Author Topic: Defending the Microstock Business? (Read 19181 times)

tab62 · « **on:** November 18, 2012, 20:53 »

Recently, I was blasted by another for photographer when I told him that my income is from the microstock companies. He told me that I am nothing more than a 'Penny Stocker' and have ruin the real world of photographers. And than ask if I was 'Polish' by origin because I work for nothing willing to take a nickel for my work! Rather than try to defend myself I walked away...

oxman · « **Reply #1 on:** November 18, 2012, 21:48 »

That is a pretty normal response from traditional photographers. They just don't realize that there are alot of nickels to be made from this if done right.

tab62 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 18, 2012, 21:50 »

I figure we are commercial photographers thus nothing wrong with our business. I would love for them to submit to iStock or Shutter and see if they pass the test...

velocicarpo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 18, 2012, 22:10 »

Typical response. In some sense they are right, in some they are wrong. Evolution destroyed their business and it is understandable that those who were not willing to move on are very bitter (I used to be one of those 8 years ago). Nevertheless even evolution sweeps away some good things too. Nowadays I live off Micro but although see its downsides...mainly I critisize (ATM lol) that it killed originality and art.

tab62 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 18, 2012, 22:16 »

like having no shadows in my pics lol

Floating objects on white- love it...

ouchie · « **Reply #5 on:** November 19, 2012, 01:25 »

Dont think u have any defence.
this applys here:
if microatock sites were farmers.....

Mr. microstock~~~~hey Bill would you like to help me harvest my 20.000 acre potato field, i will give u a 1lb sack of potatoes for every acre u pick?

dumb ass us~~~~~~~~~Geeeee whiiz yes id love to!!! (thinks to himself whiz ima gona b a farmer, Yiihaaaa!)

Mr. microstoc~~~~~thanks Bill for breaking your back bending over picking the potatoes out of the ground all day long. even though I'm taking all the risk operating the farm and your just getting potatoes for free basically. Id like to do you a little favor cause your sooo valuable to me. I'm gona give you these FREE 250 moomoo-cards but u gota pay the shipping! Think of all the ppl you can impress telling them you are now an official farmer. lucky you having a nice boss like me!

dumb ass us~~~~~~~~~~oh wow, thank you, thank you sooooo much! I'm not worthy.

us~~~~~~~~~~(thingking) what a nice guy that Mr microstock man is! you know what ima gona do, ima gona go out and buy me one of them thar new fangled machines (by Nikon that costs 6k) that u drive around in and it picks up the potatoes for you. now that i got a few sacks of potatoes, i can use some as a deposit! then next year i can make MORE $$$$$$$$$$!

Mr. microstock~~~~at home relaxing with a drink (thinking): man i shure did find a huge bunch of suckers out there in this world, theres one born every min. cant believe i got them to harvest my fields and only payed them a few potato sacks each. man life is good

dumb ass us a t home~~~~~~hunny give me some paper and a pensssiel, ima gona do some maths and figure out my RPR (return per potato) ima made operating this here new biznes. and how much more i can make once i buy that new shinny Nikon potato picker contraption. din i tellya baby stick with me ima goin places. I think ima ready to quit my job at the coal mine!!!!!!

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #6 on:** November 19, 2012, 02:15 »

Quote from: velocicarpo on November 18, 2012, 22:10

Typical response. In some sense they are right, in some they are wrong. Evolution destroyed their business and it is understandable that those who were not willing to move on are very bitter (I used to be one of those 8 years ago). Nevertheless even evolution sweeps away some good things too. Nowadays I live off Micro but although see its downsides...mainly I critisize (ATM lol) that it killed originality and art.

Good reply! ofcourse they are right, ofcourse micro has killed of the monopoly we once had. I just hope the Getty plan of slowly killing off micro will work out, good for us bad for the happy-snapper. When its done, the agencies I want to see left are DT and IS and possibly SS if they skip the subs.
Micro is a perfect plan for the hobby guy but terrible for the full time photographer and I dont think anybody can deny that, the money side is a differant story.
Micro is responsible for putting quantity before quality, resulting in bad photography which is attracting non-quality concious and bad buyers with a " give it to me free" flee-market attitude.

nicku · « **Reply #7 on:** November 19, 2012, 02:20 »

Quote from: tab62 on November 18, 2012, 20:53

Recently, I was blasted by another for photographer when I told him that my income is from the microstock companies. He told me that I am nothing more than a 'Penny Stocker' and have ruin the real world of photographers. And than ask if I was 'Polish' by origin because I work for nothing willing to take a nickel for my work! Rather than try to defend myself I walked away...

Yes , stock photography as a job kill the art photography. As a former Art/artistic photographer I feel that myself . But in majority of cases art photography don't pay my bills... so i adapted. For some photographers the personal pride is above the white envelopes that came with the mail ( bills).

nicku · « **Reply #8 on:** November 19, 2012, 02:23 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 02:15

Quote from: velocicarpo on November 18, 2012, 22:10
Typical response. In some sense they are right, in some they are wrong. Evolution destroyed their business and it is understandable that those who were not willing to move on are very bitter (I used to be one of those 8 years ago). Nevertheless even evolution sweeps away some good things too. Nowadays I live off Micro but although see its downsides...mainly I critisize (ATM lol) that it killed originality and art.

Good reply! ofcourse they are right, ofcourse micro has killed of the monopoly we once had. I just hope the Getty plan of slowly killing off micro will work out, good for us bad for the happy-snapper. When its done, the agencies I want to see left are DT and IS and possibly SS if they skip the subs.
Micro is a perfect plan for the hobby guy but terrible for the full time photographer and I dont think anybody can deny that, the money side is a differant story.
Micro is responsible for putting quantity before quality, resulting in bad photography which is attracting non-quality concious and bad buyers with a " give it to me free" flee-market attitude.

+1

ShadySue · « **Reply #9 on:** November 19, 2012, 03:27 »

Quote from: tab62 on November 18, 2012, 21:50

I figure we are commercial photographers thus nothing wrong with our business. I would love for them to submit to iStock or Shutter and see if they pass the test...

And when they pass (evein if it takes a couple of goes, as not all pro work is pixel-picky), they are your new rivals. Be careful what you wish for!

They are right, to some degree, but you can't turn back time. It was their eliteness and Old Boy's Clubbiness that spawned Micro, so they brought it on themselves.

oxman · « **Reply #10 on:** November 19, 2012, 03:34 »

With the development of cheaper digital cameras, the internet and jpeg formats it was inevitable that microstock would emerge and be successful. The RM model was impractical for most marketing needs. Trust me. I lived through it.

Quality still prevails. Those that shoot better work will prosper. My mentor pulls in about a million a year. Nuff said. Don't ask.

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #11 on:** November 19, 2012, 03:51 »

Quote from: oxman on November 19, 2012, 03:34

With the development of cheaper digital cameras, the internet and jpeg formats it was inevitable that microstock would emerge and be successful. The RM model was impractical for most marketing needs. Trust me. I lived through it.

Quality still prevails. Those that shoot better work will prosper. My mentor pulls in about a million a year. Nuff said. Don't ask.

Well you didnt live through it the right way then, did you? last month, out of 14, RM sales, 4, sales alone netted me close to a five figured amount. Good or bad?

Mind, having said that, thats after 20 years of RM photography.

Most people here havent really got the slightest idea of how to treat RM photography. Its like you plan a specific commercial shoot and you know beforehand that it will sell big-time, it might take you 2 or 3, days to get it right and all you have is one single shot BUT! it will sell, for sure.

sharpshot · « **Reply #12 on:** November 19, 2012, 04:39 »

If there wasn't microstock, there would just be the traditional sites that most of us couldn't get in to and free sites. I think the free sites would be killing off the traditional sites.

So microstock isn't all that bad, except that contributors have put up with commission cuts and they don't seem to sell many extended licenses at decent prices.

We're all to blame. The traditional sites were too much of a closed shop and didn't react fast enough to the digital camera and internet era. Microstock sites have in general been too greedy and contributors have stopped making a stand when their commissions have been cut.

oxman · « **Reply #13 on:** November 19, 2012, 10:26 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 03:51

Quote from: oxman on November 19, 2012, 03:34
With the development of cheaper digital cameras, the internet and jpeg formats it was inevitable that microstock would emerge and be successful. The RM model was impractical for most marketing needs. Trust me. I lived through it.

Quality still prevails. Those that shoot better work will prosper. My mentor pulls in about a million a year. Nuff said. Don't ask.

Well you didnt live through it the right way then, did you? last month, out of 14, RM sales, 4, sales alone netted me close to a five figured amount. Good or bad?

Mind, having said that, thats after 20 years of RM photography.

Most people here havent really got the slightest idea of how to treat RM photography. Its like you plan a specific commercial shoot and you know beforehand that it will sell big-time, it might take you 2 or 3, days to get it right and all you have is one single shot BUT! it will sell, for sure.

My point is from the buyers/art director's perspective as it relates to client budgets. The price point and annual licensing arrangement of RM was beyond the budgets for MANY small business's marketing programs. Then came the Getty and Corbis lawyers if an image ever got used for something outside of the original license. That would always send a shock through a company.

Then microstock emerged and ALL of my clients would tell me not to use the RM photos.

And that is after 27 years of buying stock photography.

cthoman · « **Reply #14 on:** November 19, 2012, 10:41 »

Quote from: oxman on November 19, 2012, 10:26

My point is from the buyers/art director's perspective as it relates to client budgets. The price point and annual licensing arrangement of RM was beyond the budgets for MANY small business's marketing programs. Then came the Getty and Corbis lawyers if an image ever got used for something outside of the original license. That would always send a shock through a company.

Then microstock emerged and ALL of my clients would tell me not to use the RM photos.

And that is after 27 years of buying stock photography.

I agree. Microstock didn't just include more contributors. It included more buyers too. That said, I think prices have and will continue to reach a more happy medium. Or at least, they should.

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #15 on:** November 19, 2012, 10:57 »

Quote from: oxman on November 19, 2012, 10:26

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 03:51
Quote from: oxman on November 19, 2012, 03:34
With the development of cheaper digital cameras, the internet and jpeg formats it was inevitable that microstock would emerge and be successful. The RM model was impractical for most marketing needs. Trust me. I lived through it.

Quality still prevails. Those that shoot better work will prosper. My mentor pulls in about a million a year. Nuff said. Don't ask.

Well you didnt live through it the right way then, did you? last month, out of 14, RM sales, 4, sales alone netted me close to a five figured amount. Good or bad?

Mind, having said that, thats after 20 years of RM photography.

Most people here havent really got the slightest idea of how to treat RM photography. Its like you plan a specific commercial shoot and you know beforehand that it will sell big-time, it might take you 2 or 3, days to get it right and all you have is one single shot BUT! it will sell, for sure.

My point is from the buyers/art director's perspective as it relates to client budgets. The price point and annual licensing arrangement of RM was beyond the budgets for MANY small business's marketing programs. Then came the Getty and Corbis lawyers if an image ever got used for something outside of the original license. That would always send a shock through a company.

Then microstock emerged and ALL of my clients would tell me not to use the RM photos.

And that is after 27 years of buying stock photography.
[/quotte)

Sure! but I dont see anything of that having anything to do with if a client wants to buy RM, with rights even worldrights for a specific reason?
I have never met an Art-director so far that have complained about an RM price for an image he needed exclusive and why should they.

Lots of people here keep mentioning "closed shop" etc, ofcourse and why not? show me any profession that isnt closed for the ones not educated for it? joke isnt it?
Micro shooters has got to be among the very few "professions" where you can get the tools for it but dont need to know how to use them properly, hence you have 100 million images out there, with approx 80% of total irrelevant garbage.

Good isnt it?

cthoman · « **Reply #16 on:** November 19, 2012, 11:05 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 10:57

Lots of people here keep mentioning "closed shop" etc, ofcourse and why not? show me any profession that isnt closed for the ones not educated for it? joke isnt it?...

I thought this was why there were bad mechanics, chefs, artists, musicians, businessmen, politicians, etc.

Microbius · « **Reply #17 on:** November 19, 2012, 11:11 »

A few months back my wife was seriously ill, we had to phone an ambulance for her.

I make more than one of those paramedics makes that came out to save my wife's life.

How much exactly do people think their work is really worth if you can still make that much by dedicating yourself to this job?

People who think micros have ruined the industry need to step back and get some perspective.
Then of course there's those who just suck at what they do and can't compete, so blame the business model instead of their laziness or lack of talent, but then that's always been the way, no?

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #18 on:** November 19, 2012, 11:12 »

Quote from: cthoman on November 19, 2012, 11:05

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 10:57

Lots of people here keep mentioning "closed shop" etc, ofcourse and why not? show me any profession that isnt closed for the ones not educated for it? joke isnt it?...

I thought this was why there were bad mechanics, chefs, artists, musicians, businessmen, politicians, etc.

weak argument and not the same. You know exactly what I am talking about.

gostwyck · « **Reply #19 on:** November 19, 2012, 11:51 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 10:57

Lots of people here keep mentioning "closed shop" etc, ofcourse and why not? show me any profession that isnt closed for the ones not educated for it? joke isnt it?
Micro shooters has got to be among the very few "professions" where you can get the tools for it but dont need to know how to use them properly, hence you have 100 million images out there, with approx 80% of total irrelevant garbage.

Photography isn't a 'profession' but a form of art. Proper 'professions' have technical qualifications because they can significantly affect people's lives like doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. Nobody ever died because they employed a poor photographer. Ask Leibovitz what bits of paper she has that qualifies her to take people's portraits?

No point in you being so up yourself. Microstock is a great leveler. It doesn't matter how long you've been doing photography, which agencies you once belonged to or how many art directors you know. You're only as good as your sales record __ which in your case isn't anything to write home about.

cthoman · « **Reply #20 on:** November 19, 2012, 12:00 »

Quote from: gostwyck on November 19, 2012, 11:51

No point in you being so up yourself. Microstock is a great leveler. It doesn't matter how long you've been doing photography, which agencies you once belonged to or how many art directors you know. You're only as good as your sales record __ which in your case isn't anything to write home about.

It's not even necessarily about talent or skill. It's about creating images that sell. Most creative fields are like this though. It's 50% skill and 50% marketing.

Besides, everyone knows that the invention of the camera ruined the illustration business, so way to mess it all up guys.

WarrenPrice · « **Reply #21 on:** November 19, 2012, 12:06 »

Quote from: cthoman on November 19, 2012, 12:00

Quote from: gostwyck on November 19, 2012, 11:51
No point in you being so up yourself. Microstock is a great leveler. It doesn't matter how long you've been doing photography, which agencies you once belonged to or how many art directors you know. You're only as good as your sales record __ which in your case isn't anything to write home about.

It's not even necessarily about talent or skill. It's about creating images that sell. Most creative fields are like this though. It's 50% skill and 50% marketing.

Besides, everyone knows that the invention of the camera ruined the illustration business, so way to mess it all up guys.

or, 10% inspiration; 90% perspiration

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #22 on:** November 19, 2012, 12:25 »

Quote from: gostwyck on November 19, 2012, 11:51

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 10:57
Lots of people here keep mentioning "closed shop" etc, ofcourse and why not? show me any profession that isnt closed for the ones not educated for it? joke isnt it?
Micro shooters has got to be among the very few "professions" where you can get the tools for it but dont need to know how to use them properly, hence you have 100 million images out there, with approx 80% of total irrelevant garbage.

Photography isn't a 'profession' but a form of art. Proper 'professions' have technical qualifications because they can significantly affect people's lives like doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. Nobody ever died because they employed a poor photographer. Ask Leibovitz what bits of paper she has that qualifies her to take people's portraits?

No point in you being so up yourself. Microstock is a great leveler. It doesn't matter how long you've been doing photography, which agencies you once belonged to or how many art directors you know. You're only as good as your sales record __ which in your case isn't anything to write home about.

Getting personal are we? couldnt restrain yourself could you? youver been a few years in micro and think you know it all dont you?
For starters, you havent got a clue of my sales record exept in micro, where Im a diamond at IS, same as you, which is nothing at all to be proud over and if you think I supply the entire industry under my personal name, youre badly wrong.

As usual you are all mouth, nothing else, same glib in every post, same hate towards IS in every post, been 6 years in micro and fling around with names like Leibowitz, etc.

who do you think youre kidding, go play in another playpenn will ya. or even better why dont you hit the ignore button! youre very good at that, arent you.

BTW, I know youre port, cant hide behind pseudos, stuff you see on an everyday basis.

Smiling Jack · « **Reply #23 on:** November 19, 2012, 12:28 »

And airplanes spoiled the train bussness

Smiling Jack

tab62 · « **Reply #24 on:** November 19, 2012, 12:34 »

I was looking for ways to defend myself when put in the situation that I was in but now I will just run like hell

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #25 on:** November 19, 2012, 12:52 »

Quote from: tab62 on November 19, 2012, 12:34

I was looking for ways to defend myself when put in the situation that I was in but now I will just run like hell

No youre op was perfectly in order. Just that you get some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro, nothing else and they will defend this industry even if they earnt zero money to the very death, simply because they dont know any other form of photography outside micro, walking around with blinkers really.

chromaco · « **Reply #26 on:** November 19, 2012, 13:11 »

Well, (since you're not full time) I would say this... My family will take a vacation on my earnings this year and I can spoil my kids with what's leftover. I'm doing what I love to do, and I do it in my spare time. I don't have to deal with deadlines, a boss, or PITA customers who are always trying to get something more and want to pay less and less for it. Someone else does all of the marketing for me and I get paid on weekends and holidays too. How's your job? and then walk away!

WarrenPrice · « **Reply #27 on:** November 19, 2012, 13:24 »

I can't stop giggling; two of the most egotistical members of the forum going at it. Keep it up. I love it.

cybernesco · « **Reply #28 on:** November 19, 2012, 13:39 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 12:52

Quote from: tab62 on November 19, 2012, 12:34
I was looking for ways to defend myself when put in the situation that I was in but now I will just run like hell

No youre op was perfectly in order. Just that you get some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro, nothing else and they will defend this industry even if they earnt zero money to the very death, simply because they dont know any other form of photography outside micro, walking around with blinkers really.

It does not matter if someone has only 6 years or 1 year in micro for that matter. Stock Photography wether it is micro or RM are forms of art of their own. Most people will understand the technical aspect of photography within a month. However, the art you get out of it, is not something you can teach. It is either you naturally become to be knowledgable in your art or you don't. Some people will never get it, others will be good at it and the few will be brilliant. It is the way how art works wether it is music, drawing or photography.

cthoman · « **Reply #29 on:** November 19, 2012, 14:00 »

Quote from: tab62 on November 18, 2012, 20:53

Recently, I was blasted by another for photographer when I told him that my income is from the microstock companies. He told me that I am nothing more than a 'Penny Stocker' and have ruin the real world of photographers. And than ask if I was 'Polish' by origin because I work for nothing willing to take a nickel for my work! Rather than try to defend myself I walked away...

You could always go with the Eminem lyrics...

Will Smith don't got to cuss in his raps to sell records
well I do, so f' him and f' you too...

Or walking away works too.

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #30 on:** November 19, 2012, 14:07 »

Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 13:39

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 12:52
Quote from: tab62 on November 19, 2012, 12:34
I was looking for ways to defend myself when put in the situation that I was in but now I will just run like hell

No youre op was perfectly in order. Just that you get some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro, nothing else and they will defend this industry even if they earnt zero money to the very death, simply because they dont know any other form of photography outside micro, walking around with blinkers really.

It does not matter if someone has only 6 years or 1 year in micro for that matter. Stock Photography wether it is micro or RM are forms of art of their own. Most people will understand the technical aspect of photography within a month. However, the art you get out of it, is not something you can teach. It is either you naturally become to be knowledgable in your art or you don't. Some people will never get it, others will be good at it and the few will be brilliant. It is the way how art works wether it is music, drawing or photography.

Denis. we are not discussing art or not. Its about defending microstock which is fair enough but hey, lets not go overboard with it.

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in micro and nothing else, the very second you even mention a world outside micro, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

Alln stock photography is a commercial cogwheel, nothing else and its as far from art as it can be.

CD123 · « **Reply #31 on:** November 19, 2012, 14:32 »

This whole issue is not just about the micro stock industry, this is about the computer and internet age which has changed thousands of industries, putting millions out of work and creating millions of new jobs. Payment methods and amounts changed and the way the work is done and the qualifications required.

You will always get the "old school" folk and the ones staying in tread with the new developments. There will always be points for and points against. Nobody will be completely wrong and nobody will be completely right. It is just evolution. Either you accept and grow with it, or you stick it out like the last dinosaur and maybe make a bit more in the end because you became "vintage".

cthoman · « **Reply #32 on:** November 19, 2012, 14:38 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 14:07

Denis. we are not discussing art or not. Its about defending microstock which is fair enough but hey, lets not go overboard with it.

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in micro and nothing else, the very second you even mention a world outside micro, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

Alln stock photography is a commercial cogwheel, nothing else and its as far from art as it can be.

Speak for yourself. I'm creating masterpieces.

Seriously though, I don't think something being commercial or even stock art prevents it from attaining the vaunted title of "art" (whatever that means in this day and age). I know many of my favorite artists did commercial art (posters, comics, cartoons, etc.).

cybernesco · « **Reply #33 on:** November 19, 2012, 14:41 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 14:07

Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 13:39
Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 12:52
Quote from: tab62 on November 19, 2012, 12:34
I was looking for ways to defend myself when put in the situation that I was in but now I will just run like hell

No youre op was perfectly in order. Just that you get some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro, nothing else and they will defend this industry even if they earnt zero money to the very death, simply because they dont know any other form of photography outside micro, walking around with blinkers really.

It does not matter if someone has only 6 years or 1 year in micro for that matter. Stock Photography wether it is micro or RM are forms of art of their own. Most people will understand the technical aspect of photography within a month. However, the art you get out of it, is not something you can teach. It is either you naturally become to be knowledgable in your art or you don't. Some people will never get it, others will be good at it and the few will be brilliant. It is the way how art works wether it is music, drawing or photography.

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in micro and nothing else, the very second you even mention a world outside micro, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

You indicated your disdain of micro by saying "some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro".

Therefore on the contrary to most microstockers, it is the other way around. Your sentence should therefore read this way:

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in RM , the very second you even mention the micro world, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

Quote

Alln stock photography is a commercial cogwheel, nothing else and its as far from art as it can be.

I disagree, it is an art on its own, I agree that it is a generic form of art but still art. What I mean as an example, after a session shooting a model. For each scenario, I may have 40-50 technically perfect shots, to choose from for which I will choose the best one based on the model posture, her/his smile, the appeal and how the image best represent the scenario I want to promote. And that is an art. How to recognise the best posture for a given scenario is an art. How to put an arrangement of fruits and vegetables together is an art. How to photograph wildlife is an art. How to recognise the best posture of an animal is an art. Regardless if an object is isolated or not, its placement still matter and is an art.

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #34 on:** November 19, 2012, 15:51 »

Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 14:41

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 14:07
Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 13:39
Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 12:52
Quote from: tab62 on November 19, 2012, 12:34
I was looking for ways to defend myself when put in the situation that I was in but now I will just run like hell

No youre op was perfectly in order. Just that you get some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro, nothing else and they will defend this industry even if they earnt zero money to the very death, simply because they dont know any other form of photography outside micro, walking around with blinkers really.

It does not matter if someone has only 6 years or 1 year in micro for that matter. Stock Photography wether it is micro or RM are forms of art of their own. Most people will understand the technical aspect of photography within a month. However, the art you get out of it, is not something you can teach. It is either you naturally become to be knowledgable in your art or you don't. Some people will never get it, others will be good at it and the few will be brilliant. It is the way how art works wether it is music, drawing or photography.

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in micro and nothing else, the very second you even mention a world outside micro, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

You indicated your disdain of micro by saying "some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro".

Therefore on the contrary to most microstockers, it is the other way around. Your sentence should therefore read this way:

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in RM , the very second you even mention the micro world, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

Quote
Alln stock photography is a commercial cogwheel, nothing else and its as far from art as it can be.

I disagree, it is an art on its own, I agree that it is a generic form of art but still art. What I mean as an example, after a session shooting a model. For each scenario, I may have 40-50 technically perfect shots, to choose from for which I will choose the best one based on the model posture, her/his smile, the appeal and how the image best represent the scenario I want to promote. And that is an art. How to recognise the best posture for a given scenario is an art. How to put an arrangement of fruits and vegetables together is an art. How to photograph wildlife is an art. How to recognise the best posture of an animal is an art. Regardless if an object is isolated or not, its placement still matter and is an art.

Well it seems we are approaching a stage where everything is called ART and therefore, ofcourse, nothing is art.

cybernesco · « **Reply #35 on:** November 19, 2012, 16:33 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 15:51

Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 14:41
Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 14:07
Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 13:39
Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 12:52
Quote from: tab62 on November 19, 2012, 12:34
I was looking for ways to defend myself when put in the situation that I was in but now I will just run like hell

No youre op was perfectly in order. Just that you get some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro, nothing else and they will defend this industry even if they earnt zero money to the very death, simply because they dont know any other form of photography outside micro, walking around with blinkers really.

It does not matter if someone has only 6 years or 1 year in micro for that matter. Stock Photography wether it is micro or RM are forms of art of their own. Most people will understand the technical aspect of photography within a month. However, the art you get out of it, is not something you can teach. It is either you naturally become to be knowledgable in your art or you don't. Some people will never get it, others will be good at it and the few will be brilliant. It is the way how art works wether it is music, drawing or photography.

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in micro and nothing else, the very second you even mention a world outside micro, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

You indicated your disdain of micro by saying "some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro".

Therefore on the contrary to most microstockers, it is the other way around. Your sentence should therefore read this way:

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in RM , the very second you even mention the micro world, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

Quote
Alln stock photography is a commercial cogwheel, nothing else and its as far from art as it can be.

I disagree, it is an art on its own, I agree that it is a generic form of art but still art. What I mean as an example, after a session shooting a model. For each scenario, I may have 40-50 technically perfect shots, to choose from for which I will choose the best one based on the model posture, her/his smile, the appeal and how the image best represent the scenario I want to promote. And that is an art. How to recognise the best posture for a given scenario is an art. How to put an arrangement of fruits and vegetables together is an art. How to photograph wildlife is an art. How to recognise the best posture of an animal is an art. Regardless if an object is isolated or not, its placement still matter and is an art.

Well it seems we are approaching a stage where everything is called ART and therefore, ofcourse, nothing is art.

Ultimately, what is appealing, is in the eye of the beholder and it is up to the image creator to create something that is appealing to as many prospective buyers as possible. What make an image more appealing than another similar one, is by how much the image clearly represent the wanted scenario. As human, It is the inexplicable natural appeal that we have for certain shapes, forms and placement that makes it art. If you have an appeal for something (other than sex and hunger) that you cannot explain technically, than it is art.

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #36 on:** November 19, 2012, 16:56 »

Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 16:33

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 15:51
Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 14:41
Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 14:07
Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 13:39
Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 12:52
Quote from: tab62 on November 19, 2012, 12:34
I was looking for ways to defend myself when put in the situation that I was in but now I will just run like hell

No youre op was perfectly in order. Just that you get some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro, nothing else and they will defend this industry even if they earnt zero money to the very death, simply because they dont know any other form of photography outside micro, walking around with blinkers really.

It does not matter if someone has only 6 years or 1 year in micro for that matter. Stock Photography wether it is micro or RM are forms of art of their own. Most people will understand the technical aspect of photography within a month. However, the art you get out of it, is not something you can teach. It is either you naturally become to be knowledgable in your art or you don't. Some people will never get it, others will be good at it and the few will be brilliant. It is the way how art works wether it is music, drawing or photography.

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in micro and nothing else, the very second you even mention a world outside micro, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

You indicated your disdain of micro by saying "some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro".

Therefore on the contrary to most microstockers, it is the other way around. Your sentence should therefore read this way:

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in RM , the very second you even mention the micro world, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

Quote
Alln stock photography is a commercial cogwheel, nothing else and its as far from art as it can be.

I disagree, it is an art on its own, I agree that it is a generic form of art but still art. What I mean as an example, after a session shooting a model. For each scenario, I may have 40-50 technically perfect shots, to choose from for which I will choose the best one based on the model posture, her/his smile, the appeal and how the image best represent the scenario I want to promote. And that is an art. How to recognise the best posture for a given scenario is an art. How to put an arrangement of fruits and vegetables together is an art. How to photograph wildlife is an art. How to recognise the best posture of an animal is an art. Regardless if an object is isolated or not, its placement still matter and is an art.

Well it seems we are approaching a stage where everything is called ART and therefore, ofcourse, nothing is art.

Ultimately, what is appealing, is in the eye of the beholder and it is up to the image creator to create something that is appealing to as many prospective buyers as possible. What make an image more appealing than another similar one, is by how much the image clearly represent the wanted scenario. As human, It is the inexplicable natural appeal that we have for certain shapes, forms and placement that make it art. If you have an appeal for something (other than sex and hunger) that you cannot explain technically, than it is art.

Well I must say you seem very concerned about the appreciation of art, etc. Many of my engineering images have graced the walls of the Rondannini gallery in Rome, Modern museum in Stockholm, Hamilton Gallery in London, etc. I have never looked upon nor called myself an artist. In fact the very word have never enterd my head.
To me, photography is far too young a media to even come close to being called art but rather an experession if you like, not art.

Art is for ones self and if others appreciate it then its a bonus. Somehow I dont think a true arty photographer would fraternize with us here in the micro sphere.
Now about the OPs defending the micro industry. How can anybody defend anything, in this case micro if thats the only form of photography they have experienced? surely you must also have experienced other avenues before you even think of responding.

Unless ofcourse you do what a certain self-proclaimed artist here does, just blast your mouth off without the slightest bit of evidence, knowledge or experience. BTW, not you.

JPSDK · « **Reply #37 on:** November 19, 2012, 16:56 »

Ok then.
Tell the phtographer, that it has not much to do with photgraphy.
It has to do with the internet.
Bussiness finds new ways these years. It is changing from local to global.
Things are outsourced and crowdsourced.
Information needs to be at an armes length, else it looses value.
So does customers and suppliers.
Its not enough to do woodcraft with handtools in Kansas anymore.
Neither to sell pictures in Kansas.
The market is global, both suppliers and consumers are global.

As for Microstock?
Microstock just exploits a niche, a niche that is open at a period of time and space. Like the railway tycoons.
At a place in time where supply and demand is growing, and where international legislation, and taxation has not followed suit.
Microstock will mature, when all the crowds is sourced and legislation follows. It is already happening. We had the tax forms a couple of years ago, unions and mechanisms to persue copyright will follow.

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #38 on:** November 19, 2012, 16:59 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 16:56

Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 16:33
Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 15:51
Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 14:41
Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 14:07
Quote from: cybernesco on November 19, 2012, 13:39
Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 12:52
Quote from: tab62 on November 19, 2012, 12:34
I was looking for ways to defend myself when put in the situation that I was in but now I will just run like hell

No youre op was perfectly in order. Just that you get some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro, nothing else and they will defend this industry even if they earnt zero money to the very death, simply because they dont know any other form of photography outside micro, walking around with blinkers really.

It does not matter if someone has only 6 years or 1 year in micro for that matter. Stock Photography wether it is micro or RM are forms of art of their own. Most people will understand the technical aspect of photography within a month. However, the art you get out of it, is not something you can teach. It is either you naturally become to be knowledgable in your art or you don't. Some people will never get it, others will be good at it and the few will be brilliant. It is the way how art works wether it is music, drawing or photography.

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in micro and nothing else, the very second you even mention a world outside micro, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

You indicated your disdain of micro by saying "some people and all they have done is 5 or 6 years in micro".

Therefore on the contrary to most microstockers, it is the other way around. Your sentence should therefore read this way:

Isnt it quite obvious that the people who started their photography in RM , the very second you even mention the micro world, well? you see what happend some posts further up. I mean its catastrophy, all hell breaks out.

Quote
Alln stock photography is a commercial cogwheel, nothing else and its as far from art as it can be.

I disagree, it is an art on its own, I agree that it is a generic form of art but still art. What I mean as an example, after a session shooting a model. For each scenario, I may have 40-50 technically perfect shots, to choose from for which I will choose the best one based on the model posture, her/his smile, the appeal and how the image best represent the scenario I want to promote. And that is an art. How to recognise the best posture for a given scenario is an art. How to put an arrangement of fruits and vegetables together is an art. How to photograph wildlife is an art. How to recognise the best posture of an animal is an art. Regardless if an object is isolated or not, its placement still matter and is an art.

Well it seems we are approaching a stage where everything is called ART and therefore, ofcourse, nothing is art.

Ultimately, what is appealing, is in the eye of the beholder and it is up to the image creator to create something that is appealing to as many prospective buyers as possible. What make an image more appealing than another similar one, is by how much the image clearly represent the wanted scenario. As human, It is the inexplicable natural appeal that we have for certain shapes, forms and placement that make it art. If you have an appeal for something (other than sex and hunger) that you cannot explain technically, than it is art.

Well I must say you seem very concerned about the appreciation of art, etc. Many of my engineering images have graced the walls of the Rondannini gallery in Rome, Modern museum in Stockholm, Hamilton Gallery in London, etc. I have never looked upon nor called myself an artist. In fact the very word have never enterd my head.
To me, photography is far too young a media to even come close to being called art but rather an experession if you like, not art.

Art is for ones self and if others appreciate it then its a bonus. Somehow I dont think a true arty photographer would fraternize with us here in the micro sphere.
Now about the OPs defending the micro industry. How can anybody defend anything, in this case micro if thats the only form of photography they have experienced? surely you must also have experienced other avenues before you even think of responding.

Unless ofcourse you do what a certain self-proclaimed artist here does, just blast your mouth off without the slightest bit of evidence, knowledge or experience. BTW, not you.
However I will give you this, in its generic form, yes! but then its more an art of trying to figure out saleable concepts and earning money.

JPSDK · « **Reply #39 on:** November 19, 2012, 17:17 »

It is not at all important to define art, neither to agree on it.
Its much more important to define "work". But thats another story.

Artists always think their works are art. That goes from pottery to litterature, and of course photography.

Doesnt matter what they call it.
It does matter if it sells, sometimes it does.
Even artistic photography.
But microstock photography sells better and more consistant.

Last week I had a visitor, who told me about product photography: nuts and bolts and that kind of stuff.
He said, yes I can see you can photograph products, but can you do product photography with all that it takes.
Then he explained.
I sort of knew already, it was not alien to me.
But, then I find microstock better, more fun, more free, and more a challenge to my creativity, to find pictures that hit.
Its fun enough to photograph a bolt and a nut, but its not fun to do a whole warehouse.

Now, guys, we are doing pop here. Pop has a place in the world. But it is not Bethoven and its not meant to be.
Different market segment, as the ysay. Apples and pears.

cthoman · « **Reply #40 on:** November 19, 2012, 17:26 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 16:56

Unless ofcourse you do what a certain self-proclaimed artist here does, just blast your mouth off without the slightest bit of evidence, knowledge or experience. BTW, not you.

Is it me?

JPSDK · « **Reply #41 on:** November 19, 2012, 17:29 »

Or me?

Clarige.. Say things directly, or keep your mouth shut. That kind of argumentation is called intrigant and mostly found among college girls with cellphones.

ShadySue · « **Reply #42 on:** November 19, 2012, 17:59 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 10:57

Lots of people here keep mentioning "closed shop" etc, ofcourse and why not? show me any profession that isnt closed for the ones not educated for it? joke isnt it?

'Not educated for it' is a total red herring.
As far as I know, Salgado, my all-time favourite photographer, had no formal photographic education.
Nuff said.

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #43 on:** November 19, 2012, 18:21 »

Quote from: JPSDK on November 19, 2012, 17:29

Or me?

Clarige.. Say things directly, or keep your mouth shut. That kind of argumentation is called intrigant and mostly found among college girls with cellphones.

Why dont you know? I am a Danish college girl from Nyhaven with a short miniskirt who is saying: you are not important enough to mention in this thread, so where did you emerge from?
Now watch my backside wiggle under my miniskirt. Tisk, tisk.

cathyslife · « **Reply #44 on:** November 19, 2012, 18:22 »

I have only done 6 or 7 years in micro. I have sold a couple of images RM. I got into micro so I could refine my photography skills and make money while I was doing it. And I have. And no, I have no desire to be a full-time photographer. Some people can go ahead and blame microstockers for ruining the business. Let's see...that means that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs ruined the typesetting business because before them, I made $75/hr (in 1974) because typesetting and graphics were a skilled trade. After Gates/Jobs, everybody now is a graphic designer because they have Office on their computer. And while we're at it, let's blame the cell phone companies for ruining photography too, because every Tom, Dick and Harry can now submit their cell phone pics and get paid for it.

There are so many professions that have suffered because of technology. I think the OP did the perfect thing...walk away. Because you will never win an argument with a person who refuses to change.

And by the way...there are M-A-N-Y "traditional" photographers submitting to microstock agencies. And how many people have quit their day jobs to do microstock full time now? The people complaining are the ones who don't want to progress. They should go work for Hostess or Kodak or any of those other companies who refused to get with the times.

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #45 on:** November 19, 2012, 18:23 »

Quote from: ShadySue on November 19, 2012, 17:59

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 10:57
Lots of people here keep mentioning "closed shop" etc, ofcourse and why not? show me any profession that isnt closed for the ones not educated for it? joke isnt it?
'Not educated for it' is a total red herring.
As far as I know, Salgado, my all-time favourite photographer, had no formal photographic education.
Nuff said.

Salgado?................... whos he? sounds like a Gyenocologist.

CD123 · « **Reply #46 on:** November 19, 2012, 18:36 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 18:21

Quote from: JPSDK on November 19, 2012, 17:29
Or me?

Clarige.. Say things directly, or keep your mouth shut. That kind of argumentation is called intrigant and mostly found among college girls with cellphones.

Why dont you know? I am a Danish college girl from Nyhaven with a short miniskirt who is saying: you are not important enough to mention in this thread, so where did you emerge from?
Now watch my backside wiggle under my miniskirt. Tisk, tisk.

Oh Chris, you where doing so much better as ClarigeJ than as LagerEek and there you had to relapse again. Leaving soon again?

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #47 on:** November 19, 2012, 18:43 »

Quote from: CD123 on November 19, 2012, 18:36

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 18:21
Quote from: JPSDK on November 19, 2012, 17:29
Or me?

Clarige.. Say things directly, or keep your mouth shut. That kind of argumentation is called intrigant and mostly found among college girls with cellphones.

Why dont you know? I am a Danish college girl from Nyhaven with a short miniskirt who is saying: you are not important enough to mention in this thread, so where did you emerge from?
Now watch my backside wiggle under my miniskirt. Tisk, tisk.

Oh Chris, you where doing so much better as ClarigeJ than as LagerEek and there you had to relapse again. Leaving soon again?

Chris?............... Think you got your knickers in a twist, or is it underpanties?

JPSDK · « **Reply #48 on:** November 19, 2012, 19:23 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 18:21

Quote from: JPSDK on November 19, 2012, 17:29
Or me?

Clarige.. Say things directly, or keep your mouth shut. That kind of argumentation is called intrigant and mostly found among college girls with cellphones.

Why dont you know? I am a Danish college girl from Nyhaven with a short miniskirt who is saying: you are not important enough to mention in this thread, so where did you emerge from?
Now watch my backside wiggle under my miniskirt. Tisk, tisk.

That sort of argumentation is called intimidation. Its popular among college boys.

CD123 · « **Reply #49 on:** November 19, 2012, 19:29 »

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 18:43

Quote from: CD123 on November 19, 2012, 18:36
Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 18:21
Quote from: JPSDK on November 19, 2012, 17:29
Or me?

Clarige.. Say things directly, or keep your mouth shut. That kind of argumentation is called intrigant and mostly found among college girls with cellphones.

Why dont you know? I am a Danish college girl from Nyhaven with a short miniskirt who is saying: you are not important enough to mention in this thread, so where did you emerge from?
Now watch my backside wiggle under my miniskirt. Tisk, tisk.

Oh Chris, you where doing so much better as ClarigeJ than as LagerEek and there you had to relapse again. Leaving soon again?

Chris?............... Think you got your knickers in a twist, or is it underpanties?

You are really struggling to hold your own with one, so you should perhaps consider dropping the multi personality thing. Already forgot when you got your personalities all tangled up in the forum?
Now take your little nickers of your head and behave again like a good litlle boy or they are going to put you back into the soft room again, CHRIS..

ClaridgeJ · « **Reply #50 on:** November 20, 2012, 02:12 »

Quote from: CD123 on November 19, 2012, 19:29

Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 18:43
Quote from: CD123 on November 19, 2012, 18:36
Quote from: ClaridgeJ on November 19, 2012, 18:21
Quote from: JPSDK on November 19, 2012, 17:29
Or me?

Clarige.. Say things directly, or keep your mouth shut. That kind of argumentation is called intrigant and mostly found among college girls with cellphones.

Why dont you know? I am a Danish college girl from Nyhaven with a short miniskirt who is saying: you are not important enough to mention in this thread, so where did you emerge from?
Now watch my backside wiggle under my miniskirt. Tisk, tisk.

Oh Chris, you where doing so much better as ClarigeJ than as LagerEek and there you had to relapse again. Leaving soon again?

Chris?............... Think you got your knickers in a twist, or is it underpanties?

You are really struggling to hold your own with one, so you should perhaps consider dropping the multi personality thing. Already forgot when you got your personalities all tangled up in the forum?
Now take your little nickers of your head and behave again like a good litlle boy or they are going to put you back into the soft room again, CHRIS..

Chris?........................Charl? short for Charlotte I suppose?

qwerty · « **Reply #51 on:** November 20, 2012, 05:15 »

I am the only one who thinks this is weird

CD123 · « **Reply #52 on:** November 20, 2012, 05:45 »

Quote from: qwerty on November 20, 2012, 05:15

I am the only one who thinks this is weird

Not to worry. Just a member with bad attitude and multiple personalities who left us with a big funfair, ridiculed this site on another forum and thought he can sneak back under a new alias without being noticed. But somehow the personality shone through and some of the older members caught him out. Was going quite well under the new alias, but unfortunately that seem not to have lasted too long.

But let us rather move on (the extra attention normally brings out the worst in him).

JPSDK · « **Reply #53 on:** November 20, 2012, 06:41 »

It has happened before and it will happen again.
In the early days of internet foras, at about 2000 or so, it was common enough that people changed aliases all the time. It could be rather confusing, but worst was, when many people changed aliases and mimiced a certain maybe destructive style.
Then it was hopeless to find out who was who.

This attempt is not so advanced and the net has matured much since the first days of being the loonetics playground.
Now IP can be traced and first and foremost, people dont bother with all the crap: they want real communication and real people behind the avatars before they listen.

noodle · « **Reply #54 on:** November 20, 2012, 07:08 »

sometimes I think this forum has become a soapbox for a few idiots

heywoody · « **Reply #55 on:** November 20, 2012, 07:08 »

Quote from: qwerty on November 20, 2012, 05:15

I am the only one who thinks this is weird

Nope

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