Author Topic: Generative AI - CHILD FORUM PROPOSAL (and a VERY BRUTALLY HONEST VIDEO ) (Read 4332 times)

zorba · « **on:** May 06, 2023, 04:14 »

I don't know how to tell this to an admin. (see the subject)

But this video is a crystal clear and brutally honest thought that I found shared in some group in some social:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Gowh5paPo (title "A.I. Is Going to Destroy the Stock Photography Market (And It's Coming For Your Porn Too!)" by photographer Andy Hutchinson)

I appreciate the part about porn and recognizing that it is all generative production of anything that can touch the senses (audio/video) and digitizable. If it can be digitally reproduced, an iA can do it, it's just a matter of time. Porn has always been a frontier and experimental market for everything: it works or it doesn't work, it can be done or it can't be done, both technically and legally, it is economically viable or not and on what terms.

So I consider watching this video to reason, lucidly, remembering that when we feel fragile we tend to always listen to those who reassure us.

it is really hard to know what to do in the future, and it would be very very nice to be able to reason ASSEMBLY with the platforms-they do not feel like needing us and paying us. In the same way customers would like to do vis-à-vis the platforms.

Each of us is somewhere in this chain.

Lina · « **Reply #1 on:** May 06, 2023, 04:38 »

I'm afraid he might be right, we'll see. I loved this sentence: "I am belly laughing at this stock agencies because they're bunch of thieving soul suckking scam-eyes who've been ripping photographers off for decades so fuck those guys..."

Her Ugliness · « **Reply #2 on:** May 06, 2023, 05:11 »

Quote from: Lina on May 06, 2023, 04:38

I'm afraid he might be right, we'll see. I loved this sentence: "I am belly laughing at this stock agencies because they're bunch of thieving soul suckking scam-eyes who've been ripping photographers off for decades so fuck those guys..."

I admit I had that sentiment myself.

I am convinced AI will destroy my means of living, but I think "at least it will take down stock agencies with me". It's like the only good thing about it. Stock agencies played a huge role in devaluing artistic work and to this day they are looking for ways to pay us even less (See Adobe €-$ currency change) and AI is only completing what they started.

Lina · « **Reply #3 on:** May 06, 2023, 08:22 »

Quote from: Her Ugliness on May 06, 2023, 05:11

Quote from: Lina on May 06, 2023, 04:38
I'm afraid he might be right, we'll see. I loved this sentence: "I am belly laughing at this stock agencies because they're bunch of thieving soul suckking scam-eyes who've been ripping photographers off for decades so fuck those guys..."

I admit I had that sentiment myself.

I am convinced AI will destroy my means of living, but I think "at least it will take down stock agencies with me". It's like the only good thing about it. Stock agencies played a huge role in devaluing artistic work and to this day they are looking for ways to pay us even less (See Adobe €-$ currency change) and AI is only completing what they started.

I think I am finally done with stock agencies, I was hoping to make a living from it one day but obviously it will never happen. Currency change and mess Adobe made with accepting AI images were last straw for me. I will probably upload enough to get free software (if it continues) and that's all.

Actually maybe AI will make less need for buying stock images, but I don't think it will destroy it completely. I don't think it will ever be able to make good vector image, maybe some mess but nothing of good quality. Also yes, maybe some people will rather use AI sites than buying from stock, but clients who need lot of images don't have enough time and often knowledge to play with various prompts to get results they want. Plus, easy-to use AI sites are or will be paid for commercial use, not free so there is not too much benefit from using them instead of stock sites. So we'll see how will it all develop.

Lina · « **Reply #4 on:** May 06, 2023, 09:17 »

Quote from: zorba on May 06, 2023, 04:14

I don't know how to tell this to an admin. (see the subject)

But this video is a crystal clear and brutally honest thought that I found shared in some group in some social:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Gowh5paPo (title "A.I. Is Going to Destroy the Stock Photography Market (And It's Coming For Your Porn Too!)" by photographer Andy Hutchinson)

I appreciate the part about porn and recognizing that it is all generative production of anything that can touch the senses (audio/video) and digitizable. If it can be digitally reproduced, an iA can do it, it's just a matter of time. Porn has always been a frontier and experimental market for everything: it works or it doesn't work, it can be done or it can't be done, both technically and legally, it is economically viable or not and on what terms.

So I consider watching this video to reason, lucidly, remembering that when we feel fragile we tend to always listen to those who reassure us.

it is really hard to know what to do in the future, and it would be very very nice to be able to reason ASSEMBLY with the platforms-they do not feel like needing us and paying us. In the same way customers would like to do vis-à-vis the platforms.

Each of us is somewhere in this chain.

Regarding porn and (sensitive) variations of it, I think it should not have been allowed to happen. But as it is, I really really hope laws will be created soon and restrict AI use because it doesn't make sense, it can be very dangerous in wrong hands if it continues to be developed and used without restrictions.

Her Ugliness · « **Reply #5 on:** May 06, 2023, 10:45 »

Quote from: Lina on May 06, 2023, 08:22

but clients who need lot of images don't have enough time and often knowledge to play with various prompts to get results they want.

Which is no different than using a stock agency. You enter what you want (just like with AI image generation sites) in the search field and then you get various results that are mostly useless, usually because of completely irrelevant keywords added by the contributor. With AI, at least if I tell it to create a dog sitting in grass I don't get 5000 cat photos like on most stock agencies.

And there really is no great knowledge or playing around needed. I am still not sure what some people here are talking about or what crazy AI image generation sites you are using that you make writing prompts sound like rocket science. Just describe what you want in a few words and in 90% cases you will get a usable result at once. Works for me.

cobalt · « **Reply #6 on:** May 06, 2023, 11:12 »

Having a dedicated sub forum for generative ai sounds like a good idea.

Overall I am not yet convinced that ai images will destroy agencies or stock. Because At the moment my simple, often boring photos are vastly outselling my ai files.

In fact I will take a break from ai, maybe process the ones I still have but otherwise make a big push again for photography and video.

I have asked many non artists friends to try and get usable images out of dalle and stable and they were always disappointed.

Maybe when midjourney starts an app it might change, but most of the images I see coming out of midjourney is not content I would buy.

Either too bad or too perfect.

Perhaps that will improve over time, but for now there still is a lot of content to create that customers need and simply is not available.

zorba · « **Reply #7 on:** May 06, 2023, 13:34 »

Quote from: Lina on May 06, 2023, 04:38

I'm afraid he might be right, we'll see. I loved this sentence: "I am belly laughing at this stock agencies because they're bunch of thieving soul suckking scam-eyes who've been ripping photographers off for decades so fuck those guys..."

and I THANK you because I'm not a natural English speaker so this was too fast for me... I understood the general meaning of the sentence and the spirit, but I wanted to understand exactly. Thank you!!!

zorba · « **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2023, 13:45 »

Quote from: Her Ugliness on May 06, 2023, 05:11

Quote from: Lina on May 06, 2023, 04:38
I'm afraid he might be right, we'll see. I loved this sentence: "I am belly laughing at this stock agencies because they're bunch of thieving soul suckking scam-eyes who've been ripping photographers off for decades so fuck those guys..."

I admit I had that sentiment myself.

I am convinced AI will destroy my means of living, but I think "at least it will take down stock agencies with me". It's like the only good thing about it. Stock agencies played a huge role in devaluing artistic work and to this day they are looking for ways to pay us even less (See Adobe €-$ currency change) and AI is only completing what they started.

I really don't believe that the Big 3 agencies will fall. It is human beings at the lowest level of the chain (we all), but capable of doing specific work that instead now no longer requires skill, knowledge, and commitment -- who'll lose their jobs replaced by typing by the first * who comes by (although there are great scripters, there are also scripters who delegate to other Ai , and it is still the nature of all this to make specific and specialized human skill increasingly irrelevant, making anything idiot-proof; if it's not today it will be tomorrow, the nature of all this is to be very fast, faster than us humans).

But the agencies handle most of our royalties, they make more money than we do on what we produce - I don't think they will drop the bone that easily. While being disingenuous they will sell their skins dearly and say they care about us, our work, the value of copyright, and MAYBE do some legal battles, perhaps to manage the assets that feed the machine training. They will try to stay in the game, with or without us. They have the platforms, they have lawyers, they have facilities, they have sales capabilities, they have basic materials, they have customers and manage value.

Lina · « **Reply #9 on:** May 06, 2023, 14:05 »

Quote from: Her Ugliness on May 06, 2023, 10:45

And there really is no great knowledge or playing around needed. I am still not sure what some people here are talking about or what crazy AI image generation sites you are using that you make writing prompts sound like rocket science. Just describe what you want in a few words and in 90% cases you will get a usable result at once. Works for me.

I have different experience, I tried Midjourney and SD and got disappointing results, some low-quality images which weren't close to what I had in mind. I could play more, but I am not so interested and I believe average buyer wouldn't be either. And certainly wouldn't try to find software to upscale or find prompts which will create other aspect ratio than square etc.

Lina · « **Reply #10 on:** May 06, 2023, 14:10 »

Quote from: zorba on May 06, 2023, 13:34

Quote from: Lina on May 06, 2023, 04:38
I'm afraid he might be right, we'll see. I loved this sentence: "I am belly laughing at this stock agencies because they're bunch of thieving soul suckking scam-eyes who've been ripping photographers off for decades so fuck those guys..."

and I THANK you because I'm not a natural English speaker so this was too fast for me... I understood the general meaning of the sentence and the spirit, but I wanted to understand exactly. Thank you!!!

Haha, I am SO glad it was helpful.

I am not native speaker either, that's why I am often using english subtitles on Youtube (and that's how I caught his lovely sentence). Although they are not perfect, I highly recommended them.

Her Ugliness · « **Reply #11 on:** May 07, 2023, 03:12 »

Quote from: Lina on May 06, 2023, 14:05

Quote from: Her Ugliness on May 06, 2023, 10:45
And there really is no great knowledge or playing around needed. I am still not sure what some people here are talking about or what crazy AI image generation sites you are using that you make writing prompts sound like rocket science. Just describe what you want in a few words and in 90% cases you will get a usable result at once. Works for me.

I have different experience, I tried Midjourney and SD and got disappointing results, some low-quality images which weren't close to what I had in mind. I could play more, but I am not so interested and I believe average buyer wouldn't be either. And certainly wouldn't try to find software to upscale or find prompts which will create other aspect ratio than square etc.

When did you try this? Because I tried Midjourney as well when it was fairly new and thought the results were very unsatisfying.

But that has been a while and when Midjourney released their version 5 in March this year and I saw the images online the results were mind-blowing. So I tried it out again and as said I get almost perfect results most of the times with completely simple prompts where I do nothing but describe what I want in a few words.

They have already released version 5.1 by now, but I haven't tried it yet, because I still have thousands of AI images I need to keyword from my last try.

Lina · « **Reply #12 on:** May 07, 2023, 04:58 »

Quote from: Her Ugliness on May 07, 2023, 03:12

Quote from: Lina on May 06, 2023, 14:05
Quote from: Her Ugliness on May 06, 2023, 10:45
And there really is no great knowledge or playing around needed. I am still not sure what some people here are talking about or what crazy AI image generation sites you are using that you make writing prompts sound like rocket science. Just describe what you want in a few words and in 90% cases you will get a usable result at once. Works for me.

I have different experience, I tried Midjourney and SD and got disappointing results, some low-quality images which weren't close to what I had in mind. I could play more, but I am not so interested and I believe average buyer wouldn't be either. And certainly wouldn't try to find software to upscale or find prompts which will create other aspect ratio than square etc.

When did you try this? Because I tried Midjourney as well when it was fairly new and thought the results were very unsatisfying.

But that has been a while and when Midjourney released their version 5 in March this year and I saw the images online the results were mind-blowing. So I tried it out again and as said I get almost perfect results most of the times with completely simple prompts where I do nothing but describe what I want in a few words.

They have already released version 5.1 by now, but I haven't tried it yet, because I still have thousands of AI images I need to keyword from my last try.

Somewhere in beginning of this year, I believe. Probably it is time to try again.

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #13 on:** May 08, 2023, 13:21 »

Interesting video and he has a some very solid predictions.

I thought this was too finny. I couldn't forget how AI created these and it just shows how training can get conditioned to think of some word or product by repeating images, that the AI is skewed. Ketchup under a minute.

https://youtu.be/LFmpVy6eGXs

Firn · « **Reply #14 on:** May 09, 2023, 04:06 »

Quote from: Uncle Pete on May 08, 2023, 13:21

Interesting video and he has a some very solid predictions.

I thought this was too finny. I couldn't forget how AI created these and it just shows how training can get conditioned to think of some word or product by repeating images, that the AI is skewed. Ketchup under a minute.

https://youtu.be/LFmpVy6eGXs

This is indeed very interesting. And it's not the only case where you can notice that AI has been trained to "think" in stereotypes.

Anyone noticed that, when you have midjourney (and probbaly every other AI image generator) create a human, unless you specify, the human is always caucasian? Isn't that sad? For the AI the "default" human is caucasian. And that doesn't even represent the real state of the world, because there are more Asian and Indian people in the world than caucasian white people.

I've come across a lot of other strange stereotypical trainings with AI. I let midjourney generate dogs with all kinds of foods, not specifying the dog breed. When I wanted to have dogs with Sushi, it always gave me dogs resembling Shiba Inus, so a Japanese breed. I let it generate women with clorful hair and midjourney keeps giving me women with tattoos and so on...

ouatedeP · « **Reply #15 on:** May 10, 2023, 05:32 »

Quote from: Firn on May 09, 2023, 04:06

Quote from: Uncle Pete on May 08, 2023, 13:21
Interesting video and he has a some very solid predictions.

I thought this was too finny. I couldn't forget how AI created these and it just shows how training can get conditioned to think of some word or product by repeating images, that the AI is skewed. Ketchup under a minute.

https://youtu.be/LFmpVy6eGXs

This is indeed very interesting. And it's not the only case where you can notice that AI has been trained to "think" in stereotypes.

Anyone noticed that, when you have midjourney (and probbaly every other AI image generator) create a human, unless you specify, the human is always caucasian? Isn't that sad? For the AI the "default" human is caucasian. And that doesn't even represent the real state of the world, because there are more Asian and Indian people in the world than caucasian white people.

I've come across a lot of other strange stereotypical trainings with AI. I let midjourney generate dogs with all kinds of foods, not specifying the dog breed. When I wanted to have dogs with Sushi, it always gave me dogs resembling Shiba Inus, so a Japanese breed. I let it generate women with clorful hair and midjourney keeps giving me women with tattoos and so on...

same for the Text based AI. If you ask ChatGPT questions about sports competitions they tend to ignore women. For example "Who won most gold medals in Olympics Ice hockey" it will answer Vladislav Tretiak with 3, totally ignoring Hayley Wickenheiser with 4. (plenty of other examples)

alan b traehern · « **Reply #16 on:** May 11, 2023, 05:56 »

Quote from: Her Ugliness on May 06, 2023, 10:45

Quote from: Lina on May 06, 2023, 08:22
but clients who need lot of images don't have enough time and often knowledge to play with various prompts to get results they want.

Which is no different than using a stock agency. You enter what you want (just like with AI image generation sites) in the search field and then you get various results that are mostly useless, usually because of completely irrelevant keywords added by the contributor. With AI, at least if I tell it to create a dog sitting in grass I don't get 5000 cat photos like on most stock agencies.

And there really is no great knowledge or playing around needed. I am still not sure what some people here are talking about or what crazy AI image generation sites you are using that you make writing prompts sound like rocket science. Just describe what you want in a few words and in 90% cases you will get a usable result at once. Works for me.

But you said

Quote from: Her Ugliness on May 01, 2023, 09:16

I'd like to point out that, at least with modjourney, that is not necessarily true. The more prompts I use, the more of them midjourney simply ignores, just like it keeps adding stuff I did not describe and even the --no command will be ignored. Some people (sometimes purposefully) misjudge midjourney's ability to really create images based on very detailed descriptions.

Her Ugliness · « **Reply #17 on:** May 11, 2023, 06:20 »

Quote from: alan b traehern on May 11, 2023, 05:56

Quote from: Her Ugliness on May 06, 2023, 10:45
Quote from: Lina on May 06, 2023, 08:22
but clients who need lot of images don't have enough time and often knowledge to play with various prompts to get results they want.

Which is no different than using a stock agency. You enter what you want (just like with AI image generation sites) in the search field and then you get various results that are mostly useless, usually because of completely irrelevant keywords added by the contributor. With AI, at least if I tell it to create a dog sitting in grass I don't get 5000 cat photos like on most stock agencies.

And there really is no great knowledge or playing around needed. I am still not sure what some people here are talking about or what crazy AI image generation sites you are using that you make writing prompts sound like rocket science. Just describe what you want in a few words and in 90% cases you will get a usable result at once. Works for me.

But you said
Quote from: Her Ugliness on May 01, 2023, 09:16
I'd like to point out that, at least with modjourney, that is not necessarily true. The more prompts I use, the more of them midjourney simply ignores, just like it keeps adding stuff I did not describe and even the --no command will be ignored. Some people (sometimes purposefully) misjudge midjourney's ability to really create images based on very detailed descriptions.

Yes, and these things are not contradicting each other.

What Midjourney does splenditly is follow simple promots - EXACTLY the way a customer would enter them in a microstock search bar.
For example:
"Panda bear in bamboo forest". You get 4 perfect images of a Panda bear in a bamboo forest.

What midjourney sucks at is
"Panda bear wearing pink tutu dress with suspenders and summer straw hat with pink ribbon. Bear leaning on tree in a forest with violet daisy flowers. Copy space on rigt side, sun beams coming from left side."
Midjourney will ignore some of these prompts. The daisy flowers might end up being white, the suspenders might be missing, there might not be any copy space, the ribbon on the hat might have a different color or be misisng or the hat might be missing altogether.

People who claim they can have great influence on how exactly an AI image is supposed to look and that these images somehow were their "artistic creations", are greatly exaggerate their influence on an AI image - at least with midjourney.

However, for customers that used microstock agencies, AI generators can do the job just as well. They do not need microstock agencies, and once the word finally gets around, they sure as hell will not need former contributors entering prompts for them and re-selling AI images, but can do it themselves.
Because a customer would not have found an image showing exactly "Panda bear wearing pink tutu dress with suspenders and summer straw hat with pink ribbon. Bear leaning on tree in a forest with violet daisy flowers. Copy space on rigt side, sun beams coming from left side." in any microstock gallery anyways, and probably would not have searched for something so specific in the first place. And IF he needed an image like this, he would have needed to commission an artist to do it as a custom job.
Customers only enter very simple keywords in microstock search bars (you can see this for example with Dreamstime where you sometimes get shown the exact combination of keywords used to find an image) , often not more than 3 words. And for that purpose midjourney will give resuls as good as any microstock agency minus all the images with wrong tags.

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #18 on:** May 11, 2023, 11:38 »

Quote from: zorba on May 06, 2023, 04:14

I don't know how to tell this to an admin. (see the subject)

Good idea "Re: Generative AI - CHILD FORUM PROPOSAL " as subjects and threads are being created all over in other areas, and one Topic for AI might be a good way to keep things more organized and not scattered around the forum. Or as we've seen repeating the same messages and ideas, in various Subjects.

Maybe Leaf will see this. It's his forum to do what he sees as topics and organization.

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Author Topic: Generative AI - CHILD FORUM PROPOSAL (and a VERY BRUTALLY HONEST VIDEO ) (Read 4332 times)

zorba

Lina

Her Ugliness

Lina

Lina

Her Ugliness

cobalt

zorba

zorba

Lina

Lina

Her Ugliness

Lina

Uncle Pete

Firn

ouatedeP

alan b traehern

Her Ugliness

Uncle Pete

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