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Author Topic: Air Show, Red Arrows, Alamy. Need your advice.  (Read 4140 times)

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« on: December 19, 2017, 05:13 »
0
I took a photo at a free Air Show with a crowd of people watching the Red Arrows. Photos are as editorial on microstock but not SS and Alamy. I was far away from the air display. 3 planes flying straight from the left. Planes look rather black, no logo visible but their coloured smoke is. Visible is the beach, it was public land, the rock in the sea gives away the location. No visible face in front of photo. As I said I was far away. All people in front with back to camera. It's basically the whole depth of the beach full of people and in the distance black looking planes with the straight lines of coloured smoke. Alamy wrote to me yesterday asking if I would lift the editorial restriction. They have a buyer who wants it as commercial. I am worried that the Red Arrows know that it was them on the photo because of that coloured smoke. Should I lift the restriction? Should Alamy ask the Red Arrows for permission? I need your help fast please. Thank you soooooo much.


ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2017, 05:48 »
+2
For sure put the responsibility onto Alamy.
And don't fret too much: a lot of Alamy requests don't come to anything (by anecdotal posts here and on their forum, and from my own experience).
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 06:35 by ShadySue »

« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2017, 08:24 »
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Interesting I've had Red Arrows rejected even for editorial.

« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2017, 08:32 »
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Me too by SS. But you can't see that's the Red Arrows planes. On my image they look just black and not red.
Well, Alamy wrote only that they won't pay anything if I or the customer get sued.
Shall I remove the editorial and let them sell it as commercial?

« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2017, 08:35 »
0
Or is it better if Alamy gets permission from the Red Arrows?
Alamy wrote that a customer requested the image as commercial.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2017, 10:50 »
0
Alamy wrote only that they won't pay anything if I or the customer get sued.
I would not release it as commercial then unless you have a cast iron guarantee in writing that the buyer assumes all responsibility.
But it depends how risk-averse you are!

(If it's for a lot of money it might be worth your while to find out what the usage will be, then send your photo and details of the usage to the RAs and see if they'll give clearance for that one usage.)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 11:01 by ShadySue »

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2017, 11:10 »
0
Interesting I've had Red Arrows rejected even for editorial.
Alamy don't reject for IP as it's all on our responsibility, they only reject for IQ issues.

« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2017, 11:20 »
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Thank you. I guess a signed piece of paper from the buyer might be useless unless I let it check from a solicitor and I am not going to do that. Asking for permission from the Red Arrows sounds a good idea. I am really astonished that I got no help or advice from Alamy. Reading their email I felt nearly bad that I didn't want to remove restrictions. According to them others are having no problem in removing editorial restrictions. But I do because I remembered how SS rejected it as editorial because of the Red Arrows. At least they care if I get sued. Do you all have taken out an insurance in case you get sued? So far I thought that the agencies protect us by not accepting images for which we can get sued.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2017, 11:46 »
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Alamy have sent out blanket emails (which I didn't realise were blanket) telling 'me' that "your restrictions are restricting your sales", yet at the time that I got the emails all of my files with restrictions had the restrictions put on by Alamy when various entities contacted them*.

Now that it's available, I've put 'editorial only' on quite several of my RM files, rather than just 'no release'; but I'm very risk averse.

I suspect if you look at all your contracts, it will say that you assume full responsibility for content.

*there have been some very 'surprising' emails sent out from Alamy (actually from them) from time to time.

« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2017, 12:32 »
0
Interesting I've had Red Arrows rejected even for editorial.
Alamy don't reject for IP as it's all on our responsibility, they only reject for IQ issues.
They sometimes remove pictures on IP and Model release grounds.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2017, 12:52 »
0
Interesting I've had Red Arrows rejected even for editorial.
Alamy don't reject for IP as it's all on our responsibility, they only reject for IQ issues.
They sometimes remove pictures on IP and Model release grounds.
Yes, true, I was just thinking about on upload.
Certainly, if a company contacts them, they remove images.  Sometimes they get reinstated!

« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2017, 13:15 »
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Interesting I've had Red Arrows rejected even for editorial.
Alamy don't reject for IP as it's all on our responsibility, they only reject for IQ issues.
They sometimes remove pictures on IP and Model release grounds.
Yes, true, I was just thinking about on upload.
Certainly, if a company contacts them, they remove images.  Sometimes they get reinstated!
Yep I had some railway ones removed next day they had "clarified" with the company and reinstated...not that I ever sold them. ;-)

« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2017, 13:27 »
0
It really is up to the buyer to make sure it is used properly, but if you sell it commercial then it might imply that you have the proper releases and in any event you probably don't want to take a chance on getting sued.  If you had it only on Alamy RM then you would probably be OK.  Has it sold on the micros?  If not, then maybe you can delete it elsewhere and change it to RM on Alamy - hopefully then you would be covered.  I have insurance just in case, although hope to never use it.

I would ask if you can state in a contract that you don't have the releases and any commercial use is on the buyer, but not sure what you would need to make sure it would hold up in court.  Good luck!

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2017, 13:52 »
0
It really is up to the buyer to make sure it is used properly, but if you sell it commercial then it might imply that you have the proper releases and in any event you probably don't want to take a chance on getting sued. ... I have insurance just in case, although hope to never use it.
Would your insurance cover you in this case? Or would it only cover you if a buyer used an editorial file commercially without permission or if someone stole an editorial file from an editorial site then used it commercially (if it would be difficult, e.g. by country, to sue for the theft).

Brasilnut

  • Author Brutally Honest Guide to Microstock & Blog

« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2017, 14:02 »
0
I had a similar situation (Selfridges building in Birmingham) which I had as editorial and someone wanted to license it as commercial. I asked how much and it was for about $150 gross, so I went ahead and took the risk.

Makes sense to be careful, but also worthwhile to ask how much would be the license. There's been some reported cases on the Alamy forum of sales over $1k on Alamy...

« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2017, 20:36 »
0
It really is up to the buyer to make sure it is used properly, but if you sell it commercial then it might imply that you have the proper releases and in any event you probably don't want to take a chance on getting sued. ... I have insurance just in case, although hope to never use it.
Would your insurance cover you in this case? Or would it only cover you if a buyer used an editorial file commercially without permission or if someone stole an editorial file from an editorial site then used it commercially (if it would be difficult, e.g. by country, to sue for the theft).

No idea, to tell you the truth.  I assume it covers me for any type of lawsuit arising out of photography as long as I didn't break a law myself but have't had to test it and hope I never do.  I signed up for it a while ago and haven't looked at the wording of the policy since I learned more about what actually could happen - will try to do that before the next renewal.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2017, 20:44 »
0
It really is up to the buyer to make sure it is used properly, but if you sell it commercial then it might imply that you have the proper releases and in any event you probably don't want to take a chance on getting sued. ... I have insurance just in case, although hope to never use it.
Would your insurance cover you in this case? Or would it only cover you if a buyer used an editorial file commercially without permission or if someone stole an editorial file from an editorial site then used it commercially (if it would be difficult, e.g. by country, to sue for the theft).

No idea, to tell you the truth.  I assume it covers me for any type of lawsuit arising out of photography as long as I didn't break a law myself ...
Which would preclude lifting editorial restrictions where they were needed.


« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2017, 04:19 »
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I told Alamy that I want the Red Arrows permission and asked them if they would get it. Here is the reply from Alamy: Thank you for getting back to us. Alamy would not be doing this for the customer, however we always advise customers to seek permissions their selves. Also i am happy to tell the customer we can only lift the restriction if they agree to take full responsibility. 

Does this sound good to you? 

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2017, 05:27 »
0
I told Alamy that I want the Red Arrows permission and asked them if they would get it. Here is the reply from Alamy: Thank you for getting back to us. Alamy would not be doing this for the customer, however we always advise customers to seek permissions their selves. Also i am happy to tell the customer we can only lift the restriction if they agree to take full responsibility.

Does this sound good to you?

Yes, and I hope you get a copy of their agreement.
I wonder why they wouldn't contact the RAs, but we're  not going to be privy to that info.
Hope it's a nice, big sale!

« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2017, 06:51 »
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I wrote that I want proof first before I lift restriction. I guess it will be RF since iStock doesn't allow photos to be deleted. Do I see that right? And if I write to iStock to ask if they can delete it I will have to wait for 6 weeks before I hear from them.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2017, 06:54 »
0
I wrote that I want proof first before I lift restriction. I guess it will be RF since iStock doesn't allow photos to be deleted. Do I see that right? And if I write to iStock to ask if they can delete it I will have to wait for 6 weeks before I hear from them.
If you have it RF on iS, it will already be RF on Alamy, so the buyer will know that. I don't see from what you've written that they want any sort of exclusivity, so having it on or off iS will make no difference.

iS sometimes reply faster (or maybe that's a benefit of exclusivity[?]), but they're getting less helpful. Anecdotally, it used to be that people who requested images to be deleted got them deleted, but I read here recently of a refusal.  >:(
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 08:01 by ShadySue »

« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2017, 03:19 »
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Now I received the following email from Alamy:  The pricing is still under negotiation for this. 

I think if you are having this much concern then we can agree not to lift the restriction. I can only advise the customer to seek permission from the red arrows.

I can tell them that the only way they can have the image is if they take full responsibility, In which case you would not be at risk. 

The decision is yours. 

Well, I don't really want to be sued. Can I contact the Red Arrows? Does anyone know if companies charge for such permission? Alamy can't tell me how much customer is going to pay. They don't answer if they want to sell it RF or RM. I wrote to them regarding iStock. They make me feel as if I should just remove the restriction. Well, I would just remove the restriction because as I wrote before there is no logo on the planes and they are so far away that they look black. But I was told that it doesn't matter if we don't recognize them but that the Red Arrows can recognise that it is them. Does anyone know for how much money contributors get sued for?





« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2017, 03:32 »
+1
You don't have to do anything.  They can just buy it editorial and use it as they like at their own risk.  No flight crew will ever a: see it or b: come after you.  It's no different from someone just grabbing a photo off the net and using it, as you, the photographer, cannot control the end use and are not liable.  And if you can't see the trade dress, then they're just planes.

« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2017, 05:34 »
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Wish I would have seen last comment earlier. I don't get email notifications even though I have switched it on. I don't get any emails suddenly from the microstock group. I received another email from Alamy in which I was told not only to ask Red Arrows for this one time but to be allowed to use this image commercially later as well. I now have written to the Red Arrows myself. But I am telling you, I am not going to pay for the permission of they give one. So far I had only one sale on Alamy and only earned 9. While in the same time I sold 1000 images on SS. That might not seem a lot to you but I am not doing this full time and it hasn't even been 2 years since I started.


 

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