was enough so that I could use my 660 ws strobes with a beauty dish on one and a white umbrella on the other to act as fill and even out the exposure.

But that is not my question.

What I am interested in, is knowing how much power I need to turn broad daylight into something less than nuclear bright.
As a matter of fact I would like to be able to shoot in broad daylight without the use of any scrims and make it look like late afternoon.

So the question still goes unanswered. Assume 1/125 -1/200 sec and ISO 100.
What would it take? Would it take 1200 ws or 2400 ws? More?

ETA: I think I found my answer here: http://www.stepheneastwood.com/tutorials/skychart/skychart.htm (http://www.stepheneastwood.com/tutorials/skychart/skychart.htm)
Thanks for all the input everyone!