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Microstock Photography Forum - General => General Stock Discussion => Topic started by: click_click on March 01, 2010, 09:55

Title: Contributors revolution!
Post by: click_click on March 01, 2010, 09:55
I think we're going to hit a breaking point sooner or later.

Sorry, but today it has be Dreamstime.

The recent commission changes and this keyword reporting issue is just going into the wrong direction.

I've had images reported with perfectly valid keywords. Still I'm going forth an back with support to explain why I used which keyword.
For many of us English is not our mother tongue but still most of us are trying hard to keyword correctly.

Just because some low lives have too much times on their hands getting in the way of the long standing contributors by reporting their images for no valid reason.

I have to spend so much time to validate keywords that I can't get my regular work done.

Shall we just mass-email DT and let them know this reporting thing isn't working out?

If there is too much keyword spamming going on, then the reviewers need to check that and flag people who constantly upload invalid keywords instead of "engineer" this whole thing backwards.

What a waste of time.

Thanks for letting me vent.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: leaf on March 01, 2010, 10:16
I personally think that the keyword reporting thing on Dreamstime works well, although I can't say I have had any problems with it to make me frustrated either.

From time to time I have an image reported as having poor keywords and embarrassingly enough, they are right.  I fixed the problem and moved on.  If I do a search and see improper images I click on the keyword flag.  I think the reporting tool is very simple and a good way to get user generated review of keywording issues.

If someone is just clicking the keyword flag for kicks - surely DT would notice this behavior.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: cdwheatley on March 01, 2010, 10:31
I dunno, I had two images of beaches reported for the keyword "beach".
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: Lizard on March 01, 2010, 10:41
Yap , today I had an grunge border reported for "border" keyword , people obviously don't have nothing else to do
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: leaf on March 01, 2010, 10:45
maybe I've gotten lucky ???
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: mantonino on March 01, 2010, 10:48
I'm not a huge fan of keyword spammers but I think I preferred when you could make at least a small inference and didn't have to keyword with nouns so much.  

Right now its so bad - I keyworded a summer BBQ image as "4th of July" and had it rejected. Ok, fair enough.  Maybe I don't understand buyers but will they never type in 4th of July?  If they will, what image could possibly make the cut?  A red, white and blue flag is simply a flag.  If my bbq image is 'simply a bbq' than fireworks are "simply fireworks" and can't have 4th of July as a keyword either.  Same with flags.  So what would a buyer find under 4th of July?  Nothing iconic, nothing representative.  It's like saying you can't keyword a heart with "love, Valentine's Day, holiday" - if you can't key a heart illustration with those you make buyers change their habits from "Valentine's heart" to "heart, pink"  It's noun keywording and I dislike that part of the job.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: mantonino on March 01, 2010, 10:49
maybe I've gotten lucky ???

Nobody dares question your keywords - they figure you'll ban em. :)
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: Perry on March 01, 2010, 10:52
I just got my first flagged keywords.

A Blue grunge background for words "blue", "grunge" and "background"
and then a bucket of potatoes for the word "potato".

This seems to start off nicely... :(
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: corepics on March 01, 2010, 10:57
I'm off to a similar start in having images flagged. Photo of the Eiffel Tower flagged for - you guessed it - "Eiffel Tower".  Too early for me to call for a revolution, but an email to DT support definitely is an option...
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: Perry on March 01, 2010, 10:58
We really need an option to flag the people who flag for the wrong keywords!
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: NitorPhoto on March 01, 2010, 11:02
I personally think that the keyword reporting thing on Dreamstime works well, although I can't say I have had any problems with it to make me frustrated either.

I disagree and I disagree on the software design level. This feature is NOT well-designed. Just look at an example! I have an image: the EU flag is flying on the building of the Hungarian parliament. The keywords the reporter used where: "Hungary flag". He reported the image for bad keywording and from his point of view he is right, because it is the European flag not the Hungarian what he was looking for. But it is still a flag and it is still the Hungarian parliament. And I can imagine thousands of similar situations.
I'll not waste my time on counter reporting... if DT has the resources for look after all these reports than I do not mind. But I still think the computers are not here to produce us even more work but to make our life more easy.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: Pixart on March 01, 2010, 11:05
At least the one I had today was from the year 2008.  Maybe by the end of the year it will be up to date.

Is that what we are supposed to do - write to admin to defend the flagged keywords?
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: cathyslife on March 01, 2010, 11:12
Quote
Is that what we are supposed to do - write to admin to defend the flagged keywords?

For me, it seems the only solution. I had two flagged today but the keywords are locked and the date they were flagged is 2007. ?? I don't mind changing the keywords at all, but the system seems to be broken. I thought the process was: you get an image flagged. You go to the image keywords and edit them appropriately. At some point when reviewers have time, they will check. Once they are checked, they are locked. From that point, you can only change them if you email support.

And not being able to know exactly which keywords the flagger thought were wrong, to me, seems foolish and a waste of everybody's time.

I'm all for cutting down on keyword spamming, but I don't think this is working correctly.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: click_click on March 01, 2010, 11:37
Come on everybody - think about it:

It does take time both to report and to defend the whole nonsense. And it all started because DT failed to review keywords (PROPERLY) once images get inspected - this is not the contributor's fault who uses proper keywords, don't you agree?

It's fine if you have the time to constantly write support defending your keywords especially for the reasons mentioned above such as "Eiffel tower", "potato" etc. which is a total nuisance and in total, a waste of hundreds of hours from contributors defending their valid keywords but I don't have that kind of time.

How can this system be called effective?

Now DT has to pay additional reviewers (or their time) to review stupidly flagged images when all those additional costs could be spent on reviewing  the initial keywords when uploading and locking them.

Obviously keyword spamming has become a major issue at DT (although it's seen everywhere) so this is not fair to take it out on contributors who correctly keyword their images getting reported by some idiots who have nothing better to do than sending out reports all day long for 2 cents each?

Seeing reports being from 2007 shows that something is out of control there - take this as an understatement.

DISAMBIGUATION!!!
I'd rather disambiguate all of my 2000 images at DT again instead of dealing with this reporting ****. Then at least there is no room anymore for misunderstood terms like the Hungarian flag etc.

It's just beyond me how such a reputable company can create such a convoluted feature.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: sharpshot on March 01, 2010, 11:45
A photo of the word "treasure" flagged for the word "treasure".   Is there a bug in their reporting system?
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: mantonino on March 01, 2010, 11:46
It's been months since I had one flagged then I get one today?  Which among us is using the forum links to make .02 off each other?
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: click_click on March 01, 2010, 11:48
Everybody: When you get extremely strange reports please email support and tell them the member name who reported it.

They need to know so they can weed out their system and investigate!
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: Clivia on March 01, 2010, 11:49
It's been months since I had one flagged then I get one today?  Which among us is using the forum links to make .02 off each other?

I got 5 today, all from the same person. It does name the person who reported the error.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: cathyslife on March 01, 2010, 12:04
I had 2 this morning and 1 just now. I emailed the person this morning, and he was kind enough to reply and explain his reasoning. It made sense, and I would be happy to go back and fix the words, but the keyword box is locked and the offending word still remains. So I have to email support every time I get one of these? Wow, that's an incredible amount of wasted time.

I did email support this morning, asking why they are dated 2007 and I am just getting the flag notices now. That doesn't seem right.

Looks like going through each and every photo is going to need to be done.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: mantonino on March 01, 2010, 12:05
It's been months since I had one flagged then I get one today?  Which among us is using the forum links to make .02 off each other?

I got 5 today, all from the same person. It does name the person who reported the error.

Ok so who's Marck.  I ain't fraid of no ghost.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: donding on March 01, 2010, 12:20
Doesn't Dreamstime require 7 keywords? What if you have a simple photo and they don't let it through because you lack the right number of keywords. You have to get into more detail and sometimes use concepts to keyword them. This really doesn't make any sense. What next?
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: WarrenPrice on March 01, 2010, 12:27
Come on everybody - think about it:

It does take time both to report and to defend the whole nonsense. And it all started because DT failed to review keywords (PROPERLY) once images get inspected - this is not the contributor's fault who uses proper keywords, don't you agree?

It's fine if you have the time to constantly write support defending your keywords especially for the reasons mentioned above such as "Eiffel tower", "potato" etc. which is a total nuisance and in total, a waste of hundreds of hours from contributors defending their valid keywords but I don't have that kind of time.

How can this system be called effective?

Now DT has to pay additional reviewers (or their time) to review stupidly flagged images when all those additional costs could be spent on reviewing  the initial keywords when uploading and locking them.

Obviously keyword spamming has become a major issue at DT (although it's seen everywhere) so this is not fair to take it out on contributors who correctly keyword their images getting reported by some idiots who have nothing better to do than sending out reports all day long for 2 cents each?

Seeing reports being from 2007 shows that something is out of control there - take this as an understatement.

DISAMBIGUATION!!!
I'd rather disambiguate all of my 2000 images at DT again instead of dealing with this reporting ****. Then at least there is no room anymore for misunderstood terms like the Hungarian flag etc.

It's just beyond me how such a reputable company can create such a convoluted feature.

I'm already persona non gratis and have been told that most of my DT posts are negative ... but, things like this is the reason.  Click Click is exactly right.  It is the DT reviewers job to check the key words.  If they don't, admonish them, not the contributors.
And, as for biting the hand that feeds us ... I think someone misunderstands the relationship .. WE hired DT to sell OUR images.  WE are feeding them.  DT is taking a huge amount of the revenue.  THEY need to fix their own keyword review problems.

Sorry, click click.  My writing to DT admin only fuels the fire.   ::)
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: stockastic on March 01, 2010, 12:42
DT wants their contributors to clean up the enormous keyword mess for them, at no cost.  They've created a system that simply adds this hoop to all the others that contributors must altready jump through.   The only way they'll back off now is if this system creates too much work for DT itself. 
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: RT on March 01, 2010, 12:44
There is definately something up at DT, I've got 5 flagged images today all from the same person and all dated 23rd Dec 2007!!

What really annoys me the most about DT's stupid flagging system is that they've flagged the keywords they've obviously used as a phrase which when viewed together don't apply to the image, but the keywords I have in the file are not entered as a phrase and as single keywords they do apply.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: sharpshot on March 01, 2010, 13:23
Perhaps they are not telling us the word(s) that were actually flagged?  Some of mine might have inappropriate keywords, I was pants with keywords for a couple of years but the ones I see reported are the words that actually describe the image properly.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: lisafx on March 01, 2010, 13:59
I'm afraid I agree with click click.  90% of the images I have had flagged are for keywords that are obviously and provably appropriate.  It is time consuming to have to reply to all of them, but I am afraid if I don't the changes will be rubber stamped.   

And it's not just your usual competitors and wack jobs doing the flagging.  I have had three images flagged by Ellen Boughn and all of them for words that were not only applicable, but visible in the image.  

I seriously doubt Ellen Boughn has nothing better to do than run around flagging images for correct keywords, which makes me think there must be some sort of bug in the system...
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: sharply_done on March 01, 2010, 14:11
...
I have had three images flagged by Ellen Boughn and all of them for words that were not only applicable, but visible in the image.  
...

Geez, how embarrassing - I'll bet that's the last we'll see of her flagging keywords!
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: cthoman on March 01, 2010, 14:47
While you guys are having your revolution, do you think you can get them to let us add the word vector back in?
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: stockastic on March 01, 2010, 14:52
Scam.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: ellenboughn on March 01, 2010, 15:10
...
I have had three images flagged by Ellen Boughn and all of them for words that were not only applicable, but visible in the image.  
...

Geez, how embarrassing - I'll bet that's the last we'll see of her flagging keywords!

Lisa...send me a message on Dreamstime with the images and I'll either apologize...I was testing the flagging thing early on and probably did make some mistakes...or explain why I flagged the pixs. And Sharply...I don't flag much these days as I don't work with Dreamstime  but sometimes do when I search for photos there to use in my work.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on March 01, 2010, 15:14
Good lord, they tell you who flags your content?
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: click_click on March 01, 2010, 15:22
Good lord, they tell you who flags your content?

Yes they do and this is another reason why this system is flawed.

Talking about retribution...

Again: I don't know what they were thinking!
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: lisafx on March 01, 2010, 15:27

Lisa...send me a message on Dreamstime with the images and I'll either apologize...I was testing the flagging thing early on and probably did make some mistakes...or explain why I flagged the pixs. And Sharply...I don't flag much these days as I don't work with Dreamstime  but sometimes do when I search for photos there to use in my work.

Hi Ellen, Will do.  BTW, no apologies necessary.  I was actually illustrating the point that the system has some flaws, not assuming you intentionally goofed :)
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: cathyslife on March 01, 2010, 15:38
Quote
Good lord, they tell you who flags your content?

Yes and actually I think this is better. At least we know who we are talking to. Not that somebody can't just create any old account and have at it. If somebody isn't afraid to put their name behind the flag, then I think they are probably doing it constructively and not maliciously. When people don't have the b*alls to own up to who they are and know they aren't going to be held accountable, that's when the games begin. IMHO.

But the pics I have had flagged, I emailed the person and asked what their issue was, and they have been good about explaining what the problem words were. And so far, I have agreed.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: gaja on March 01, 2010, 15:46
I think some of the obvious mistakes are due to layout. It is quite easy for an inexperienced buyer to mistake the tiny little flag symbol and think they are buying/bookmarking the picture.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: lisafx on March 01, 2010, 16:00

But the pics I have had flagged, I emailed the person and asked what their issue was, and they have been good about explaining what the problem words were. And so far, I have agreed.

I agree it is much better that you can't just flag files anonymously.  I think that is one of the biggest weaknesses of Istock's Wiki system.

In my case I usually never hear back after explaining the inclusion of the keyword.  The times I have received a response they have agreed the word should not be removed.  In a number of cases the person was a non-english speaker and simply didn't understand the word. 

Personally I have trouble understanding why anyone would suggest removal of keywords in a language they are not very familiar with ??? 
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: lisafx on March 01, 2010, 16:09
I think some of the obvious mistakes are due to layout. It is quite easy for an inexperienced buyer to mistake the tiny little flag symbol and think they are buying/bookmarking the picture.

^^ this is an excellent point.

As a user of Photoshop Bridge and Lightroom I am used to clicking on a flag icon to select an image as part of a group.  This might explain quite part of the issue. 
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: click_click on March 01, 2010, 16:09
...Personally I have trouble understanding why anyone would suggest removal of keywords in a language they are not very familiar with ??? 

Because they can get 2 cents for each report...???  ::)

That might also explain why so many idiotic reports are made - just to try to scam the system.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: Jari on March 01, 2010, 16:37
I hardly never check my msg on Dreamstime but I did after reading this post. Is it enough to fix the keywords or do I have to let them know also? What happens if I havent fixed my keywords?
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: click_click on March 01, 2010, 16:50
I hardly never check my msg on Dreamstime but I did after reading this post. Is it enough to fix the keywords or do I have to let them know also? What happens if I havent fixed my keywords?

Just edit your keywords accordingly and then it's ok. Eventually the flagged image will be checked - AGAIN by a reviewer who then verifies if the suggestion was valid and if so you changed your keywords appropriately.

If you feel that the flagged image was reported in error, send an email to DT support asking for clarification.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: lisafx on March 02, 2010, 10:06
The point of this thread was brought home to me again this morning.  I have just had to waste a half hour responding to 50 keyword flags.  Only about 5 were correct.  

Some woman who clearly has no familiarity with the English language accounted for around 30 of those flags, flagging things like "chocolate" for chocolate Hanukkah gelt, and "blue" for blue collar workers.  Honestly, if English is not your first language you should leave the keyword flagging to others.

And one guy flagged an image of a Mexican child holding a US flag for the keywords "mexican flag".  You can see how that kind of confusion occurs and DT's keyword system does nothing to address this.

ETA:  Thanks Ellen for taking another look at the keywords and being nice enough to write back with apologies.  For what it's worth, one of the keywords WAS too small in the image to be clearly applicable.  And the other image was the case of the water machine with the coin slot, so I can see how it looked totally out of place in a search for slot machine.  :)
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: red on March 02, 2010, 10:30
I believe that some of the comments are coming from people who do not look at the descriptions of the images. They only search, find an image that does not match their search and they hit the flag. Using Lisa's example - the searcher was looking for a mexican flag and when the mexican child holding the US flag came up it obviously did not fit the search criteria so the flag was hit.

I think the flags are the problem. It would be better if the spam reporter had to go further and read the descriptions and keywords, not just hit a flag. They can report bad keywords using the "Report Bad Keywords" tool on the image itself where they actually have to list the bad keywords. The thumbnails with the flag below them are the problem, ripe for incorrect reporting as it is a fast thing to do that does not require the "flagger" to go further to the image to read the description and keywords  to see what the problem might be.

The words in the description are also entered into the search algorithm. Another example, if the photog lists something like, "photo taken in New York City" in the description and the image is of a coffee shop that could be anywhere, the terms New York and City are factored into the search. Someone searching for New York City runs across a photo of a coffee shop and flags it, and on and on...

DT has just taken the dates of all the comments off, they are obviously getting many complaints about really old comments. They let this sit for too long and are just now addressing these old flags. Not a good thing to do, at least without an explanation.
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: smitea on March 02, 2010, 10:31
i have had flags latley but most of them are from older images and warrent the flag most of the time  , that being said the ones that bug me are the ones that are supposed to be together like blue-cup,over-white ect......... ???
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: click_click on March 02, 2010, 10:46
Lisa, please send your issue to DT's support! They need to be made aware of this nonsense. You are a valid, reputable long term contributor who should be left alone in this flagging rampage.

I saw Lumaxart also vented on their message boards. I think they're getting some heat over there right now.

...DT has just taken the dates of all the comments off, they are obviously getting many complaints about really old comments. They let this sit for too long and are just now addressing these old flags. Not a good thing to do, at least without an explanation.

WOW, good observation! This is not a good sign at all.

Also, think about that almost all mentioned flags have dated back to 2007.

Can you imagine how many flags must be in the queue until 2010 ? ? ?

From my experience in the last 2 weeks and speaking to other contributors, I estimate to have every single image that I ever uploaded flagged within the next 6 months if it keeps going at this rate (not to mention that the amount of flags kept increasing over the last few days).

I dare to assume that the entire DT collection will be flagged within a matter of a few months.

Who is supposed to work through all these flags?
Title: Re: Contributors revolution!
Post by: leaf on March 02, 2010, 16:31
Sorry to jump in here so late, there seems to be two threads on exactly the same topic.  The other one has a more descriptive title and is older so the conversation can continue there
http://www.microstockgroup.com/dreamstime-com/incorrect-keywords-dt/ (http://www.microstockgroup.com/dreamstime-com/incorrect-keywords-dt/)