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Author Topic: Could 50 keywords be to many? Or if they are relevant its ok?  (Read 1966 times)

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« on: December 28, 2019, 13:08 »
+1
Could 50 keywords be to many? Or if they are relevant its ok?  I know that is the limit on the sites I use, like shutter stock, p5.   But is that the best thing to have?  All 50?  Or could search results be better by some chance if you just had 10-15?  Thanks


ShadySue

« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2019, 14:05 »
+1
Could 50 keywords be to many? Or if they are relevant its ok?  I know that is the limit on the sites I use, like shutter stock, p5.   But is that the best thing to have?  All 50?  Or could search results be better by some chance if you just had 10-15?  Thanks
Depends totally on the image. some may need 50 tags, some it's very hard to find ten relevant keywords.

« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2019, 16:11 »
+3
Well 'apparently' Adobe Stock search engine will penalize you for having anywhere near 50 keywords. They talked about it in the webcast some months back. My vague memory was them saying something like 30 is the sweet spot. I don't sell on Adobe Stock, so as often as possible I add as close 50 as possible. The thing is, you never quite know what keywords become most popular in finding any one of your images.

« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2019, 19:11 »
+1
Could 50 keywords be to many? Or if they are relevant its ok?  I know that is the limit on the sites I use, like shutter stock, p5.   But is that the best thing to have?  All 50?  Or could search results be better by some chance if you just had 10-15?  Thanks

I remember years ago reading a report that too many keywords results in poor positioning in search, the theory being that the more keywords you have the less importance is assigned to each word.  So if you have fifty, each word is only considered 'one-fiftieth importance' but if you have say fifteen each word is given 'one fifteenth'.  Obviously this theory varies depending on each agency.  But to me it made sense.  These days I use the smallest number of keywords possible, sticking strictly to the most important aspects of the image.

« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2019, 03:15 »
+1
Could 50 keywords be to many? Or if they are relevant its ok?  I know that is the limit on the sites I use, like shutter stock, p5.   But is that the best thing to have?  All 50?  Or could search results be better by some chance if you just had 10-15?  Thanks

I remember years ago reading a report that too many keywords results in poor positioning in search, the theory being that the more keywords you have the less importance is assigned to each word.  So if you have fifty, each word is only considered 'one-fiftieth importance' but if you have say fifteen each word is given 'one fifteenth'.  Obviously this theory varies depending on each agency.  But to me it made sense.  These days I use the smallest number of keywords possible, sticking strictly to the most important aspects of the image.
Like many theories related to agencies there is no actual evidence of this. Though its plausible. Personally I don't see the point of adding distantly related key words as a buyer likely wants images closely aligned to the keywords they are searching on.

« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2019, 11:07 »
0
Could 50 keywords be to many? Or if they are relevant its ok?  I know that is the limit on the sites I use, like shutter stock, p5.   But is that the best thing to have?  All 50?  Or could search results be better by some chance if you just had 10-15?  Thanks

I often struggle to find more than 15 relevant keywords. More then that and the less relevant they get is my experience. But maybe I'm just lazy :P

Noedelhap

  • www.colincramm.com

« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2019, 11:15 »
0
If it's just a tomato on a white background, then you'll have hard time finding more than 30 relevant keywords.

If it's a photo full of people doing all kinds of activities, 50 tags may not be enough for you.

ShadySue

« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2019, 18:09 »
+2
If it's just a tomato on a white background, then you'll have hard time finding more than 30 relevant keywords.
30!!!

« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2019, 22:59 »
+1
Looking at the keywords reported by SS and DT I think that for most photos only a few keywords are really needed for them to show up in most searches that are relevant for them.  Who knows what all is in the secret sauce of the searches though, but search position is almost everything, so basically we are somewhat guessing about a hugely important factor. At least at some times what the sites say is not what is actually true in the searches, and what works one day might not work the next. In general I'd say put all the keywords in that make sense and leave it at that. Certainly don't add any just to get to some magical number - unless the site has a minimum.

I have no idea how one gets to 30 keywords for a simple isolated tomato - but maybe I'm doing it all wrong.

Noedelhap

  • www.colincramm.com

« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2019, 06:21 »
0
If it's just a tomato on a white background, then you'll have hard time finding more than 30 relevant keywords.
30!!!

Somebody mentioned 30 as the sweet spot, that's why I took that number ;)

Let's try!
tomato, isolated, vegetable, berry, stem, ripe, juicy, red, green, white, food, ingredient,  raw, healthy, health, edible, diet, nutritious, nutrition, fresh, organic, natural, produce, background, photo, no shadow, single

27 tags, although I admit I'm really pushing it.

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2019, 06:45 »
+1
If it's just a tomato on a white background, then you'll have hard time finding more than 30 relevant keywords.
30!!!

Somebody mentioned 30 as the sweet spot, that's why I took that number ;)

Let's try!
tomato, isolated, vegetable, berry, stem, ripe, juicy, red, green, white, food, ingredient,  raw, healthy, health, edible, diet, nutritious, nutrition, fresh, organic, natural, produce, background, photo, no shadow, single

27 tags, although I admit I'm really pushing it.

No normal person searches for a red tomato isolated, using half those words, but of course I'd probably have most of them myself. We're like a bunch of superstitious pigeons getting random rewards and we don't know why. I mean, does anyone search for ripe, juicy, food, ingredient, edible, nutritious, nutrition, produce, or do they look for Tomato Isolated On White? With red or green or sliced or some modifier.

Be honest?

If you were looking for a sliced red tomato isolated on white, what would you type into the search? Hmmm? Most of the words we add are grasping for straws and maybe someone will see us, because, we added some obscure word, that no one searches for?

And you left off  ;) No one, copy space, neutral space, isolated on white, Solanum lycopersicum, nightshade,


Noedelhap

  • www.colincramm.com

« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2019, 06:53 »
0
If it's just a tomato on a white background, then you'll have hard time finding more than 30 relevant keywords.
30!!!

Somebody mentioned 30 as the sweet spot, that's why I took that number ;)

Let's try!
tomato, isolated, vegetable, berry, stem, ripe, juicy, red, green, white, food, ingredient,  raw, healthy, health, edible, diet, nutritious, nutrition, fresh, organic, natural, produce, background, photo, no shadow, single

27 tags, although I admit I'm really pushing it.

No normal person searches for a red tomato isolated, using half those words, but of course I'd probably have most of them myself. We're like a bunch of superstitious pigeons getting random rewards and we don't know why. I mean, does anyone search for ripe, juicy, food, ingredient, edible, nutritious, nutrition, produce, or do they look for Tomato Isolated On White? With red or green or sliced or some modifier.

Be honest?

If you were looking for a sliced red tomato isolated on white, what would you type into the search? Hmmm? Most of the words we add are grasping for straws and maybe someone will see us, because, we added some obscure word, that no one searches for?

And you left off  ;) No one, copy space, neutral space, isolated on white, Solanum lycopersicum, nightshade,



I know, if you're only looking for an isolated tomato, you won't use keywords like 'produce', 'organic' or 'edible'. But someone who is looking to download multiple food images, might type 'juicy fresh food' and come across our image and decide to download it along with other stuff. You never know!

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2019, 07:02 »
+2
You never know!

Right so we put in numerous silly, semi-related, or unnecessary words, in an attempt to trick the Gods of the search and get a download.  ;D

50 words is always too many, considering that 49 is the useful limit on Adobe.

How many is right? It's not a number, the answer is: Every word that directly describes the image or the concepts displayed within the image. No More

« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2019, 18:37 »
+1
Years ago before he went private I usually noticed Yuri always maximized his keywords to 50 in still images. I tried to do the same for years. But, now-a-days I have tried to limit the number of keywords I use to 25 to make them more exact.
Besides keywords, I do make sure I use as much of the title and description characters as possible. I've found up to 64 characters when they like a title and up to 200 characters for description seems to work best for the sites I submit to, although some have more or less space. I usually split up the description into 2 sentences.
When I looked up an isolated tomato on Yuri's new site the number of keywords for one isolated tomato was 18. So, maybe they have found that less is better?

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2020, 13:52 »
+3
Years ago before he went private I usually noticed Yuri always maximized his keywords to 50 in still images. I tried to do the same for years. But, now-a-days I have tried to limit the number of keywords I use to 25 to make them more exact.
Besides keywords, I do make sure I use as much of the title and description characters as possible. I've found up to 64 characters when they like a title and up to 200 characters for description seems to work best for the sites I submit to, although some have more or less space. I usually split up the description into 2 sentences.
When I looked up an isolated tomato on Yuri's new site the number of keywords for one isolated tomato was 18. So, maybe they have found that less is better?

Which sites still read title? Because Adobe reads that as the description I've started to remove that data. Maybe I shouldn't do that?

Right descriptions can be just as important for searches, especially the part that search engines pick up.

« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2020, 19:28 »
+1
If it's just a tomato on a white background, then you'll have hard time finding more than 30 relevant keywords.
30!!!

Somebody mentioned 30 as the sweet spot, that's why I took that number ;)

Let's try!
tomato, isolated, vegetable, berry, stem, ripe, juicy, red, green, white, food, ingredient,  raw, healthy, health, edible, diet, nutritious, nutrition, fresh, organic, natural, produce, background, photo, no shadow, single

27 tags, although I admit I'm really pushing it.

No normal person searches for a red tomato isolated, using half those words, but of course I'd probably have most of them myself. We're like a bunch of superstitious pigeons getting random rewards and we don't know why. I mean, does anyone search for ripe, juicy, food, ingredient, edible, nutritious, nutrition, produce, or do they look for Tomato Isolated On White? With red or green or sliced or some modifier.

Be honest?

If you were looking for a sliced red tomato isolated on white, what would you type into the search? Hmmm? Most of the words we add are grasping for straws and maybe someone will see us, because, we added some obscure word, that no one searches for?

And you left off  ;) No one, copy space, neutral space, isolated on white, Solanum lycopersicum, nightshade,

I give all my photos 50 keywords.  You never know what search word is going to bring a buyer to your photo. 

Dreamstime is the only site that I know of that tells you what a person was searching for when they purchased your photo.  That has been extremely helpful in knowing which words are most commonly searched for with specific photos that I take.

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2020, 10:39 »
+3
If it's just a tomato on a white background, then you'll have hard time finding more than 30 relevant keywords.
30!!!

Somebody mentioned 30 as the sweet spot, that's why I took that number ;)

Let's try!
tomato, isolated, vegetable, berry, stem, ripe, juicy, red, green, white, food, ingredient,  raw, healthy, health, edible, diet, nutritious, nutrition, fresh, organic, natural, produce, background, photo, no shadow, single

27 tags, although I admit I'm really pushing it.

No normal person searches for a red tomato isolated, using half those words, but of course I'd probably have most of them myself. We're like a bunch of superstitious pigeons getting random rewards and we don't know why. I mean, does anyone search for ripe, juicy, food, ingredient, edible, nutritious, nutrition, produce, or do they look for Tomato Isolated On White? With red or green or sliced or some modifier.

Be honest?

If you were looking for a sliced red tomato isolated on white, what would you type into the search? Hmmm? Most of the words we add are grasping for straws and maybe someone will see us, because, we added some obscure word, that no one searches for?

And you left off  ;) No one, copy space, neutral space, isolated on white, Solanum lycopersicum, nightshade,

I give all my photos 50 keywords.  You never know what search word is going to bring a buyer to your photo. 

Dreamstime is the only site that I know of that tells you what a person was searching for when they purchased your photo.  That has been extremely helpful in knowing which words are most commonly searched for with specific photos that I take.

You don't want 50 words on Adobe. If you watched the video or read the advice here, you only want 49 at most. I still don't know why people are so obsessed with having more words. If you read the words used on DT, that should teach you something about what words are actually used and how much time you are wasting adding irrelevant or useless words.

SS tells words used too (sometimes?)



and Alamy has some interesting information on searches. Alamy Measures:  https://www.alamy.com/Alamysearchhistory/contributorsearch.aspx

So you can add two more sites that you know now?  ;D

50 words is probably too many, most of the time. How many of the 50 words are actually something important or describing the image, for a potential download? Useless words can hurt the search and rank of your images, while good words that are actually used for images found and sold, will improve your image rank.


« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2020, 14:30 »
0
Could 50 keywords be to many? Or if they are relevant its ok?  I know that is the limit on the sites I use, like shutter stock, p5.   But is that the best thing to have?  All 50?  Or could search results be better by some chance if you just had 10-15?  Thanks

Seems a bit much. It would be more worth it to get down to about 15 of the most RELEVANT and LEAST USED keywords ... finding niches is kinda tough though.

ShadySue

« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2020, 14:46 »
+2
and Alamy has some interesting information on searches. Alamy Measures:  https://www.alamy.com/Alamysearchhistory/contributorsearch.aspx
With the bonus that Alamy Measures shows what can happen if you have too many keywords. Although their system can mix any word from a keyword, even splitting a keyword phrase, with any other keyword or word from the caption. Often, you can't do anything about it, as both words were truly relevant, or even highly relevant, but didn't belong in juxtaposition.
Example from a search result in my Measures from yesterday: Space artefacts. The photo in question was of artefacts, and there was 'copy space'.  ::)  (I suspect that searcher was quite disappointed!)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 14:50 by ShadySue »

« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2020, 15:12 »
0
Years ago before he went private I usually noticed Yuri always maximized his keywords to 50 in still images. I tried to do the same for years. But, now-a-days I have tried to limit the number of keywords I use to 25 to make them more exact.
Besides keywords, I do make sure I use as much of the title and description characters as possible. I've found up to 64 characters when they like a title and up to 200 characters for description seems to work best for the sites I submit to, although some have more or less space. I usually split up the description into 2 sentences.
When I looked up an isolated tomato on Yuri's new site the number of keywords for one isolated tomato was 18. So, maybe they have found that less is better?

Which sites still read title? Because Adobe reads that as the description I've started to remove that data. Maybe I shouldn't do that?

Right descriptions can be just as important for searches, especially the part that search engines pick up.

Shooting yourself in the foot my man ... the title is the meta title.

Edit: I stand corrected. This contributor simply used the document title to spam some keywords and the online meta title is indeed the photo description.

Edit, Edit: nvm. They're both the same on this particular image. Where's Mat?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 15:16 by DallasP »

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2020, 07:52 »
0
Years ago before he went private I usually noticed Yuri always maximized his keywords to 50 in still images. I tried to do the same for years. But, now-a-days I have tried to limit the number of keywords I use to 25 to make them more exact.
Besides keywords, I do make sure I use as much of the title and description characters as possible. I've found up to 64 characters when they like a title and up to 200 characters for description seems to work best for the sites I submit to, although some have more or less space. I usually split up the description into 2 sentences.
When I looked up an isolated tomato on Yuri's new site the number of keywords for one isolated tomato was 18. So, maybe they have found that less is better?

Which sites still read title? Because Adobe reads that as the description I've started to remove that data. Maybe I shouldn't do that?

Right descriptions can be just as important for searches, especially the part that search engines pick up.

Shooting yourself in the foot my man ... the title is the meta title.

Edit: I stand corrected. This contributor simply used the document title to spam some keywords and the online meta title is indeed the photo description.

Edit, Edit: nvm. They're both the same on this particular image. Where's Mat?

What I meant was, and I can understand how the question and answer could be confusing  :) Most agencies read the IPTC Data Caption field: Description, and use that for the image Description. Title seems to be ignored. BUT... if there's a title, and I upload to AS, that gets read, instead of the longer description field, which is ignored. AS uses the Title field for Title.



This just shows what Lightroom or Irfanview call the same fields. Note Document Title is not description!  ;)

So I've changed to deleting the "Title" field from images, so the "Description" field will be entered at Adobe. Description is read on SS, IS, DT, Alamy and everywhere else that I know, only Adobe reads Title and ignores Description. I suppose I could paste the same data into both fields and there I am? But the point is, they are two different fields of data.  8)

I hope that made things easier, but I'm never sure as the agencies have their ways of making "standards" more difficult sometimes. And if I didn't answer you, yes, Descriptions are very important as that data can be read by search engines, which could lead to having an image be found and purchased, from offsite, when someone isn't looking on a specific agency.

Back to the question: Do any agencies read BOTH Title and Description and use that data? It's been some time and since I only upload to SS, AS and Alamy, I may have missed someplace like IS that could be importing both?

ps to make things more complicated, if the Headline field is filled, SS reads that, instead of Title or Description



And last of all, here's the agreed standard: (which may be old now)



Have fun:  https://iptc.org/standards/photo-metadata/



« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2020, 13:42 »
0
If it's just a tomato on a white background, then you'll have hard time finding more than 30 relevant keywords.
30!!!

Somebody mentioned 30 as the sweet spot, that's why I took that number ;)

Let's try!
tomato, isolated, vegetable, berry, stem, ripe, juicy, red, green, white, food, ingredient,  raw, healthy, health, edible, diet, nutritious, nutrition, fresh, organic, natural, produce, background, photo, no shadow, single

27 tags, although I admit I'm really pushing it.

No normal person searches for a red tomato isolated, using half those words, but of course I'd probably have most of them myself. We're like a bunch of superstitious pigeons getting random rewards and we don't know why. I mean, does anyone search for ripe, juicy, food, ingredient, edible, nutritious, nutrition, produce, or do they look for Tomato Isolated On White? With red or green or sliced or some modifier.

Be honest?

If you were looking for a sliced red tomato isolated on white, what would you type into the search? Hmmm? Most of the words we add are grasping for straws and maybe someone will see us, because, we added some obscure word, that no one searches for?

And you left off  ;) No one, copy space, neutral space, isolated on white, Solanum lycopersicum, nightshade,

I give all my photos 50 keywords.  You never know what search word is going to bring a buyer to your photo. 

Dreamstime is the only site that I know of that tells you what a person was searching for when they purchased your photo.  That has been extremely helpful in knowing which words are most commonly searched for with specific photos that I take.

You don't want 50 words on Adobe. If you watched the video or read the advice here, you only want 49 at most. I still don't know why people are so obsessed with having more words. If you read the words used on DT, that should teach you something about what words are actually used and how much time you are wasting adding irrelevant or useless words.

SS tells words used too (sometimes?)



and Alamy has some interesting information on searches. Alamy Measures:  https://www.alamy.com/Alamysearchhistory/contributorsearch.aspx

So you can add two more sites that you know now?  ;D

50 words is probably too many, most of the time. How many of the 50 words are actually something important or describing the image, for a potential download? Useless words can hurt the search and rank of your images, while good words that are actually used for images found and sold, will improve your image rank.

I don't feel that having that many key words has hindered my sales.  If an image is good and in demand, it sells.  I have many images that are in the top results.
 
In addition, I don't spend that much time on keywording, so it's not really wasting my time to include them.  Nor am I obsessed....I just feel that you never know which word will bring a customer in.  All of my keywords are relevant to the photo.

« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2020, 18:20 »
0
So, I did a little research on my top selling set of photos.  There's about 12 main photos in that set that sell and they are all closely subject-related. 

Shutterstock only gives you the percentage of keywords used over all the downloads, so you don't really know how many times each word was used.  And they don't always give you any of the keywords, which is a huge inconsistency.  But I was lucky that all 12 photos did have key words and percentages listed.

Dreamstime also doesn't always give you the keywords used to find your photo, but I went through 20 pages to get the keywords to the photos.

Of those photos, there were 46 different keywords used to find them.  25 of those words were used more frequently (but it's hard to tell how much more due to the lack of info given).

Since I was just about the upload a few more photos to that set, I just checked the keywords and I definitely see where I want to switch up some of the words.  I'm still going with 50, but just not the same 50. :)


« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2020, 07:37 »
0
So, I did a little research on my top selling set of photos.  There's about 12 main photos in that set that sell and they are all closely subject-related. 

Shutterstock only gives you the percentage of keywords used over all the downloads, so you don't really know how many times each word was used.  And they don't always give you any of the keywords, which is a huge inconsistency.  But I was lucky that all 12 photos did have key words and percentages listed.

Dreamstime also doesn't always give you the keywords used to find your photo, but I went through 20 pages to get the keywords to the photos.

Of those photos, there were 46 different keywords used to find them.  25 of those words were used more frequently (but it's hard to tell how much more due to the lack of info given).

Since I was just about the upload a few more photos to that set, I just checked the keywords and I definitely see where I want to switch up some of the words.  I'm still going with 50, but just not the same 50. :)

46 different keywords used to find 12 related photos on DT? Do those mean sales or views? What are the # of different words on the same photos on SS?

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2020, 10:31 »
+1
So, I did a little research on my top selling set of photos.  There's about 12 main photos in that set that sell and they are all closely subject-related. 

Shutterstock only gives you the percentage of keywords used over all the downloads, so you don't really know how many times each word was used.  And they don't always give you any of the keywords, which is a huge inconsistency.  But I was lucky that all 12 photos did have key words and percentages listed.

Dreamstime also doesn't always give you the keywords used to find your photo, but I went through 20 pages to get the keywords to the photos.

Of those photos, there were 46 different keywords used to find them.  25 of those words were used more frequently (but it's hard to tell how much more due to the lack of info given).

Since I was just about the upload a few more photos to that set, I just checked the keywords and I definitely see where I want to switch up some of the words.  I'm still going with 50, but just not the same 50. :)

46 different keywords used to find 12 related photos on DT? Do those mean sales or views? What are the # of different words on the same photos on SS?

True it's frustrating when SS doesn't show words. I think it's the same on Alamy. Sometimes people aren't using words, they are searching categories? Logically how could someone find an image, without entering keywords? Well, many ways it appears, because they do.

Here's a tip on why so many different words might be used on DT and why some of mine were found using words that aren't in the keywords or title.



50 is too many, unless the subject is complex and has many, many, words needed to describe it. Most images can be perfectly defined with 25 or less words.

True though, placement does = sales if the images are good enough. Question I ask though is, if I'm first in a search that no one uses, how does that translate to sales and money? I could have Extracentrifical Force in my images and if no one searches the word, and I'm first on a page that only has my images, that will not translate to a sale.

I can be first on a page for something that isn't the main subject or concept of my image, just because I added words. And I won't ever get a sale, because the buyer is looking for images that represent what they are looking for, not something else.

What I think people should ask themselves, and I do, is "if I was a buyer, what words would I use to find this image?" not "do I have 50 words", that are half, not relevant or describing what's actually the subject and concept of the image.

Maybe that's just me, but I think buyers want to see what they are looking for, not something else, and if someone uses the most logical words, that would explain what most buyers will also use, not some convoluted logic that obscure and irrelevant words, will make more sales. More words does not = more sales.

ps do not use 50 words on Adobe, this has been covered, seems like that's being neglected. So I'll say, 50 words is too many, while 49 might not be. But I'll never advocate having 49 words, just to have as many as possible, because it's 49.

(clipped)

I also thought that when there are 50 keywords all keywords are flat vs 49 keywords or less, then keywords are weighted. Seems not smart. A/B testing would have solved this quirk. There is no need to assume someone is spamming if they have 50 keywords vs 49 if you just did A/B testing.

Anyway, these are just my uneducated thoughts.

Do other sites also assume that 50 keywords is spamming, and down rank your images?

https://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?action=post;quote=539016;topic=34889.25

Here's the podcast for anyone who missed it. I need to watch the entire cast for how to increase sales.  https://www.crowdcast.io/e/keywords-count-effective/register


 

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