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Microstock Photography Forum - General => General Stock Discussion => Topic started by: unnonimus on May 21, 2018, 21:39

Title: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: unnonimus on May 21, 2018, 21:39
what does it mean for a person to be recognizable by his clothing?

This rule is widely misunderstood in the stock community but I am going to explain it to you.

First of all, when it comes to model releases and 'likeness', most federal governments do not have laws that stipulate a requirement for model release forms. In the US, at the federal level, this requirement would fall under case law. In most countries, you can film people in the general public view without their permission. In the US, each state will have different laws.

However, depending on how the photo is used, you might violate a law (editorial vs commercial). i

As an example, you have probably heard stories where someone takes a day off from work (to attend a concert or sporting event), and they get caught by their employer because they end up having their photo appear on the front page of a newspaper. the newspaper does not need a model release form because it is being used for editorial purposes.

For commercial purposes, you usually need the person's permission to appear in an ad.

However, sometimes you will have people in the photo or video whose face is not shown but are recognizable due to their clothing. What does this mean?

Some people can be recognized by their clothing, by the general public. Some examples are Michael Jackson, Larry Bird, Liberace, Kareem Abdul Jabar, Elvis, Punky Brewster, etc. meaning that if you completely obscure their face, you can still recognize the person because their clothing has become part of their identity.

Most people cannot be recognized by their clothing by the general public. Even if you can prove that you are the person in the photo, you would have to prove that the general public recognizes you. The general public is not your friends or family or people that know you intimately, the general public is everybody else. That means that complete strangers would have to be able to look at your clothing in the photo, not see your face, and say "that person is John Smith" and be right, solely based on viewing the photo. If they cannot do that, then the model cannot be recognized due to his clothing. since your model or actor is not known to the general public, you do not need model release forms simply because a portion of their clothing appears in a photo or video, as determined by federal case laws in the US in regards to likeness.

People that can be recognized by their clothing are always going to be celebrities or otherwise famous people, and must be known by the general public. The average model does not fall under this category.

99.9% of people in stock photos cannot be identified by their clothing.

self-identifying yourself in a photo does not grant you any rights.
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these people can be identified by their clothes. if we do not see their face, we still need their permission because their clothing has become part of their identity:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTGu_-7knFzdJvQMsFyP3vL-Em2psSryERcSSV2mMD8MVBtcZAp)

this group of people are dressing like Kiss, but they cannot be identified by their clothes because their clothing has not become part of their identity:
(http://www.rcnky.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/KYSS.JPG?itok=d-t3z_d2)
-------------------------------------------
elvis presley can be recognized by his clothes, even without his face we know who it is:
(https://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.12184791.1483804174!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/display_960/image.jpg)

this is an elvis impersonator. if his face is removed, we do not know who he is simply based on his clothes:
(http://www.bestliveentertainment.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Orlando-Elvis-Impersonator-1-pic-1.jpg)

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Can be recognized by his clothes, as they have become part of his identity, we still recognize him even without his face:
(https://keepitcivil.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/250px-fonz_pic.png)
Cannot be recognized by his clothes. he isn't famous or well known. his clothing is not part of his identity, even if he can self-identify himself. no model release form necessary by the laws of most countries:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61CMWTKVBTL._AC_UL200_SR160,200_.jpg)
this person's clothes do not identify him:
(http://www.oasisamor.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/popular-mens-dress-casual-young-asian-man-wearing-leather-jacket-.jpg)
----------------------------
can be recognized by his clothes as they have become part of his identity:
(https://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/celtics/photos/larry-bird-dribble300400.jpg)
cannot be recognized by his clothes, no model release form is required by law. his clothing might be the same as Larry Bird, but clearly it is not larry bird. his ability to self-identify himself does not grant him any legal rights. the general public does not recognize him based on his clothes:
(https://static.ruvilla.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/295x375/6e6106044ac4a12e2a1c015c1ebcda8b/m/i/mitchell_ness_353j-301-fgylbi_01.JPG)
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can be identified by his clothing as it has become part of his identity:
(http://www.geekchicelite.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/pee-wee-herman.jpg)

cannot be identified by his clothing:
(https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/0c3274b1-1058-494c-a359-85869dc8f773_1.14befa9f70fb66451668a8a9d1cc437d.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF)
------------------------
can be identified by his clothing (Gabriel Iglasies) because his clothing has become part of his identity. if we remove his face we still know who it is:
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1045693/thumbs/h-GABE_ALOHAFLUFFY_1-348x516.jpg)
(https://cdn1.thr.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/portrait_300x450/2011/08/gabriel_iglesias_a_p.jpg)
(https://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTQ0MTExNTA5M15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwMzExNjEyMjE@._V1_UY268_CR87,0,182,268_AL_.jpg)

cannot be identified by his clothing. if we remove the face we do not know who the person is:
(http://cdn.emgn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/fattest-celebrities-emgn-1.jpg)
-----------------------

can be identified by his clothing (flava flav):
(https://i.imgflip.com/19f7gs.jpg)

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michael jackson can be identified by his clothes, as his clothes have become part of his identity:
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/michael-jackson/images/f/fe/Michael_Joe_Jackson_Glove.png/revision/latest?cb=20140114073408)


jamie foxx cannot be identified by his clothes even if he wears the same glove. if we remove the face, we do not know who the person is:
(https://as2.ftcdn.net/jpg/01/49/36/37/500_F_149363753_LRBhSibM97XUrTz1qJOqCflySpk2gB9r.jpg)

---------------------------------


liberace can be identified by his clothes:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Kp2zBhBRVSI/hqdefault.jpg)

this person (barack obama) cannot be identified by his clothes. if we remove the face, we do not know who the person is based on his clothes:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51UR35Ift4L._SX366_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

this person cannot be identified by his clothes. he could be any of millions of people. being able to self-identify himself is not a right protected by law. even if the person could be identified somehow, the image does not require a model release form because the general public cannot identify the person simply by viewing the photo according to the laws of most/all countries:
(http://fooyoh.com/files/attach/images/1097/028/523/008/whitet.jpeg)

this person's clothes are not a part of his identity. no model release form is necessary by the laws of most countries. even if he can self-identify himself, it does not grant him any rights, because the general public cannot identify the person simply by viewing the clothes in the photo:
(https://www.ottawaheart.ca/sites/default/files/images/man-grabing-chest_0.jpg)

stock agencies that are rejected images based on someone's ability to self-identify himself are doing so wrongfully, and are not based on any federal or state laws.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: SpaceStockFootage on May 21, 2018, 21:53
Not again.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on May 21, 2018, 21:57
Grape Nuts are neither grapes, nor nuts.  Discuss.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: mindstorm on May 22, 2018, 01:18
Are you by any chance a first-year law student?  You seem to want to pontificate about laws that have ABSOLUTELY NO USE IN THE REAL WORLD.

If you were selling to the US government, you might have some basis for your argument. For the commercial world, you are nothing but a troll trying to confuse people who come here for information on how to approach agencies.'

Please go back to your law books, and quit trying to impress people (of which, by the way, you are totally failing...).
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: dpimborough on May 22, 2018, 01:28
Full of their own self importance spouting nonsense

And yet can not figure out what camera or lens they need for microstock so clearly
not a photographer in any way shape or form.

Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: unnonimus on May 22, 2018, 03:29
laws regarding likeness are very clear that a person's likeness can extend to his clothing if his clothing has become part of his identity, as viewed by the general public.

however, a person's likeness cannot be extended to his clothing simply because he can self-identify himself wearing those clothes.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: ShadySue on May 22, 2018, 03:48
Again, the OP being parochial regarding laws, and totally disregarding the point that agencies are perfectly free to make their own rules. Their ball, their game.

Yawn.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: unnonimus on May 22, 2018, 03:50
here is a legal excerpt that you can read and make your own determination:

http://www.gw-law.com/blog/news-publications (http://www.gw-law.com/blog/news-publications)

McCarthy at Sec. 3:2.
Invasion of Privacy – Misappropriation

In general, to establish a prima facie case of liability for invasion of privacy through misappropriation, the plaintiff must establish the following:

(1) Defendant, without permission, has used some aspect of the plaintiff’s identity or persona in such a way that plaintiff is identifiable from defendant’s use.
-----

so in order to violate someone's rights:'
- you have to use a portion of that person's identity or persona (such as Michael Jackson's glove). it is unlikely that a photo that contains a portion of a person's clothing is using that person's persona or identity. as explained extensively in the original post.
- you have to prove that the plaintiff is identifiable. note it does not say self-identifiable. it means identifiable by the general public.

think about it. these are privacy laws. how can someone be invading your privacy (prima facie case of liability for invasion of privacy through misappropriation) if you self-identified yourself?

if the general public cannot identify you, then your privacy has not been invaded, and it is not a violation of likeness laws.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: unnonimus on May 22, 2018, 03:52
you said: "Again, the OP being parochial regarding laws, and totally disregarding the point that agencies are perfectly free to make their own rules. Their ball, their game."

the agency's rules are based on misinterpretations of laws, and prevent you from engaging in commerce.

in addition, I am perfectly free to educate people about the facts in this matter.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: SpaceStockFootage on May 22, 2018, 04:06
They may be facts, but they're pointless facts when it comes to selling stock. Sure, it's great that people know the rights and the wrongs of copyright law (which pretty much everyone will have educated themselves on anyway, if they're making a living from doing so), but your post has no relation to what will and won't be accepted by the agencies.

I'm 90% sure that the agencies aren't misinterpreting the law, they're just adding a buffer when it comes to their liability. Copyright violations aren't always black and white, so usually best to err on the side of caution. I mean... let in an image that seems to be ok, but it's close to the line... make $1/$5/$10/$50 a year from it. Avoid letting in anything that's even close to borderline... avoid any chance of being complicit in a case that could set you back thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. Makes sense.   

And continually adding more and more photo examples doesn't make your post any more worthwhile.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: unnonimus on May 22, 2018, 04:26
SpaceStockFootage, you are ignorant about copyright laws and you are ignorant about your rights as a photographer.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: unnonimus on May 22, 2018, 04:29
you said: "avoid any chance of being complicit in a case that could set you back thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. Makes sense."

there are no lawsuits against stock agencies because someone saw a portion of his clothing in a photo made available for sale. I have searched. the concept of stock agencies being under threat of lawsuit is a false argument.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: dpimborough on May 22, 2018, 04:40
SpaceStockFootage, you are ignorant about copyright laws and you are ignorant about your rights as a photographer.

And you are ingnorant about cameras and photography there endeth the lesson.

Now do stop with your nonesense posts about psuedo legal claptrap
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: ShadySue on May 22, 2018, 05:18
you said: "Again, the OP being parochial regarding laws, and totally disregarding the point that agencies are perfectly free to make their own rules. Their ball, their game."

the agency's rules are based on misinterpretations of laws, and prevent you from engaging in commerce.
The agencies have regard to laws throughout the world, in microland, they can't be involved in having some files excluded from sales in certain countries.

It makes perfect sense to be more cautious than less cautious. It's known as 'making a fence around the law'. For example, if a hypothetical 100ml of wine would put an average person over the limit in a particular location, it would make sense to drink no more than 90ml (if you were going to drink at all: not wanting to open up that argument, it's just an example).

They don't prevent you from engaging in commerce. There's nothing to stop you from setting up your own site. And if you do, there's nothing to stop you preventing the rest of us from sellihng via your site.

Are you the eejit/money-grabbing barrack-room lawyer who represents Ineos?
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: ShadySue on May 22, 2018, 05:37
Also in most of your examples above, the clothing itself would need to be released, so the 'person' issue is totally moot.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: ShadySue on May 22, 2018, 05:49
in addition, I am perfectly free to educate people about the facts in this matter.
The facts are that agencies can decide whatever they want.
And I don't believe you have researched the law in every country where people shoot, upload or buy.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: unnonimus on May 22, 2018, 06:28
you said: "the clothing itself would need to be released"

no it wouldn't.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: unnonimus on May 22, 2018, 06:29
you said: "They don't prevent you from engaging in commerce."

if someone rejects your photo to be listed for sale, then you have been prevented from engaging in commerce with that photo and agency.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: ShadySue on May 22, 2018, 06:38
you said: "the clothing itself would need to be released"

no it wouldn't.

You're just trolling.
I'm out.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: SpaceStockFootage on May 22, 2018, 07:32
you are ignorant about copyright laws...

Why? Please point out any incorrect statements I have made when it comes to copyright laws. If I was a betting guy (which I am), then out of the two of us, I'd probably put money on me being the only one of us to have an internationally recognised certification in law.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: SpaceStockFootage on May 22, 2018, 10:54
And my rights as a photographer are dictated by law... you're not wrong, but my rights as a contributor to specific agencies are dictated by the agency in question... and there's nothing you and I can do to change that. You just don't seem to get that.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: unnonimus on May 25, 2018, 09:29
if you have a driver's license, or other government issued identity card, your face will be used to identify who you are. it would be unacceptable to present a photo of your clothing, such as your pant leg, to identify yourself on a government issued ID card. the clothing for most people is not part of their identity.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: niktol on May 25, 2018, 09:40
When I cross a road I don't look into a DMV handbook nearly as much as I look at the traffic. Saved me life a few times. According to me a semi-trailer truck going full speed always has a right of way. Those who disagree are free to post their protests and excerpts from driver's manuals on their tombstones.
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: Pauws99 on May 25, 2018, 09:53
if you have a driver's license, or other government issued identity card, your face will be used to identify who you are. it would be unacceptable to present a photo of your clothing, such as your pant leg, to identify yourself on a government issued ID card. the clothing for most people is not part of their identity.
This is the most irrelevant post so far
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: dpimborough on May 25, 2018, 10:08
He's a specialist in none-sensical posts  ::)
Title: Re: being recognizable by your clothing?
Post by: Pauws99 on May 25, 2018, 10:10
He's a specialist in none-sensical posts  ::)
It makes perfect sense though....just completely irrelevant ;-).